kieran
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Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Sept 5, 2021 20:36:13 GMT
Still seems bizarre to me that no Steve Jackson books made the top 5 and only 2 made the top 10.
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kieran
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Posts: 2,472
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Sept 5, 2021 20:18:38 GMT
Jann and the Reaver
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,472
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Sept 4, 2021 13:19:50 GMT
I think these culture wars are sending people round the bend Always a bit nervous about weighing in on this issue as it has often been a destroyer of forums, and I like this place way too much for that! But without getting too much into my own stance, I share your impatience with Twitter flame wars and find them pretty pointless since it's basically those who already agree with one another high-fiving each other. But I think simplifying the transgender debate to a "culture war" ignores that there are real people impacted by it. JKR and her group claim that granting transwomen access to female spaces could endanger women or at least make them uncomfortable, and that trans-inclusive language is demeaning to women. Those on the other side argue that banning transwomen from female spaces is cruel and puts them in danger, and that failing to use trans-inclusive language dismisses the transperson's gender identity. While it's fair to say that both sides may have a point, there is plenty of data on transwomen being attacked in male spaces vs women being attacked by people claiming to be trans, and there are studies on how ciswomen react to trans-inclusive language vs how transpeople react to trans-exlusive language. And I feel this is where Rowling lets herself down by not really engaging with this data and instead sticking to her guns and cherry-picking examples that suit her stance rather than looking at the wider data. And while she claims not to be transphobic, she has been seen to support those that are. She certainly didn't do herself any favours by having a cross-dressing murderer in her latest book! Probably not, but appeasing such folk wouldn't be the point of an apology. A prominent figure on the 'gender critical' side stating she was wrong would have quite an impact on the debate. Anyway, back to Fighting Fantasy!
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kieran
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Posts: 2,472
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Sept 3, 2021 22:55:22 GMT
Daggers of Darkness and Night of the Necromancer both give you better than a 50% chance according to Champskees' stats. Arguably also Appointment with FEAR if you take Super Strength and thereby get the starting Skill of 13.
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kieran
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Posts: 2,472
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Sept 3, 2021 16:59:16 GMT
Jackson is the better plotter. Livingstone the better writer. I think that's true early on but I feel House of Hell, Crown of Kings and Creature of Havoc have better writing than anything Ian ever produced.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,472
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Sept 3, 2021 13:37:13 GMT
Looking at their earlier books, they actually compare pretty well to one another:
Citadel of Chaos vs Forest of Doom Starship Traveller vs City of Thieves The Shamutanti Hills vs Deathtrap Dungeon Khare: Cityport of Traps vs Island of the Lizard King The Seven Serpents vs Caverns of the Snow Witch
In fact, I might even say Ian has a slight edge. But then Steve churns out, in my opinion, his best four books and four of the best books in the entire series: House of Hell, Crown of Kings, Appointment with FEAR and Creature of Havoc. Meanwhile Ian puts out the more ho-hum Freeway Fighter, Temple of Terror, Trial of Champions and, um, Crypt of the Sorcerer. And his books after Steve leaves the series to put his feet up were, for the most part, even weaker.
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kieran
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Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Sept 3, 2021 10:29:09 GMT
Zagor and Balthus Dire for me. Gruul probably is the better character, but he's just far less important to the series. Voivod just isn't that memorable.
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kieran
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Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Sept 1, 2021 18:52:35 GMT
Steve was definitely the more ambitious writer, taking risks with new settings, new rules and clever design features that really pushed what could be achieved within the genre. Apart from one example where it didn't really pay off (Starship Traveller) he was extremely successful with these experiments.
Ian basically found a formula he liked, tinkered with it a little bit to perfect it in Deathtrap Dungeon and stuck with it. Even his books that seem on the surface a bit different (Freeway Fighter and Armies of Death) don't feel all that different when you play them - you barely use your army in the latter and the roads in the former may as well be dungeon corridors.
That said I really like Ian's formula for the most part. Just wish he'd cool it with the harsh difficulty and his post-Eye of the Dragon books have become far too linear.
So Steve wins for me.
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kieran
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Posts: 2,472
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Aug 31, 2021 18:08:19 GMT
Lord Carnuss for standing up to his sibling instead of getting bossed about by them.
Jann beats old toadface.
Grimslade isn't in quite the same league of villain as Zharradan Marr.
And I'll give the last to Karam Gruul for being such a despicable so-and-so.
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kieran
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Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Aug 29, 2021 22:32:30 GMT
The Riddling Reaver because he's just generally awesome.
I really want to vote for Big Z but will abstain due to not knowing much about (presumably) Big B.
