sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,679
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on May 16, 2020 16:13:52 GMT
Here's the full list of changes. Let me know if I've missed anything.
(1,157) Yaztromo’s 5 tots of Healing Potion restores 6 Stamina points each instead of 4. (6,190,350) Fight the Goblin riders at the same time instead of one at a time. (11) The Suma’s rescue adds 1 Luck point. (20,143) Second Rad-Hulk reduced to Stamina 4. (50) Getting the complete Rod of Paralysis adds 2 Luck points instead of 1. (62) Fight the Orcs at the same time instead of one at a time. (90) Fight the Doragar at the same time instead of one at a time. (92,103,316,322) Eating restores 4 Stamina points instead of 2. (111) Helmet of Ageing deducts 4 Stamina and 1 Skill point instead of 5 Stamina and 2 Skill points. (115,309) Lava Demons now corrected to Lava Imps. Fight them at the same time instead of one at a time. (118,153) Hill Giant only hits you on a roll of 1 instead of 1-2. (131) Defender shield adds 1 to your Attack Strength instead of adding 1 Skill and 1 Luck point. (139) Fight the Skeletons at the same time instead of one at a time. (147) In the Gargantis fight, Symm and Borri are firing arrows which adds 1 to any damage you inflict. (150) Fight the Giant Fire Beetles at the same time instead of one at a time. (157) Yaztromo heals you 4 Stamina and 2 Skill points instead of giving you 2 Stamina points of food. (161) Rat’s plague deals 4 Stamina points of damage instead of 6. (163) If you regain the lost Skill points, you may regain the use of your arm. (170) There is no Skill loss for getting struck by lightning. (193) Crystal of Sanity’s power adds 2 Luck points. (222) Iron-Eater only lands on you on a roll of 1-3 instead of 1-5. (233) Your Stamina needs to be 4 or higher instead of 6 or higher. (246) Dagger deals 2 Stamina points of damage instead of 4. (249) Harpoon Flies spread of needles is now 1-3, 4-5, and 6, instead of 1-2, 3-4, 5-6. (271) Add 2 Luck points for surviving Razaak’s magical onslaught. Razaak’s sword adds 3 to your Attack Strength in this battle. (272) Fever deals 2 Stamina points of damage instead of 4. (299) Clay Golem’s Stamina reduced to 8. Only roll to see if your sword ‘sticks’ if you hit the Golem instead of whether you hit or not. (305) Tarantula deal 3 points of Stamina damage instead of 4. (314) Lose 1 Stamina point instead of 2 for the flesh wound. (328,380) Armour adds 1 to your Attack Strength instead of adding 1 to your Skill. (339) Razaak’s sword adds 1 to your Attack Strength. (341) A good night’s rest restores 4 Stamina and 2 Skill points instead of just 2 Stamina. (346) Lose Stamina points equal to the number you rolled instead of losing 4 Stamina. (367) Getting immunity to fire adds 2 Luck points. (388) Poison deals 4 Stamina and 1 Skill point of damage instead of 6 Stamina and 2 Skill points.
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Post by philsadler on May 16, 2020 18:47:19 GMT
"(118,153) Hill Giant only hits you on a roll of 1 instead of 1-2." Not too sure about this because it can still kill you so easily. Personally, I would at least offer a luck test. "(131) Defender shield adds 1 to your Attack Strength instead of adding 1 Skill and 1 Luck point." Love this! "(222) Iron-Eater only lands on you on a roll of 1-3 instead of 1-5."
Not too sure about this, especially so near the final, crucial combats. I realise you don't want to change the essence of the book, but sometimes the essence was wrong to begin with: how about on a '1' or maybe another Luck test? "(249) Harpoon Flies spread of needles is now 1-3, 4-5, and 6, instead of 1-2, 3-4, 5-6." This is much nicer but I will always maintain that any roll which can kill any character outright is just plain bad design. "(271) Add 2 Luck points for surviving Razaak’s magical onslaught. Razaak’s sword adds 3 to your Attack Strength in this battle." Very nice indeed! How about something that also counters his two-hit kill ability? "(299) Clay Golem’s Stamina reduced to 8. Only roll to see if your sword ‘sticks’ if you hit the Golem instead of whether you hit or not." Much better than the original but still has the 'roll and die' mechanic. "(328,380) Armour adds 1 to your Attack Strength instead of adding 1 to your Skill." This is more like it. "(339) Razaak’s sword adds 1 to your Attack Strength." And so it this. Very nice work from you and I'm in awe that you typed the whole book in.
