Petch's Fighting Fantasy rankings

[King Gillibran]

Legend of Zagor being my first Keith Martin book I read, being a latecomer to the series, I thourouly enjoyed it. I enjoyed its length, the castle that actually has everything a castle would and most of all the creatures. While many books provide ways for the strong bosses to be weakened sufficiantly with items that they are easy to overcome or there is a special way of instakilling or just kill you no matter what, Keith Martin does something that makes me adore his books. He makes you more powerful rather than weaken the bosses. Yes there are the Talismans and silver daggers but almost whatever you could face a incredibly powerful foe and all of the creatures building up. I love this book though I only ever play it when I have enough spare time for a few hours of Fighting Fantasy.

[petch]

50 - Island of the Undead

One day, I'm going to write about one of Keith Martin's books without using the word 'hub'. Today is not that day. Yes, we see our old friends the hubs back once again in this book, but Martin actually does something a bit different with them this time around. Usually, they're a means to make for quite an open-ended adventure, allowing you to explore areas optionally as you see fit. Not so here however. In order to complete this one, you have to visit essentially every area, and in a fairly specific order too. This makes that free-roaming hub structure here something of an illusion, with the solution being closer to the 'one true path' style of design. There can be arguments made for both sides as to whether this is a good thing or a bad thing, but it's a mixup to Martin's usual formula, at least.

There's an intriguing mystery at the heart of Island of the Undead. Piece by piece, you uncover clues to unravelling it as you traverse the eerily abandoned island, and there's a genuinely disquieting sense of unease and desolation about the place. It is this atmosphere, and this mystery, that keep the interest going despite that need to go everywhere and see everything which can make it feel a bit overlong.


49 - The Keep of the Lich-Lord

It's something of a shame that in Dave Morris' sole contribution to the series (co-written with Jamie Thomson, I should add) he wasn't able to showcase fully what a fine writer of gamebooks he really is. It's not that this is bad by any means; it has plenty of character and neat touches (one of my favourites being Kandagor popping up time and time again as a recurring thorn in your side). It would be a good choice as an introduction to FF, as it's extremely forgiving, with most of the side-areas being optional and multiple ways to defeat Lord Mortis at the end. Had this appeared earlier in the series, I probably wouldn't have noticed this as much, but 40-odd books in and in the midst of some very strong offerings, its simplicity stood out somewhat. Being honest, that's probably too harsh of a criticism in a series where the extreme difficulty of some of the other books is a lot more problematic, but having to purposefully take a more circuitous route to see all of the good stuff that's on offer isn't really how the best designed gamebooks should be played.

[CharlesX]

Slightly surprised Island Of The Undead with its fine writing is below Tower Of Destruction, perhaps that's because it's being a touch too long is a deal-breaker, or errors are more irritating to me than you, or you like the writing in Tower Of Destruction (and yes, I know Island Of The Undead isn't error-free either). I don't disagree Martin's writing can grate, I very much like his Stealer Of Souls which succeeds because it was an early and less ambitious gamebook with a playful feel, unlike his darker vampire gamebooks.

   Keep Of The Lich-Lord is too thin and reads like an eighties gamebook, so not unlike Eye Of The Dragon it is a bit misunderstood.

[kieran]

Jul 21, 2023 10:51:06 GMT petch said:

 Yes, we see our old friends the hubs back once again in this book, but Martin actually does something a bit different with them this time around. Usually, they're a means to make for quite an open-ended adventure, allowing you to explore areas optionally as you see fit. Not so here however. In order to complete this one, you have to visit essentially every area, and in a fairly specific order too. This makes that free-roaming hub structure here something of an illusion, with the solution being closer to the 'one true path' style of design. There can be arguments made for both sides as to whether this is a good thing or a bad thing, but it's a mixup to Martin's usual formula, at least.

Isn't the same true of the Ice Palace in Tower of Destruction?

