kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,434
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
|
Post by kieran on Jul 3, 2019 22:30:31 GMT
If it did explode, then I guess we have that to thank for the increasing level of irrational difficulty. Weren't there a lot of fans writing into Warlock magazine complaining that the books were too easy?
|
|
|
Post by The Count on Dec 15, 2019 23:41:06 GMT
I ended up buying a copy of the new printing of this recently as I remember enjoying it (though I preferred Trial of Champions) and want to support these reissues in the hope of getting more of them and some more new books so have been playing it quite a bit.
The new illustrations are mostly terrible - most criminal is the big clue to what is otherwise an arbitrary 50/50 instant death is gone though the orc with morning star is quite good if you don't compare it to the original...
Biggest things to come out of it are:
The writing is rather bland and you know as soon as you leave the true path as it gets worse. Far too many human / "good" humanoid encounters for a dungeon setting - where are the monsters? Despite having said that, I've never been a fan of the blood beast as something stuck in a pool should be avoidable... The first part is so matter of fact that it gets horribly boring after a couple of play throughs. It's very difficult to suspend belief when you realise no other contestants have taken anything of value - except the ninja who has magically avoided the pit fiend - or any must kill to win dangerous opponents.
I suppose most of this is down to being older now and not really replaying this one much when younger.
If there were a few different potentially viable routes until the pit fiend then it would be better. (Or if I could pass the required luck test to get past it...)
|
|
kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,434
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
|
Post by kieran on Dec 17, 2019 16:10:19 GMT
most criminal is the big clue to what is otherwise an arbitrary 50/50 instant death is gone Which death is that? I don't have the book to hand, but isn't it set up so you fall in the pool? True, it's more believable in Trial of Champions where you go in second and the dwarf gets stuck in the box pretty early on. In DD, one barbarian and the knight die fairly early and Throm enters after you. The ninja did get a diamond somewhere (perhaps in the empty chest) and the elf had that charm if I recall correctly. It's particularly odd that the goblins haven't been killed by the ninja or the elf since they're at a natural bottleneck and it seems unlikely they could enter the room without the goblins noticing. Maybe they went through a rock grub tunnel and were lucky enough not to get caught by any grubs. Being a ninja he probably just ran up its back then somersaulted off its head out of the pit.
|
|
|
Post by bloodbeasthandler on Dec 17, 2019 21:35:59 GMT
most criminal is the big clue to what is otherwise an arbitrary 50/50 instant death is gone Which death is that? I don't have the book to hand, but isn't it set up so you fall in the pool? True, it's more believable in Trial of Champions where you go in second and the dwarf gets stuck in the box pretty early on. In DD, one barbarian and the knight die fairly early and Throm enters after you. The ninja did get a diamond somewhere (perhaps in the empty chest) and the elf had that charm if I recall correctly. It's particularly odd that the goblins haven't been killed by the ninja or the elf since they're at a natural bottleneck and it seems unlikely they could enter the room without the goblins noticing. Maybe they went through a rock grub tunnel and were lucky enough not to get caught by any grubs. Being a ninja he probably just ran up its back then somersaulted off its head out of the pit.
You slide down a chute to the Bloodbeast chamber, which doesn't look very big in the first place (see book's front cover). Para 90: "A narrow path runs around the edge of the pool and leads into another tunnel in the far wall". The bloodbeast is sat in a pool in the middle of the room and can use its tongue to reach its prey.
Throm avoids picking anything up but you do see evidence of his progress with a couple of dead orc guards [para 338]. He has typically left the necklace behind.
Is the dungeon set up initially and then remains unchanged throughout? Or could things reset or be amended for different contestants? If the Knight had got the emerald and had been subsequently turned to stone, does it mean no-one could have won that year? Are dead hobgoblins swept up and replaced for the next contestant? Who knows?!
|
|
|
Post by a moderator on Dec 17, 2019 23:43:54 GMT
most criminal is the big clue to what is otherwise an arbitrary 50/50 instant death is gone Which death is that? Probably the gas-filled fake gem on the idol.
|
|
|
Post by schlendrian on Dec 18, 2019 13:33:57 GMT
What clue was there?
|
|
|
Post by The Count on Dec 18, 2019 16:22:32 GMT
Probably the gas-filled fake gem on the idol. That's the one. Having a very subtle clue in an illustration or within the text makes a FF book so much better so it annoyed me that this was missing
|
|
|
Post by The Count on Dec 18, 2019 16:27:29 GMT
One of the eyes has a glimmer of light effect applied to it in the original - very subtle yet it makes a difference.
|
|
|
Post by schlendrian on Dec 18, 2019 19:19:20 GMT
I hope no one's getting fed up with me always ranting about missing illus in the German translation, but - for me, it always was an arbitrary 50/50 chance, because that specific picture was cut
|
|
|
Post by dragonwarrior8 on Dec 18, 2019 19:31:48 GMT
Is it made clear though if you are prising out the statues left eye or the eye on YOUR left? If not then you are kind of back where you started.
|
|
|
Post by bloodbeasthandler on Dec 18, 2019 19:37:50 GMT
One of the eyes has a glimmer of light effect applied to it in the original - very subtle yet it makes a difference. That's right. Is the illustration for para 122 [the two flights of steps] another example of Iain McCaig trying to help us? One of the shrunken skulls is looking at the safer flight of steps.