How is the Ancient still in this? Does he even have a personality (dragonality?)? Balthus Dire for me.
And Mencius is much more fun than Voivod (who I always want to call Vovoid).
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kieran
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Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Aug 29, 2021 19:04:31 GMT
I half-expected D. Morris to be the author, as he is the H.G. Wells of gamebooks, having written a hundred or so. I wonder whether his Can You Brexit was influenced by Overlord!? Well both were co-authored by Jamie Thomson. The biggest issue with Can You Brexit is there's only a handful of meaningful decisions. Most of the others are just choosing what order you would like to be briefed by your advisors before making a decision on the issue. At least with Overlord, you can vary who your Privy Council members are and this varies the advice and decisions that are open to you.
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kieran
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Posts: 2,472
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Aug 27, 2021 22:33:36 GMT
Zagor is the poster boy of the series. Abdul is some pirate who wants to prove he's the best pirate yet isn't even piratey enough to consider cheating. So Zagor wins.
The Archmage is cunning but he's not quite tricking-you-into-eating-your-own-buddies level despicable so Zharradan wins.
Abstain on Grimslade/Orghuz as never got very far in Chasms of Malice.
Mencius is a much more delightful villain than Bythos.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,472
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Aug 27, 2021 10:42:49 GMT
Ah yes, forgot about that bit!
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kieran
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Posts: 2,472
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Aug 27, 2021 10:25:26 GMT
Foxglove strongly reminds me of the secret police common to any totalitarian system, nazi, communist or other such as monarchical. If you are blindly loyal to any faction in Overlord!, you will at best get bad results and as often as not die instantly, which is pretty realistic. As far as I recall you can give Force-Lady Gwyneth pretty much every position of power going and be fine
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,472
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Aug 27, 2021 10:11:53 GMT
What's The Christian Right? More an American thing I think. Basically hard social conservatives who claim their political stance is supported by their Christian beliefs. Not sure if Smith and Thomson intended Golspiel to represent Thatcherites and if they did, perhaps it's not a fair characterisation. But it's fun to speculate - the fact that the Demogogue seems such a parody of one political group, just makes me wonder if the other council members might be too. Sticking with Thatcher, in the second Fabled Lands book, you can meet a mad thatcher who makes money by selling people shares in their neighbours' roofs so they can charge each other rent. Always wondered if that was a reference to Thatcher's Right to Buy scheme - otherwise it's a very odd encounter.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,472
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Aug 26, 2021 15:51:15 GMT
I agree that the ice gem seems a good shout.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,472
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Aug 26, 2021 13:08:52 GMT
Jann because he's adorable Carnuss because he's a git Sukumvit because he's iconic
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,472
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Aug 26, 2021 12:42:17 GMT
That's why British gamebooks, to a far greater extent than their US counterparts, relish the death paragraphs, and understand their importance as part of the experience. I think RL Stine's Hark gamebooks would definitely be an exception to that rule! His gamebooks in general seem quite death heavy, but that may be due to his children's horror background. Different target markets played a big part there I suspect. FF was written for 8-12 year olds and had simple rules. T&T had a much more complex game system (even if it was simpler than the likes of D&D) and plenty of "adult situations" as I found when playing one of them as an 11 year old and getting surprised when my character got raped by barbarians. Definitely not something that was ever going to get mass appeal. Interesting. Obviously there's a big philosophical aspect regarding free will and a quite literal manifestation of black and white morality but never picked up on anything overtly political. There's a lot of political allusions in the fourth Way of the Tiger book: the Demagogue is a pretty on-the-nose parody of student Trotskyists, but one could also argue that Golspiel is supposed to be a Thatcherite; The Lord High Steward a more old-school conservative; Foxglove is a fascist; Greystaff could represent the Christian Right etc.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,472
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Aug 20, 2021 16:25:49 GMT
I do find the area round the eastern shore of the lake very atmospheric. I even find that arbitrary instant death where you disappear forever in the fog quite poetic.
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kieran
Baron
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Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Aug 20, 2021 11:52:47 GMT
Yaztromo is the more iconic character plus he's smart enough not to challenge people to mortal rock-paper-scissors.
Balthus Dire wins again for me. So much personality and options to that encounter.
Abstain on the other one.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,472
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Aug 20, 2021 10:25:54 GMT
I'm going to stick my neck out and tell you I don't agree with these posts saying they liked MOM. I always thought it was quite a poor FF entry. The bare-bones description (I always prefer atmosphere in FF), the absolutely insane \outrageous difficulty level. The Horn Of Hever which is more trouble than it's worth. The dour, black-and-white writing. It's definitely one of the weakest books in the series for me. The whole Fallow Dale segment is great (even if the tiger hunt is ultimately not worth the effort, it is fun), but the rest of the book is pretty bland imo.