[thealmightymudworm]

Jul 20, 2023 9:27:15 GMT petch said:

51 - Midnight Rogue

Not for the first time, I feel my critical faculties are deficient in allowing me to provide an adequate justification for the ranking of this one. Similarly to Battleblade Warrior, there's nothing especially wrong with Midnight Rogue, but then there's nothing that pops out as being particularly outstanding either. It's solidly middle-of-the-road stuff. What's made me rank this several places above Battleblade is the originality of some of the ideas on offer here. Its premise is pretty irresistible - a return to Blacksand is always welcome, and the opportunity to play as a miscreant makes for a refreshing change of pace from your usual altruistically-minded hero. There's an attempt to include an encumbrance rule, which makes sense in the context of the book - as a thief you have to remain nimble and light on your feet so you can't be weighed down by a backpack full of goblin's knucklebones, mouldy cheese or whatever other crap you happen to have come across. There's a nicely considered Special Skills system, although it can be rendered a bit moot as Davis generously includes a number of items that you can find that in effect allow you to claim a missing skill, so depending on your initial selection of skills and the route you take through the book, I believe it's possible for your character to accumulate the complete set of Special Skills, making you some kind of omnithief. A polymath of roguery. An ubermensch of nicking stuff. The main problem comes in the second half of the book, which moves away from the urban environment and into a dungeon setting. The end twist concerning the true nature of the place is quite a neat one, but the dungeon itself in execution is unfortunately fairly bland.

This has reminded me that after playing Midnight Rogue for last year's Fortieth Frenzy I was going to post about how annoying I found some of its idiosyncracies in spite of its plus-points. Perhaps I'll keep that for its own thread as intended, but since it's specifically mentioned I'd say that the encumbrance rule is (always) a mistake. 

In a lot of gamebook adventures it's hard not to notice that your character is scrambling over walls or up trees, heroically leaping across chasms and sprinting zig-zags towards goblin archers despite being weighed down by enough food for 20 meals, a stone hammer and a life-size solid gold warthog. A limit on the number of items might seem to make things more realistic. But a simple rule is not realistic: as here, where 7 provisions weigh/take up space the same as 1, whilst having a key, whistle, letter and map in addition to a provision and a potion means that it's impossible to pick up a second key without dumping something. I have more items than that in my pockets right now – what's the point of being a thief if you can't carry more than that? A more complex rule requires more effort to apply and wouldn't get away from the basic fact that junking items purely because of an item limit adds nothing to the excitement or atmosphere.

[sylas]

Jul 22, 2023 3:31:58 GMT thealmightymudworm said:

Jul 20, 2023 9:27:15 GMT petch said:

51 - Midnight Rogue

Not for the first time, I feel my critical faculties are deficient in allowing me to provide an adequate justification for the ranking of this one. Similarly to Battleblade Warrior, there's nothing especially wrong with Midnight Rogue, but then there's nothing that pops out as being particularly outstanding either. It's solidly middle-of-the-road stuff. What's made me rank this several places above Battleblade is the originality of some of the ideas on offer here. Its premise is pretty irresistible - a return to Blacksand is always welcome, and the opportunity to play as a miscreant makes for a refreshing change of pace from your usual altruistically-minded hero. There's an attempt to include an encumbrance rule, which makes sense in the context of the book - as a thief you have to remain nimble and light on your feet so you can't be weighed down by a backpack full of goblin's knucklebones, mouldy cheese or whatever other crap you happen to have come across. There's a nicely considered Special Skills system, although it can be rendered a bit moot as Davis generously includes a number of items that you can find that in effect allow you to claim a missing skill, so depending on your initial selection of skills and the route you take through the book, I believe it's possible for your character to accumulate the complete set of Special Skills, making you some kind of omnithief. A polymath of roguery. An ubermensch of nicking stuff. The main problem comes in the second half of the book, which moves away from the urban environment and into a dungeon setting. The end twist concerning the true nature of the place is quite a neat one, but the dungeon itself in execution is unfortunately fairly bland.

This has reminded me that after playing Midnight Rogue for last year's Fortieth Frenzy I was going to post about how annoying I found some of its idiosyncracies in spite of its plus-points. Perhaps I'll keep that for its own thread as intended, but since it's specifically mentioned I'd say that the encumbrance rule is (always) a mistake. 

In a lot of gamebook adventures it's hard not to notice that your character is scrambling over walls or up trees, heroically leaping across chasms and sprinting zig-zags towards goblin archers despite being weighed down by enough food for 20 meals, a stone hammer and a life-size solid gold warthog. A limit on the number of items might seem to make things more realistic. But a simple rule is not realistic: as here, where 7 provisions weigh/take up space the same as 1, whilst having a key, whistle, letter and map in addition to a provision and a potion means that it's impossible to pick up a second key without dumping something. I have more items than that in my pockets right now – what's the point of being a thief if you can't carry more than that? A more complex rule requires more effort to apply and wouldn't get away from the basic fact that junking items purely because of an item limit adds nothing to the excitement or atmosphere.