Any other examples?
|
|
kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,434
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
|
Post by kieran on Dec 18, 2019 23:02:33 GMT
One of the eyes has a glimmer of light effect applied to it in the original - very subtle yet it makes a difference. I don't think that's necessarily a bad idea. It rewards the player for spotting a subtle clue rather than relying on a 50/50 chance.
|
|
kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,434
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
|
Post by kieran on Dec 18, 2019 23:08:15 GMT
Siege of Sardath has a good one the illustration of Sorrel has a scar over the wrong eye so you can tell it's not really him
|
|
|
Post by bloodbeasthandler on Dec 21, 2019 8:18:38 GMT
Siege of Sardath has a good one the illustration of Sorrel has a scar over the wrong eye so you can tell it's not really him The Chattermatter in FF24. The pair of eyes up in the webs above the dead body. Seen them?
One from Creature of Havoc.
|
|
|
Post by The Count on Dec 30, 2019 4:11:07 GMT
I managed to finally finish successfully by rolling a Skill and Luck of 12 - and a Stamina of 14... making the rolls to avoid the pit fiend made a huge difference. From the elf to the manticore is the best part of the book, though I don't see why you have to lose a luck point for giving away some of the useless tat you've collected at one stage. Probably not going to replay this for a long time, unless I decide to do a playthrough blog for noone to read... One of the eyes has a glimmer of light effect applied to it in the original - very subtle yet it makes a difference. That's right. Is the illustration for para 122 [the two flights of steps] another example of Iain McCaig trying to help us? One of the shrunken skulls is looking at the safer flight of steps.
Any other examples?
They probably don't count as a hint as such but the cubes in Fangs of Fury weren't always obvious
|
|
|
Post by bloodbeasthandler on Feb 5, 2020 20:00:15 GMT
Is it made clear though if you are prising out the statues left eye or the eye on YOUR left? If not then you are kind of back where you started. That's true. Maybe this is a clue though?
|
|
|
Post by dragonwarrior8 on Feb 8, 2020 0:50:30 GMT
Is it made clear though if you are prising out the statues left eye or the eye on YOUR left? If not then you are kind of back where you started. That's true. Maybe this is a clue though? lol! Is he prising out the correct one there though or is he about to get a jet of poisonous gas to the face?
|
|
|
Post by a moderator on Feb 8, 2020 13:41:01 GMT
It's D&D, so even if he does get a faceful of poison gas, he can still make a Saving Roll and have a chance of surviving.
When I got up this morning I didn't expect to be revisiting an argument raised by a school friend in 1984!
|
|
|
Post by The Count on May 20, 2020 21:58:12 GMT
Siege of Sardath has a good one the illustration of Sorrel has a scar over the wrong eye so you can tell it's not really him The Chattermatter in FF24. The pair of eyes up in the webs above the dead body. Seen them?
One from Creature of Havoc. If I remember correctly, Temple of Terror has a good one. The message on the well can be used to help identify which out of the sun and moon doors is safe
|
|
|
Post by peasantscribbler on Jan 30, 2021 20:38:47 GMT
I recently replaced my Puffin edition with a Wizard edition, and I decided to have a go at it using the Wizard edition rules. Basically, this means that you can't eat provisions to restore stamina, but you have two measures of potion that you can use at any time. After a good number of failures, I finally won with starting stats of Sk=12, St=21, and Lu=7. I took the Potion of Strength and used my first measure in combat against the Ninja and my second measure in combat against the Manticore. I think that my dicing was a little better than average: for example, I didn't lose a luck test until the Ninja threw a throwing star at me. I got to Igbut with St=19, which was good because I really had no memory of the gem order for the door. I won with Sk=10, St=13, and Lu=3. Was it easier or harder than with Puffin rules? Probably a wash.
|
|
|
Post by tyrion on Jan 30, 2021 20:58:36 GMT
I didn't even realise the rules were different in the two editions. Mind you, it was only a couple of months ago that I found out I'd been playing combat all wrong (for over twenty years!) - I'd been rolling my attack strength first, and then my opponent's.
|
|
kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,434
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
|
Post by kieran on Jan 30, 2021 21:31:44 GMT
I didn't even realise the rules were different in the two editions. They're not really. Wizard messed up and printed the Warlock of Firetop Mountain rules rather than the ones for Deathtrap Dungeon. I do that too. It makes no practical difference anyway and just makes more sense to me.
