sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,679
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Sept 4, 2023 17:10:25 GMT
There are some individual pieces of the Scholastic artwork that would be good if they weren't poor imitations of the original artwork, though he exception to this is Caverns of the Snow Witch, where the art is far better than the original. The Yeti in particular is a good example of this as it looks like a large, threatening, violent monster and not a confused cuddly toy. I do like the art in Crystal of Storms but the style doesn't really fit fighting fantasy, it is more suited to poster art and more esoteric works. If Black Vein Prophecy and The Crimson Tide were ever reprinted though, I'd quite like to see that artists take on their art. I've grown to like the distinct woodcut art but I do think it's very divisive. Robert Ball's art is miles better than Vlado's and at least his are not rushed imitations, but I still prefer the original.
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,679
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Sept 4, 2023 17:13:10 GMT
Interesting how Port of Peril has a decent number of votes while Gates of Death has none. Apart from the solid Quag-Shugguth art, the rest in both books are equally bad.
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Sept 4, 2023 18:05:25 GMT
Yep. That one is a real shocker. The battle at the prison fortress is part of the buildup to the final showdown, and always was a favourite part of the book, for me. It's a battle - you need to get a sense of the numbers of enemies and what they look like. Look at the background detail in the original. Banners on the walls, as well as a catapult by the look of it, too. A Lizardman riding a styracosaurus shouting a battle cry whilst carrying some sort of grisly battle-standard. Next to him another hobgoblin running to join the fray. Now compare and contrast. Can you tell that the lizardman in the background is even on a dinosaur? Because I can't. What are those flakes of white at the bottom right hand corner? Are they rocks or dust kicked up? And why has he not bothered to put pupils in the creatures' eyes? Did he do that with the other illustrations? What a missed opportunity so many of these Scholastic books were. They could have given up-and-coming artists a chance to get their art out on the shelves in the major booksellers. Having seen what previous artists had done, the new illustrator could work to outdo the old one. And on occasion, parts of the books previously unillustrated could have been illustrated. [eg the sulphur ghost mentioned elsewhere]. Ian Livingstone strikes me as the kind of man who enjoys working alongside artists - I bet he would have been happy to give a briefing on what he wanted drawn. Maybe they were paying the artists peanuts and /or setting a ridiculously tight deadline?, because otherwise this has 'zero fucks given' written all over it both by the illustrator and whoever was accepting it and printing it.
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Post by CharlesX on Sept 4, 2023 18:10:45 GMT
Interesting how Port of Peril has a decent number of votes while Gates of Death has none. Apart from the solid Quag-Shugguth art, the rest in both books are equally bad. In my opinion the artwork style, though below-average from most objective judgment, works better on some of the distinctive and unique beings in Port Of Peril. Despite Gates Of Death having more references than most FF I do not remember most of the encounters very well (other than the bum-faced monster). There's nothing baseless about disliking art because the subject matter is not merely generic but bland or in this case terrible.
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Sept 4, 2023 18:24:52 GMT
IIRC Ian said at the Fest that he 'enforced the matter' (or something to that extent) and we got what we got for the 2 new books. So bravo to Ian! You DO recall correctly. And he rightly got a round of applause for it. .... at least we seem to be heading in the right direction now. And thank goodness for that. I was on the brink of thinking that they cannot get the human beings to illustrate the books to an acceptable standard, then sod it - get the AIs to do the job.
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,679
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Sept 4, 2023 19:44:34 GMT
IIRC Ian said at the Fest that he 'enforced the matter' (or something to that extent) and we got what we got for the 2 new books. So bravo to Ian! You DO recall correctly. And he rightly got a round of applause for it. .... at least we seem to be heading in the right direction now. And thank goodness for that. I was on the brink of thinking that they cannot get the human beings to illustrate the books to an acceptable standard, then sod it - get the AIs to do the job. It was hilarious when the applause died down and everyone was expecting a more detailed answer about how it happened but Ian just stood there with that 'What? That's literally all that happened' attitude about him.