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,679
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on May 16, 2020 19:24:42 GMT
I decided to keep all the 'roll this and die' mechanics to keep the deadliness of the book intact. I felt that turning a 33% of a lethal outcome to a 16.7% seemed more than fair. If I changed one of these to a Test, I would've had to change all of them which would create the need for extra (or fewer) paragraphs and I didn't want to add (or takeaway) sections or change the text unless it was necessary. Bear in mind that my aim was to balance the adventure so that it could be played the way it should be played and that heroes wouldn't have to rely on super high rolled attributes. If I created too many instances where a high Skill or Luck was the only way to win, I would have failed in that regard. The weakest hero I have beaten the revised adventure with had only Skill 9, Stamina 22, and Luck 10. The hardest battle was against the Rad-Hulks of all things, but my high Stamina saw me through.
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vagsancho
Knight
Posts: 809
Favourite Gamebook Series: CRYPT OF THE SORCERER
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Post by vagsancho on May 17, 2020 11:47:07 GMT
What would you change in CRYPT OF THE SORCERER?
Background... PERFECT Path to the lake... PERFECT. Kull... Perfect The return to Yaztromo tower... PERFECT YAZTROMO... PERFECT GARGANTIS DOMINIUM... PERFECT Path to the final encounter... PERFECT Ungoth... PERFECT RAZAAK... TOTAL PERFECTION! (I would not change nothing at all.)
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Post by philsadler on May 17, 2020 12:28:14 GMT
Jesus Christ.
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Post by arekkusu on May 17, 2020 16:02:28 GMT
I would teach people who chisel rhymes into boulders the difference between "push" and "pull".
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Post by Law on May 17, 2020 16:26:57 GMT
What would you change in CRYPT OF THE SORCERER? Background... PERFECT Path to the lake... PERFECT. Kull... Perfect The return to Yaztromo tower... PERFECT YAZTROMO... PERFECT GARGANTIS DOMINIUM... PERFECT Path to the final encounter... PERFECT Ungoth... PERFECT RAZAAK... TOTAL PERFECTION! (I would not change nothing at all.) Ease up, dude... I enjoyed Ian's Port of Peril and Assassins of Allansia more than the Hunchback of the Moonstone Hills. They were also more playable.
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Post by linflas on Nov 9, 2020 9:55:03 GMT
I have a question about the multiple creatures fight. Let's say we have 4 Goblins. The rules I know to fight all creatures at the same time are (per turn): choose a Goblin, roll for Attack Strengths. If you win, Goblin loses 2 STA, else you lose 2 STA. For each remaining Goblin, roll for Attack Strengths. If you win, you just parry attack, else lose 2 STA. This is how I understand "at the same time instead of one at a time". But maybe your rules are special?
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Post by a moderator on Nov 9, 2020 11:49:57 GMT
I don't do Facebook, and thus am unable to access the document, so I don't know exactly what it says about fighting multiple opponents simultaneously. Still, as this is a troublesome issue for FF in general, I'm going to comment anyway. The problem is that, across the range, different authors have had different approaches to such fights, so there's no standard set of rules governing them, and any time an author assumes that there is one and just writes 'fight them simultaneously' without spelling out the details, things get ambiguous. Firstly, there's the Jackson/Livingstone approach introduced way back in TWoFM. Each round, roll the Attack Strength for every opponent. Roll multiple Attack Strengths for yourself: one per opponent. But you can only harm one of them: against the others, you merely avoid taking damage if you equal or exceed their Attack Strength. I'm not sure who introduced the main variant, or when, but Battleblade Warrior is one of the books that use it. Roll Attack Strength for each opponent. Roll one Attack Strength for yourself, and compare it to all the other Attack Strengths. Again you can only harm whichever opponent you chose to target that round, but anyone who beats your Attack Strength injures you. It cuts down on dice rolling, but can make combat more dangerous. As far as I know, the third version is exclusively a Keith Martin thing, and it's in his books right from Stealer of Souls. Roll Attack Strength for each opponent. Roll one Attack Strength for yourself. Whichever combatant has the highest Attack Strength inflicts damage, nobody else does, regardless of the numbers. This is less lethal, since you can never take more than one wound per round (well, maybe if more than one opponent gets the same higher-than-yours Attack Strength in the same round, but the rules don't take that eventuality into account), but it also means that you can't injure an opponent in any round where you get hit, whereas the other two versions do allow for that possibility. And, just to complicate matters, Warren McGuire's Fighting Fantazine mini-adventure In Search of the Mungies' Gold has its own rules for such fights: similar to the second version above, but you only roll one die for each combatant when generating Attack Strength. No idea why he'd want to do that, but that's how he chose to do it - unless it's a typo, and he meant to put 'roll once' rather than 'roll one die'. Care to comment, paltogue? I guess a case could be made for saying that, since the first variant was the choice of the series creators, and is there from book 1, that is the definitive ruleset, and all variations are aberrations that should be ignored, but since the others do exist (and can cut down on a lot of tedious rolling and calculation in fights with more than two opponents), I think it preferable that authors take the time to clarify which ruleset they want to use.
