sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,679
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Aug 12, 2023 10:22:34 GMT
Coming after Phantoms of Fear I was wondering why this was ranked so low then noticed it was number 9.
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trialmaster
Wanderer
Enter your message here...
Posts: 62
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Post by trialmaster on Aug 12, 2023 10:58:33 GMT
I think what you have said about City of Thieves illustrates that it is the perfect book for kids to be introduced to Allansia / Titan. It is fun to play and just oozes atmosphere, representing the type of world IL and SJ wanted to depict.
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Post by CharlesX on Aug 12, 2023 11:39:56 GMT
9 - City of Thieves To today's generation, with their TicTacs and their GameStations, a bunch of kids talking about books in their spare time probably sounds about as quaint and archaic as a black and white Victorian photo, but that is what we did. I'm wondering if you mean TikTok rather than TicTac? Anyway, City Of Thieves, wonderful atmosphere, not flawless. Is it in your top 2, your top 5 or your top 10? Even putting it at number 10 or below that would start a fight between Livingstone fans and those who think Livingstone is under-criticised (I could very easily be more colourful, but I don't want to run the risk of this message being deleted, and I might as well be respectful about other people's opinions).
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Post by petch on Aug 12, 2023 12:26:59 GMT
9 - City of Thieves To today's generation, with their TicTacs and their GameStations, a bunch of kids talking about books in their spare time probably sounds about as quaint and archaic as a black and white Victorian photo, but that is what we did. I'm wondering if you mean TikTok rather than TicTac? I was playing the out of touch curmudgeonly old grump for comedic purposes
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Post by petch on Aug 12, 2023 14:00:44 GMT
8 - Night Dragon
There are two types of person, as they say. Tea drinkers and coffee drinkers. People who like the taste of marmite and people who would sooner spread their crumpet with cat food. People who think Piers Morgan is an everyman voice of the public and those who think the desperate for attention human oil slick can shove his lowest common denominator rabble rousing soundbites up his fat arse. Add to that list people who find Night Dragon a thrilling, sweeping epic and people who find it an overlong, overly complex stats-heavy bore.
As regards that last one, since Night Dragon is in my top ten I'm obviously firmly in the former camp. I do acknowledge why others may find it to be the latter though. It's one of those later Keith Martin titles that requires you to visit nearly every location if you're going to be strong enough to beat the endgame, involves loads of combats and is very heavy on record keeping. Thing is, in this case I think all of this is fully justified in the context of the adventure Martin sends you on. And what an adventure it is. It's made very clear to you from the outset that the opponent you are going up against is the strongest foe the series has ever had you face, a primordial ancient evil whose name is whispered even in the chambers of the gods, a cohort of Death himself and who is feared even by the assembled might of the world's most powerful mortal dragons (and who just happens to take the form of a really cool massive dragon). The gods of Titan, as detailed in Titan, are actually referred to quite sparingly across the gamebooks - but here, Martin gives you a direct interaction with Kilanirax, the god of dragons, pressing home the enormity of the task before you.
It's this sense of scale which is why I don't mind all of that record keeping. The most prominent stat, at least in terms of the frequency with which you have to update it, is the Time Track. You're constantly instructed to update it for any activity that may take any length of time (actually unless I missed it I don't think the book is ever very specific on what particular unit of time the Time Track is supposed to represent). While some may find that intrusive, I thought it worked really well to give a sense of urgency, the feeling that you can't procrastinate too long as the Ancient is ever gathering in power as it awakens - even if in the end result it actually makes little difference to the Night Dragon's stats in gameplay terms. You're also needed to keep track of the many Attack Strength bonuses the various pieces of equipment you can gather afford you, but here again it feels appropriate for the adventure as by the time you face the Ancient you can have accumulated an effective Skill score of 18 or 19, so that you get the genuine impression that your character has far exceeded mortal limits. And that just makes you feel badass. Everything just all comes together to make the book feel like one of the most momentous, high stakes adventures you can experience in FF.
Oh, and I've said before that I'm no art critic, but I knows what I likes and that cover art is flipping awesome.
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,679
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Aug 12, 2023 14:15:40 GMT
Night Dragon is unexpected at this high ranking but a welcome one nonetheless. Some have groaned about it being too long due to the many drawn out combats and flimsy usage of the Time Track but personally, I love it. The visit to the 6 special locations is excellent and can almost be done in any order. The combats while tough are quite manageable if you go to certain places in the right order to improve your equipment and the often overlooked additions to your Initial scores during character creation give most adventurers a decent fighting chance to succeed. A very well balanced book with some epic encounters and badass items to collect. Perhaps not the most engaging when it comes to storytelling but enjoyable and epic enough to be a solid entry in the FF series.
