Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2015 15:50:09 GMT
Never had a date that I couldn't inflate. Might as well read City of Thieves.
|
|
|
Post by johnbrawn1972 on Jul 1, 2017 0:02:27 GMT
City Of Thieves solution updated to be readable and more logical. I have assumed you hit the ball.
|
|
|
Post by johnbrawn1972 on Nov 10, 2017 11:50:22 GMT
I feel it is better to reply to peasantscribbler here to help keep the solutions board solution friendly.
The immediate problem is the 'theocentric' point of view which is impossible when the reality is you play in a consecutive steps manner where you do not know what the dice rolls will entail. To be clearer I always buy the Ring Of Fire but then you might lose all your gold and then have to be adaptive. My updated solution is there if you retain your gold but what happens when you lose all your gold is not yet updated.
I have not made notes but have done all this from memory. I need to update the lose all your gold solution and check the logic.
I have followed the logic of the book to a certain point but then the path bifurcates so it requires being adaptive eg using the golden petals, willingness to lose all your gold except what you palm and so on.
Your 'spur to action' means I will check my logic and some of your suggestions have some purchase.
|
|
|
Post by johnbrawn1972 on Nov 10, 2017 23:07:25 GMT
I have checked my solutions and given them a slight update.
The lose all your gold and the Bays Ball game solution is now readable as well as updated.
I still cannot see the logic of any of the suggestions for this reason. My solutions follow the logic whereby you always buy the Ring Of Fire because you have not yet failed the skill roll so it is probabilistically uncertain. You might pass the skill roll and you might not but that being given it is your best bet to buy the Ring of Fire. If you fail the skill roll then the now readable solution falls into place. It is advantageous to have a merchant's pass and Ring of Fire but not necessary. The modified route falls into place eg the golden petals, 2gp for the potion, the tax collectors pouch of gold pieces and so on.
The suggestions given only make sense if you have already made the decision to lose the luck and skill rolls prior to making those rolls.
This 'thought experiment' has nothing to do with the solutions posted on the other board so they are null and void.
|
|
|
Post by champskees on Nov 10, 2017 23:36:14 GMT
John I think peasant does have some valid points.
One of the pros for getting the lantern instead of the ring of fire is that it still takes care of the mummy. You will have to fight a 6/6 leaf beast but that is fine. Plus you can then buy the iron spike to throw away for a failed skill roll.
If you get the ring of fire and fail the luck and skill roll, your solution suggests fighting the vagabonds to collect the tax payer funds, which also has merit, but I feel that the highest probability path is dependent upon your stats. Losing the ring of fire means fighting the mummy at the end which can be avoided completely with the lantern purchase.
I am currently writing programs to check probability of different paths. I have currently programmed peasants path. There are 2-3 other options I am considering. This I think will settle the matter rather definitively.
One question I do have for everyone: say you do not fight the ogre for the gems and you fail the luck roll and lose all of your gold. When you get to the market and it requires you to lose 1 gold piece or an item, could a portion of provisions be considered an item for this purpose?
|
|
|
Post by peasantscribbler on Nov 11, 2017 22:50:05 GMT
The suggestions given only make sense if you have already made the decision to lose the luck and skill rolls prior to making those rolls. Yes, this is the spirit in which the suggestions were made (i.e. assume you lose both rolls) and it is fair to characterize them as a thought experiment. However, if we limit omniscience to knowing the structure of the book but not dice roll outcomes, my suggestions still might contain the germ of a very conservative, low-cost strategy. This strategy would be based on avoiding adverse possibilities even if the probabilities of adverse outcomes are low. For example, I think that ordinarily one would avoid fighting the ogre because you don't need either his gold or his gems to buy all of the items you need (including the ring of fire) if you don't lose all of your gold. If your luck score is 12, you don't even have to enter his house. However, I suggest that you do fight him if there is any possibility of losing all your gold (i.e. your luck is 11 or lower) to avoid the possibility of needing to trade all of your provisions for the silver arrow. (And this may well be a low-probability possibility, as I think it would only happen if you also lose the skill test for the ball game. Edit: Actually, this should never happen because you can always use Mrs. Pipe's flower to generate enough gold to buy the arrow. The real adverse possibility you can avoid by fighting the ogre for his gems is a fight against the vagabonds (which becomes necessary without the gems in order to take the serpent queen's money to pay for the tattoo) and fights against both the mummy and the leaf beasts.)
