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Post by Peter on Feb 5, 2022 1:21:36 GMT
The creators intended FF to be an introduction to role-playing, so they wanted simpler rules. In D&D you roll for 6 stats, you have saving throws against all sorts of things, you have weapons that do different amounts of damage, and you have modifiers for many of your rolls. To keep it simple, they chose to have one stat for 'general skill at doing things". Skill is a combination of strength, dexterity, agility, combat skill and anything else you want to throw in. This approach is both a strength and a weakness. It is easier to pick up and learn, but it leads to some non-sensical dice-rolling.
So they used the basic idea of stats for character creation, and during the adventure these may go up or down, but not infinitely. So they capped them at the initial rolls. Someone on this forum once suggested that you treat 12-24-12 as the pinnacle of human capability, and the numbers you roll are just starting stats. As has been hinted at above, another idea would be to keep the extra numbers "in reserve", so you don't lose any bonuses you were not allowed to use at the time you got them.
The other issue with books is the GM being replaced by a pre-written text. In an RPG, you can tell the GM that you are keeping the helmet in your pack for now, then try it on when your strength is flagging and you need a boost. With books, you can only do what is written. As another example, if you act aggressively towards someone and then calm down and talk to them, you should not get the same outcome as if you were friendly from the start. But in a book, that is what happens (you end up on the same page). A GM would adjust the pre-written guidelines accordingly, for the entirety of the encounter.
So my opinion is this: if you want to gain advantages by adapting the rules to create more realistic options, you should also accept the drawbacks of doing this. In short, you can't have it both ways. How much role-playing do you want to insert into your adventures? And how much should you? How do you decide where to draw the line? Perhaps you should disregard options that allow you to change your initial attitude towards an NPC, as they would not be likely to change their attitude towards you.
That is why I tend to just follow the written rules, even though it can be frustrating at times. If you want to make changes to improve the realism (or eliminate ludicrous restrictions), I would encourage you to consider this in both beneficial and disadvantageous situations.
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Post by a moderator on Feb 5, 2022 2:19:57 GMT
One problem is that all too often the writers don't pay sufficient attention to the written rules.
A lot of the issues with Skill bonuses would be reduced if the ones relating to weapons and armour were Attack Strength bonuses instead. Bringing in additional stats has its advantages and drawbacks, but when there's already a specific term relating to combat, and there's precedent for applying a bonus to it all the way back in the second book of the series, there's no good reason for saying 'Skill' when 'Attack Strength' would be a better fit.
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Post by tk_awake on Feb 17, 2022 8:50:26 GMT
Hi all, I have been reading over the comments on Deathtrap Dungeon and found it quite interesting. After six months, I finished the book last night with 14 adventure sheets and countless maps. I've got to say I loved it. I played the booked when I was younger and recently borrowed one from the local library and then decided to buy the new wizards ten pack. Talk about value for money. So complex yet so much fun. I found the discussion about saying +1 skill items for later quite interesting in the forums. Cheers
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Post by johnbrawn1972 on May 13, 2022 15:01:20 GMT
I have been hard at work on a new solution and it is for 12/14/7. The idea is to fight the Pit Fiend as a matter of course. I think this solution will work about 25% of the time which is about double the percentage of the main solution.
You need to be lucky to only lose 2 portions of provisions. Also it does not matter if you lose a skill point to fight the Ninja at the end as you should on average still finish with about 1 stamina point.
I have been using some of the very helpful matrices.
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IoannesKantakouzenos
Traveller
Being slowly eaten alive by a Ghoul
Posts: 105
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy (Aventuras Fantásticas)
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Post by IoannesKantakouzenos on Nov 10, 2022 21:02:58 GMT
After Assassins got my head spinning, my mind got struck by this one (yes, I have too much free time on my head): greenspine: _________________________________________ I can't argue with that 'nearly', but one mistake in the artwork was highlighted in Warlock magazine. Section 164 indicates that the person whose footprints you are following is wearing boots, but the illustration of his corpse by section 299 shows him to be barefoot. Not only he is barefoot, but he is lacking his battleaxe, which in the intro we are told he has. So, despite the lack of other footprints, and despite of them being very, very far, couldn't his boots and battleaxe have been taken by the Leprechauns?