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Post by King Gillibran on Aug 12, 2023 14:16:23 GMT
9 - City of ThievesOne of the many problems I've found myself having with the little exercise I've set myself of trying to do at least one writeup a day (also including noticing that I'm using the same words and phrases over and over again, and realising that my memory of some of the books isn't as good as it once was) is trying not to let myself be influenced too much by the views of others that I've either read on this forum or elsewhere, or by childhood nostalgia. I kind of wanted this to be as far as was possible a reflection of my own initial thoughts on the books before I was swayed by other opinions - that's proving tricky as in many cases I've read on here some really insightful thoughts that I hadn't noticed or considered, so it felt right to take these into account without looking like I'm just regurgitating the things that others have said in my own words. Looking back over my writeups, I think sometimes I've been mostly successful there, other times not so much! The thing with City of Thieves, being the beloved early classic that it is, is that it's been discussed to death and so there's probably nothing I can say that hasn't been said a hundred times already. And as far as childhood nostalgia goes, well this one is the biggie. In my final year of primary school, nearly my entire class (or the boys at least) got big into FF. There were a few class favourites: Vault of the Vampire was well liked, Scorpion Swamp was a fave as it was fun to map, and Creature of Havoc got a lot of discussion if only because to our eleven year old brains it was the hardest thing that had ever been invented and finding its solution was akin to cracking the Enigma code. City of Thieves though was generally regarded as the best. You couldn't call yourself a proper FF fan if you hadn't beaten it at least three times by taking each of the different early game routes through Key Street, Market Street and Clock Street. I can remember we used to consider ourselves rebellious by pulling out and playing our FF books during quiet reading time in class (in retrospect hardly the greatest act of rebellion as the teacher never seemed to mind us clacking away with our dice, but y'know, we thought we were cool at the time) and then at break times we would discuss our progress and strategies. To today's generation, with their TicTacs and their GameStations, a bunch of kids talking about books in their spare time probably sounds about as quaint and archaic as a black and white Victorian photo, but that is what we did. That said, it's really heartening to see some discussion on the forum recently from some of the parents on here enjoying the books once again with their own children. Perhaps there will after all be a new generation who are enraptured by FF's lovely words, and fall in love with City of Thieves as I and my childhood friends once did thanks to its engaging characters like Sourbelly and Fatnose. As George Orwell so very nearly once said, if there is hope it lies in the trolls. I might just leave this here. I'm conscious I haven't really talked at all about the specifics of what makes Port Blacksand so memorable and full of character, but perhaps in this instance the content is less important than what the book represents. Ian Livingstone caught in a bottle a piece of magic that captured the hearts and the imaginations of a generation. I sure must be an FF fan then! City of Thieves being one of the first I ever completed it was one that I have done so many times I cant even remember. Am I the only one who didn't consider it a proper run if I didn't do the deadly pill game down that norrow alley, or won the game for the Bays?
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Post by CharlesX on Aug 12, 2023 14:24:49 GMT
My bugbear about Night Dragon is the Night Dragon Skull fight, which feels anticlimactic and doesn't tend to kill my adventurers. I always used to go one adventures entire miles off the true path because I was enjoying the RPG (and consequently die as much as not), but yeah, positive camp for me. Night Dragon doesn't feel as long-winded as Island Of The Undead, or as dangerous as Green's Knights of Doom, and it just isn't Legend Of Zagor. Most of the encounters are memorable, there are lots of different points where you might die (instead of two or three in some Livingstone), and the shopping choices really enrich the adventure; I very dare not mention it in the same breath as Stephen Hand's Legend Of The Shadow Warriors, but I just did.
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Post by CharlesX on Aug 12, 2023 18:07:27 GMT
I sure must be an FF fan then! City of Thieves being one of the first I ever completed it was one that I have done so many times I cant even remember. Am I the only one who didn't consider it a proper run if I didn't do the deadly pill game down that norrow alley, or won the game for the Bays? Bays = sometimes. Deadly pill game = no, that's seriously risky. I'd go off path again and again just to maximise gold, and think fallaciously "1 in 6, that's never going to happen." It did happen, probably more than 1 in 6 times. Livingstone and other fighting fantasy kind of taught me not only logical skills in working out true path, but also when to give up and when the author was being unfair!
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,679
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Aug 12, 2023 18:27:49 GMT
I sure must be an FF fan then! City of Thieves being one of the first I ever completed it was one that I have done so many times I cant even remember. Am I the only one who didn't consider it a proper run if I didn't do the deadly pill game down that norrow alley, or won the game for the Bays? Bays = sometimes. Deadly pill game = no, that's seriously risky. I'd go off path again and again just to maximise gold, and think fallaciously "1 in 6, that's never going to happen." It did happen, probably more than 1 in 6 times. Livingstone and other fighting fantasy kind of taught me not only logical skills in working out true path, but also when to give up and when the author was being unfair!