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kieran
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Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Aug 18, 2021 12:50:35 GMT
The second book in the Legends of Skyfall series makes the sex of the reader's character a plot point (and acknowledges the possibility of being either). One of the toughest fights in the book can potentially be avoided if you've disguised yourself with a robe found in the eponymous pyramid, but the embroidery on men's robes is a different colour from the embroidery on women's robes. If you're a man in women's robes or vice versa, your cover is blown and you're probably doomed. Aren't some of the pre-generated characters in the second lot of Wizard FF books female? I know that your character is explicitly identified as male in The Rings of Kether (Zera Gross refers to you as 'him'), Black Vein Prophecy and Legend of Zagor, but are there any others that actually specify? The butler in Citadel of Chaos refers to you as "Sir" but his "heh, heh" afterwards could imply he's making some sort of joke.
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kieran
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Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Aug 17, 2021 20:05:14 GMT
I can't think of 1 female FF writer. Rhianna Pratchett is the only one and she's very late to the table. Female gamebook authors seem a lot more common in US gamebooks series than British for some reason.
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kieran
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Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Aug 17, 2021 8:21:27 GMT
I wasn't aware there was a Romeo and Juliet follow up. I enjoyed To Be Or Not To Be, even though I know next to nothing about Hamlet.
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kieran
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Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Aug 16, 2021 12:47:21 GMT
Myurr is a lot more sneaky than Relem, so I'll go for him.
Voivod and Akharis are both a bit forgettable for me. The back story for Voivod is slightly more interesting so I'll go with him.
And the Riddling Reaver at least has the decency to wear clothes while in his lizard-man guise so I'll pick him over the Lizard King.
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kieran
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Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Aug 16, 2021 10:57:14 GMT
I've always argued here that the actual design of the dungeon itself is very good, one of Ian's best actually. But the book could definitely do with some fixes:
- Develop a bit of lore for the dungeon - Why does it exist? Why are there so many monsters in it? Who is the Evil Wizard? Why is there an artist there? How did the dragon get in - is there a giant hole in the ceiling? Just an odd sentence here or there would make the whole thing feel a lot less random. - We don't need 97,000 useless items. One or two red herrings keeps things interesting, but so much of what you note on your adventure sheet serves no purpose. - Related to the above point, get rid of the inexplicable dungeon shop. The items he sells you can instead replace some of the useless items scattered in the dungeon - Get rid of the Hell Demon fight and that weird bit where a passing mercenary taps you on the shoulder while you are fighting some orcs - Cut it down to an even 400 sections. Should be easy enough given the number of times you search a room only to find a useless item, the mercenary incident and the hell demon - No need for you and Littlebig to constantly be slapping one another on the back - Sharcle should actually poison you and rather than you taking the poison deliberately, he should sneak it into your food and say he will only give you the antidote if you get the statuette for him - No need for a Yaztromo cameo - Most items with Skill bonuses should have Attack Strength bonuses instead - The dungeon becomes a bit more linear after Littlebig joins. Some of the encounters in these later stages could be put on mutually exclusive paths to prevent this. - The Gigantis and Doppleganger should both be somewhat nerfed (although fixing the Skill vs Attack Strength issue should make these fights somewhat easier anyway). Littlebig having a Skill of 9 rather than 8 would also help.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,472
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Aug 14, 2021 20:20:04 GMT
Is the face on the goblet from the Healer's cave in Caverns of the Snow Witch?
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kieran
Baron
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Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Aug 14, 2021 18:41:45 GMT
The gnome from Forest of Doom is sitting on a window sill
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,472
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Aug 13, 2021 22:52:53 GMT
Riddling reaver, has to be one of the best protagonists in the whole series. As illustrated in magehunter, for preference, rather than the lizard man on the titular book cover. I'm sure this would be much to Paul's annoyance but I always think of the Reaver as a lizard-like creature and have to correct myself that he's not. I guess that cover made quite the impression on me.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,472
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Aug 13, 2021 18:48:42 GMT
I like Balthazar Sturm's mad scientist vibe so I'll vote for him.
I really like Astragal and think he's better than a Yaztromo knock-off as he is often dismissed. But the Riddling Reaver is probably my favourite FF character so sorry Gally.
The backstory to the Dire Spectre is pretty intriguing but he doesn't really have much in the way of personality. Grimslade has plenty though and there's quite a lot of options and consequences in dealing with him so I'll go with him.
And speaking of zero personality, Arachnos is probably the most bland villain in FF. Sukumvit wins this one handily.
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