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Post by a moderator on Nov 10, 2022 22:59:58 GMT
The axe could be just outside the frame of the picture, mixed in with the debris on the floor, where it landed after falling from his lifeless hand.
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IoannesKantakouzenos
Traveller
Being slowly eaten alive by a Ghoul
Posts: 105
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy (Aventuras Fantásticas)
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Post by IoannesKantakouzenos on Nov 11, 2022 9:42:02 GMT
I can concede to that, even though you cannot find it when you search his belongings.
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matt
Squire
Posts: 2
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Post by matt on Jan 13, 2023 6:39:28 GMT
I just replayed DD after first playing it nearly 40 years ago. I really enjoyed it (the Wizard Books version). I loved being hoisted up to meet Ivy, and then having a nice chat with her …
One issue is that the rules state you may only eat provisions when the option is given, but to my knowledge this never occurs. You can take 2 potions of Strength which becomes absolutely necessary (at least it was for me).
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Post by tyrion on Jan 13, 2023 7:06:01 GMT
I just replayed DD after first playing it nearly 40 years ago. I really enjoyed it (the Wizard Books version). I loved being hoisted up to meet Ivy, and then having a nice chat with her … One issue is that the rules state you may only eat provisions when the option is given, but to my knowledge this never occurs. You can take 2 potions of Strength which becomes absolutely necessary (at least it was for me). That's a mistake in the wizard version. They just printed the rules from warlock of firetop mountain, rather than from deathtrap dungeon. You can eat provisions whenever you want (but only get one potion).
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Post by a moderator on Jan 13, 2023 9:31:20 GMT
I just replayed DD after first playing it nearly 40 years ago. I really enjoyed it (the Wizard Books version). I loved being hoisted up to meet Ivy, and then having a nice chat with her … One issue is that the rules state you may only eat provisions when the option is given, but to my knowledge this never occurs. You can take 2 potions of Strength which becomes absolutely necessary (at least it was for me). That's a mistake in the wizard version. They just printed the rules from warlock of firetop mountain, rather than from deathtrap dungeon. You can eat provisions whenever you want (but only get one potion). Not quite 'whenever you want'. The original book says:
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IoannesKantakouzenos
Traveller
Being slowly eaten alive by a Ghoul
Posts: 105
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy (Aventuras Fantásticas)
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Post by IoannesKantakouzenos on Oct 24, 2023 22:21:09 GMT
Question:
So whatever happened to those townspeople? Couldn't have been killed, because that would generate too much hate from the remaining folks and they wouldn't consider the Trial as the peak of their year. And, if they are alive, why doesn't any contestant try to find one of them and squeeze them for informations?
Yeah, I am quite bored. But anyway, slaves would have been a better option to build a dungeon *and* keeping its secrets airtight.
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Post by scouserob on Oct 24, 2023 23:04:02 GMT
I don’t think knowing the layout would help that much. (Assuming Sukumvit had his trial masters and their slaves lay out the creatures, traps and items after the townspeople had helped with constructing the tunnels and chambers.)
There aren’t many dead ends that foreknowledge would be helpful for. Most paths lead eventually to that one exit. And even those few dead ends, such as the boulder trap and the magical illusion trap (if you don’t go with Throm) could just as easily hold crucial items as deadly traps.
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Post by CharlesX on Oct 25, 2023 9:16:48 GMT
Question: So whatever happened to those townspeople? Couldn't have been killed, because that would generate too much hate from the remaining folks and they wouldn't consider the Trial as the peak of their year. And, if they are alive, why doesn't any contestant try to find one of them and squeeze them for informations? Yeah, I am quite bored. But anyway, slaves would have been a better option to build a dungeon *and* keeping its secrets airtight. There is often little distinction between common charlatans and iron fist tyrants with slaves. Like Communist China and Communist Germany, Mussolini and Bonaparte, the Czars and the Stalinists.