1 in 6 chance is more than generous to win a lot of Gold. Nothing about it is being unfair. The rules are clear and the gambler doesn't cheat. If you played and lost, maybe you should have thought twice before attempting a quick get rich scheme. Being unlucky with the dice is not unfair.
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Post by CharlesX on Aug 12, 2023 18:37:08 GMT
Bays = sometimes. Deadly pill game = no, that's seriously risky. I'd go off path again and again just to maximise gold, and think fallaciously "1 in 6, that's never going to happen." It did happen, probably more than 1 in 6 times. Livingstone and other fighting fantasy kind of taught me not only logical skills in working out true path, but also when to give up and when the author was being unfair!
1 in 6 chance is more than generous to win a lot of Gold. Nothing about it is being unfair. The rules are clear and the gambler doesn't cheat. If you played and lost, maybe you should have thought twice before attempting a quick get rich scheme. Being unlucky with the dice is not unfair. I was more referring to Livingstone in general is not the fairest of writers, but I don't disagree with your point. My counter-point is, it isn't that much, however you work out a gold to £ ratio. If someone offers you the cash value of a car for a 1 in 6 chance of death, it really isn't worth it. I don't know about King Gillibran, but the deadly game wasn't really me.
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Post by scouserob on Aug 12, 2023 20:19:22 GMT
Unless you value your (gamebook) life at less than 100 gold pieces then playing the poison pill game is a bad bet. Especially as you can get all the gold you need to complete the quest elsewhere.
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Post by petch on Aug 13, 2023 13:15:44 GMT
7 - Legend of the Shadow Warriors
I've been trying to think of a way to simply outline what makes Legend of the Shadow Warriors such a good book, and for that matter what makes Stephen Hand such a good FF writer in general, and it's difficult, because it's not just one thing. He's kind of like the Lionel Messi of the FF team: he's basically good at everything about it. It's hard to identify a weakness in Legend of the Shadow Warriors, so I'll try to take it point by point. Let's start with the premise. The Shadow Warriors themselves are convincingly established as mythical bogeymen from childhood nightmares made flesh, complete with a poem in the preface that's so reminiscent of a dark nursery rhyme a grandparent may have told you when you were little that it evokes directly the fears of its target audience, and even for adult readers recalls that inchoate dread that kept you awake when you were small, like the fear that the Phantom Flan Flinger from Tiswas would burst through your bedroom door in the dead of night and custard pie you as you lay helpless in your bed (or insert your own childhood demon here!). Then there's the gameplay and the writing. There are just so many viable routes you can take to your goal, all of them packed with wonderful encounters. But it's not designed like one of those books where you are more or less able to go everywhere and see everything. It makes you think about what you want to prioritise, and it's so well balanced that one option isn't necessarily significantly more advantageous than another. In the opening town sequence of Royal Lendle for example, do you gamble with Bartolph for the chance for win more money so you can afford more adventuring equipment (and obtain his surprisingly handy loaded die)? Aah, but then you may not have time to visit both sides of the market. Do you pay off your tax debt to the (despicably officious) tax collector Quinsberry Woad or save your money for some of that very useful equipment and take your chances with sneaking out of the city, leaving your debt unpaid? Speaking of items and equipment, it's notable that the only item (I believe) that is completely mandatory for success is the Spear of Doom, needed to overcome your final adversary. And that's not because of a lack of items on offer; the contrary in fact, there's loads of useful stuff you can pick up. But again, Hand shows such a deft touch at balancing his book that there is always more than one way to negotiate a particular situation.
I suppose one of the greatest compliments I can pay it is that because everything is so beautifully evocative it made me stop thinking about it in simplistic 'what's the most efficient way to win this' terms and think about which of its wonderful scenes I wanted to encounter instead. Did I want to rescue Hustings from the Haggwort, or try to survive a meeting with the Mandrakes at the Circus of Dreams? Should I try to avoid having my body harvested for parts by Doktor Kauderwelsch, or risk being mesmerised into excavating the Pan-Terric Behemoth? It's hard to choose, as they're all great. And then, just when you thought it couldn't surprise or delight you any more, it all ends on an unexpectedly life-affirming note that feels so much more fulfilling than the material riches other books reward you with for success.
6 - Night of the Necromancer
If you want to make a statement, killing your protagonist before the adventure has even begun is certainly one way of doing it. Following on from Stormslayer with its creative calendar system that randomises your adventure, Green continued to innovate with this entry that has you trying to solve the mystery of your own murder. It's high concept stuff, both in theory and in execution, and continues to show the respect Green has for his audience by being unafraid to throw sophisticated ideas and language at them. If Scholastic continue to persevere with their strategy of trying to appeal primarily to younger readers, it would a huge shame that this will be the last time we will see an FF of this density and ambition (here's an idea: instead of trying to pander to a particular audience, why not give talented and passionate writers the respect and the agency to create what they want to create and let the audience decide if they like it, because if I read Night of the Necromancer as an 11 year old I'm pretty sure I would have loved it). Still, if this really is the last time we'll get an FF like this one, at least it would be kind of apropos because of its themes of death and resurrection.
