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Post by petch on Dec 28, 2021 20:01:54 GMT
Following some recent discussion over on the rankings thread, I'm giving something a little different a go to give us a chance to vote for our favourite books from the series again, to see how it compares to the results of Wilf's ranking thread last year. I'll be posting a series of polls with votes to be cast establishing our favourite gamebook from each FF author. The winning book from each poll will be entered into one final poll at the end where the vote will be to establish our favourite overall book from the series. Can Slaves of the Abyss retain its crown as our community's pick for the best Fighting Fantasy book? A few notes before I begin on how I intend to run this: - Co-authored books present a bit of a problem here, and there isn't really an elegant solution. I've decided to go with this: where a book has been co-authored by writers who have both written more than one book (eg The Warlock of Firetop Mountain), that book will appear as a poll option for both writers. However where a book has been co-authored by someone who has only co-written a book (eg Steve Williams), their books will only be included in the one poll, alongside their writing partner's solo efforts. This solution has an outlier in the case of Jamie Thomson, who has co-written with two different partners - however as this only affects 3 books overall I'll include all three in one poll. - I'll also run a poll for the best of the five 'one book wonder' efforts. - Any polls that end in ties will result in all tied winners going through to the final poll. - One vote per person, per poll. Vote for your favourite! I'm kicking things off with the vote for the best book from Fighting Fantasy's most prolific author Ian Livingstone. Poll closes at 10pm Friday. |
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Post by CharlesX on Dec 28, 2021 20:21:23 GMT
You aren't pulling any punches letting people cast a single vote, no star system/1-10.
I like TOC.
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Post by terrysalt on Dec 29, 2021 4:51:20 GMT
I have fond memories of Temple of Terror which I quite liked as a kid so that got my vote. Of the others, City of Thieves and Deathtrap Dungeons are standouts. After Temple, the nostalgia goggles come off and I find it a lot harder to be enthused about his books.
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Post by misomiso on Dec 29, 2021 9:46:57 GMT
I think Deathtrap Dungeon is probably the best gamebook ever written; the advantage it has is similar to the 'Tomb of Horrors' adventure for DnD, in that because it is 'Meta', ie about a Dungeon designed to kill you, he can be very inventive and does not need to worry about consistency of design etc.
Having said that, City of Thieves is perhaps his best written adventure and is incredible enjoyable, and Forest of Doom is his most innovative.
Although I am a big fan of Ian, I do think he has lost his way in some of his later entries. His 'middle year' books all had something going for them, but Eye of the Dragon onwards are all just not great at all.
Hopefully 2022 will be a return to form!
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Post by petch on Dec 29, 2021 15:10:52 GMT
You aren't pulling any punches letting people cast a single vote, no star system/1-10. I like TOC. Yeah, this isn't intended to be anything like as rigorous as the rankings thread was, which allowed for shade. This is neither trying to update or replace that thread; it's a much quicker bit of fun, and am just looking for favourites. It might be interesting to see what effect the different voting mechanics here have on the result in comparison to the rankings thread, though. Let's take the winner, Slaves of the Abyss. It's a fair assumption that that book is pretty much universally admired by the community here, with everyone scoring it highly enough to allow it to finish top of the rankings. However, how many people here would actually name it as their favourite FF book? Ditto, let's see how the favourite book from each author in these polls compare to their highest-scoring books in the rankings thread. So far, not a lot of difference, with Ian's two highest books in the rankings thread Deathtrap Dungeon and City of Thieves dominating the votes here...but it is early days! |
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Post by The Count on Dec 29, 2021 16:01:39 GMT
I voted for Temple of Terror as that is my favourite.
However, it is obvious that the overrated DD will win this round.
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Post by nathanh on Dec 30, 2021 19:45:02 GMT
I think I like Deathtrap Dungeon the best overall, even if it isn't the most fun to do a proper by-the-rules runthrough for. I think if City of Thieves gave the armour +2 attack strength rather than +2 skill it might be a contender though.
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Post by CharlesX on Dec 30, 2021 20:13:11 GMT
Very surprised Island hasn't got any votes and moderately surprised Warlock hasn't got any votes. I think Island is objectively really good, and better than Trial, but the poll is my favourite, not best.