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Post by linflas on Nov 9, 2020 13:05:47 GMT
Thanks for explaining those variants, I didn't know all of them Still wondering why sylas switched the multiple enemies fight in his revised Crypt, as it doesn't lower the difficulty. Maybe just for a more realistic approach ? EDIT: btw, there are no rules in the PDF.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,462
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Nov 9, 2020 13:24:36 GMT
I'm not sure who introduced the main variant, or when, but Battleblade Warrior is one of the books that use it. Roll Attack Strength for each opponent. Roll one Attack Strength for yourself, and compare it to all the other Attack Strengths. Again you can only harm whichever opponent you chose to target that round, but anyone who beats your Attack Strength injures you. It cuts down on dice rolling, but can make combat more dangerous. Steve Jackson (UK) introduced that rule for his solo books (at least those of which have fights with multiple opponents). I think Battleblade Warrior is the only non-Jackson book that uses it - all the others use the Livingstone Rule (ie the one that's introduced in WOFM and appears in all subsequent IL books) apart from, as you say, Keith Martin who does his own thing. Not sure about all the Fantazine adventures, but I know Vengeance at Midnight and Starhunt: Void Slavers definitely use the Jackson Rule. The Jackson Rule is the quickest and simplest, but one bad roll can see you take a lot of damage in one round so I don't really like it. The Martin rule is quite simple and elegant and stops you taking too much damage in a round. It can be annoying though if you are prevented from hitting your chosen opponent even if you beat his Attack Strength because one of his companions rolls higher still. Plus it feels less realistic - why would one opponent getting his blow in stop his companions doing the same? So I like the Livingstone Rule best, even if it's a lot of dice rolling.
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Post by a moderator on Nov 9, 2020 13:48:29 GMT
Thanks for the clarification. Vengeance at Midnight and Starhunt: Void Slavers definitely use the Jackson Rule. Vengeance didn't specify when it first came out. Alex switched to the Jackson Rule (well, a variant thereof, since the 'choose who you attack' aspect of it has to be dropped to get the plot to work) because I ranted about the lack of clarity and pointed out that that version would reduce rolls per round by up to 5 in the first fight.
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Post by petch on Nov 9, 2020 14:14:05 GMT
I don't think I ever noticed different books had different rules for fighting enemies simultaneously so this has made some interesting reading! I think I just assumed it was the same every time so I never bothered reading the full rules on it for every book and used the Livingstone method every time (but I agree with Kieran that this way makes the most sense anyway so I don't feel like I've missed out on much!).
I did notice however that the text in Crystal of Storms instructed you to fight opponents at the same time on several occasions, yet the rules on how to do so are entirely absent from the rules which I found quite jarring. I'm sure this isn't the only time that lazy reprinting of generic rules has caused issues, but it's the first time I noticed such an omission.
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vagsancho
Knight
Posts: 809
Favourite Gamebook Series: CRYPT OF THE SORCERER
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Post by vagsancho on Nov 9, 2020 16:09:41 GMT
Realistic fighting is something relative... We can never know... There are unexpected things everywhere... Who in a million years would guess that i would be stil alive here after fighting that tiranossaurus is that dungeon... Climbing through that body... Avoiding those feet... Penetrating with the sword that almost stonish flesh... It was breathless... In the end I almost didnt feel mw legs and arms... Who knows... Maybe that tiranossaurus was sick or something... Maybe it was just luck who knows...
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,679
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Nov 9, 2020 21:23:52 GMT
Thanks for explaining those variants, I didn't know all of them Still wondering why sylas switched the multiple enemies fight in his revised Crypt, as it doesn't lower the difficulty. Maybe just for a more realistic approach ? EDIT: btw, there are no rules in the PDF. I go by Steve Jackson rules for multiple combat. The reason I made some battles vs several goes is largely because I could see no reason not to. You are surrounded by enemies. Fight them one at a time. Feels wrong doesn't it? When you play it, you will find that these combats don't make the adventures difficulty that much harder.