It's to Green's vast credit that he takes a subject matter that's so challenging and makes it accessible. That's not to say it isn't complex though - structurally this is labyrinthine, and not too dissimilarly from some of the stuff I said about Legend of the Shadow Warriors above there are a whole range of ways you can beat it, except this time instead of collecting different items you can use to help you to your goal, you can acquire various ghostly powers or possess different mortal bodies instead. This fits with the theme perfectly, and Green makes this original approach work. There's an element of forgivingness to it too, as 'death' in the adventure is rarely the end; rather, if you fail you are whisked off to the Other Side of the veil in between the lands of the living and the dead and may be afforded a second or even a third or fourth chance to return to the mortal plane and resume your mission, but with each failed attempt you edge closer to the Gate that will doom you forever to the world of the damned and Green's superbly portentous prose is so effective in conveying the terror of the prospect of this finality that you'll want to avoid it at all costs, even though you know you may get another chance to try again. This edginess extends to the main adventure too, as your spectral appearance is liable to make most of the allies you would like to aid you flee in alarm, and at the heart of the mystery you need to solve is a terrible betrayal from a trusted friend from within your own court. Night of the Necromancer is almost relentlessly bleak and doom-laden (although there are mercifully a few lighter moments to break up the tension, like an unfortuitous run-in with an arrogant ghost hunter and his thug of an assistant in a tavern), but in its commitment to its highly original central concept it is also utterly compelling and fiendishly clever.
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Post by CharlesX on Aug 13, 2023 13:41:08 GMT
Gamebook writers, in fact all writers, should take notes from Hand's Legend Of The Shadow Warriors. Obviously the gameplay is a joy, it also has good consistency with no\very few errors, encounters and items are always tight with nothing wasted. The artwork is also impressive! One memorable scene is where you see the evil Mandrakes, appearing exactly as though they are human beings, then choose to hold up a mirror on another's advice, and see everything else the same but the terrifying plant creatures instead of people (like They Live). The entire gamebook combines darkness with light humour in a manner reminiscent of Carpenter or King when they are on the top of the game, I would say. Night Of The Necromancer - I personally wouldn't say the ghost hunter encounter was entirely light. If he were to capture you it has one of the darkest endings in all FF, which wouldn't be out of place in a Jackson FF.
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Post by slloyd14 on Aug 13, 2023 14:39:46 GMT
Unless you value your (gamebook) life at less than 100 gold pieces then playing the poison pill game is a bad bet. Especially as you can get all the gold you need to complete the quest elsewhere. Which makes me wonder how this game is profitable for the man doing it. Statistically, he has to pay out 100 gold pieces before someone dies and he gets to steal their stuff, but who is both desperate enough to risk their life for 20 gold pieces and also carries around a ton of valuables with them?
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Post by CharlesX on Aug 13, 2023 15:06:57 GMT
1. He has a special arrangement with necromancers\surgeons where he gives them corpse body parts. 2. He turns aside people who are very poor instead of accepting every Tom, Dick and Harry. 3. He has an elaborate loss leader system, where like some of the best charlatans he doesn't cheat for smaller amounts, but then suckers mugs into a high stakes game with odds of barely worse than 1 in 6 for big money - then he cheats.
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Post by schlendrian on Aug 13, 2023 21:16:58 GMT