I don't think I would vote for Crypt before most other Livingstone works but its action-packed and amazing if you can overlook the difficulty level.
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kieran
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Post by kieran on Dec 30, 2021 21:32:35 GMT
Very surprised Island hasn't got any votes and moderately surprised Warlock hasn't got any votes. I think Island is objectively really good, and better than Trial, but the poll is my favourite, not best. I suppose while most of us like Island, it's just not any of our absolute favourites. |
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Post by daredevil123 on Dec 30, 2021 22:05:47 GMT
I'm surprised Deathtrap Dungeon is beating City of Thieves so easily. I voted for Deathtrap, but I think the two are very close in quality.
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Post by terrysalt on Dec 30, 2021 23:26:15 GMT
If it was just between those two, I'd go City. I was between City and Temple for which one I'd vote for.
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Post by dragonwarrior8 on Dec 30, 2021 23:38:45 GMT
I'm surprised Deathtrap Dungeon is beating City of Thieves so easily. I voted for Deathtrap, but I think the two are very close in quality. Can only speak for myself of course but for me the endgame of City of Thieves brings it down a bit. If that had been done better I might have them neck and neck. |
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Post by daredevil123 on Dec 30, 2021 23:55:36 GMT
I'm surprised Deathtrap Dungeon is beating City of Thieves so easily. I voted for Deathtrap, but I think the two are very close in quality. Can only speak for myself of course but for me the endgame of City of Thieves brings it down a bit. If that had been done better I might have them neck and neck. I think everyone agrees City of Thieves's endgame is its weakest part, what with the Skill 11 Moon Dog and having to randomly choose the correct ingredients. It's largely why I ultimately voted for Deathtrap. |
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Post by The Count on Dec 31, 2021 0:24:48 GMT
Can only speak for myself of course but for me the endgame of City of Thieves brings it down a bit. If that had been done better I might have them neck and neck. I think everyone agrees City of Thieves's endgame is its weakest part, what with the Skill 11 Moon Dog and having to randomly choose the correct ingredients. It's largely why I ultimately voted for Deathtrap. The endgame of City is better than that of DD - one Skill 11 enemy and a random selection of 2 from 3 (where the choice is actually obvious if you think about it) against: Lose 1 or 3 Skill to try to get an item that might be of help If you have another item, test luck to use both, if you don't have this item or fail the luck test, face a Skill 12 enemy with potential Stamina loss just before this - if you do pass the luck test, you miss the chance to regain 1 of your 1 or 3 Skill points and potentially get another penalty later. Skill 11 enemy, with another potential 1 Skill loss just before, so you could be on -4 Skill here... Another Skill 12 enemy that will kill you outright if you don't have another item Yet another Skill 11 enemy that you will lose more stamina against if you weren't unlucky against the pit fiend and tried to avoid stamina loss earlier Then a random combination of 3 items in a specific order that is purely guesswork... And yet those that praise DD seem to have issues with the similar scenarios in Crypt |
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Post by dragonwarrior8 on Dec 31, 2021 2:26:37 GMT
I think everyone agrees City of Thieves's endgame is its weakest part, what with the Skill 11 Moon Dog and having to randomly choose the correct ingredients. It's largely why I ultimately voted for Deathtrap. The endgame of City is better than that of DD - one Skill 11 enemy and a random selection of 2 from 3 (where the choice is actually obvious if you think about it) against: Lose 1 or 3 Skill to try to get an item that might be of help If you have another item, test luck to use both, if you don't have this item or fail the luck test, face a Skill 12 enemy with potential Stamina loss just before this - if you do pass the luck test, you miss the chance to regain 1 of your 1 or 3 Skill points and potentially get another penalty later. Skill 11 enemy, with another potential 1 Skill loss just before, so you could be on -4 Skill here... Another Skill 12 enemy that will kill you outright if you don't have another item Yet another Skill 11 enemy that you will lose more stamina against if you weren't unlucky against the pit fiend and tried to avoid stamina loss earlier Then a random combination of 3 items in a specific order that is purely guesswork... And yet those that praise DD seem to have issues with the similar scenarios in Crypt At least if you guess wrong in the gem combination its not necessarily instant death. And lets not forget that City of Thieves comes down to a do-or-die Luck test in addition to that. I am curious though about the obvious ingredients choice? |