If you win the luck test and don't lose all your gold, you can, of course, still buy the ring of fire and the iron spike (just in case), and dispense with trading for Mrs. Pipe's flowers and encountering the dogs, the goblin, and the vagabonds. If you lose the luck test and lose all your gold (and your skill score is 11 or lower), I think that you should at this point forego purchasing the ring of fire so that you can afford the lantern and the spike to avoid the possibility of losing the ring if you lose the skill test at the ball game. You should also trade for Mrs. Pipe's flower, again, just to avoid the possibility of not being able to pay gold for the arrow if you lose the skill test at the ball game. I believe that the only added cost to not buying the ring of fire at this point is that it will lead to an unnecessary fight against the leaf beasts if you do win the ball game. However, if you go on to lose the ball game you can use my suggestions on the other board to avoid fighting the vagabonds. (Aside: I've always been irrationally wary of the vagabonds since they were the ones who killed me on my first attempt as an 11-year-old in the 80s!) Anyways, I really do like your solution and it certainly inspired my own thoughts on the matter. I'm sure that your solution is superior based on probabilities, but I think there might be an alternate, conservative strategy based on avoiding adverse possibilities.
|
|
|
Post by johnbrawn1972 on Nov 11, 2017 22:53:29 GMT
Even though I have just had a bottle of wine and have watched 2 S3 episodes of Star Trek: The Next Generation I can see some difficult problems are being raised here. The probabilities of the luck and skill roll are somewhat pivotal. My solutions engage with passing both or failing both and anyone can follow some sort of compromise for anything inbetween. I think this is a bit like my solutions for Night Of The Necromancer where the minimal solution is more 'objective' and anyone can compromise for something inbetween.
I suppose the minimal 9-14-7 boosted to 9(+1)-14-8 is where I am coming from with both solutions. My 'reasoning' is skill is such a powerful force multiplier I tend to think of that as the primary attribute. I have not really considered 8-24-12 for instance. My 'reasoning' is usually the low skill will mean you are chipped away so a high stamina is an 'illusion' in this sense.
Though I am quite 'determined' but am I 'determined to prove a villain' is another story nevertheless I am willing to consider your probability analysis especially if you have considered the various strategies all us have promulgated.
I think you have picked up on my obvious contention that it is 'best' at that moment to buy the Ring of Fire and still have gold left over for the pickpocketing reference. It is a 'go for the best' at the time strategy. The possibilities of number crunching by the way of probability analysis are attractive. I suppose like anyone I do not want to be proven 'wrong' by the numbers.
The pickpocketing is ambiguous.
|
|
|
Post by peasantscribbler on Nov 11, 2017 23:08:33 GMT
When you get to the market and it requires you to lose 1 gold piece or an item, could a portion of provisions be considered an item for this purpose? Sure, I guess it could. If a provision portion is an item for this purpose, it should also be an item you could lose at the ball game. (There is a certain logic to this, as you are more likely to have provisions in your back pack than either your ring or your helmet.) In that case, it might make sense to buy the ring of fire and instead lose a provision if you lose the skill roll at the ball game.
|
|
|
Post by champskees on Nov 12, 2017 9:13:46 GMT
After having a look at several possibilities I feel as though I have come very close to the optimal solution. It is interesting because I originally thought it may be dependent upon initial stat scores.
What came through very clearly was that NOT fighting the ogre is the best choice overall, particularly for low skill level characters. Once you reach Skill 10 and up, many of the choices become quite irrelevant, including whether to fight the ogre or not.
Most of the other alterations had little/no effect on the overall outcome. Using the potion of fortune tactically later rather than straight away improves chances of success by a somewhat consistent margin.
Just so you know JB, I have been sneaking around editing my solutions recently and calculating the probabilities of success. I found an interesting change in my solution for The Warlock of Firetop Mountain too; you should have a read of it.
Next will be Deathtrap Dungeon, which I imagine will be a simple exercise.
|
|
|
Post by johnbrawn1972 on Nov 12, 2017 16:08:01 GMT
Now I am sober I can state I am somewhat 'passionate' but I care about 'objectivity' as well. I think this is fairly obvious.
It is fascinating as Spock would put it when someone crunches numbers. I would never have thought the Ogre was a red herring.