4. He is, in fact, ridiculously wealthy and just gets a kink out of this game.
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Post by misomiso on Aug 14, 2023 11:17:35 GMT
7 - Legend of the Shadow WarriorsI've been trying to think of a way to simply outline what makes Legend of the Shadow Warriors such a good book, and for that matter what makes Stephen Hand such a good FF writer in general, and it's difficult, because it's not just one thing. He's kind of like the Lionel Messi of the FF team: he's basically good at everything about it. It's hard to identify a weakness in Legend of the Shadow Warriors, so I'll try to take it point by point. Let's start with the premise. The Shadow Warriors themselves are convincingly established as mythical bogeymen from childhood nightmares made flesh, complete with a poem in the preface that's so reminiscent of a dark nursery rhyme a grandparent may have told you when you were little that it evokes directly the fears of its target audience, and even for adult readers recalls that inchoate dread that kept you awake when you were small, like the fear that the Phantom Flan Flinger from Tiswas would burst through your bedroom door in the dead of night and custard pie you as you lay helpless in your bed (or insert your own childhood demon here!). Then there's the gameplay and the writing. There are just so many viable routes you can take to your goal, all of them packed with wonderful encounters. But it's not designed like one of those books where you are more or less able to go everywhere and see everything. It makes you think about what you want to prioritise, and it's so well balanced that one option isn't necessarily significantly more advantageous than another. In the opening town sequence of Royal Lendle for example, do you gamble with Bartolph for the chance for win more money so you can afford more adventuring equipment (and obtain his surprisingly handy loaded die)? Aah, but then you may not have time to visit both sides of the market. Do you pay off your tax debt to the (despicably officious) tax collector Queensbury Woad or save your money for some of that very useful equipment and take your chances with sneaking out of the city, leaving your debt unpaid? Speaking of items and equipment, it's notable that the only item (I believe) that is completely mandatory for success is the Spear of Doom, needed to overcome your final adversary. And that's not because of a lack of items on offer; the contrary in fact, there's loads of useful stuff you can pick up. But again, Hand shows such a deft touch at balancing his book that there is always more than one way to negotiate a particular situation. I suppose one of the greatest compliments I can pay it is that because everything is so beautifully evocative it made me stop thinking about it in simplistic 'what's the most efficient way to win this' terms and think about which of its wonderful scenes I wanted to encounter instead. Did I want to rescue Hustings from the Haggwort, or try to survive a meeting with the Mandrakes at the Circus of Dreams? Should I try to avoid having my body harvested for parts by Doktor Kauderwelsch, or risk being mesmerised into excavating the Pan-Terric Behemoth? It's hard to choose, as they're all great. And then, just when you thought it couldn't surprise or delight you any more, it all ends on an unexpectedly life-affirming note that feels so much more fulfilling than the material riches other books reward you with for success. 6 - Night of the NecromancerIf you want to make a statement, killing your protagonist before the adventure has even begun is certainly one way of doing it. Following on from Stormslayer with its creative calendar system that randomises your adventure, Green continued to innovate with this entry that has you trying to solve the mystery of your own murder. It's high concept stuff, both in theory and in execution, and continues to show the respect Green has for his audience by being unafraid to throw sophisticated ideas and language at them. If Scholastic continue to persevere with their strategy of trying to appeal primarily to younger readers, it would a huge shame that this will be the last time we will see an FF of this density and ambition (here's an idea: instead of trying to pander to a particular audience, why not give talented and passionate writers the respect and the agency to create what they want to create and let the audience decide if they like it, because if I read Night of the Necromancer as an 11 year old I'm pretty sure I would have loved it). Still, if this really is the last time we'll get an FF like this one, at least it would be kind of apropos because of its themes of death and resurrection. It's to Green's vast credit that he takes a subject matter that's so challenging and makes it accessible. That's not to say it isn't complex though - structurally this is labyrinthine, and not too dissimilarly from some of the stuff I said about Legend of the Shadow Warriors above there are a whole range of ways you can beat it, except this time instead of collecting different items you can use to help you to your goal, you can acquire various ghostly powers or possess different mortal bodies instead. This fits with the theme perfectly, and Green makes this original approach work. There's an element of forgivingness to it too, as 'death' in the adventure is rarely the end; rather, if you fail you are whisked off to the Other Side of the veil in between the lands of the living and the dead and may be afforded a second or even a third or fourth chance to return to the mortal plane and resume your mission, but with each failed attempt you edge closer to the Gate that will doom you forever to the world of the damned and Green's superbly portentous prose is so effective in conveying the terror of the prospect of this finality that you'll want to avoid it at all costs, even though you know you may get another chance to try again. This edginess extends to the main adventure too, as your spectral appearance is liable to make most of the allies you would like to aid you flee in alarm, and at the heart of the mystery you need to solve is a terrible betrayal from a trusted friend from within your own court. Night of the Necromancer is almost relentlessly bleak and doom-laden (although there are mercifully a few lighter moments to break up the tension, like an unfortuitous run-in with an arrogant ghost hunter and his thug of an assistant in a tavern), but in its commitment to its highly original central concept it is also utterly compelling and fiendishly clever. When you've finished the list please can you do a post with a full 1-62 or however many there are all ranked? Would be helpful! ty
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Post by petch on Aug 14, 2023 15:26:40 GMT
Sure, will do
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Post by petch on Aug 14, 2023 17:56:26 GMT
5 - Howl of the Werewolf
If you'll forgive me being a little self-indulgent for a moment - actually, who am I kidding, I've created a whole thread based on my own stupid opinions, this whole thing reeks of self-indulgence - I'd like to refer back to the opening post of the thread where I spoke about how I got back into Fighting Fantasy a few years ago after finding my childhood collection when clearing out my parents' attic. I didn't actually have the full collection, I was missing a few (but luckily for me I did have copies of the late Puffin run rarities that are now prohibitively expensive to obtain) and so went about getting hold of the handful of books that I was missing. It was therefore to my great surprise and delight that I discovered that the series had not in fact ended with Curse of the Mummy back in the mid-nineties as I had believed all these years but like Lazarus, Aslan and most of the characters in Eastenders it had miraculously been raised from the dead, and there were a whole clutch of lovely new books I'd never heard of before for me to get my teeth into. And then I read Eye of the Dragon and - let me think of a way of putting this kindly - my expectations were moderated.