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Post by james on Nov 28, 2020 12:09:58 GMT
This is an awesome piece of work - thankyou for doing this and sharing. I think you've improved the book immensely.
A couple of thoughts from me: - you could narrow the starting skill range to 9-11 for a more consistent/tighter player experience. - you could even boost the Skill of the skill 5,6 monsters so they're not trivially easy. -I know you've responded to this in this thread, but I still think the instant death rolls are fundamentally bad (although I appreciate you've reduced their probability). Another option could be to have the instant death paras instead deduct skill/stamina - they might still kill you this way, but only if you're already weak.
But overall I think the changes you made are awesome.
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,679
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Nov 28, 2020 18:58:31 GMT
This is an awesome piece of work - thankyou for doing this and sharing. I think you've improved the book immensely. A couple of thoughts from me: - you could narrow the starting skill range to 9-11 for a more consistent/tighter player experience. - you could even boost the Skill of the skill 5,6 monsters so they're not trivially easy. -I know you've responded to this in this thread, but I still think the instant death rolls are fundamentally bad (although I appreciate you've reduced their probability). Another option could be to have the instant death paras instead deduct skill/stamina - they might still kill you this way, but only if you're already weak. But overall I think the changes you made are awesome. -I've tried to keep the essence of the book intact, changing as little of it as possible while making gameplay fair. Having a narrower Skill range changes the standard rules of Ian's FF adventures and will also probably provoke people into complaining that they can never start will a SKILL of 12. -The trivial monsters are a feature in almost every FF book to date. They might not kill you, but a lucky roll for them could hurt you still. Increasing their SKILL would make them inconsistent with other books, that's why I opted to turn one on one combats against multiple enemies into them attacking you at the same time to increase the chances of them getting a lucky shot or two in. -Not a bad idea but I think the book would lose much of its notorious deadliness if I did that.
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Post by tyrion on Nov 28, 2020 21:00:42 GMT
It would be interesting to run this through champskees algorithm to see what the chance of success is now.
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,679
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Nov 28, 2020 22:36:17 GMT
It would be interesting to run this through champskees algorithm to see what the chance of success is now. Definitely below near-impossible.
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Post by Charles X. on Jul 2, 2021 12:28:00 GMT
Think this is really good 👍. Perhaps you could do the same with Spellbreaker? The revised edition messed-up by failing to include a surrender option with the beggar fight. Even then the difficulty level is outrageous. I'm a fan of the Night Dragon system in which we are given a stat bonus above the starting total; which I grant doesn't help when you're doing a 'do or die' random roll.
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Post by The Editor (Alex B) on Jul 3, 2021 2:48:59 GMT
Well done! Ive often wondered why the authors themselves dont go back and do this for the more broken books. Do they even care? It has nothing to do with caring. They would probably want some sort of fee for doing the revision work as it would be taking them away from earning money by writing something else.
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Post by CharlesX on Aug 20, 2021 19:08:12 GMT
What would you change in CRYPT OF THE SORCERER? Background... PERFECT Path to the lake... PERFECT. Kull... Perfect The return to Yaztromo tower... PERFECT YAZTROMO... PERFECT GARGANTIS DOMINIUM... PERFECT Path to the final encounter... PERFECT Ungoth... PERFECT RAZAAK... TOTAL PERFECTION! (I would not change nothing at all.) Not one to pick fights, but there's often quite a bit of difference between the first and later edition FF; Curse Of The Mummy is hugely easier in the later edition. In Crypt, the Wizard edition is different from the original edition, giving the Gargantis one attack instead of four, but with absolutely everything else the same (such as the Gargantis statistics). I'm a bit perplexed why they chose to bother changing the book, but only with such an inconsequential alteration, a drop in several oceans. I can guess in advance which of the two vagsancho prefers though.
