71) Shadow of the Giants Solution

[corianthus]

Hello all, this is my solution to Ian Livingstone's Shadow of the Giants. 


Stamina 18+, Luck 8+ recommended. 

You start with:
- No sword

- Map

- 10 Provisions

- 50 Gold

- Potion (Choose Potion of Skill)





- Begin at paragraph 1

- Ask if he knows Dunbar Lapp.

- Purchase Fire Sword.

- Add Fire Sword (Deduct 15 Gold).

- Add Dagger.

- Pay Dunbar (Deduct 2 Gold).

- Sit down at another table.

- Hire Higgly (Deduct 4 Gold).

- Leave Anvil without further delay.

- Walk on.

- Press the emerald eye.

- Let Higgly try on the crown.

- Test Skill. Fail = Lose 2 Stamina.

- Lose 1 Luck.

- Talk to the old man.

- Draw your sword.

- Attack him.

- Fight Sk 8 St 5 Wererat.

- Add 2 Gold and ‘3’ gold key (Add 1 Luck).

- Continue walking along the riverbank.

- Knock on the door.

- Knock on the door again.

- Ask if you can buy one of his horses.

- Reply Hamelin.

- Ask him if he has heard of Marik Om-Yash.

- Tell Hogget about the Crown of Chaos and the Iron Giants.

- Add Silver medallion with a dragon's head.

- Add horse.

- Untie the man.

- Add clover leaf charm (Free successful Luck Test).

- Give her your horse to cross the river. Lose horse.

- Walk straight to Hamelin.

- Pay Binny 1 Gold piece (Deduct 1 Gold).

- Enter the pie-eating contest.

- Test Luck (Don’t use clover leaf charm here).

    - Success = Add 4 Stamina.

    - Fail = Add 4 Stamina, deduct 2 Gold.

- Carry on walking.

- Look around the fair.

- Look at the vendors’ stalls.

- Buy Bat Balm, Spider Oil, Fever-Free Tonic and Goblin Earwax (Deduct 8 Gold).

- You have a gold key and would like to sell it to the singing salesman.

- You have a numbered gold key and you wish to sell it to Wilbur.

- Demand 30 Gold pieces for the key.

- Lose ‘3’ gold key.

- Add 30 Gold.

- Walk on to the next stall.

- Leave the fair via Brass Street at the far end of the square.

- Give Trolls 10 Gold Pieces (Deduct 10 Gold).

- Test Luck. Fail = Deduct 5 Gold (Don’t use clover leaf charm here).

- Turn right into Brick Lane.

- Examine the items on his tray.

- Purchase all 9+ items which includes iron key and picklock (Deduct 5 Gold).

- Enter the warehouse.

- Fight Sk 5 St 4 First Giant Rat.

- Fight Sk 5 St 5 Second Giant Rat.

- Fight Sk 5 St 5 Third Giant Rat.

- Test Luck. Fail = You have Honest Jon’s Fever-Free Tonic (Don’t use clover leaf charm here).

- Go down to the cellar.

- Wade through the filthy water over to the steps.

- You have a dagger (Lose 1 Stamina).

- You have an iron key.

- Take the amulet.

- Draw your sword to fight the dragon.

- Fight Sk 9 St 8 Emerald Dragon (+1 Attack Strength for this combat due to Fire Sword).

- Add snake’s head amulet.

- Reach down into the black water to pick it up. (Add 1 Luck and 6 Gold).

- Take the lamp.

- Put the lamp in your backpack.

- Add brass lamp.

- Enter the shop.

- Attack the undead creature with your sword.

- Buy Potion of Healing and Ring of the Zombies (Deduct 5 Gold).

- Go in the junk shop.

- Buy the sword.

- Buy Serpent Sword (Add 1 Luck, deduct 10 Gold).

- Lose Fire Sword.

- Turn right into Back Alley.

- Pull on the handle to drink from the spout (Add 2 Stamina).

- Swap your boots for the Elven Boots.

- Add Elven Boots (Add 1 Luck).

- Test Skill. Fail = Lose 1 Skill and 2 Stamina.

- Go down the alleyway.

- Climb up the ladder.

- Climb over the wall and knock on the door.

- Tell him Harold Hogget told you to come.

- You are wearing a silver medallion with a dragon’s head etched on it.

- Ask Marik if he can tell you anything else about the Gorgon’s tomb (Add 2 Luck).

- Help the old lady.

- You possess and wish to drink Spider Oil.

- Fight Sk 7 St 6 Spider Hag.

- Add 4 Gold and Ring of Entanglement.

- Stop and speak to the man.

- Test Luck. Fail = Lose 1D6 items (Lose up to 6 items purchased from grubby-looking boy except picklock). (Don’t use clover leaf charm here).

- You still want to speak to him.

- Tell the Ranger about your quest to take down the Iron Giants.

- Invite Goose to join you on your quest.

- Draw your sword and fight them (Add 1 Luck).

- Keep on walking (Lose 2 Stamina).

- Enter the cave on your right.

- Test Skill. Fail = You have Bat Balm.

- Test Luck. Fail = Take 1D6 hits, each hit lose 2 Stamina. (Don’t use clover leaf charm here).

- Carry straight on into the tunnel ahead.

- Walk on without touching the lever (Add 1 Luck).

- You are wearing a Ring of Zombies.

- Test Luck. Fail = Test Skill. Fail = Lose 1 Skill and 2 Stamina (Recommend drinking Potion of Skill to restore any lost Skill points if 2 Skill has already been lost). (Don’t use clover leaf charm here).

- Walk to/open the iron-barred door at the back of the cave which opens into/leads to another tunnel.

- You do not have a gold key.

- You do own a picklock.

- Fight Sk 10 St 10 Cobrax (+2 Attack Strength for this combat, you are fighting with a Serpent Sword). (Each Attack Round, Cobrax loses 1 Stamina).

- If you lose one or more Attack Rounds during the battle, you are wearing a snake’s head amulet (Add 1 Luck).