That is, until I read Howl of the Werewolf. It's a book that signified hope that there really could be a future for the franchise if new titles could be as good as this, and represented one of FF's most talented writers at the peak of their powers - it's the sweet spot between Green's beautifully written but very unbalanced earlier works and his subsequent entries where he began to experiment with the format a little more, an example of a fairly traditional gamebook done as well as one can be done. There's nothing especially new about the theme, as while lycanthropy takes centre stage for the first time we'd seen Gothic horror of a sort from Steve Jackson, Peter Darvill-Evans, Keith Martin and Stephen Hand. But it's all about the execution. When Green commits to a concept, he pulls out all the stops, and so it's not just the fact that there are a whole multitude of horror staples to enjoy here, from sinister carnivals to headless highwaymen, it's that every one of them is presented with such skill and conviction that makes this so irresistible.
Green also adds two very important ingredients that were missing from the mix of his prior efforts. The first is balance. He wisely opts to give a much tighter starting Skill range in the initial character generation than is usual for FF, negating that problem that can render many of the other books either laughably easy or impossibly hard based on the very first time you pick up a die, and so it's a decent but fair challenge regardless of the path you take. The second is that he abandons the stringent narrow solutions he previously demanded, so this is another of those books where you can experiment with different ways to achieve the win. However, in what I think is my favourite thing about Howl of the Werewolf, Green adds another layer to the gameplay for all of the completionists out there, the folks who can't just stop at the main Star Wars films but need to see all of the spinoffs as well or who won't consider their PlayStation game finished until they've won the platinum trophy. While yes, you can win Howl of the Werewolf in lots of ways, you don't get a full understanding of the curse that has befallen Lupravia unless you obtain all of the silver daggers from the various members of the Cadre Infernal you can encounter, and who naturally are some of the toughest but most entertaining opponents in the book. It adds a whole new level of replayability to the adventure, and when the adventure is this fantastic, of course you'll want to go back again.
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Post by pip on Aug 14, 2023 18:35:49 GMT
He wisely opts to give a much tighter starting Skill range in the initial character generation than is usual for FF, negating that problem that can render many of the other books either laughably easy or impossibly hard based on the very first time you pick up a die, and so it's a decent but fair challenge regardless of the path you take. Agreed. As you can see from the stats in the solutions subforum, some books can range from impossible to easy just based on that one initial die roll for your Skill stat. Having your initial rolls determine whether you will play easy or hard mode is much better than if they determine whether you have a chance or not. I'm looking forward to the top 4, without rereading your thread I'm positive there were no mentions of three of the usual suspects so far (which are also all among my personal favourites), but I'm not sure about the fourth one, though I'll probably go "Oh! Of course" when I find out which one it is.
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Post by petch on Aug 15, 2023 12:15:40 GMT
4 - Deathtrap Dungeon
Some things achieve the level of being so iconic it's impossible to imagine a brand without them; you can't for example picture Disneyworld without Mickey Mouse or Nintendo without Mario. Ditto Fighting Fantasy and Deathtrap Dungeon. Say the words Fighting Fantasy to me and the very first thing that pops into my head is that Iain McCaig cover image of the multiocular Bloodbeast reclining in its pit of roiling, bubbling ooze. It's little wonder then that Deathtrap Dungeon has frequently been the go-to title when attempts have been made to promote the FF franchise to the wider public awareness, like the late nineties Eidos video game or the proposed movie as reported in the 28th chapter of You are the Hero. Why is that though? What is it that makes Deathtrap Dungeon so iconic? I mean, it's just a dungeon crawl right?
Well, it's one with an irresistible premise for a start - kind of The Running Man meets The Crystal Maze (although it was written long before either of those things appeared on screen, I should add). It's not bulletproof it has to be said, and I've seen some legitimate isues with it raised on the forum before (do the cheering assembled masses described in the Background really just turn up to watch a bunch of adventurers disappear into a hole in the ground, and would anyone really be greedy / desperate / suicidal enough to enter such a lethal contest of their own free will) but I think Livingstone earns enough artistic license for us to be able to just go with it. In execution, Livingstone has never been one for verbosity or flowery prose, but what he does excel at, at least in FF's early days, is using simplicity of language to conjure an immediacy to the action and a solid atmosphere that resonates with all age ranges, and this was before he lapsed into the slightly lazy habit of giving a bare minimum of description to underground corridors and rooms, so the chambers and passageways here are evocatively brought forth. Yeah, but still, it's just a dungeon crawl right?