I am interested in looking at your solutions so I will do that next. I hope you have done your usual thing of best solution with minimal attributes possible. I am interested in how you present the cascade problems here ie luck/skill win/win win/lose lose/win lose/lose. Your multi-coloured posts have always been a delight.
I will have a look now at the first 10 books.
I am terrified you will refute my Night Of The Necromancer 7-14-7 solution and I am not entirely joking.
|
|
|
Post by schlendrian on Jan 17, 2019 14:24:30 GMT
Now for the really important questions, that keep us all awake at night: Why baseball? Was that game on some sort of popularity surge in the UK when the book was published? Is there some additional pun I didn't get?
Presumably because the game wasn't very well known here in the 80s, for the German books the translators seem to have felt the need to substitute another game: the Bays became Cricks, playing Cricket.
|
|
|
Post by philsadler on Jan 17, 2019 17:06:50 GMT
Now for the really important questions, that keep us all awake at night: Why baseball? Was that game on some sort of popularity surge in the UK when the book was published? Is there some additional pun I didn't get? Presumably because the game wasn't very well known here in the 80s, for the German books the translators seem to have felt the need to substitute another game: the Bays became Cricks, playing Cricket. I always thought it was Ian just sucking up to the yanks or something? Almost no one over here cares about baseball in the slightest.
|
|
|
Post by schlendrian on Jan 17, 2019 18:29:00 GMT
I am aware, hence the question - just thought maybe I missed something. No one cares for baseball over here either, though to be fair, no one cares about cricket as well - when I played CoT as a child, I thought cricket was the game, where you used the flamingoes to kick around the curled up hedgehogs from Alice in Wonderland and was very irritated by the description of the cricks/bays.
|
|
|
Post by bloodbeasthandler on Jan 17, 2019 19:28:10 GMT
Now for the really important questions, that keep us all awake at night: Why baseball? Was that game on some sort of popularity surge in the UK when the book was published? Is there some additional pun I didn't get? Presumably because the game wasn't very well known here in the 80s, for the German books the translators seem to have felt the need to substitute another game: the Bays became Cricks, playing Cricket. I always thought it was Ian just sucking up to the yanks or something? Almost no one over here cares about baseball in the slightest. For some reason I'm thinking Steve and Ian used to play a lot of some sort of baseball boardgame or card game back in the pre- to early Games Workshop days.
But I honestly cannot tell if it is something I have remembered one of them saying in an interview or if it is a mere figment of my imagination...
Steve Jackson certainly liked baseball though, (lived in N America - Canada) aged 4 - 11.
Edit: In fact Ian Livingstone WAS a fan - he saw the Boston Red Sox in 1976, and the wizard Yaztromo is partially named after one of their players. It's in You are the Hero.
|
|
vagsancho
Knight
Posts: 809
Favourite Gamebook Series: CRYPT OF THE SORCERER
|
Post by vagsancho on May 2, 2019 9:01:45 GMT
I am one of the few that prefer trial of champions to deathtrap dungeon. Never played port of peril. Is port of peril to city of thieves like trial of champions is to deathtrap dungeon?
|
|
|
Post by johnbrawn1972 on May 2, 2019 12:57:12 GMT
I am one of the few that prefer trial of champions to deathtrap dungeon. Never played port of peril. Is port of peril to city of thieves like trial of champions is to deathtrap dungeon? No and No.
Deathtrap Dungeon is original with a brilliantly bonkers premise plus the writing is really atmospheric. The gameplay is quite tough but there is a sort of logic to this because it is a demanding environment.
Trial of Champions is much harder which has a logic to it because it is meant to be fiendishly difficult but it can be a frustrating play. Also it is very noticeable the descriptions are lacking in any sense of flair or atmosphere.
City of Thieves is a classic with wonderful writing where the city really seems to be a hive of scum and villainy. The gameplay is relatively fair but the fights at the end suddenly ramp up the difficulty. Also if you have a low luck the last roll is a bit savage in terms of game over man game over. Nevertheless it is never less than engrossing.