- If you did not lose any Attack Rounds, Add 1 Luck.

- Add 50 Gold.

- You own a brass lamp.

- Fight Sk 10 St 10 Gorgon (fight lasts for only 2 Attack Rounds).

- Note: Gorgon had 18 snakes on her head.

- Add 1 box of Rust Beetles and 1 Gold idol.

- Tiptoe around the gate to reach the passageway at the back of the room.

- Help Goose climb out of the pit.

- Touch the orb.

- Answer with your own name.

- Gorgon had 18 snakes on her head, turn to paragraph 18.

- Add 2 Stamina.

- Test Skill.

    - Success = Test Luck. Fail = Lose 2 Skill (Recommend using clover charm for this Luck test to prevent losing 2 Skill if Potion of Skill has been used).

    - Fail = Lose 1 Skill and 8 Stamina. You have a Potion of Healing (Add 6 Stamina).

- Go to Goose’s aid.

- If you already used a Potion of Healing on yourself, lose 2 Stamina.

- You are attacking with a Serpent Sword (Drink Potion of Skill here if still available).

- Roll 2D6 +4.

    - If total < 10, Test Skill. Fail = Death.

- You are attacking with a Serpent Sword.

- Test Skill -2. Fail = Death.

- You are attacking with a Serpent Sword.

- Test Skill -2. Fail = Death.

- You have a Ring of Entanglement.

- Thrust your blade into the larger hole in its chest.

- You are attacking with a serpent sword.

- Roll 2D6 + your Skill +2.

- If total < 16, Death (Although technically, Allansia has been saved).

- Test Luck (Use clover charm here if still available to get the good ending).

    - Success = Good ending, Goose lives.

    - Fail = Bad ending, Goose dies.

The Iron Giants have been defeated, Allansia is safe, and you have a fortune in gold.

[pip]

I am preparing a solution myself, I see that our solutions differ at times so I will be comparing them.

Edit: Using a custom statistics program, I see that my solution is better. Here are the stats for my solution (template borrowed from champskees):
Re-Edit: replaced my stats with improved stats after unrelated solution improvements




while your solution has inferior stats:

[pip]

Glad to see IL back on form for this book. This solution, and the stats spreadsheet, assume you save the clover leaf for the final luck test in order to make sure you get the truly good ending. I bypass the soothsayer and the florist, who both give you useful hints in exchange for gold, because the correct path can be guessed without their hints anyway. I give gold to the Trolls instead of fighting them (even though they are not very dangerous), because the solution provides you with enough gold even if you take that gold loss into account, so there's no point risking your stamina in an unnecessary fight.

The winning odds for this solution assume you try to use Luck during battles if you lose an attack round and only have 2 stamina left, but only then. Whenever possible, use your provisions to restore your stamina to its initial value before a fight. Note that taking the Vampire Sword at the beginning, fighting the Wraith, then getting the Dragon Sword, produces the same winning odds as using the Rune Sword in some configurations, but has worse odds in others, so taking the Rune Sword is always either just as good or better.

NB: Thanks to everyone below who helped improve my original solution with their suggestions.

- You start your adventure with 50 Gold, 10 provisions, and a potion. Choose the Potion of Skill.
- Ask the man if he knows Dunbar Lapp
- Decide not to buy a sword
- Buy the Rune Sword (-5 Gold; you lose -1 Stamina when you use it) and tip Dunbar (-1 Gold)
- Sit down at another table
- Hire Higgly
- -4 Gold, leave Anvil without further delay
- Ignore the hole and walk on
- Press the emerald eye
- Let Higgly try on the crown
- Test Skill: Failure = -2 Stamina
- -1 Luck
- Ignore the old man and keep walking
- Knock on the door
- Knock again
- Ask the man if you can buy a horse
- Say you're headed to Hamelin
- Ask about Marik Om-Yash
- Tell him about the Iron Giants
- Get a horse and a silver medallion
- Help the man
- Get the clover leaf which lets you bypass a Luck Test
- Give Rosa your horse
- Walk straight into Hamelin
- Pay Binny for a tour (-1 Gold)
- Just watch the contest
- +2 Stamina, -3 Gold
- Carry on walking (you can optionally talk to the men to get hints we're not going to use here)
- Skip the challenge and walk around the fair
- Look at the vendors' stalls
- Buy bat balm (-1 Gold) and spider oil (-2 Gold)
- You don't have a gold key, walk on
- Don't wait for the florist, walk on to the next stall
- Don't try the "Lucky Dip" and leave the fair
- Give gold to the trolls
- -10 Gold, Test Luck: Unlucky = -5 Gold
- Go to Brick Lane
- Examine the items
- Buy picklock and any other four items (-2 Gold)
- Ignore the warehouse and walk on
- Take the lamp
- Put the lamp in your backpack, get brass lamp
- Enter the shop
- Attack the "zombie"
- Buy Potion of Healing (-1 Gold), Ring of the Zombies (-4 Gold)
- Go in the junk shop
- Buy the helmet (-5 Gold)
- Get helmet, which gives you +1 attack strength in every fight
- Turn into Back Alley
- Drink from the spout
- +2 Stamina, swap your boots for the elven boots
- Get elven boots, +1 Luck
- Test Skill: Failure = -1 Skill, -2 Stamina
- Go down the alleyway
- Climb up the ladder
- Climb up over the wall and knock on the door
- Say Harold Hogget told you to come
- You are wearing a silver medallion
- Optionally, ask Marik about the Gorgon's tomb, or don't
- +2 Luck
- Help the old lady
- You have spider oil and wish to drink it
- Fight Spider Hag Sk 7 St 6
- Get Ring of Entanglement and more junk
- Stop and speak to the man
- Test Luck: Unlucky = lose 1d6 items (discard the items you got from the junk shop except for the picklock, and/or the items you got after the Spider Hag fight except for the Ring)
- You still want to speak to the man
- Tell him about the Iron Giants
- Invite Goose to join you
- Fight the Pixies
- +1 Luck
- If you have lost a skill point earlier (if not, ignore the throne and keep on walking):
        - Sit on the throne
        - +1 Skill, +3 Stamina
        - Test Luck: Unlucky = you do not have a war hammer, -1 Luck, -3 Stamina
- -2 Stamina, enter the cave on your right
- Test Skill: Failure = you have bat balm, -2 Stamina
- Test Luck: Failure = -1d6 x 2 Stamina
- Follow the left-hand tunnel
- You are wearing elven boots
- +1 Luck, turn left
- Walk on without touching the lever
- +1 Luck
- You are wearing a Ring of the Zombies
- Test Luck: Unlucky = Test Skill: Failure = -1 Skill, -2 Stamina
- Don't search the cave and walk to the iron door
- You do not have a gold key
- You have a picklock
- Fight Cobrax Sk 10 St 10, he loses -1 St per round thanks to Goose
- If you got hurt during the fight: you are not wearing a snake's head amulet, you have a Potion of Healing, +6 Stamina; If you did not get hurt: +1 Luck
- You have a brass lamp
- Fight Gorgon Sk 10 St 10 you only need to stay alive for two rounds to end the fight
- Note that there are 18 snakes
- Tiptoe around the gate
- Help Goose
- Touch the orb
- Answer with your own name
- You know the answer (18), turn to 18
- +2 Stamina
- Test Skill: 
    Success = Test Luck: Unlucky = -2 Skill
    Failure = -1 Skill, -8 Stamina; if you still have a Potion of Healing, +6 Stamina
- Go to Goose's aid
- If you no longer have a Potion of Healing: -2 Stamina
- Drink your Potion of Skill here
- You have a Rune Sword
- Roll 2d6 + 6
    If the total >= 10: proceed
    else: Test Skill: Success = proceed, Failure = game over
- You have a Rune Sword
- Roll 2d6 - 3
    If the total <= your Skill: proceed
    else: game over
- +2 Luck
- You have a Rune Sword
- Roll 2d6 - 3
    If the total <= your Skill: proceed
    else: game over 
- You are wearing a Ring of Entanglement
- Aim for the larger hole
- You have a Rune Sword
- Roll 2d6 + your Skill + 3
    If the total >= 16: proceed
    else: game over
- Test Luck: (use clover leaf here) Unlucky = bittersweet ending
- You have saved Allansia. You get a statue, +200 Gold, and lots of gifts.