If those townspeople were paid a wage that is barely enough to cover their housing and food then that is slavery, and that's the way peasants were normally treated at that time (and mostly still can be, except in continental europe). "After you're done building this ginormous pointless Trial worth more than you earn in many years, get to work building Lord Azzur's second Palace and some very big statues of me. I heard from my secret police you don't have a problem with that." Edit: I may have gone off rather on the last sentence of your question - but I suppose the stuff about secret police might address your main point.
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IoannesKantakouzenos
Traveller
Being slowly eaten alive by a Ghoul
Posts: 105
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy (Aventuras Fantásticas)
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Post by IoannesKantakouzenos on Oct 25, 2023 21:47:23 GMT
Yeah… I guess your reasoning is sound. It wasn't seeming logical for my peabrain mind how folks would so willingly build a maze just for kicks - which would bring me to the matter of a gathering audience just to watch a random set of people entering said maze… but since that has already been discussed above, I shan't go into it again.
Trying to add some value to this post, I shall add that, as a tidbit, in the Portuguese version of this book, the Pit Fiend is called a "Tiranossauro" (Tyrannosaurus) - I'll bet due to Ian McCaig's illustration -, Hobgoblins get called "Duendes Malignos" (Evil Duende), Goblins are dubbed "Gnomos" (Gnomes)* and the Rock Grub becomes "Comedor de Pedra" (Rock Eater).
*- however Igbut in (364) also calls himself a "Gnomo".
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Post by enigma1612 on Jan 4, 2024 14:52:56 GMT
There is a very annoying missprint in the German translation of the book (at least in the first printings from Thienemann. In chapter 382 you are asked to solve a math puzzle involving the weight of a stone statue and the correct solution leads to instant death. I was quite shocked and wondered what I did wrong only to find out that the correct solution is indicated as such in the english version.
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Post by schlendrian on Jan 4, 2024 20:51:17 GMT
at least in the first printings from Thienemann Servus Enigma!
The same error appears in the later Thienemann collections (collecting Forest, DD and Scorpion Swamp in one volume) and I'd wager they didn't correct it for the Goldmann reissues, though I have nothing to back that up.
It could be a printing error but I could also imagine the translator thinking the answer should be 150 and altering it ("Ich änder' das jetzt mal. Ich, als Übersetzer!")
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Post by enigma1612 on Jan 4, 2024 21:56:39 GMT
at least in the first printings from Thienemann Servus Enigma!
The same error appears in the later Thienemann collections (collecting Forest, DD and Scorpion Swamp in one volume) and I'd wager they didn't correct it for the Goldmann reissues, though I have nothing to back that up.
It could be a printing error but I could also imagine the translator thinking the answer should be 150 and altering it ("Ich änder' das jetzt mal. Ich, als Übersetzer!")
Thanks for the clarification. I thought the same thing. It is easy to fall into the trap, thinking this is a very easy answer without thinking it through completely. Interesting to know that they did not correct the error in later printings. It is unfortunate that it directly leads to instant death if correct and rewards the lazy answer... May I take it from your picture of the "SOL" that you are also a Perry Rhodan fan? Ah, the good old times.... I haven't read the series for at least 30 years and now I am just to scarred to jump in - there is so much material.
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Post by schlendrian on Jan 5, 2024 13:51:15 GMT
May I take it from your picture of the "SOL" that you are also a Perry Rhodan fan? Ah, the good old times.... I haven't read the series for at least 30 years and now I am just to scarred to jump in - there is so much material. Well spotted
Right now I'm not reading the the recent publications (the Erstauflage) but I'm still dabbling in some of the older stuff, the Plophos Cycle at the moment. There just comes a time when you realize there is more Perry Rhodan than a person can read in it's lifetime and you have to select what you actually want to read
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Per
Traveller
AHAHAHA!