Lone Wolf handles this better separating Backpack items from weapons and gold. Negligible items are listed under Special items so you wouldn't have to count keys and passes. It's more organized but at the same time, it's just extra bookkeeping as opposed to the usual record ALL possessions in 1 box. One could argue either way if that's a good thing so it comes down to a matter of preference.

[CharlesX]

Ages ago I created an Encumbrance thread which has long been forgotten about and this discussion should remain here where it remains pertinent. I'd just echo what is mentioned in the Midnight Rogue thread - my guess is the Encumbrance system was more designed for the alternate Midnight Rogue, before being redrawn at Puffin's behest, which itself was more like other gamebook systems such as Lone Wolf, Knightmare and Fabled Lands.

   The way I played Midnight Rogue I remember often struggling to keep my encumbrance down to its maximum, perhaps because I wasn't sure whether to keep gold pieces as an item, things I wore, and so on. I still think it would make a lot of sense in theory to have an adventurer who doesn't inexplicably have the ability to carry more than his own weight in treasure without any problems, and concepts such as a maximum number of provisions you can carry, or a bag that will let you take an extra heavy thing or two (when the gamebook suggests you can only pick up a certain number) are concepts that are worth while. Those sorts of things rightly or wrongly transform an FF into more of a RPG. 

[a moderator]

Jul 22, 2023 10:03:18 GMT sylas said:

Jul 22, 2023 3:31:58 GMT thealmightymudworm said:

This has reminded me that after playing Midnight Rogue for last year's Fortieth Frenzy I was going to post about how annoying I found some of its idiosyncracies in spite of its plus-points. Perhaps I'll keep that for its own thread as intended, but since it's specifically mentioned I'd say that the encumbrance rule is (always) a mistake. 

In a lot of gamebook adventures it's hard not to notice that your character is scrambling over walls or up trees, heroically leaping across chasms and sprinting zig-zags towards goblin archers despite being weighed down by enough food for 20 meals, a stone hammer and a life-size solid gold warthog. A limit on the number of items might seem to make things more realistic. But a simple rule is not realistic: as here, where 7 provisions weigh/take up space the same as 1, whilst having a key, whistle, letter and map in addition to a provision and a potion means that it's impossible to pick up a second key without dumping something. I have more items than that in my pockets right now – what's the point of being a thief if you can't carry more than that? A more complex rule requires more effort to apply and wouldn't get away from the basic fact that junking items purely because of an item limit adds nothing to the excitement or atmosphere.

Lone Wolf handles this better separating Backpack items from weapons and gold. Negligible items are listed under Special items so you wouldn't have to count keys and passes. It's more organized but at the same time, it's just extra bookkeeping as opposed to the usual record ALL possessions in 1 box. One could argue either way if that's a good thing so it comes down to a matter of preference.

By book 8 there's a limit to how many Special Items you can carry, as well. That book also includes several 'you must take this, even if you have to discard something else to make space for it' Special Items, most of which serve no useful purpose, which really put me off LW's inventory management system.

Don't get me started on the times the books introduce something as a Backpack Item and then, when you have cause to use the thing, say 'if you have this Special Item...'.

[petch]

Jul 21, 2023 12:21:18 GMT kieran said:

Jul 21, 2023 10:51:06 GMT petch said:

 Yes, we see our old friends the hubs back once again in this book, but Martin actually does something a bit different with them this time around. Usually, they're a means to make for quite an open-ended adventure, allowing you to explore areas optionally as you see fit. Not so here however. In order to complete this one, you have to visit essentially every area, and in a fairly specific order too. This makes that free-roaming hub structure here something of an illusion, with the solution being closer to the 'one true path' style of design. There can be arguments made for both sides as to whether this is a good thing or a bad thing, but it's a mixup to Martin's usual formula, at least.

Isn't the same true of the Ice Palace in Tower of Destruction?

I...can't remember. I'll have a proper check at some point, but from memory, while you do have to visit most of the areas in the Ice Palace, it's a bit more forgiving about the order you need to visit them in, which is why Island of the Undead stood out for me more in this regard. Happy to be corrected if I have misremembered though!

[petch]

48 - Caverns of the Snow Witch

I'm starting to get to the ones I really enjoy now. This feels like a proper journey and takes place across three distinct acts, which I would summarise thusly:

Act the First: Concerning A Hunt For A Yeti And Venturing Into The Snow Witch's Lair
Act the Second: The Final Showdown With The Snow Witch And The Subsequent Escape From Her Domain
Act the Third: A Desperate Search For A Cure To The Death Spell Before The Very Life Essence Is Drained From Your Body

I should probably work on the brevity of my act titles.