The earlier classics trump the later entries.
|
|
vagsancho
Knight
Posts: 809
Favourite Gamebook Series: CRYPT OF THE SORCERER
|
Post by vagsancho on May 3, 2019 14:11:20 GMT
Number ONE - HOUSE OF HELL NUMBER TWO - CRYPT OF THE SORCERER NUMBER THREE - CITY OF THIEVES
|
|
|
Post by daredevil123 on May 3, 2019 20:03:29 GMT
Number ONE - HOUSE OF HELL NUMBER TWO - CRYPT OF THE SORCERER NUMBER THREE - CITY OF THIEVES You mean Crypt of the Sorcerer is no longer your number one? Never thought I'd see the day...
|
|
|
Post by thealmightymudworm on May 3, 2019 22:33:49 GMT
Number ONE - HOUSE OF HELL NUMBER TWO - CRYPT OF THE SORCERER NUMBER THREE - CITY OF THIEVES You mean Crypt of the Sorcerer is no longer your number one? Never thought I'd see the day... He's Franklins's Apprentice now.
|
|
vagsancho
Knight
Posts: 809
Favourite Gamebook Series: CRYPT OF THE SORCERER
|
Post by vagsancho on May 4, 2019 8:58:22 GMT
Crypt of the Sorcerer and House of Hell always were both the best fighting fantasy books to me. Very different but the best ones. I was always confused in choosing the number one of them. Always changing back and back. I've won the amazing House of Hell this week...
|
|
|
Post by stoneshaman on Jan 3, 2020 20:49:04 GMT
Given that Mrs Pipe's Golden Flower is indeed just 1, is there anywhere you can pick up a bunch of flowers to give to the Serpent Queen? As far as I can tell, this is impossible, and it makes reference 172 unreachable.
|
|
|
Post by Law on May 14, 2020 13:39:04 GMT
Although House of Hell and Creature of Havoc have arguably the best isolated world-building until I finally read Jonathan Greene's forays into Fighting Fantasy... This was definitely the book I played the most when I was little.
|
|
Blackheart
Squire
Formerly known as Symm. Razaak raised me from the dead.
Posts: 42
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
|
Post by Blackheart on Sept 23, 2020 13:37:06 GMT
(217) ...and swing round to see two pairs of eyes staring at you. They belong to MOON DOGS, Zanbar Bone's trained killer hounds. Fight them one at a time.
Which, of course, makes sense. Why wouldn't moon dogs wait their turn?!
|
|
|
Post by thealmightymudworm on Sept 23, 2020 14:13:32 GMT
One of them attacks; one of them moons you as a distraction, hence the name.
|
|
Blackheart
Squire
Formerly known as Symm. Razaak raised me from the dead.
Posts: 42
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
|
Post by Blackheart on Sept 24, 2020 8:29:53 GMT
One of them attacks; one of them moons you as a distraction, hence the name.
...or just moons about.
|
|
|
Post by tyrion on Jan 26, 2021 21:24:03 GMT
Now for the really important questions, that keep us all awake at night: Why baseball? Was that game on some sort of popularity surge in the UK when the book was published? Is there some additional pun I didn't get? Presumably because the game wasn't very well known here in the 80s, for the German books the translators seem to have felt the need to substitute another game: the Bays became Cricks, playing Cricket. I had a friend, he was a big baseball player, back in high school.
|
|
|
Post by CharlesX on May 7, 2022 20:09:58 GMT
Growing up I used to like the more sandbox aspects about City of Thieves, even though it's far from the best FF in that regard. Ian's randomness feels very apt in a city setting, and City reminds me of a good Tunnels and Trolls adventure.
|
|
|
Post by johnbrawn1972 on May 13, 2022 14:56:17 GMT
I have been hard at work on a new solution. My idea is to go north at the beginning and denude your luck. This should ensure you can take the iron key so you do not miss out on the shield and just before opening the chest take your Potion of Fortune. On this route you do not have to worry about losing your gold. Later if you have been very unlucky you can buy the chainmail armour.
Rather than being my usual parsimonious self this solution is for 10/14/7. The reason for this is you need to be at parity to be able to beat the skill 11 Moon Dog.
If my home computer ever starts working again I will try and post the solution at some point.
|
|
|
Post by bloodbeasthandler on Jun 13, 2022 11:34:20 GMT
ripped off of Ian Livingstone's twitter page 29 may 2022 and put here for posterity. original manuscripts
|
|
|
Post by bloodbeasthandler on Jun 13, 2022 11:34:39 GMT
|
|