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Post by drmanhattan on Aug 20, 2021 19:48:40 GMT
What would you change in CRYPT OF THE SORCERER? Background... PERFECT Path to the lake... PERFECT. Kull... Perfect The return to Yaztromo tower... PERFECT YAZTROMO... PERFECT GARGANTIS DOMINIUM... PERFECT Path to the final encounter... PERFECT Ungoth... PERFECT RAZAAK... TOTAL PERFECTION! (I would not change nothing at all.) You would not change nothing at all? so you’d basically change EVERYTHING ? Seems a bit harsh vagsancho surely the book can’t be all that bad
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,679
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Aug 20, 2021 22:05:50 GMT
In Crypt, the Wizard edition is different from the original edition, giving the Gargantis one attack instead of four, but with absolutely everything else the same (such as the Gargantis statistics). I'm a bit perplexed why they chose to bother changing the book, but only with such an inconsequential alteration, a drop in several oceans. The Gargantis has four attacks in the original? Are you sure about that?
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Post by daredevil123 on Aug 20, 2021 22:30:04 GMT
The Gargantis has four attacks in the original? Are you sure about that? I've checked a Puffin edition and the Gargantis encounter is the same. Unfortunately, the Wizard edition made no changes AFAIK.
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Post by CharlesX on Aug 20, 2021 23:01:14 GMT
The Gargantis has four attacks in the original? Are you sure about that? I've checked a Puffin edition and the Gargantis encounter is the same. Unfortunately, the Wizard edition made no changes AFAIK. I've been wrong about this before with COTSW so I'm prepared to accept that . However, my copy of Out Of The Pit lists the Gargantis as having stats of 12 24 12 with 4 attacks (yes, I've checked). Just as it mentions Dragons breathe fire every few rounds, which Livingstone's EOTD Black Dragon doesn't. My working theory is he\she had a throatache .
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,679
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Aug 20, 2021 23:21:39 GMT
I've checked a Puffin edition and the Gargantis encounter is the same. Unfortunately, the Wizard edition made no changes AFAIK. I've been wrong about this before with COTSW so I'm prepared to accept that . However, my copy of Out Of The Pit lists the Gargantis as having stats of 12 24 12 with 4 attacks (yes, I've checked). Just as it mentions Dragons breathe fire every few rounds, which Livingstone's EOTD Black Dragon doesn't. My working theory is he\she had a throatache . Out of the Pit and its sequels include number of attacks for use in a multiplayer adventure. It is not used in solo adventures so it isn't included in the stats. It also means the maximum number of opponents the creature can face in a round of combat rather than the amount of extra attacks it can bring to bear in an attack round. (Incidentally, it is 3 attacks according to Beyond the Pit)
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Post by CharlesX on Aug 20, 2021 23:37:27 GMT
I think it is 3 attacks, as well, as I have checked Titannica where the Gargantis is listed as having 3 attacks. Still think Dragons should be breathing fire (poison in the case of Black Dragons) but then I don't remember the all-powerful Night Dragon having such a special combat attack. I can't think of many examples in FF of solo adventures where enemies have multiple attacks, the notable one being the multi-armed creature in Legend Of The Shadow Warriors.
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,679
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Aug 20, 2021 23:59:57 GMT
I think it is 3 attacks, as well, as I have checked Titannica where the Gargantis is listed as having 3 attacks. Still think Dragons should be breathing fire (poison in the case of Black Dragons) but then I don't remember the all-powerful Night Dragon having such a special combat attack. I can't think of many examples in FF of solo adventures where enemies have multiple attacks, the notable one being the multi-armed creature in Legend Of The Shadow Warriors. Night Dragon had a fire breath attack which can be countered with the Magic Shield but it only uses its claws in battle. There are a few multi-attackers dotted about. Of the ones I remember: Kalundai, Kung Fu Shadow Warrior, Myurr, Hydra, Two-headed dog, Giant Scorpion. I'm sure there's more.
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Post by CharlesX on Apr 29, 2023 19:41:12 GMT
So, I'm wondering whether in the revised edition, it would actually be worth using the Chameleonite blood? My guesswork is without all the ridiculous odds present in the 'original & uncorrected' edition, the benefit of dodging the Gargantis blow for 2 stamina and the Skill test isn't worth it. In fact I think all other gameplay decisions, such as whether to fight the Gargantis or fighting the Rad-hulks, would be the same (maybe a lower Avatar could not fight the Rad-hulks and stand a very slight chance of success rather than none at all). I would like to see a revised edition of Spellbreaker, because not only did the reprint fail to add the option to surrender on the important gate as it should have done, but it also did not alter the outrageous difficulty level of the tests, and the fights semi-cosmetically. Odds of 50 50 for example might make sense to the author or from a narrative pov but definitely not from a gameplay one, and repeated faith tests with odds of success such as 1 in 3 are also ridiculous. I play Fantasy gamebooks to escape reality, not to face nightmare scenarioes.
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