Across the first couple of acts, the frozen wastelands of the Icefinger Mountains are authentically captured and the Snow Witch's lair, with its enslaved denizens and magical and demonic guardians is richly presented and fun to explore. The transition between acts two and three suffers from a bit of clunkiness - Livingstone doesn't really provide an adequate explanation in the text as to why beating Shareella in her rock-paper-scissors game defeats her for good, and surely he could have thought of a more creative way to introduce the key plot point of the infliction of the Death Spell than the slightly lazy reading a bit of paper nailed to a door. While I'm picking at the book, I should mention the difficulty at this point as well; Livingstone had been incrementally increasing the difficulty of his books with each new title, and this was the point where I think he can be said to have tipped over into outright harsh. You can face a Skill 10 opponent after the very first decision you make, and there's a mandatory battle against a Skill 12 opponent towards the end. But returning to the positives, it's in the third act that I think the book really shines. Revisiting some locations from previous books was a welcome touch - although Livingstone had referenced prior settings in the Background section of his books before, this was the first time you got to return to them in-game, and it really gave the sense of Allansia starting to take shape as a game world. The curse of the Death Spell eating away at you, with regular deductions to your Skill and Stamina, gives this part a real sense of urgency as you hunt for a cure and undertake the Healer's trials. The ending, when it comes, is something quite special. The victorious protagonists of Ian's earlier books had been materially rewarded for their efforts with riches of some kind in reference 400; here, although your character is given the opportunity to grab some loot earlier in the adventure, the true prize is simply making it out alive, and after everything they have been through, in the icy wastes and at the hands of the Snow Witch, burying a friend and suffering the effects of her final curse, Livingstone's simple yet effective prose as they watch the first rays of sunshine appearing on the horizon from atop Firetop Mountain is really rather moving.

[kieran]

Jul 22, 2023 15:21:03 GMT petch said:

he could have thought of a more creative way to introduce the key plot point of the infliction of the Death Spell than the slightly lazy reading a bit of paper nailed to a door.

I quite like that actually, something so significant relying on a simple twist of fate and how you unwittingly bring Redswift down with you.

[petch]

47 - Shadow of the Giants

The third and best of Ian's Nostalgia Trilogy (as literally no one apart from me refers to the three original Livingstone Scholastic books as). This time around, the references to earlier books in the series feel like organic elements of the plot, rather than being shoehorned in for fanservice. The Iron Giants come across as an original, genuine threat to Allansia. Livingstone showcased in City of Thieves his talent for writing a compelling city adventure, and your extended visit to Hamelin is the most effectively he has presented an urban setting since that first trip to Port Blacksand. Most importantly, though, Shadow of the Giants possesses an ingredient that has arguably been missing from his titles since, well, perhaps The Forest of Doom. Balance. Regardless of your initial stats rolls, you'll always have a shot at victory here, and better yet, gone is the linearity that forces the player to have to make very specific choices throughout to have a chance to win through, and there is room for freedom of exploration. Indeed, you only have to look at the solutions thread on this forum to see that there is much debate on what the 'best' way to beat the book actually is, particularly regarding your choice of weapon, making this very much a title that encourages you to play it your own way. One might almost think that they had got someone who knew what they were doing to playtest the thing.


46 - Sorcery!: Khare - Cityport of Traps

I think I'm missing something when it comes to Khare. In Wilf's rankings thread, it finished as the highest placed Sorcery! book. In the 2011 Fantazine poll, it was voted the third best book in the entire series overall. This makes my lower-half-of-the-table placement of it quite significantly out of whack with the prevailing consensus. Don't get me wrong, I do still think it's really good, but I have a couple of niggles with it that have prevented me from scoring it any higher. The first - and this one's probably quite unfair - is that it was published around the same time as City of Thieves, and in the battle of the lawless cities I feel it suffers a bit in comparison to Blacksand, which for me had a lot more character and colour. The other is that it doesn't sit quite right for me as a part of a multibook saga. To explain: I don't think anyone does the one-true-path gamebook better than Jackson (possibly Paul Mason aside), and I hope I don't look like I'm contradicting myself when I start singing his praises for it a bit later on. This is fine for a standalone gamebook, but in implementing such a prescriptive route to victory here that the player needs to follow to collect all of the necessary spell lines, it kind of makes it feel like the information and equipment you picked up in your adventure through The Shamutanti Hills was a bit inconsequential. The Crown of Kings is possibly as hard as this, but at least in that book there's more of a sense that you can improve your odds for winning depending on your actions from previous books in the saga, especially if you defeated all of the seven serpents. The difficulty spike is also quite jarring considering the more forgiving nature of the books immediately preceding and succeeding it.