Here are the stats for my solution, borrowing the template from champskees:

[CharlesX]

I wonder whether a low Skill, mid Stamina avatar would be better off taking the Rune Sword, not going for the Wraith fight, and using the money they save on the Serpent sword instead of the helmet? I believe the Rune sword is intended as a 1 stamina damage per attack round penalty.
   Of course, if it were under house rules, 1 stamina damage per won attack round or per enemy would make the Rune Sword a good choice, but I don't think that was IL's intent.

[pip]

Sept 27, 2022 10:12:18 GMT CharlesX said:

I wonder whether a low Skill, mid Stamina avatar would be better off taking the Rune Sword, not going for the Wraith fight, and using the money they save on the Serpent sword instead of the helmet? I believe the Rune sword is intended as a 1 stamina damage per attack round penalty.
   Of course, if it were under house rules, 1 stamina damage per won attack round or per enemy would make the Rune Sword a good choice, but I don't think that was IL's intent.

I did simulate skipping the wraith fight and using the serpent sword instead (this is what corianthus's solution suggests), and the winning odds were worse for all skills. Keeping in mind that with the vampire sword, you get a +2 bonus against the wraith, so he's effectively 8/10 instead of 10/10.

By the way, if you want to have money for the serpent sword, instead of going for the rune sword, wouldn't it be better anyway to fight the wererat so you can later sell the key for 30 gold?

[CharlesX]

Sept 27, 2022 11:19:30 GMT pip said:

Sept 27, 2022 10:12:18 GMT CharlesX said:

I wonder whether a low Skill, mid Stamina avatar would be better off taking the Rune Sword, not going for the Wraith fight, and using the money they save on the Serpent sword instead of the helmet? I believe the Rune sword is intended as a 1 stamina damage per attack round penalty.
   Of course, if it were under house rules, 1 stamina damage per won attack round or per enemy would make the Rune Sword a good choice, but I don't think that was IL's intent.

I did simulate skipping the wraith fight and using the serpent sword instead (this is what corianthus's solution suggests), and the winning odds were worse for all skills. Keeping in mind that with the vampire sword, you get a +2 bonus against the wraith, so he's effectively 8/10 instead of 10/10.

By the way, if you want to have money for the serpent sword, instead of going for the rune sword, wouldn't it be better anyway to fight the wererat so you can later sell the key for 30 gold?

Almost certainly it would, though depending a bit on how you interperet the rune sword penalty. A Skill 8 Stamina 5 opponent (the Wererat) could still kill a minimum\minimal stats Avatar and remember you can only buy one item from the dwarf shopkeeper, so either the helmet or the Serpent sword.

   I think we're looking at this from different viewpoints - you're right that from a coldly logical clinical point of view the Rune Sword is just never worth getting. From an RPG point of view it's entirely possible to win going with the Rune Sword, even more likely than winning with the Demon Sword, but only someone who would want to enjoy playing off the true path would go with either one.  I've given Corianthus a thumbs up (like) because I think his solution might be fun from an RPG perspective even f the odds are technically worse.

[jmisbest]

Sept 27, 2022 12:33:51 GMT CharlesX said:

Sept 27, 2022 11:19:30 GMT pip said:

I did simulate skipping the wraith fight and using the serpent sword instead (this is what corianthus's solution suggests), and the winning odds were worse for all skills. Keeping in mind that with the vampire sword, you get a +2 bonus against the wraith, so he's effectively 8/10 instead of 10/10.

By the way, if you want to have money for the serpent sword, instead of going for the rune sword, wouldn't it be better anyway to fight the wererat so you can later sell the key for 30 gold?