Posts: 150
Favourite Gamebook Series: Morris VR, some FF, Chalk LW
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Post by Per on Jan 5, 2024 15:44:19 GMT
If there's someone who's consumed all the official Perry Rhodan and Doctor Who material, maybe they can write a proper crossover gamebook.
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Post by schlendrian on Jan 5, 2024 17:18:30 GMT
Now that sounds like a life goal! "I spent decades of my life reading into and making notes about two vast science-fiction franchises so I could write a gamebook that doesn't appeal to Germans because they don't know Dr Who and doesn't appeal to Brits because they don't know Perry Rhodan!"
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Post by CharlesX on Jan 5, 2024 17:23:23 GMT
Now that sounds like a life goal! "I spent decades of my life reading into and making notes about two vast science-fiction franchises so I could write a gamebook that doesn't appeal to Germans because they don't know Dr Who and doesn't appeal to Brits because they don't know Perry Rhodan!" <pedant> Perhaps you don't know it's (normally) Doctor Who, not Dr Who <pedant>. Proving a point, perhaps.
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Post by a moderator on Jan 5, 2024 18:43:20 GMT
Now that sounds like a life goal! "I spent decades of my life reading into and making notes about two vast science-fiction franchises so I could write a gamebook that doesn't appeal to Germans because they don't know Dr Who and doesn't appeal to Brits because they don't know Perry Rhodan!" Talking of crossovers with limited overlap between fandoms, there is one official Star Trek novel that's apparently also a tie-in with a largely forgotten comedy series that had the actor who played Spock's father as a regular. Anyway, Deathtrap Dungeon...
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Post by schlendrian on Jan 6, 2024 9:33:43 GMT
Anyway, Deathtrap Dungeon... Alright, I can take a hint.
FF heroes are notorious for going on adventures with very little equipment. The concept of Deathtrap Dungeon, however lends itself to preparing, years in advance, if needs be. So if I was an adventurer thinking about going, I would be thinking about teaming up. Registering yourself and, say, three hero friends for the challenge, obviously without telling anyone that you are going to cooperate once inside the Dungeon. Yes, if you get to the end together you know you probably will have to fight over who gets the prize, but until then you should have a great advantage throughout.
Thoughts or other things you think would make sensible preparation before taking the walk (obviously the premise here is that you don't know what happens inside the dungeon, that f.e. the trialmaster breaks up teams)?
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Post by CharlesX on Jan 6, 2024 10:15:16 GMT
While you are given a potion that's very paltry considering the kind of magic you could be trained with. For that matter, a magic-user (such as more than one Elf) might make a better entrant than the dominantly stereotypical mix of barbarians, dwarves and fighters who enter the trial. All the Livingstone-esque scrolls of fireball-repelling and multicoloured keys are the sorts of things you should already have. Or like Legend Of The Shadow Warriors you could at least spend a few paragraphs deciding what you want before your quest. To me though, Deathtrap Dungeon makes sense not as a prize but mainly a sentence. Most entrants aren't doing it voluntarily but are forced to like Trial Of Champions or Assassins Of Allansia, as almost everyone fails. Perhaps making sure adventurers are ill-equipped is part of the game, like public hanging.
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,678
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Jan 6, 2024 22:26:34 GMT
I can only assume that Baron Sukumvit has some ruling in what contestants are allowed to take. As challenging as the trial is, there needs to be some degree of 'fairness' involved, otherwise the event would not go forward at all.
Contestants cannot be so powerful that they can just waltz through the challenge on a whim; they cannot bring friends or helpers with them; and they cannot go in with more than the bare minimum of equipment. The Baron must at all times honour the spirit of the challenge: he cannot decide who wins or loses in the trial; the trial must actually be winnable; and the prize (every penny) must be given if the dungeon is beaten. It would make the most sense if all parties involved were aware of these terms (and likely a few others) prior to entering the contest. Another point would be that the trial must have some sort of deadline to prevent contestants from deliberately taking too long. Either have scrying tools or have minions sent in to drive them forwards.
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