I dunno. Maybe these things are either so minor they don't matter or are not even considerations for other players. Sorry Khare. It's not you, it's me.

[CharlesX]

Perhaps it isn't just me who isn't nuts about city adventures? I remember liking Khare more as a student than today, for memorable encounters like Vangorn The Murderer (is there a u in Vangorn? I can't be bothered to check), The Wight, the Brain Flayer and the Mantis Man, but Jackson's dark and unforgiving tone shines brightly in his Khare where Livingstone writes with less pretension and sometimes even linearity.

[scouserob]

Really enjoying this countdown.
Thanks Petch.
Your reviews, and the love you obviously have for these books, really highlights the depth of quality in this series.

We are not even in the top 40 yet and Kharé has made its appearance!

[sylas]

Jul 22, 2023 19:58:16 GMT kieran said:

Jul 22, 2023 15:21:03 GMT petch said:

he could have thought of a more creative way to introduce the key plot point of the infliction of the Death Spell than the slightly lazy reading a bit of paper nailed to a door.

I quite like that actually, something so significant relying on a simple twist of fate and how you unwittingly bring Redswift down with you.

and Stubb is saved by his 'Don't know, don't care. I just wanna go home' attitude.

[petch]

45 - Scorpion Swamp

Despite appearing so early in the series, Scorpion Swamp manages to feel completely unique from any other book thanks to its distinctive free-roaming, exploration focused design. It's something of a surprise to be honest that no other book tries something similar, as its system for altering what happens in each area depending on whether you have visited it previously or not is really quite clever. That's not to say it's perfect mind you - its constant need to break up the narrative with technical checkpoints can disrupt the immersion somewhat, but overall it's a fair tradeoff for such an inventive mechanic. I'd question the inclusion of the Brass Ring's ability to divine the good or evil intentions of every single creature you encounter though - it can make the book seem a bit handholdy.

Scorpion Swamp's smartest feature though isn't just that it provides a large open arena for you to explore, it's that it gives you three distinct quests that you can tackle within it, each providing their own individual set of tools for your use in the form of different spell gems so that it mixes up the experience each time. I like to think of each quest as giving the player some agency in selecting their own difficulty level for the game. The good quest is the equivalent of Easy Mode - it's a straightforward fetch quest and even provides you with a stats boost if you accept it without hesitation. The neutral quest is a bit harder, with you needing to explore the swamp more thoroughly and giving more of a limit on the variety of spell gems you get to choose from. And the evil quest, which is my favourite way of playing it even though the best ending you can hope for here is a chiding from SJ2 on the wisdom of your choices, is for the hardcore Scorpion Swampers, with you needing to take on the swamp's toughest denizens to obtain their amulets and sometimes having to make morally dubious choices to get what you need. The Evil spells selection is the most fun too - the Withering spell is incredibly useful and the Curse spell provides an entertainingly diverse range of results depending on who you use it on (probably the most satisfying being using it on your sponsor Grimslade himself). All this makes Scorpion Swamp well worth revisiting time and again.


44 - Sorcery!: The Shamutanti Hills

And so I move from one Jackson to another. When I was a kid, I didn't realise that there were actually two different Steve Jacksons, which was frequently very confusing as not only do they both have very distinctive approaches to writing and book design, but there's a gaping disparity in the relative difficulty of their contributions too. American SJ's books are obviously much more forgiving, with multiple victory (or part-victory) endings and many different ways to reach each one. OG SJ's books are typically fearsomely complex beasts with narrow and hard to find paths to the win. I honestly thought it was the same Steve Jackson with some kind of split personality, and I never knew until I started the book which Steve Jackson I was going to get, whether it would be kindly and benevolent old Grandpa Jackson (US SJ) or spiteful and demanding Uncle Jackson (UK SJ).

Funnily enough, The Shamutanti Hills is probably the closest bedfellow of US SJ's books that UK SJ wrote, at least in terms of difficulty. It's by a distance his most forgiving adventure, and even captures a bit of that freedom of exploration feeling from his American namesake's books too as there are many routes you can take through the hills and still emerge victorious. The death references never feel unfair, as he signposts most of them for attentive readers (there are various places you can pick up clues about the deadly nature of the Black Lotus, for example). He saves the toughest encounter for the end, with an excellent confrontation with a manticore. Jackson certainly does know how to design a good boss battle, and the climax really makes the most of Sorcery!'s deep and innovative magic system.