Almost certainly it would, though depending a bit on how you interperet the rune sword penalty. A Skill 8 Stamina 5 opponent (the Wererat) could still kill a minimum\minimal stats Avatar and remember you can only buy one item from the dwarf shopkeeper, so either the helmet or the Serpent sword.

   I think we're looking at this from different viewpoints - you're right that from a coldly logical clinical point of view the Rune Sword is just never worth getting. From an RPG point of view it's entirely possible to win going with the Rune Sword, even more likely than winning with the Demon Sword, but only someone who would want to enjoy playing off the true path would go with either one.  I've given Corianthus a thumbs up (like) because I think his solution might be fun from an RPG perspective even f the odds are technically worse.

Last night I used this guide to beat the book with The Skill 12, Stamina 17 and Luck 7 character I've mentioned before and I plan to have another go today

The thing is that when generating the character for my 2nd playthrough I rolled A 6 for Skill, A double 1 for Stamina and A 4 for Luck, so tell me can Shadows of Giants be beat with a character with Skill 12, Stamina 14 and Luck 10?

In case your wondering no I didn't cheat and never cheat on my Skill Roll, although I would understand why you'd think I cheat, so I fell that I must say that the truth of the matter is that for some strange reason most of the fighting fantasy characters I make have a high Skill

[CharlesX]

Sept 28, 2022 8:48:04 GMT jmisbest said:

Sept 27, 2022 12:33:51 GMT CharlesX said:

Almost certainly it would, though depending a bit on how you interperet the rune sword penalty. A Skill 8 Stamina 5 opponent (the Wererat) could still kill a minimum\minimal stats Avatar and remember you can only buy one item from the dwarf shopkeeper, so either the helmet or the Serpent sword.

   I think we're looking at this from different viewpoints - you're right that from a coldly logical clinical point of view the Rune Sword is just never worth getting. From an RPG point of view it's entirely possible to win going with the Rune Sword, even more likely than winning with the Demon Sword, but only someone who would want to enjoy playing off the true path would go with either one.  I've given Corianthus a thumbs up (like) because I think his solution might be fun from an RPG perspective even f the odds are technically worse.

Last night I used this guide to beat the book with The Skill 12, Stamina 17 and Luck 7 character I've mentioned before and I plan to have another go today

The thing is that when generating the character for my 2nd playthrough I rolled A 6 for Skill, A double 1 for Stamina and A 4 for Luck, so tell me can Shadows of Giants be beat with a character with Skill 12, Stamina 14 and Luck 10?

In case your wondering no I didn't cheat and never cheat on my Skill Roll, I'm just very lucky with dice rolls

Hmm you didn't cheat but just happened to roll the maximum for the most important stat and above-average for another one as well - a likely story.

Either way you shouldn't have to ask (now, or again) because the probability matrix is here under this section. It puts your odds on the true path at 97.4% success.

[corianthus]

Thanks Pip for the stats and improved solution. Pretty interesting to see the differences in terms of the probabilities. Somehow I must have missed out that you don’t get an instant death if you are lacking the snake’s head amulet.

Nice to see a Livingstone book which is winnable even for a minimum stats character.

[philsadler]

I'm starting to wonder if IL actually wrote this book himself. After all, he's had five others ghostwritten (one FF, and four novels, and those are just the ones that he's admitted to), because, although the book is still linear as ever, it's just not as stupidly difficult or as unfair.

[johnbrawn1972]

I hate to be a bit fussy but autism is there in my genes or developmental attributes or some such thing.

I agree with the beginning as you are fighting the Wraith with only a -1 attack point disadvantage if you have the Vampire Sword. Nevertheless you will take some damage.

I like your idea of giving the gold as a brutally honest way of reducing risk.

The success rates seem almost unbelievable. Cobrax has a skill of 10. If you have 7(+1) skill, and it then becomes fairly likely you could lose another skill point, you then have to fight at a -2 or -3 attack point disadvantage. This seems pretty brutal in unison with the above fight.

There is a way to recover skill if you enter the left cave as there is a very helpful +1 skill boost though you have to fight a Lich. You can then leave and enter the right cave.

If you have the Elven Boots you can enter a tunnel to take the +1 attack strength shield but you have to solve a puzzle to leave the trap. This makes the fight with Cobrax much easier.

It may be better to use the lucky button after activating the Ring of the Zombies? This stops the possibility of losing skill before the Cobrax fight.

You will then be fighting Cobrax at only a -1 attack strength disadvantage in my system.

I think you are right to use the Potion of Skill at the point you select.

Personally I take my chances at the end as the option is a sort of Demons of the Deep ending or the true ending. I would rather maximise my chances of reaching this trade off.

[pip]

Oct 5, 2022 17:25:06 GMT johnbrawn1972 said:

I hate to be a bit fussy but autism is there in my genes or developmental attributes or some such thing.

I agree with the beginning as you are fighting the Wraith with only a -1 attack point disadvantage if you have the Vampire Sword. Nevertheless you will take some damage.

Fighting the Wraith (with the vampire sword) in order to get the dragon sword is the best strategy in all the configurations I've tried. Having the dragon sword really pays off statistically once you face the Giants. The vampire sword's bonus effectively makes the Wraith a 8/10 enemy, so he's not that scary, especially as you will also have all your provisions left after the fight.

I like your idea of giving the gold as a brutally honest way of reducing risk.

Indeed, it feels wimpy but if you strictly follow my solution, it is the safest path.

The success rates seem almost unbelievable. Cobrax has a skill of 10. If you have 7(+1) skill, and it then becomes fairly likely you could lose another skill point, you then have to fight at a -2 or -3 attack point disadvantage. This seems pretty brutal in unison with the above fight.

Cobrax is one of the toughest encounters here. But he also automatically loses 1 stamina each round. The solution does take your provisions into account, and it is assumed that you eat whenever you need to and get the chance. You should likely have your stamina fully refreshed when you face him.

There is a way to recover skill if you enter the left cave as there is a very helpful +1 skill boost though you have to fight a Lich. You can then leave and enter the right cave.

