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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 13, 2013 23:58:24 GMT
From TUFFF... Well well well let's write this up before I go back to the stone age!
I'm so motivated I must be right out of a Dilbert strip! Les sept serpents, as it is called in French, was the one I had the least interest in when I was a young lad; must have been a cover thing. And I think, if I'm not a victim of my faulty memory, that it was the last one that I acquired. It's certainly in fine shape, almost unread (but the adventure sheet tells me otherwise). So for awhile, it had an aura of mystery about it, like, exactly what happened between Kharé and Mampang? Well now I know, having played it thoroughly recently. Depending on how you fare with the titular serpents, the book can either be a bit on the dull side, similar to Shamutanti, or full of epic goodness like the Crown of Kings... But I'm getting ahead of myself. First, cover comparison time. I'm going to be a bit sacrilegious here and say that I prefer the new Mel Grant cover a bit more than the one by John Blanche. The Blanche one is fine, don't get me wrong, but between Fenestra and the Seven Serpents, I think our snake buddies are more appropriate. Plus they look real good with a simple presentation. Inside: Blanche's illustrations are a mixture of awesome and not so awesome but I like his style most of the time. I like how he makes his illustrations looks like sculptures. That's texture. In my French edition, the illustrations are once again mirrored. Don't know why. The brightness seems at the same level, though, for once.
Funny observation, in that same French edition, there is, above section 377, a small illustration importation. There is a sword that does not belong there. I believe it's from the Lone Wolf series, done by Gary Chalk or very close to his style. Now, why it's there, I have no clue. It's not as if there wasn't a good sword illustration made by Blanche in the very same book... So, story-wise, Seven Serpents is going to be quite the ordinary, perhaps even a dull trek through the vast emptiness if you don't meet lots of snakes. But if you do so, you might end-up penalized so why not set your goal high? Going for the big seven offers a thrilling story full of exciting encounters. Having the serpent's ring and knowledge of their weaknesses makes it even more thrilling. Okay, I know I'm ranting here, but take the Earth Serpent encounter, that's just amazing the way it evolves. The way the Moon Serpents snuff the light? The sudden bursting-through of the Air Serpent? The Time Serpent's hypnotizing head movement? ...that I imagine somehow similar to the giant baby's head movement at the end of Eraserhead? Terrifying. On the other hand if you do go for the big seven, expect the book to become very hard. Going through it alive is hard enough, but finding the snakes and succeeding is almost impossible. Well, not for veteran, perhaps, but any newcomers expecting to get through with a major success must anticipate having their hopes utterly crush. I don't believe it's possible to go through the book without making a fatal mistake, a mistake that's going to make Mampang a lot harder .
...but that's part of the fun, of course. Well that's all I can think of right now. See you in Low Xamen very soon! Speak in extremes, it will save you time.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 13, 2013 23:59:37 GMT
From TUFFF... I don't believe it's possible to go through the book without making a fatal mistake, a mistake that's going to make Mampang a lot harder. Interesting - which mistake are you referring to?
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 14, 2013 0:00:49 GMT
From TUFFF... Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't mean there's a fatal mistake made by Jackson in the book, I meant it's nearly impossible for the player not to make a fatal mistake at one point or another that will deprive him from success and that special "incognito" status while roaming Mampang.