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Post by terrysalt on Dec 31, 2021 7:26:17 GMT
I think everyone agrees City of Thieves's endgame is its weakest part, what with the Skill 11 Moon Dog and having to randomly choose the correct ingredients. It's largely why I ultimately voted for Deathtrap. The endgame of City is better than that of DD - one Skill 11 enemy and a random selection of 2 from 3 (where the choice is actually obvious if you think about it) against: Lose 1 or 3 Skill to try to get an item that might be of help If you have another item, test luck to use both, if you don't have this item or fail the luck test, face a Skill 12 enemy with potential Stamina loss just before this - if you do pass the luck test, you miss the chance to regain 1 of your 1 or 3 Skill points and potentially get another penalty later. Skill 11 enemy, with another potential 1 Skill loss just before, so you could be on -4 Skill here... Another Skill 12 enemy that will kill you outright if you don't have another item Yet another Skill 11 enemy that you will lose more stamina against if you weren't unlucky against the pit fiend and tried to avoid stamina loss earlier Then a random combination of 3 items in a specific order that is purely guesswork... And yet those that praise DD seem to have issues with the similar scenarios in Crypt Deathtrap's gameplay is nowhere near as broken as Crypt's but it has a lot of the same problems, just to a lesser degree. As for why people don't hold that against the book, I think it gets a pass because the premise explains the brokenness. This is a dungeon specifically crafted to kill everyone who enters it, it's not MEANT to be fair. I still find it to be the wrong kind of difficulty though and would rate the book a lot higher if you could actually use more strategy than just "roll the dice really well" to get through it. |
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Post by misomiso on Dec 31, 2021 8:00:46 GMT
Yes it's the 'Meta' breaking of Deathtrap of being a dungeon designed to be a puzzle that makes it stands out.
However City of Thieves is the better written book I think.
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Post by linflas on Dec 31, 2021 9:04:57 GMT
Voted City.
My preference goes to a good story/background rather than a good.. well... pure game. The only story moment in DD is the short collaboration with Throm.
After Forest, City is imho the first book that introduced a real background/geography.
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Post by vastariner on Dec 31, 2021 14:07:23 GMT
At least if you guess wrong in the gem combination its not necessarily instant death. And lets not forget that City of Thieves comes down to a do-or-die Luck test in addition to that. I am curious though about the obvious ingredients choice? The way I see it...
...you have to crush two ingredients together to make a compound powder. A lotus flower and hag's hair are easy to crush. Ever tried to crush a pearl?
...but that might be making a virtue out of a necessity.
Plus I reckon that, if you only have 2 of the 3 ingredients, you ought to be allowed to take a punt on the remainder of the adventure, just in case.
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kieran
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Post by kieran on Dec 31, 2021 14:41:56 GMT
...you have to crush two ingredients together to make a compound powder. A lotus flower and hag's hair are easy to crush. Ever tried to crush a pearl? That was my logic too - not sure if it really was what Ian intended but made sense to me at the time anyway! |
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Post by The Count on Dec 31, 2021 15:26:04 GMT
At least if you guess wrong in the gem combination its not necessarily instant death. And lets not forget that City of Thieves comes down to a do-or-die Luck test in addition to that. I am curious though about the obvious ingredients choice? The way I see it... ...you have to crush two ingredients together to make a compound powder. A lotus flower and hag's hair are easy to crush. Ever tried to crush a pearl? ...but that might be making a virtue out of a necessity. This. Although it is in a different, later book and may not have been the original intention In Demons of the Deep, black pearls are used to animate the undead and become their eyes... not to mention Lotus can be poisonous and is frequently cited as the source of poison in fantasy, and some historical texts. The lotus is also sacred in some ancient religions. Either reason could prove to be fatal towards an undead / daemonic sorcerer.