[CharlesX]

I haven't read Robot Commando so perhaps I could be schooled on whether it is similar to Scorpion Swamp - my understanding is it is free-roaming but with little or no changes in reaction when you visit previous locations? Yes, Scorpion Swamp was ahead of its time and reads like a good LucasArts game.

[a moderator]

There are definitely times when things have changed at locations if you revisit them - usually the invaders are more entrenched, so there's less opportunity to do anything.

[petch]

43 - Appointment with F.E.A.R.

File under 'This was good, could have been great'. The good is that Jackson's passion for the superhero subgenre shines through (this being much more of a niche genre back at the time of publication - if it was released these days, to compete in the market it would probably need to be a part of a minimum of a 20 book series as a subchapter in the wider F.E.A.R.verse brand, each requiring the reader to be intimately familiar with the other else they be hopelessly lost), and Titan City is vibrantly brought to life, especially with regard to the colourful array of supervillains pitched against you. Its ambition is impressive, with the initial selection of your superpower effectively making this a four-adventures-for-the-price-of-one deal.

It introduces an unusual additional game mechanic in the form of Hero points, which have no in-game use but instead serve as a sort of a tracking tool for how effective, prominent and just how much of an all-round heroic hero you are. I guess a high amount of points would make you Superman or Batman, while zero or one would make you, I don't know, that guy in the string vest out of the Mr Muscle adverts or something. It's here that I think the book falls down a bit. The inclusion of this mechanic suggests that the accumulation of Hero points to prove your heroic worth is a key objective of the book, and just think how good that could have been in a much more open-ended adventure where you can play through it in multiple ways with more freedom to conduct investigations and tackle the villains you like, and trying to beat your high score each time. Instead, Hero points are rendered almost obsolete by the fact that regardless of which superpower you select Jackson once again opts to funnel you down an extremely narrow pathway if you want to win, so much so that you don't care about the points, you're simply trying to find a way to survive. In effect, the potential of the book is hamstrung by its own intricacy.


42 - Beneath Nightmare Castle

I'm nearly at the halfway stage of my countdown and I've hardly mentioned illustrations. Considering how much of an important part of Fighting Fantasy its illustrations are, this probably seems like an oversight on my part but there is a reason for that. It's because if I feel like something of a fraud when it comes to being a literary critic, when it comes to artwork I'm out and out clueless. I mean, I think I know what a nice drawing looks like. I just lack the capability to competently analyse it to any degree. That's a nice line there. I like that tree. It has, um, branches.

The reason I bring it up now is because I think that Beneath Nightmare Castle's frankly odd illustrations sometimes actively undermine Darvill-Evans' fine writing. Take his description of a Snuff Hound, for example: 'a white, hairless, distended body, sharp talons on all four paws, and a face that looks distressingly human - except for the elongated nose that terminates in a snuffling, trumpet-shaped orifice'. Now compare that nightmarish description to the pic opposite reference 5, a weirdly childlike doodle with a suspiciously phallic looking protuberance hanging off the front of its face. The beast suddenly seems a lot less fearsome now I'm picturing it trying to flob me to death with its willynose. 

Artwork aside though, this is a crisply delivered slice of gothic horror, even if Darvill-Evans does push the nastiness a bit too far on one occasion for my tastes (the murderous urchins bit - I find myself struggling to root for a protagonist who has just slaughtered a bunch of street children, even if that protagonist is 'you'). Its highlights are its much celebrated death references - Darvill-Evans seems to take an almost sadistic pleasure in detailing the manifold horrific fates that can befall you, with a special shout-out going to the Stone-drop game ending, which is almost as long and detailed as 400's victory reference.

[CharlesX]

Beneath Nightmare Castle is a slick book which though good reads better for its atmosphere and off-the-path world than perhaps gamebook itself is, which is probably why Mrs. Giggles raves about it, Mrs. Giggles being a reviewer who judges by first impressions rather than overall quality.

[sylas]

I do agree that the artwork in Beneath Nightmare Castle is a bit weak in places. The entries in Beyond the Pit have way better depictions of the book's creatures fortunately.

[andrewwright]

Jul 25, 2023 15:52:07 GMT sylas said:

I do agree that the artwork in Beneath Nightmare Castle is a bit weak in places. The entries in Beyond the Pit have way better depictions of the book's creatures fortunately.