Should have been clearer I guess, I wrote it late yesterday, everything tends to fuzz together. I'll blame my French root! lol Speak in extremes, it will save you time.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 14, 2013 0:02:13 GMT
From TUFFF... Ah I see. I'm not sure it's that near impossible though. Although I think I nearly always miss out the Fire Serpent. And until someone on the official forum had advised me otherwise I thought it was impossible to meet the Moon Serpent unless you had the borrinskin boots from The Shamutanti Hills.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 14, 2013 0:03:03 GMT
From TUFFF... I'm pretty sure it's not impossible to do the book with a perfect score, but if anyone's unlucky like me, than it is: It's like the lottery; it's possible to win it, usually when you're old and you've played all your life! For the Moon Serpent, I found it without the boots (never found those boots) but all the same, he's really easy to miss. Plus, if you were an adventurer going through the Bakland and using real logic, as oppose to game logic, would you really go towards the Deathwraith? Especially considering you would have fought a nasty one in Kharé. Hiding the Moon Serpent behind that encounter is pretty nasty, but of course, perfectly legal game wise. And it does make the adventure more exciting, I guess. Speak in extremes, it will save you time.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 14, 2013 0:03:37 GMT
From TUFFF... ***GO ON, SPOILER YOURSELF*** The trek across the Baddu-Bak Plains is completely different to the stay in Kharé, both in terms of its atmosphere and its geography. The shift of location is important in a saga such as this (will there ever be another I wonder...), as variety is necessary to keep each book feeling distinct from its sisters. After the hubbub and bustle of Kharé everything seems so much lonelier, with most of the encounters being with wildlife rather than characters. This emptiness does have the consequence of being dull at times and is not helped by having a largely featureless landscape, but thankfully such moments don't last for too long. Of the characters you do meet, the daft centaurs are great fun, although I would've preferred a bit of choice as to how they can be tricked. Steve Jackson's idea of casting the fake Luck Spell on them is amusing, but is imposed on the reader. The mystical Shadrack is a very perfunctory, generic character who you are given no choice to interact with; the whole thing is just rattled out onto a single (albeit long) reference. The caravaning Black Elves are better served as you are given three replies to give them, opening the encounter up effectively. (I love Oolooh's caravan, with its shelves of weird nik-naks. This time there are cues in the text to let us know what most of them are. I'd love a galehorn on my living room wall). The concept of the serpents themselves is a simple enough idea, giving each one an elemental/natural power. The race to kill as many of these reptilian tattle-tales as possible before the end fits in perfectly with the epic feel of the Sorcery! series. Each serpent encounter is given enough variation to make the discoveries seem fresh - the way that their powers are used helps enormously here. The way that the Sun Serpent is handled adds a satisfying, subtle twist to your hunt. The difficulties in finding and overcoming each serpent is nicely varied too, although it's a shame that one of them is so easy to find that it's actually unavoidable. John Blanche offers us some more great illustrations, which aren't quite up to the heights of Kharé, but the Baddu-Beetle, the ferryman, the ruined temple and the final moody view of distant Mampang all have his characteristic zing.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 14, 2013 0:04:54 GMT
From TUFFF... After a short hiatus I am back on the Sorcery! series. I just read Seven Serpents. I think in any kind of series the middle books are hardest, in terms of driving the storyline and keeping the reader interested. Happily I found this an enjoyable book. The encounters are nicely varied and unpredictable, there is also a lot of choice in terms of movement - I enjoyed mapping the possible routes. Huge credit to the artist as well, his style is like a cartoonists cariciture which is perfect for the surreal fantastical nature of the setting. The plot is slightly odd, the Seven Serpents are supposedly trying to deliver a message to Mampang yet rather than getting there they seem more interested in hanging about and trying to waylay you. Also I didn't quite see why it matters if I kill six serpents or zero, surely it only needs 1 to deliver the warning. That aside I quite enjoyed the actual encounters with them. My first game I took a difficult route across the plains and arrived at the forest on just 3 stamina points. Consequently I was killed and eaten by Snattacats. On my second try I fared somewhat better, though I did fail my luck-test against a Strangle-bush meaning Libra had to come save my butt from extinction, I made it through to the end but only killed 2 serpents (wind and time). Since this was quite a weak score I will probably go back and try again. My FF reviews: z3.invisionfree.com/Orc__Goblin_Warpath/index.php?showtopic=29374
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 14, 2013 0:06:00 GMT
From TUFFF... It does indeed only take 1 to deliver a message, which is why you have to kill all 7 to get the anonymity bonus in the 4th one.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 14, 2013 0:07:03 GMT
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 14, 2013 0:08:27 GMT
From TUFFF... My best answer is gameplay and story segregation. I suppose there's no narrative sense in being penalised for not killing many serpents but gamewise, it's trying to motivate you to kill as many of them as possible. The thing that always annoyed me was that if you kill 6, it lets you know that the Sun Serpent has been captured so if that's the one you didn't kill, you can treat it as getting all 7. Why isn't that option available for all the numbers? If you killed 2, it should let you treat it like killing 3 if neither of your two was the Sun Serpent.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 14, 2013 0:09:04 GMT
From TUFFF...