|
|
|
Post by The Count on Jan 30, 2021 23:52:51 GMT
I didn't even realise the rules were different in the two editions. Mind you, it was only a couple of months ago that I found out I'd been playing combat all wrong (for over twenty years!) - I'd been rolling my attack strength first, and then my opponent's. I've always used different coloured dice and rolled them together. There was this one pair of ugly off white dice that I used to use for enemies as they tended to land on 1s and 2s with improbable frequency. They didn't help with Spellbreaker or Crypt though.
|
|
|
Post by zoove on Feb 3, 2022 8:55:48 GMT
Holy crap, I just finished this and I can safely say it's the single BEST FF book ever. I didn't have it as a kid, and only recently snagged a copy, and I'm kicking myself for not picking it up sooner. Took me 40 years to play this thing! The whole thing from start to finish is just incredible. Not easy, but not irritatingly difficult like other IL books. Plenty to explore, takes a few times to uncover the OTP, and finding the diamond was a nightmare, but just amazing. Teaming up with Crom was a nice little touch...finding opponents along the way, culminating in the Ninja...awesome. Just awesome. I'm planning to hand draw the map I scribbled down onto a giant size piece of paper so that one day I can pass it onto my currently 13 month old son.
Side note: I've often wondered...I know you can't exceed your original roll numbers, but say my initial skill is 10, and along the way I pick up a helmet, or magic item, or whatever that gives +1 skill...if I'm already at my initial level, sure, can't add it. But if I then get docked a skill point somewhere along the way, am I not allowed to pull the item out of my backpack and up my skill by 1? I always thought it was like, you had to put it on then and there or lose the option, but as I type this, it feels like a no-brainer that I should be making use of these in the event I ever lose skill points. Thoughts?
|
|
|
Post by philsadler on Feb 3, 2022 9:19:50 GMT
Strictly speaking what you ask is against the rules, but because the book is impossible without high stats, no one would blame you.
|
|
|
Post by a moderator on Feb 3, 2022 12:41:18 GMT
The rules don't really say anything about it either way. I don't see any issue with keeping item-derived Skill bonuses 'in reserve', so they don't allow you to exceed your Initial score, but can be used to compensate for penalties incurred after acquiring the item.
Something like the magical boost to stats provided by the old man if you solve the statue riddle is a different matter: if you're already at maximum, that bonus is just wasted.
|
|
|
Post by daredevil123 on Feb 3, 2022 17:33:18 GMT
I don't see any issue with keeping item-derived Skill bonuses 'in reserve', so they don't allow you to exceed your Initial score, but can be used to compensate for penalties incurred after acquiring the item. I agree with this interpretation - as I see it, the helmet grants a +1 Skill bonus inherent to the object, which can mitigate future Skill losses but cannot raise your Initial Skill or Attack Strength (although the latter aspect makes notoriously little sense).
|
|
|
Post by a moderator on Feb 3, 2022 18:06:26 GMT
For absurdity related to items which provide Skill bonuses, it's hard to beat what can happen with the chainmail coat in City of Thieves.
Say you've made it as far as the blacksmith without losing any Skill points, and buy the coat in the mistaken belief that it might reduce combat damage. Alas, it only provides +2 to Skill, which is of no use to you. Later on, you try to evade Sourbelly and Fatnose, and are forced to discard the chainmail coat during your escape bid. Ditching it causes you to lose 2 Skill, so getting rid of it leaves you in worse condition than you were before you put it on.
|
|
|
Post by CharlesX on Feb 3, 2022 18:53:29 GMT
For absurdity related to items which provide Skill bonuses, it's hard to beat what can happen with the chainmail coat in City of Thieves. Say you've made it as far as the blacksmith without losing any Skill points, and buy the coat in the mistaken belief that it might reduce combat damage. Alas, it only provides +2 to Skill, which is of no use to you. Later on, you try to evade Sourbelly and Fatnose, and are forced to discard the chainmail coat during your escape bid. Ditching it causes you to lose 2 Skill, so getting rid of it leaves you in worse condition than you were before you put it on. Going to state the obvious but the +2 skill bonus doesn't make much sense in terms of narrative and RPG structure, because you throw against your skill for anything, not just combat, it'd definitely make more sense if the chainmail affected damage against you (like the shield in the earlier WOFM).
|
|
|
Post by zoove on Feb 3, 2022 20:15:13 GMT
Speaking of CoT, I played that before DD and while it seems to be regarded as one the best of the books, I didn’t really enjoy it all that much. But then, until DD, my favourite of the books was Caverns of the Snow Witch. However, I think a lot of that is down to nostalgia as it was one of the books I had as a kid and I always loved the “travelling companions” element of it with Redswift and Stubb. It was so nice to have buddies along on what are usually such solitary adventures.
Reading back over the comments here… fascinating about the idol illustration. It always seems like such an arbitrary Insta-death and I wonder if anybody playing it back in the day picked up such a wonderfully subtle clue. And then the old man’s riddle. I struggled with it as a 48 year old, I can’t imagine many kids getting that. It’s so obvious when you think about it but it takes a while for your brain to grasp the correct logic of “100 plus half his weight”. I was embarrassed when I choose 150 at first. Maths was never my strong suit…..
|
|