FYI Dave Carson wouldn't let us use his work in BNC for Beyond the Pit. I think he felt it wasn't representative of his recent work. Ian Miller wanted too much $$$ to reprint his pictures from Phantoms of Fear, so Graham Bottley got Jason Lenox to do the new pix for both these artists, which are great. I wanted Jason Lenox to help with Return to the Pit too, but he was too busy at the time with a graphic novel I think.

[petch]

41 - Sorcery!: The Seven Serpents

The stakes feel like they have been raised for the third instalment of Jackson's epic. Mampang Fortress looms threateningly on the horizon, and as the opening reference makes clear, you're now a long way from home and have the longest stretch of your journey through inhospitable terrain before you; 'You will find few friends here,' Jackson warns ominously. Worse yet, your journey is discovered and so you find yourself pitched directly against some of the Archmage's minions for the first time in the form of the eponymous seven serpents. It's a gripping hook that engaged me from the outset.

Unsurprisingly it is the serpents themselves who are the stars of the show here. Each one is memorable as Jackson successfully conveys them as being so preternaturally powerful that it seems like an achievement to survive an encounter with just one of the things, let alone all seven. Luckily, each has a weakness to give you a fighting chance. Some are more obvious than others (don't use HOT against the Fire Serpent, duh), but finding and exploiting the weakness of each feels genuinely rewarding and elevates this above the opening two chapters of the saga for me.


40 - Black Vein Prophecy

I know that for some this one represents the very best that Fighting Fantasy has to offer, and I can certainly see why - it sets an extremely high bar for storytelling with its complex tale of politics, war and fate that is delivered with thoughtful restraint. It is possibly the very thing that makes others admire it so much that I had some difficulty with, and that's the way it reveals its story. Opening as a mystery in which your character literally knows nothing as they have just awoken in a mausoleum, it sometimes feels so determined to keep its cards close to its chest and not reveal its secrets too early that I found it quite alienating in places and the tone distant and cold. 

It does however neatly sidestep expectations in the final act. Having driven a bus through your usual Fighting Fantasy conventions in several places previously (no Background, no initial stats generation, the requirement to fail an attribute roll), it does so again right at the end where, upon defeating the main villain and you would usually get your 'turn to 400' instruction, it instead launches you into an extended (and interactive) childhood flashback sequence. More than just a gamebook version of a film's post-credits scene, it's where the last few pieces of the puzzle are finally slotted into place. It's unexpected, beautifully written, audacious and serves as the perfect ending for an unusual and original book.

[kieran]

Jul 26, 2023 12:05:23 GMT petch said:

Unsurprisingly it is the serpents themselves who are the stars of the show here. Each one is memorable as Jackson successfully conveys them as being so preternaturally powerful that it seems like an achievement to survive an encounter with just one of the things, let alone all seven. 

This is so true. I remember feeling so proud at besting the Earth Serpent.

[petch]

Jul 26, 2023 13:01:59 GMT kieran said:

Jul 26, 2023 12:05:23 GMT petch said:

Unsurprisingly it is the serpents themselves who are the stars of the show here. Each one is memorable as Jackson successfully conveys them as being so preternaturally powerful that it seems like an achievement to survive an encounter with just one of the things, let alone all seven. 

This is so true. I remember feeling so proud at besting the Earth Serpent.

Ha, yeah that's the one that stood out to me too. Managing to lift it off of the ground kind of makes you feel all badass.

[sylas]

Jul 26, 2023 12:05:23 GMT petch said:

40 - Black Vein Prophecy

I know that for some this one represents the very best that Fighting Fantasy has to offer, and I can certainly see why - it sets an extremely high bar for storytelling with its complex tale of politics, war and fate that is delivered with thoughtful restraint. It is possibly the very thing that makes others admire it so much that I had some difficulty with, and that's the way it reveals its story. Opening as a mystery in which your character literally knows nothing as they have just awoken in a mausoleum, it sometimes feels so determined to keep its cards close to its chest and not reveal its secrets too early that I found it quite alienating in places and the tone distant and cold. 

It does however neatly sidestep expectations in the final act. Having driven a bus through your usual Fighting Fantasy conventions in several places previously (no Background, no initial stats generation, the requirement to fail an attribute roll), it does so again right at the end where, upon defeating the main villain and you would usually get your 'turn to 400' instruction, it instead launches you into an extended (and interactive) childhood flashback sequence. More than just a gamebook version of a film's post-credits scene, it's where the last few pieces of the puzzle are finally slotted into place. It's unexpected, beautifully written, audacious and serves as the perfect ending for an unusual and original book.