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 14, 2013 0:11:01 GMT
From TUFFF... First off, let me just say that I love this book. It's creepy and atmospheric, and the Serpents themselves are very memorable. But it seems like it's very rushed towards the endings. It's a nice touch to have two serpents in each of the first three environments, and one more at the end, 'cos this spreads them out nicely. But after that superbly written and plotted trek through the Baklands, the Forest Of Snatta bit seems to be rather short, the Lake Ilklala bit positively perfunctory, and if you blink, you might miss the swamp section. It reads and plays like the author suddenly realised he had a deadline, and wrote the latter locations as quickly as he could. This book could easily have been another 150-odd references longer. It's impossible to miss out on two of the Serpents, too, which is a pity. More bizarrely, why has a third been trapped? A wasted opportunity for an encounter there, unless you get an option which leads to your releasing him. And if any Serpent encounter should be compulsory, it should be that one. I also find it very difficult to navigate the Forest Of Snatta, which seems to have shifting geography. I'd love to see a map of the place, because I'm not convinced the paths all tie up properly. I do love that each Serpent has a secret and a weakness, though. A pity that the book actually tells you some of them arbitrarily, though - Shadrack should have told us the Moon Serpent's weakness, not the Air Serpent's. Or else Renfren should have let it slip if you spared his life. Still, in terms of atmosphere and imagination, this book excels. The Baklands section in particular is filled with classic encounters, including the Baddu-Beetle, the Temple To Throff, and (my personal favourites) the Seven Spirits. Has there ever been a more surreal, nightmarish way to die than by reciting the Arbil Madarbil rhyme?
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 14, 2013 0:12:05 GMT
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 14, 2013 0:13:45 GMT
From TUFFF... I think the reasoning is that if you get them all apart from Sun, the archmage won't get the message, but if you miss Sun and at least 1 other, he'll still get the message so you don't deserve any extra bonus. [/quote Sure but if you get 2 serpents and the Sun serpent is trapped, that's only 4 serpents getting back to the Archmage. Why are you penalised as if 5 had?
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 14, 2013 0:14:23 GMT
From TUFFF... I get the impression it's meant to be you feel so unconfident that you only managed to get 2 (you won't know about the Sun one after all) that you suffer a stat penalty. Of course, that doesn't explain why you would get the biggest stat bonus if you got 6 but missed the Sun, as you wouldn't know all have been taken care of. Steve would have been better giving you the same stat bonus as if you got 6, but also giving you the benefit of anonymity for Crown of Kings.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 14, 2013 0:15:33 GMT
From TUFFF... That would have made more sense, yeah.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 14, 2013 0:17:03 GMT
From TUFFF... Well last night I played it a third time... and this time got all seven! From previous plays I had already located 4, so it was just a question of using my map to guess the remaining 3. Even so the Sun Serpent nearly caught me out, I could easily have missed him (not that it matters if you get all the rest). For what its worth I think finding the Sun Serpent trapped is a nice twist. I rather like the idea that your enemies have enemies as well. YOU cannot strut around the forest with impunity and as it happens neither can they.
I also find it very difficult to navigate the Forest Of Snatta, which seems to have shifting geography. I'd love to see a map of the place, because I'm not convinced the paths all tie up properly. Yeh the layout is weird, but it is possible to map it so everything ties up. Basically if you go left at the start you go a short way before the encounter, on the middle trail you walk a medium amount of distance, on the right path you walk the longest distance. This means if you take the shorter left path you can later-on feed back into the longer middle and right path. Out of curiosity I read the paragraph entries for the lake if you don't have a whistle. Basically you can't see a way across so you just sit down and give up - game over. Errr hang on, didn't I walk hundreds of miles already, what is to stop me simply walking round it? Looks simple enough on the map. If Steve really wanted this to be a 'sudden death' he could have at least written a proper ending. For example "you spend all day walking along the side of the lake, you are very tired, as you lay down to sleep you are taken unawares by Snattacats. Your adventure is over." The only other critique I would make is why no illustration for the final three serpents. Especially the Time Serpent as this is really the big final showdown... But putting the few small glitches aside this really is a superb book and I loved every moment. My FF reviews: z3.invisionfree.com/Orc__Goblin_Warpath/index.php?showtopic=29374
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 14, 2013 0:17:40 GMT
From TUFFF... Unlike the original, at least the new cover includes them all. Two Words
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 14, 2013 0:19:02 GMT
From TUFFF... Out of curiosity I read the paragraph entries for the lake if you don't have a whistle. Basically you can't see a way across so you just sit down and give up - game over. Such a pity you don't have a goddess to call on, isn't it? Note also that you're never told that you lose the silver whistle once you've summoned the ferryman. Which means (if you're successful), you will likely be carrying it all the way through The Crown Of Kings... ...a book which requires you to find a silver whistle in order to summon Peewit Croo at the end!