Mmm, but it's also one packed with imaginative encounters at every turn, enhanced by McCaig's outstanding artwork. Livingstone's expressive words and McCaig's interpretations of them work in tandem to make the dungeon and its varied miscellany of monstrous denizens come alive in your mind's eye. And you're not just battling to survive against the fiendish creatures Sukumvit has infested the tunnels with, you also have to overcome the capricious and often sadistic tests the Trialmasters have in store for you at well-timed checkpoints that work nicely to break up the exploration and provides variety to the experience. And last but not least, there are your fellow participants, incorporated into the adventure masterfully and who serve a whole range of different purposes: as markers for your progress or evidence of the dungeon's perniciousness (oof, that barbarian's been impaled by spikes, poor guy...oh well, at least I'm doing better than he did), as unlikely sources of help (thank you, dying elf lady), as dangerous enemies (and Livingstone doesn't overdo using them like this like he did in Trial of Champions, and rather cleverly has the Ninja beat you to one of the key items you need to win so that you have to face him) and of course as a means of injecting the story with a dose of unexpected but very welcome heart (Throm. Poor, poor Throm). Okay, I get it, it's really good. But that doesn't change the fact that it's still just a dungeon crawl right?
Yes. Yes it is. But you know what - I think it might just be the dungeon crawl against which all others should be judged.
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Post by CharlesX on Aug 15, 2023 12:56:59 GMT
I like the way Deathtrap Dungeon showcases Livingstone's tropes in the best possible manner:
An old-school Dungeon crawl? Yes, but one with reasonable difficulty, a potion, allies, as well as enemies that are still generic but fearsome (Pit Fiend) or new (Mirror Demon and Bloodbeast). Instant-death illusions? Yes, but you can get a second chance if you've drunk a special potion. And the death scenes were well-written, before Livingstone lost interest in descriptive writing.
Left-right choices? Yes, but with different noises each way. Tests from a trialmaster? Yes, but with strategy-based choices about which test to take. I wonder whether Sir Ian was trying to replicate this success in his more cut-throat and simplistic Trial Of Champions, which I have to take a star off for its excessive difficulty, and maybe another star for making you collect as many gold rings as Sonic. Just wasn't so good.
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,679
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Aug 15, 2023 14:55:25 GMT
I think I know your number 1 and 2. But I also thought Deathtrap Dungeon would be number 3. Can't remember what it might be now.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Aug 15, 2023 16:49:29 GMT
He wisely opts to give a much tighter starting Skill range in the initial character generation than is usual for FF, negating that problem that can render many of the other books either laughably easy or impossibly hard based on the very first time you pick up a die, and so it's a decent but fair challenge regardless of the path you take. Agreed. As you can see from the stats in the solutions subforum, some books can range from impossible to easy just based on that one initial die roll for your Skill stat. Having your initial rolls determine whether you will play easy or hard mode is much better than if they determine whether you have a chance or not. I'm looking forward to the top 4, without rereading your thread I'm positive there were no mentions of three of the usual suspects so far (which are also all among my personal favourites), but I'm not sure about the fourth one, though I'll probably go "Oh! Of course" when I find out which one it is. I think I know your number 1 and 2. But I also thought Deathtrap Dungeon would be number 3. Can't remember what it might be now. I think I know the other one we're waiting for – a late Puffin classic.
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Post by petch on Aug 16, 2023 9:03:29 GMT
3 - House of Hell
If Deathtrap Dungeon is the early series book that provided FF with one of its most iconic moments, then House of Hell represents a time when Steve Jackson took the gamebook medium by the scruff of the neck and announced 'Right, now I'm going to show you what these things can really do.' It's a book that is as pioneering as The Warlock of Firetop Mountain in a way, as Jackson radically reimagines the gamebook in terms of structure and its expectations from its readership. He whips away the safety net; this isn't a book that's designed to be beaten on your first, second or third try, you're not going to get to the end and realise that you've only failed because you've missed a key item somewhere along the way and just need to go back and try exploring in an alternative direction to collect it. And that trusty four finger bookmark that got you through that final life or death decision against Zanbar Bone in City of Thieves? It's not going to help you here, as Jackson has littered the way with red herrings and entire sections from which there is no escape. It may look like you're going the right way (that bridal spectre mentioned we needed to save the nurse from the cultists didn't she? Ah, there she is in the basement, I must be on to something here), but no, you've just fallen for one of Jackson's fiendish traps. No, the only way you're going to succeed here is by learning from your mistakes, inching your way bit by bloody bit towards the solution with each playthrough, by sheer, rigorous trial and error.