The hag tries to curse you and traditionally hags specialise in deadly curses and poisons, and petty, spiteful magiks against those who harm them or end up with their possessions / body parts after their death.
both suggest a more deadly effect than a pretty jewel Though this does require knowledge that a child may not have had at the time of publishing, though as an older reader you would have some knowledge of this through other fantasy sources. Plus I reckon that, if you only have 2 of the 3 ingredients, you ought to be allowed to take a punt on the remainder of the adventure, just in case. I agree with this as well. |
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Post by dragonwarrior8 on Dec 31, 2021 16:18:22 GMT
I think you guys are giving Ian way too much credit here. lol. Did he really put that much thought into the ingredients? (only to go random on the gems in the next book? Perhaps someone could pull some reason as to why the gems are to be used in the order they are as well) Is it even possible to crush hair? I dont think bashing a pearl with the hilt of your sword would be anything unusual in the books. Dont get me wrong, I do consider City of Thieves a classic as well (and would rank Ian's top three as Deathtrap, Temple, then City), but this is also the book with the absolutely eye-rolling Bay's Ball game, along with having to get a big tattoo right in the middle of your forehead. |
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Post by petch on Dec 31, 2021 16:40:41 GMT
I don't think I ever even considered the possibility that the end of CoT was anything other than an arbitrary shot-in-the-dark choice. I tend to agree with dragonwarrior that Ian's perhaps being given too much credit here but some of these ideas are certainly food for thought!
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Post by The Count on Dec 31, 2021 16:45:51 GMT
I think you guys are giving Ian way too much credit here. lol. Did he really put that much thought into the ingredients? (only to go random on the gems in the next book? Perhaps someone could pull some reason as to why the gems are to be used in the order they are as well) Is it even possible to crush hair? I dont think bashing a pearl with the hilt of your sword would be anything unusual in the books. I don't think he put any thought into it, it just happens to make sense if you assume that You crush the lotus flower into the hair which then absorb it and combine the poisons with the spiteful majiks of the hag. Dont get me wrong, I do consider City of Thieves a classic as well (and would rank Ian's top three as Deathtrap, Temple, then City), but this is also the book with the absolutely eye-rolling Bay's Ball game, along with having to get a big tattoo right in the middle of your forehead. Two of the three things that take me out of the otherwise excellent story, the third being the guards with the infantile names. |
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Post by petch on Dec 31, 2021 16:49:41 GMT
Voted City. My preference goes to a good story/background rather than a good.. well... pure game. The only story moment in DD is the short collaboration with Throm. After Forest, City is imho the first book that introduced a real background/geography. In general, I'm with you on this - I'll usually forgive any number of gameplay flaws if a narrative is compelling or well told enough. That said, in this poll I was boring and went with the frontrunner Deathtrap...while it is both light on narrative and unfair in gameplay terms (arguably with some justification though as others have pointed out), I find it irresistible both conceptually and in its overall execution of that concept. |
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Post by vastariner on Dec 31, 2021 18:47:12 GMT
I'm going massively against the grain and voting for Snow Witch.
There are a few reasons.
1. It might be seen as something of a rip-off for a book to be a buffed-up version of a Warlock adventure, but I found that exciting; a peek behind the curtain, so to speak.
2. I love the illustrations. They're Marmite, but looking at them as art rather than as visions, they're the best of the lot; evocative of a different time and place.
3. Reading about polar exploration is one of my hobbies - for the same reason I'm quite partial to Tower of Destruction. Exploring the Icefinger Mountains is a very different experience and feel.
4. The Death Spell twist is intriguing, even if the Stubb storyline is unresolved (I put it down to only the PC and Redswift being affected, because Redswift reads it, and you tell him to do so).
5. The cover makes orcs look dangerous. Rather than the lumpen grotesques of other books that look more like Sk1 St2 than the half-decent fight they're meant to present.
6. We're back into the accidental saving the world territory. It's more realistic if you're doing something rather minor and them stumble on something pretty scary.
There are logical flaws in it - e.g. the whole rock/paper/scissors thing, it seems a missed opportunity for the Snow Witch, or that you can only throw daggers to release the grille but not use the sling and stones you might have - but logical flaws are something all Livingstonia have, so they cannot count as demerits.