I think I checked that and found it statistically not worth it, but am no longer 100% sure. I'll check again when I have time.

If you have the Elven Boots you can enter a tunnel to take the +1 attack strength shield but you have to solve a puzzle to leave the trap. This makes the fight with Cobrax much easier.

This involves a fight with another Skill 10 opponent, with no automatic stamina loss this time. The puzzle is the least of your worries here. It is statistically not worth it.

It may be better to use the lucky button after activating the Ring of the Zombies? This stops the possibility of losing skill before the Cobrax fight.

You will then be fighting Cobrax at only a -1 attack strength disadvantage in my system.

I think you are right to use the Potion of Skill at the point you select.

Personally I take my chances at the end as the option is a sort of Demons of the Deep ending or the true ending. I would rather maximise my chances of reaching this trade off.

Indeed, I choose to maximise the chance to reach 400. The solution is designed with that in mind. If you consider you've won even if you lose that last luck test, then it's better to use the clover leaf earlier.

[johnbrawn1972]

This is really hard when I tried to factor in your solution ideas last night. I have no access to the internet at home.

I am wondering with 7/14/7 and presuming you have a reasonable chance(greater than 5%?) I am starting to think maybe the Helmet and Shield are red herrings.

One of the other posters said to buy the Rune Sword(not sure about the rule here but I presumed one extra stamina loss per fight not attack round. Any help Sylas?) and Serpent Sword which I think must be thought about. The only thing is at the end you are then at a -1 disadvantage as you point out above. The idea is to identify Cobrax as one tough opponent so if you can beat that with the help of arrows then it might be worth it.

I had also forgotten about the throne to restore a lost skill point as even if you do not have the warhammer you can still just accept the stamina loss. The Lich is still there if you have managed to lose yet another skill point though it is rather tough and results in a loss of a lot of stamina.

[CharlesX]

Oct 6, 2022 11:54:24 GMT johnbrawn1972 said:

This is really hard when I tried to factor in your solution ideas last night. I have no access to the internet at home.

I am wondering with 7/14/7 and presuming you have a reasonable chance(greater than 5%?) I am starting to think maybe the Helmet and Shield are red herrings.

One of the other posters said to buy the Rune Sword(not sure about the rule here but I presumed one extra stamina loss per fight not attack round. Any help Sylas?) and Serpent Sword which I think must be thought about. The only thing is at the end you are then at a -1 disadvantage as you point out above. The idea is to identify Cobrax as one tough opponent so if you can beat that with the help of arrows then it might be worth it.

I had also forgotten about the throne to restore a lost skill point as even if you do not have the warhammer you can still just accept the stamina loss. The Lich is still there if you have managed to lose yet another skill point though it is rather tough and results in a loss of a lot of stamina.

It was me who suggested trying out the Rune Sword but Pip was right in his reply - it's only a more disadvantageous version of Corianthus's solution, which is worse than Pip's own one by a distinct margin no matter what your starting stats, and trying out different permutations such as getting the helmet instead of the Serpent Sword or not fighting the Wererat only makes this even more disadvantageous. Pip's solution doesn't seem to take into account whether it's worth taking those risks you point out to gain skill if you've lost some - I don't think the Lich is worth it, but the throne arguably is.

[sylas]

AFAIK the Rune Sword is meant to drain 1 Stamina per combat. Draining 1 Stamina per combat round would make little sense since even a single battle with lots of draws on dice rolls can kill you. I don't believe that was Ian's intention.

[johnbrawn1972]

Oct 6, 2022 14:58:14 GMT sylas said:

AFAIK the Rune Sword is meant to drain 1 Stamina per combat. Draining 1 Stamina per combat round would make little sense since even a single battle with lots of draws on dice rolls can kill you. I don't believe that was Ian's intention.

This makes a lot more sense as otherwise the weapon would be really brutal to the point of being a total red herring rather than something of a very modestly poisoned chalice.

I am not sure if something of a mixture of the solutions already posted will be a way forward along with the suggestion of Charlie.

[pip]

I have tested sitting on the throne if you have lost a skill point earlier, and it does improve the odds. The solution and stats spreadsheet have been updated. Note that this makes a difference if your Skill is <= 9. If your Skill is 10+, the odds are the same.

[misomiso]

Sept 29, 2022 5:34:44 GMT philsadler said:

I'm starting to wonder if IL actually wrote this book himself. After all, he's had five others ghostwritten (one FF, and four novels, and those are just the ones that he's admitted to), because, although the book is still linear as ever, it's just not as stupidly difficult or as unfair.

Which was the FF that was ghostwritten?

[CharlesX]

Oct 7, 2022 7:49:47 GMT misomiso said:

Sept 29, 2022 5:34:44 GMT philsadler said:

I'm starting to wonder if IL actually wrote this book himself. After all, he's had five others ghostwritten (one FF, and four novels, and those are just the ones that he's admitted to), because, although the book is still linear as ever, it's just not as stupidly difficult or as unfair.

Which was the FF that was ghostwritten?

That was Legend Of Zagor.

   Ian Livingstone's name appears on its own as the author, but the actual author was Keith Martin, with zero to nominal input (SFAIK) from Ian Livingstone, even though either name Carl Sargent\Keith Martin is nowhere in the credits.

   fightingfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Legend_of_Zagor_(book)

[johnbrawn1972]

I now have a working solution I am happy with so it has been nice to have the spurs on here. If only I can fix my computer. Now to try the other book but it is giving me more headaches than the labryinthine Stormslayer.

[thealmightymudworm]

Oct 6, 2022 18:05:40 GMT pip said:

I have tested sitting on the throne if you have lost a skill point earlier, and it does improve the odds. The solution and stats spreadsheet have been updated. Note that this makes a difference if your Skill is <= 9. If your Skill is 10+, the odds are the same.

I always thought it was an unwritten rule that gamebooks never mention sitting on the throne.