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Post by CharlesX on Sept 4, 2023 20:00:03 GMT
You DO recall correctly. And he rightly got a round of applause for it. And thank goodness for that. I was on the brink of thinking that they cannot get the human beings to illustrate the books to an acceptable standard, then sod it - get the AIs to do the job. It was hilarious when the applause died down and everyone was expecting a more detailed answer about how it happened but Ian just stood there with that 'What? That's literally all that happened' attitude about him. I wish I could win arguments that way. "Bruh, your last two things sucked". "Aright, we'll up our game". Aaand I wasn't there..
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Sept 7, 2023 17:51:35 GMT
I wish I could win arguments that way. "Bruh, your last two things sucked". "Aright, we'll up our game". Aaand I wasn't there.. My strong impression is that Livingstone was very unsure (to say the least) of the direction the art was going from the very start of the Scholastic series. In one of the previous FF-Fests, when commenting on the illustrations in general, he said something like '... and we will have to trust that they know their audience' [or 'customers', I forget exactly]. Am so glad he put his foot down and got his way.
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Post by paperexplorer on Sept 8, 2023 1:52:35 GMT
Okay here is a hypothetical
If you were the person in charge of the FF reprints at scholastic and you had the artists that did secrets of salamonis and shadow of the Giants at your disposal (forget Krizan), which books would you have the artwork re-done for and which would have you kept with the originals?
I think I would have kept the original art on all books except The Forest of Doom and Caverns of the Snow Witch.
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Post by hallucination on Sept 8, 2023 7:23:02 GMT
If i was that person at Scholastic, and had those excellent illustrators lined up, I’d probably have the lot re-done. Why not? The new art (especially since, in this scenario, will be very worthwhile) will likely be a selling point for us who already have the original set of books (and would still be good for the new generation of adventurers). Kind of a win-win. I’d also have the book formatting/physical layout seen to, but that’s less important
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Sept 8, 2023 14:37:53 GMT
Okay here is a hypothetical If you were the person in charge of the FF reprints at scholastic and you had the artists that did secrets of salamonis and shadow of the Giants at your disposal (forget Krizan), which books would you have the artwork re-done for and which would have you kept with the originals? I think I would have kept the original art on all books except The Forest of Doom and Caverns of the Snow Witch. What about asking Malcolm Barter if he wanted to redo it? IIRC he was working to a really tight deadline, and under the circumstances I reckon he did a very good job. Likewise Kevin Bulmer stepped in at the last moment for Freeway Fighter. Sadly he is no longer with us so he cannot be asked if he fancies another [more leisurely] stab at the work. Peter Andrew Jones is a great artist [just look at his colour covers over the years!] but I have always felt the interior art of Starship Traveller was lacking. Again - was it a rush job (like the rest of that book feels)?
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,679
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Sept 8, 2023 14:38:05 GMT
I would've had Forest of Doom redone by Malcolm Barter and either Tazio or Mike to do all the Sorcery! art. The rest are fine with the original art.
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Sept 8, 2023 14:40:21 GMT
I would've had Forest of Doom redone by Malcolm Barter .. Ha! We had the same thought at the same time, it seems!
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,679
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Sept 8, 2023 15:03:06 GMT
Oddly enough, if Freeway Fighter and Starship Traveller do get re-released, I'd like Iain McCaig to do Freeway (finish what he started all those years back) and Vlado to do Starship but give him more time and not in grayscale (his sci-fi art is decent).
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Sept 8, 2023 16:40:53 GMT
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Post by CharlesX on Sept 8, 2023 16:41:19 GMT
If i was that person at Scholastic, and had those excellent illustrators lined up, I’d probably have the lot re-done. Why not? The new art (especially since, in this scenario, will be very worthwhile) will likely be a selling point for us who already have the original set of books (and would still be good for the new generation of adventurers). Kind of a win-win. I’d also have the book formatting/physical layout seen to, but that’s less important If those artists want to do that, if they're paid enough which might be more than their earlier work, but the biggest if is the younger, comic style evident in SOS and SOTG would entirely fit the FF they're writing for. In my opinion art for these two FFs is distinctly above-average but not brilliant. I would say though having their artwork on poor-quality paper and so on is like champagne in a plastic cup (I'm saying changing the quality of paper might be a bigger deal-breaker for me than getting these artists to return). For me proofreading\playtesting\errors are also fundamental.
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