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Post by johnbrawn1972 on Dec 31, 2021 19:04:28 GMT
I think everyone agrees City of Thieves's endgame is its weakest part, what with the Skill 11 Moon Dog and having to randomly choose the correct ingredients. It's largely why I ultimately voted for Deathtrap. The endgame of City is better than that of DD - one Skill 11 enemy and a random selection of 2 from 3 (where the choice is actually obvious if you think about it) against: Lose 1 or 3 Skill to try to get an item that might be of help If you have another item, test luck to use both, if you don't have this item or fail the luck test, face a Skill 12 enemy with potential Stamina loss just before this - if you do pass the luck test, you miss the chance to regain 1 of your 1 or 3 Skill points and potentially get another penalty later. Skill 11 enemy, with another potential 1 Skill loss just before, so you could be on -4 Skill here... Another Skill 12 enemy that will kill you outright if you don't have another item Yet another Skill 11 enemy that you will lose more stamina against if you weren't unlucky against the pit fiend and tried to avoid stamina loss earlier Then a random combination of 3 items in a specific order that is purely guesswork... And yet those that praise DD seem to have issues with the similar scenarios in Crypt There are significant arguments against this as developed in the solutions that have been offered. You have the option of avoiding the tentacle if you have lost the rope. The Pit Fiend is brutal but there is at least an option to evade this unlike the skill 11 Moon Dog. You even have the choice to try to regain 2 luck points which shows there is an element of fair play here. The best option at the beginning is to take the Potion of Skill and I believe from the early books this is a very unusual option to have to exploit. The book is absolutely explicit you have a shield from the beginning as evidenced by the paragraph where you throw the shield over the pit but it slips from your grasp so if you avoid this option you are armed with a shield in the later encounters. The book is neither unfair or irrational on this point. The last encounter can be exploited just as the last encounter can be exploited in the other book. This seems to be even stevens. Compared to the later efforts where it comes down to a dice throw this is a blessing it seems to me. |
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Post by johnbrawn1972 on Dec 31, 2021 19:08:52 GMT
I'm going massively against the grain and voting for Snow Witch. There are a few reasons. 1. It might be seen as something of a rip-off for a book to be a buffed-up version of a Warlock adventure, but I found that exciting; a peek behind the curtain, so to speak. 2. I love the illustrations. They're Marmite, but looking at them as art rather than as visions, they're the best of the lot; evocative of a different time and place. 3. Reading about polar exploration is one of my hobbies - for the same reason I'm quite partial to Tower of Destruction. Exploring the Icefinger Mountains is a very different experience and feel. 4. The Death Spell twist is intriguing, even if the Stubb storyline is unresolved (I put it down to only the PC and Redswift being affected, because Redswift reads it, and you tell him to do so). 5. The cover makes orcs look dangerous. Rather than the lumpen grotesques of other books that look more like Sk1 St2 than the half-decent fight they're meant to present. 6. We're back into the accidental saving the world territory. It's more realistic if you're doing something rather minor and them stumble on something pretty scary. There are logical flaws in it - e.g. the whole rock/paper/scissors thing, it seems a missed opportunity for the Snow Witch, or that you can only throw daggers to release the grille but not use the sling and stones you might have - but logical flaws are something all Livingstonia have, so they cannot count as demerits. I am very sympathetic to this. Personally I believe the first half dozen are very superior. |
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kieran
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Post by kieran on Dec 31, 2021 19:53:20 GMT
I think you guys are giving Ian way too much credit here. Probably. But that was the logic I applied as an 8 year old and, hey, it worked! |
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Post by petch on Jan 1, 2022 0:21:31 GMT
Deathtrap Dungeon is the first book from the author polls to go through to the final poll.
Going by its placement as Ian's highest scoring book at 8th in Wilf's rankings, not a surprise result, but what is noteworthy is that in a poll that will have more options than any other due to Livingstone's volume of content, it secured nearly half of the total votes. Indeed, despite there being 16 options, just two books, Deathtrap Dungeon and City of Thieves, accounted for nearly three quarters of all votes cast. And if further evidence was needed that Livingstone's early output is the most well regarded of his work, no book post Crypt of the Sorcerer received any votes at all.
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