[CharlesX]

Oct 7, 2022 16:40:01 GMT thealmightymudworm said:

Oct 6, 2022 18:05:40 GMT pip said:

I have tested sitting on the throne if you have lost a skill point earlier, and it does improve the odds. The solution and stats spreadsheet have been updated. Note that this makes a difference if your Skill is <= 9. If your Skill is 10+, the odds are the same.

I always thought it was an unwritten rule that gamebooks never mention sitting on the throne.

I don't know what developed internet innuendo this might be (probably, this is something I should be glad about), but you can sit on the throne in Forest Of Doom, Ian Livingstone's first solo Fighting Fantasy.

[a moderator]

Oct 7, 2022 19:53:20 GMT CharlesX said:

Oct 7, 2022 16:40:01 GMT thealmightymudworm said:

I always thought it was an unwritten rule that gamebooks never mention sitting on the throne.

I don't know what developed internet innuendo this might be (probably, this is something I should be glad about)

It's been a euphemism for using the lavatory since long before the internet came into being. And there are some gamebooks out there in which you have the option of doing so at some point - Tunnels & Trolls' solo Weirdworld and Grail Quest's Legion of the Dead being the most prominent examples of which I'm aware.

[paperexplorer]

My first win of this book matched neither of the above solutions. The lock picks aren't needed if you have the Gold key, so there is a double chance to get past that dead end.

[pip]

That's correct, but getting the gold key involves a fight, while the picklock doesn't, so going with the picklock is safer. Good to see a IL book with different options to win, though.

[scouserob]

A few tweaks to Pip's Vampire Sword/Dragon Sword Solution before comparing it with my own.

After a little experimentation the following simple Luck in Battle strategy seems to give good results:

Always test your Luck if you lose an attack round and Stamina = 2. (The last chance saving throw.)

Test your Luck if you win an attack round against the Wraith and Current Luck = Initial Luck and its Stamina > 2.

Test your Luck if you win an attack round against Cobrax and Current Luck ≥ 7 and (InitialStamina > 16 Or InitialStamina + InitialLuck > 25) and its Stamina > 3.
[Which is daft but seems to work well.]

Enter the Pie Eating Contest if Current Stamina < Initial Stamina - 4. (Only really makes a tiny difference for Skill 7 Adventurers.)

Here are the probabilities of winning I get for Pip's Solution:
[Edit forgot to add Helmet Attack Strength Bonus!]
[Edit: Changed Provisions rule to eat whenever below initial stamina for Dart Trap.]
[Assuming my calculations are correct!]


And here is the very, very, very slight difference that was made by entering the Pie Eating Contest if you lose more than 4 Stamina against the Wraith:

[scouserob]

Rune Sword Solution:

The only difficult fight is Cobrax who has an effective Skill of 9 due to the +1 Attack Strength Helmet.
That fight lasts a maximum of 10 rounds due to Goose's arrows and with a bit of Luck it can be over in 2 rounds. (4 DA + 1 from Goose!)
(The Spider Hag will have an effective skill of 6 due to the +1 Attack Strength Helmet and the Gorgon fight only lasts for two rounds.)

This solution assumes the following penalties for using the Rune Sword as per Sylas' post above:

Oct 6, 2022 14:58:14 GMT sylas said:

AFAIK the Rune Sword is meant to drain 1 Stamina per combat. Draining 1 Stamina per combat round would make little sense since even a single battle with lots of draws on dice rolls can kill you. I don't believe that was Ian's intention.

-1 Stamina at the start of Spider Hag fight.
-1 Stamina at the start of Cobrax Fight.
-1 Stamina at the start of Gorgon fight.
-1 Stamina felling 1st Iron Giant.
-1 Stamina felling 2nd Iron Giant.
-1 Stamina felling 3rd Iron Giant.
-1 Stamina finishing off Entangled Iron Giant.

The only other difference between using the Rune Sword path and Pip's Vampire Sword/Dragon Sword solution (tweaked version as per post above) is that the Wraith fight is missed out.

The Stamina saved by missing this fight seems to outweigh the Rune Sword's Stamina penalties in all cases.

Here are the probabilities for the Rune Sword Solution:
[Edit: Forgot to reduce the Spider Hag to Skill 6 Stamina 6 due to the Helmet. 🤦🏻‍♂️]
[Edit: Provision Rule changed to always eat if less than Initial Stamina before Dart Trap.]
[Assuming my calculations are correct!]


And here is the advantage of the Rune Sword over the Vampire Sword/Dragon Sword:

[scouserob]

Here are the probabilities for JohnBrawn's Rune/Serpent Sword strategy as requested.

I disregarded your choice of putting Goose’s life at risk and saved the Lucky Charm button to the end. (You beast! 😜)

Yet again you succeeded in your aim to find a better solution than that given for the lowest powered adventurer.

Though of course the lower percentages attached to surviving the Iron Giants with the Serpent Sword dominate at higher Skill levels.
[Assuming my calculations are correct!]


Advantage over Vampire Sword/Dragon Sword strategy:
[Assuming my calculations are correct!]


Advantage over the Rune Sword path:
[Assuming my calculations are correct!]

[scouserob]

Done some manual number crunching to investigate why the Rune Sword path may be the best choice.

The Spider Hag is effectively Skill 6 Stamina 6 (with the Helmet’s Attack Strength bonus) and even a Skill 7 Adventurer, who will be at Initial Stamina for the fight, will have little problem emerging victorious, 1 Stamina Rune Sword penalty or not.


The Gorgon is only two Attack Rounds so even a Skill 7 Adventurer can only lose 4 Stamina.  (5 Stamina with the Rune Sword.)

The only things we have to worry about are the Wraith and Cobrax.

The Wraith fight seems to be most difficult fight on the Vampire Sword/Dragon Sword path at least in terms of expected Stamina loss for low Initial Skill adventurers.

(Ignoring Using Luck.)