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 14, 2013 0:19:40 GMT
From TUFFF... Ya know, that never even occurred to me. Two Words
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Post by a moderator on May 24, 2014 11:05:06 GMT
While doing a spot of file management on my secondary computer (more antiquated than the one on the Vandervecken, even), I found a back-up of the first 50 of my playthroughs from the lost forum, so I can repost the ones from there that weren't in the Google cache.
The Seven Serpents was the first one that got a proper write-up, so I'm starting here:
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Post by Akharis on Feb 15, 2018 14:03:42 GMT
Has anyone ever noticed that at the end of the book, you're asked how successful you were; none to all seven serpents destroyed or imprisoned. Yet, it's impossible to bypass the Serpent of Air in the boat on the lake or the Serpent of Time in the swamp. Therefore, it's not possible to finish the book without destroying at least two serpents! This must've been a mistake by Steve J. Cool gamebook anyway!
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,677
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Feb 15, 2018 23:37:20 GMT
Has anyone ever noticed that at the end of the book, you're asked how successful you were; none to all seven serpents destroyed or imprisoned. Yet, it's impossible to bypass the Serpent of Air in the boat on the lake or the Serpent of Time in the swamp. Therefore, it's not possible to finish the book without destroying at least two serpents! This must've been a mistake by Steve J. Cool gamebook anyway! I think it's done deliberately. The first few times you play it, you might not know that it's impossible to get less than 3 serpent and just assume that there may be other routes that would lead to these outcomes. Those extra options disguise your success rate and increase replayability.
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Post by johnbrawn1972 on Feb 15, 2018 23:46:13 GMT
There is no answer to the no serpents destroyed option but it could be there if at first you are playing like a complete spanner and have no idea what you have achieved. The 'spur' of the punishment options push you deeper into the gamebook a bit like Night Of The Necromancer.(I will not go off on one of my digressions but I think I will have it my gravestone a bit like that mathematician who had log x on his gravestone which is especially pertinent because it drove him insane)
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Post by a moderator on Feb 16, 2018 21:28:47 GMT
Has anyone ever noticed that at the end of the book, you're asked how successful you were; none to all seven serpents destroyed or imprisoned. Yet, it's impossible to bypass the Serpent of Air in the boat on the lake or the Serpent of Time in the swamp. Therefore, it's not possible to finish the book without destroying at least two serpents! This must've been a mistake by Steve J. Cool gamebook anyway! I think it's done deliberately. The first few times you play it, you might not know that it's impossible to get less than 3 serpent and just assume that there may be other routes that would lead to these outcomes. Those extra options disguise your success rate and increase replayability. Possibly, but why bother devising penalties for the unattainable options? Pity the 'no Serpents destroyed' option didn't read something like
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Post by Ed on Feb 17, 2018 13:31:20 GMT
well said greenspine !
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Post by vastariner on Feb 17, 2018 21:03:39 GMT
Has anyone ever noticed that at the end of the book, you're asked how successful you were; none to all seven serpents destroyed or imprisoned. Yet, it's impossible to bypass the Serpent of Air in the boat on the lake or the Serpent of Time in the swamp. Therefore, it's not possible to finish the book without destroying at least two serpents! This must've been a mistake by Steve J. Cool gamebook anyway! I think you also have to see the Sun Serpent in Fenestra's crystal ball.
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Post by a moderator on Feb 18, 2018 0:14:48 GMT
You have to meet Fenestra, but unless you choose the right topic of conversation, you never learn that her crystal ball has a Serpent trapped in it.
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Post by johnbrawn1972 on Aug 12, 2018 19:00:59 GMT
I have noticed something unusual in Champskees solution namely he fights the balding man when you can immediately spare his life after being revealed for what he is after casting the spell.
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Post by arekkusu on Jan 13, 2019 3:04:14 GMT
Two questions about obtaining spell components:
1) At 37, you can cast a GOD spell at the old Elf and are asked if you have a Jewel of Gold, unlike previous castings (KCoT:82, 302) which say you don't have one. Is there anywhere you can obtain a Jewel of Gold prior to tSS:37? As far as I can tell, you can only get one later, from Fenestra (234) or Nylock (tCoK:226)...
2) Similarly, at 263 you can cast a ZEN spell at the Earth Serpent and are asked if you have a Jewel-Studded Medallion, unlike previous castings (tSH:24, 63, KCot:67, 264, 312) which say you don't have one. Is there anywhere you can obtain a Jewel-Studded Medallion prior to tSS:263? As far as I can tell, you can only get one later, from Fenestra (234) or Nylock (tCoK:226)...
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