It has to be said that this demanding form of design may not be for everyone. This isn't a title that you can whizz through in a couple of hours, it's a commitment. There's an argument to be made that employing such an uncompromising one true path solution neglects some of the potential of the medium, the ability to explore different routes to find your own way of winning, to experiment with different possible paths to success upon replay. I think there's room in the series for both types of book though. If you want something you can play around with a little more, you can reach for a Stephen Hand or Steve Jackson 2 title. If on the other hand you want a challenge with a meticulously planned puzzle to solve, OG Steve Jackson or Paul Mason are your men.
Trying to solve the puzzle that is House of Hell is onerous, sometimes gruelling, but it also makes the moment that you finally crack it immensely satisfying. The subject matter lends itself well to such a design too. In another series first, you're not a hardy warrior or experienced adventurer questing for personal riches or the gratitude of imperilled villagers, you're an average guy or gal drawn unwillingly into nefarious machinations and your ultimate goal is simply to survive, and given the situation you find yourself in, that shouldn't be easy. Conceptually this feels a lot more adult than what has come before, with some decidedly dark imagery of human sacrifice and devil worship, and again feels like Jackson expanding the boundaries of the series in terms of intended readership. It smacks of being a landmark title in FF history, in its diabolic but ingenious intricacy and in the widening of the series' appeal, and paved the way for more ambitious future titles from other contributors while remaining an extremely memorable and brilliantly engaging adventure in its own right.
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Post by Wizard Slayer on Aug 16, 2023 13:47:52 GMT
Having just read the Crimson Tide, a couple of my comments! 29 - The Crimson TideTaking place in the aftermath of the events of Black Vein Prophecy...A lot of people say this, describe it as a sequel etc but it actually overlaps with those events! There's a point in the book where you can ask somebody about the civil war. If you're 15 or over the answer talks about Poo-Ta being killed and Maior becoming king, but if you're 13-14 (as at the start of the book) the answer talks about Merezi and Maior on one side, Feior on the other, and the fate of the Isles still hanging in the balance. Probably the only FF to definitively take place at the same time as another. I get the impression that the correct code words are supposed to have been placed strategically at key points of your character's road to maturity, but unless I'm missing something, that didn't seem to marry up with where they actually are. I mean, I get why learning inner calm at the monastery would be such a moment for example, but why is one hidden behind the encounter with the Death's Messenger? Further, at the point in the text when you actually put the phrase together and apply its instruction, what you've learned doesn't really correspond to what is happening at that time. I've thought about this one, and as a few others have said I think the clues each appear at points of spiritual development: WHEN is after defeating Deaths Messenger, beginning to overcome your thirst for your enemy's death (compare to the Messenger's reaction and the increase in Ferocity if you lose). KING is when you decide to go the monastery. OFFERS is when you ignore Trahole and concentrate on reaching the monastery. SWORD is when you discover you've learned martial arts through being a good monk, not through seeking them out. TURN is when you pass the spiritual test. TO is when you turn away from your enemy instead of pursuing them. 198 is when an uneducated peasant child who can't even read can think clearly enough to solve a mathematical problem that a Puzzler couldn't! The result being that when you reach the crunch point, you know at some level what the real situation is and what you must do, even if you don't understand how you know.
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Post by vastariner on Aug 16, 2023 15:02:23 GMT
It's also meta-knowledge. We reading the books have knowledge that the PC would not. Similarly, the PC would have knowledge that we don't. (To take one basic example, in Sorcery, you lose 3ST for not eating. Surely an adventurer would be able to trap an animal/eat berries/whatever? But...the PC presumably recognizes that, in warped land, the "wild" food is not safe.)
So The Crimson Tide code words represent the PC becoming more intelligent generally. E.g. by going to one particular place, you would pick up a whole load of knowledge, wisdom, and background that the book itself will not be able to explain to you.
And therefore if you pick up all of the code words, it is a symbol of you having picked up enough about all of the world around you to suss what is wrong. The very last one, the most difficult one, wrapping it up, on the basis that, if you're clever enough to work out what it is, you're clever enough to have picked up the clues from the rest of your life. In essence it's shorthand for "are you politically savvy?"
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Post by pip on Aug 16, 2023 15:21:59 GMT
Not much to add to your great reviews of Deathtrap Dungeon and House of Hell, which I reckon are must-reads for whoever wants to get into FF. Two milestone books released within the first ten books of the series. Early on, DD showed how great a gamebook could be by following the traditional formula, and HoH showed how much you could also bend the unwritten rules and somehow come up with a different beast. Like you said, HoH is amazing in that regard, in that, apart from some light rules amendments (the Fear stat, and starting your adventure unarmed), it mostly uses the tools already made available from the start, but makes a point to use them differently.
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,679
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Aug 16, 2023 16:11:31 GMT
The beauty of House of Hell is that the design of the house is massive but the atmosphere makes it very claustrophobic.
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