I do love this one though I completely understand why others do not. Admittedly, when I first had a go at it, I hated it. The setting was just too outlandish to me at the time when all I wanted was dungeon crawls, city walks and epic outdoor battles. I didn't get back to playing BVP until quite a few years later during my complete runs of each book in the series. And I'm glad I did because the second time I was more grown up, more open to new ideas, and more determined to finish adventures. It's about there that I started realising that BVP was not a book that favours a single read through but becomes more rewarding with each subsequent read as you go further into the mystery and the overarching plot begins to unravel in a wonderful way.

I must've gone through around 7 failed attempts before I achieved victory but the multicoloured scales thing was not something I ever found from playing legitimately which kind of ruined my progress during the later stages. I had to sift through each paragraph to find it as this was before the times of having the internet to solve everything. Once discovered, the whole adventure could be played through to the end and what a creative, fantastically imaginative finale I got! Black Vein Prophecy is beautifully written with many paths adding to the worldbuilding even if they are not on the 'true path'. As clever as the story is woven together, you do really have to search for its cleverness. While that is ultimately extremely rewarding, it's also not something that can be expected from everyone. When I read it nowadays, I find it more enjoyable treating it as a diceless adventure due to that one roll I have to fail, and I don't favour cheating, which is a bit of a shame. However, that is only a slight flaw for one of the best told tales in the series and one which deservedly ranks quite high up on my list.

[petch]

39 - Crypt of the Sorcerer

The problem with trying to do this little mini-review exercise now after I've been posting semi-regularly on the forum for the best part of four years is that I've already said a lot of the things I want to say about some of the books. Crypt of the Sorcerer is a book I've commented on quite a bit in the past, so I hope I can be forgiven for paraphrasing some of my past observations on it.

It's a book that takes Ian's existing foibles and magnifies them, inflates them like a zeppelin, pumps them full of steroids until they've gone all puffy like an 80s wrestler:

- A needlessly extensive required shopping list of illogically placed tat? Boom!

- The necessity to collect a number of pieces of absurdly, almost comedically esoteric pieces of information? Kaboom!

- A deranged difficulty curve exemplified by an outrageously overpowered final boss that almost displays a lack of understanding of a set of combat rules that he himself helped design? KABLAMMO!!! 

The thing is, despite its (massive, gaping) faults, I bloody love Crypt of the Sorcerer. Maybe it's because it's just so brazenly over the top it sticks in the memory. Maybe it's because it has so many bits in it that are just plain cool: the hot air balloon ride, taking on the seemingly unbeatable Gargantis, getting to ride on the back of a red dragon. Most likely, it's because Livingstone's passion for the project shines through in spite of the questionable gameplay decisions he makes; it's a sweeping epic that takes you all over Allansia, with every location you visit lovingly captured so that none of them feel like an afterthought, a whole menagerie of imaginative beasties to take on over the course of your adventure, and an ultimate adversary who comes across as a proper, genuine world threat. Its flaws are impossible to ignore, but for me it delivers admirably on some of the elements that make FF special too.

[paperexplorer]

I can't remember if I've written it here before, but I think by this point Ian just assumed everyone was cheating anyway, so he created a cool super mega boss to heighten the achievement, regardless that it's not a legitimate win.

As a kid who read more than played, I loved flicking through the book and seeing bosses with high skills. That made them more awesome in my mind.

The other thing I'll say is Razaak is a great baddie regardless of the impossibility of him. He has a distinctive look to him and it is evil and vile. He's definitely one of the most memorable villains in FF, maybe equal best alongside Balthus Dire for me.

[philsadler]

Jul 28, 2023 0:04:23 GMT paperexplorer said:

I think by this point Ian just assumed everyone was cheating anyway, so he created a cool super mega boss to heighten the achievement, regardless that it's not a legitimate win.

Never understood this 'argument': Ian assumed we all cheat and so he made an impossible book? Why? How would that affect the cheaters? Also, assumptions can be bad and wrong because a lot of people don't cheat and the book will be even worse for them.

Perhaps there is another 'argument' here - that Ian made a really shittily designed book with absurd difficulty because he had no idea what he was doing?

[CharlesX]

If anything gamebooks (like other fiction that is aimed at kids) should if anything befriend the reader with things like weak points, second chances and so on instead of ridiculously just assuming 90% of your readers will cheat. And Sir Ian did take that message on board in Shadow Of The Giants - long after the horse has bolted and gone to the other side of England.