Skill 7 Adventurer

Wraith Fight (Vampire Sword Dragon Sword Path)
Adventurer (+2 Attack Strength): Expected Stamina Loss Per Round ≈ 2*0.5563 ≈ 1.113
Wraith Skill 10: Expected Stamina Loss Per Round ≈ 2*0.3356≈ 0.671

Cobrax Fight (Both Paths)
Adventurer (+1 Attack Strength): Expected Stamina Loss Per Round ≈ 2*0.6644 ≈ 1.328
Cobrax Skill 10: Expected Stamina Loss Per Round ≈ 1*0.6644 + 1*0.0965 + 3*0.2392 ≈ 1.478

Expected Stamina loss to fully deplete the Wraith's 8 Stamina ≈ 13.260
Expected Stamina loss to fully deplete Cobrax's 10 Stamina ≈ 8.987
Expected Stamina loss to fully deplete Cobrax's 10 Stamina with Rune Sword Penalty ≈ 9.987


Skill 8 Adventurer

Wraith Fight (Vampire Sword Dragon Sword Path)
Don't even have to work it out.  You have the same effective Skill so you expect to lose the same amount.

Cobrax Fight (Both Paths)
Adventurer (+1 Attack Strength): Expected Stamina Loss Per Round ≈ 2*0.5563 ≈ 1.113
Cobrax Skill 10: Expected Stamina Loss Per Round ≈ 1*0.5563+ 1*0.1080+ 3*0.3356 ≈ 1.671

Expected Stamina loss to deplete the Wraith's 8 Stamina ≈ 8
Expected Stamina loss to fully deplete Cobrax's 10 Stamina ≈ 6.656
Expected Stamina loss to fully deplete Cobrax's 10 Stamina with Rune Sword Penalty ≈ 7.657


Skill 9 Adventurer

Wraith Fight (Vampire Sword Dragon Sword Path)
Adventurer (+2 Attack Strength): Expected Stamina Loss Per Round ≈ 2*0.3356 ≈ 0.671
Wraith Skill 10: Expected Stamina Loss Per Round ≈ 2*0.5563 ≈ 1.113

Cobrax Fight (Both Paths)
Adventurer (+1 Attack Strength): Expected Stamina Loss Per Round ≈ 2*0.4437 ≈ 0.887
Cobrax Skill 10: Expected Stamina Loss Per Round ≈ 1*0.4437+ 1*0.1127 + 3*0.4437 ≈ 1.887

Expected Stamina loss to deplete the Wraith's 8 Stamina ≈ 4.827
Expected Stamina loss to fully deplete Cobrax's 10 Stamina ≈ 4.702
Expected Stamina loss to fully deplete Cobrax's 10 Stamina with Rune Sword Penalty ≈ 5.702




And I've just realised that I didn't reduce the Spider Hag’s effective skill for the Rune Sword above when I reduced it for the Dragon Sword path...  Recalculation time! 🤦🏻‍♂️

[scouserob]

Shadow of the Giants - The Rune Sword Path

[Edit: Pip’s Walkthrough above is now, to all intents and purposes, identical to this as of 29-11-22.]

I think this is the best solution if you restrict the Rune Sword’s Stamina loss penalty to 1 per combat.
I'm also taking a 1 point Stamina loss for each Iron Giant strike in the finale.

Use provisions throughout to keep your stamina up to within 3 of its initial value.
Use provisions to max out your Stamina before the Spider Hag, the Dart Trap and Cobrax.

Most of the work on this was done by Pip and those who helped him refine his path above.

As usual always use Luck in Battle if you lose an Attack Round on 2 Stamina.
Using Luck when winning an Attack Round is only done against Cobrax and will be dealt with in the solution.

Anvil
Initial potion choice:
    Get Potion of Skill.
Ask him if he knows Dunbar Lapp.
You decide not to buy a sword.
Get Rune Sword. {-1 Stamina when used in combat.}
Lose 5 Gold Pieces. {To buy Rune Sword.  45 Gold Remaining.}
Lose 1 Gold Piece. {Tip for Dunbar Lapp.  44 Gold Remaining.}
Sit down at another table.
Hire the services of Higgly.
Lose 4 Gold Pieces. {To hire Higgly. 40 Gold Remaining.}
Leave Anvil without further delay.

Firetop Mountain
Walk on.
Press the emerald eye.
Let Higgly try on the crown.
If 2D6 > Skill:
    Lose 2 Stamina.
Lose 1 Luck.
Get the Iron Rim of the Crown of Chaos.

The Road to Hamelin
Keep on walking up the riverbank.
Knock on the door of the cabin.
Knock on the door again.
Ask him if you can buy one of his horses.
Reply Hamelin.
Ask him if he has heard of Marik Om-Yash.
Tell Hogget about the Crown of Chaos and the Iron Giants.
Get Hogget's Chain Necklace with Silver Medallion.
Get Willow the Horse.
Help the man.
Get Lucky Charm Button. {Automatically pass a Test Your Luck of your choice.}
Give her your horse to cross the river.
Lose Willow the Horse.
Walk straight into Hamelin.

Hamelin
Pay Binny 1 Gold Piece for a tour of Hamelin.
Lose 1 Gold Piece. {To hire Binny Brogan.  39 Gold Remaining.}
Just watch the contest.
Gain 2 Stamina.
Lose 3 Gold Pieces. {To pay the Innkeeper. 36 Gold Remaining.}
Carry on walking.
Look around the fair.
Look at the vendors' stalls.
Get Bat Balm.
Lose 1 Gold Piece. {To buy Bat Balm. 35 Gold Remaining.}
Get Spider Oil.
Lose 2 Gold Pieces. {To buy Spider Oil. 33 Gold Remaining.}
Walk on to the next stall.
Walk on to the next stall.
Leave the fair via Brass Street at the end of the square.
Give the Trolls 10 Gold Pieces.
Lose 10 Gold Pieces. {Give it to the Troll muggers. 23 Gold Remaining.}
Lose 1 Luck. {Luck Test.}
If you are Unlucky:
    Lose 5 Gold Pieces. {Bonehead finds a secret compartment. 18 Gold Remaining.}
Turn right into Brick Lane.
Examine the items on his tray.
Get Picklock.
Get Iron Key.
Get Glass Eye. {Useless.}
Get Clay Nose. {Useless.}
Get Brass Bell. {Useless.}
Lose 2 Gold Pieces. {Pay for 5 items. 21 or 16 Gold Remaining.}
Walk on.
Take the lamp.
Get Lamp with Twixle the Genie inside.
Put the lamp in your backpack.
Enter the shop.
Attack the undead creature with your sword.
Get Potion of Healing.
Lose 1 Gold Piece. {To buy Potion of Healing. 20 or 15 Gold Remaining.}
Get Ring of the Zombies.
Lose 4 Gold Pieces. {To buy Ring of the Zombies. 16 or 11 Gold Remaining.}
Go in the junk shop.
Buy the Helmet.
Get Helmet {Gain 1 Attack Strength during combat.}
Lose 5 Gold Pieces. {To buy Helmet. 11 or 6 Gold Remaining.}
Turn right into Back Alley.
Pull the handle to drink from the spout.
Gain 2 Stamina.
Swap your boots for the Elven Boots.
Get Elven Boots.
Gain 1 Luck.
If 2D6 > Skill:
    Lose 1 Skill.
    Lose 1 Stamina.
Go down the alleyway.
Climb up the ladder.
Climb over the wall and knock on door.
Tell him Harold Hogget told you to come.
You are wearing a silver medallion with a dragon's head etched on it.
Ask Marik if he can tell you anything else about the Gorgon's tomb.
Gain 2 Luck.
Help the old lady.
You possess and wish to drink Spider Oil.
Lose Spider Oil.
Lose 1 Stamina. {Rune Sword energy drain.}
Spider Hag SK7 ST6
Get Black Silk Handkerchief.
Get Silver Hairpin.
Get Ring of Entanglement.
Stop and speak to the man.
Lose 1 Luck. {Luck Test.}
If Unlucky:
    Lose 1D6 Items from: Map, Clay Nose, Glass Eye, Brass Bell, Iron Key, Silver Hairpin. 
You still want to speak to him.
Tell the Ranger about your quest to take down the Iron Giants.
Invite Goose to join you on your quest.

The Moonstone Hills
Draw your sword and fight them.
Gain 1 Luck.
If Current Skill = Initial Skill:
    Keep on walking.
Else if Current Skill < Initial Skill
    Sit on the throne.
    Gain 1 Skill.
    Gain 3 Stamina.
    Lose 1 Luck. {Luck Test.}
    If Unlucky:
        You do not have a war hammer.
        Lose 1 Luck.
        Lose 3 Stamina.
Lose 2 Stamina.
Enter the cave on your right.

The Gorgon's Tomb
If 2D6 > Skill:
    You have a jar of Bat Balm.
    Lose Bat Balm.
    Lose 2 Stamina.
Lose 1 Luck. {Luck Test.}
If Unlucky:
    Lose 2*1D6 Stamina.
Follow the left-hand tunnel.
You are wearing Elven Boots.
Gain 1 Luck.
Turn Left.
Walk on without touching the lever.
Gain 1 Luck.
You are wearing a Ring of the Zombies.
Lose 1 Luck. {Luck Test.}
If Unlucky:
    If 2D6 > Skill:
        Lose 1 Skill.
        Lose 2 Stamina.        
Walk to the iron-barred door at the back of the cave.
You do not have a gold key.
You do own a pickock.
Lose picklock.
Lose 1 Stamina. {Rune Sword energy drain.}
Cobrax SK10 ST10:
    Goose's arrows reduce Cobrax's Stamina by 1 every Attack Round.
    Use Luck after winning an Attack Round if:
        Cobrax's Stamina > 3 and Current Luck ≥ 7 and (InitialStamina > 16 Or InitialStamina + InitialLuck > 25)
If you did not lose any Attack Rounds:
    Gain 1 Luck.
Else if you lost one or more Attack Round:
    You are not wearing a snake's head amulet.
    You have a Potion of Healing.
    Lose Potion of Healing.
    Gain 6 Stamina.
Get 50 Gold Pieces.
You own a brass lamp.
Lose 1 Stamina. {Rune Sword energy drain.}
Gorgon SK10 ST10 {2 Attack Rounds only.}
{Note: There are 18 snakes.}
Get Rust Beetles.
Get Gold Idol.
Tiptoe around the gate.
Help Goose climb out of the pit.
Touch the orb.
Answer with your own name.
There were 18 snakes on the Gorgon's head.

The Iron Giants
Gain 2 Stamina.
If 2D6 ≤ Skill:
    Lose 1 Luck. {Luck Test.}
    If Unlucky:
        Lose 2 Skill.
Else if 2D6 > Skill:
    Lose 1 Skill.
    Lose 8 Stamina.
    If you have a Potion of Healing:
        Lose ½ of the Potion of Healing.
        Gain 6 Stamina.
Go to Goose's Aid.
{Drink Potion of Skill now.}
Lose Potion of Skill.
Restore Skill to Initial Value.
If you have a Potion of Healing:
     Lose Potion of Healing.
Else if you do not have a Potion of Healing:
    Lose 2 Stamina.
You are attacking with a Rune Sword.
Lose 1 Stamina. {Rune Sword energy drain.}
If 2D6 + 6 < 10:
    If 2D6 > Skill:
        Your adventure ends here.
Lose 1 Stamina. {Rune Sword energy drain.}
If 2D6 - 3 > Skill:
    Your adventure ends here.
Gain 2 Luck.
Lose 1 Stamina. {Rune Sword energy drain.}
If 2D6 - 3 > Skill:
    Your adventure ends here.
You are wearing a Ring of Entanglement.
Thrust your blade into the larger hole.
Lose 1 Stamina. {Rune Sword energy drain.}
If 2D6 + Skill + 3 < 16
    Your adventure ends here.
You are Lucky. {Use Lucky Charm Button}
Get 200 Gold Pieces.
Bronze statues of you and Goose are erected outside Hamelin Town Hall.

[If my calculations are correct.]