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Post by dragonwarrior8 on Dec 15, 2018 17:19:56 GMT
One thing that has been nagging me about this book that perhaps someone can help me out with. How does Shireela die exactly? She challenges you to the rock-paper-scissors game saying if you win she will give you a chance to escape. So you win, and she....kills herself? The only thing I can think of is that she tried to cave the roof in on you and got herself in the process instead. Or perhaps she really isn't defeated at all and returns in a later book I haven't read yet?
I also think this book missed a wonderful opportunity for a really great "Sixth Sense" type ending. There is a very strange encounter in the middle where you fight zombie versions of Redswift and Stubb. This seemed so odd to me (as did the tacked on section that followed) that as I was playing through the rest of the book I thought for sure when you got to the end it would turn out that you never actually left the caverns at all and that was in fact the REAL Redswift and Stubb you had killed. Shireela was pretty big on illusions after all. The book could have had you either kill Shireela for real at that point or even go all out with a depressing ending where you think you make it back to Stonebridge with your friends and rejoice only to reveal the truth in paragraph 400. Maybe I was giving Livingstone too much credit?
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,458
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Dec 16, 2018 9:46:11 GMT
One thing that has been nagging me about this book that perhaps someone can help me out with. How does Shireela die exactly? She challenges you to the rock-paper-scissors game saying if you win she will give you a chance to escape. So you win, and she....kills herself? The only thing I can think of is that she tried to cave the roof in on you and got herself in the process instead. Or perhaps she really isn't defeated at all and returns in a later book I haven't read yet? I assume she was being technically honest but with a twist in the game. If the hero won, she would trigger the cave to collapse killing herself but also hoping it would kill the player at the same time. Ed Jolley wrote a sequel for Fighting Fantazine issue 9 by the way, well worth checking out: fightingfantazine.co.uk/page/Pretty cool idea. It's also interesting that you can befriend an elf and a dwarf at earlier points of the adventure. I used to assume these two were actually Redswift and Stubb but they don't formally introduce themselves until after you beat the Snow Witch. Though since it's possible to kill the elf and it seems the dwarf wasn't a slave then I guess this isn't true. I also wonder if the fight with the zombies was initially going to be a fight against Redswift and Stubb after the Snow Witch returns and enforces her influence over them once more but Ian couldn't make it work so used zombies instead.
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Post by dragonwarrior8 on Dec 17, 2018 0:45:30 GMT
Thanks Kieran! I will definitely check out the sequel.
Yeah this book just really frustrated me and not because of the difficulty or the length but because it seemed like with some design or story changes this could have been a really great one.
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Post by dragonwarrior8 on Dec 19, 2018 13:44:39 GMT
Another story related question I forget to ask in my first post as I was so obsessed with the zombie-friends episode...but Im assuming the old man you encounter on the plains is supposed to be Zagor? That was my first impression mostly because Stubb asks whatever happened to the Wizard at Firetop and just as you are about to open your mouth the old man appears. Sure seemed like foreshadowing. Reminded me of.."Its a bird! No, its a plane! No its...." (Clark Kent walks in) "You wanted to see me chief?"
Plus the illustration looks like the old man is carrying all his worldly possessions after some maniac just destroyed his home and killed all his friends.
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Post by a moderator on Dec 19, 2018 20:32:08 GMT
Interesting theory, and not one I've ever encountered before.
I think the old man is too helpful to be Zagor - yes, he charges for the information, but I'd expect Zagor to take the money, lie, and shadow you to the poisoned water-hole in the hope that the poison would kill the lot of you, leaving him free to loot your corpses.
As for the getting interrupted before you could answer Stubb's question, I always took it as a means of avoiding contradicting the outcome of the reader's last attempt at TWoFM.
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Post by zoove on Jul 7, 2019 9:21:29 GMT
Bumping this thread as I'm playing this book currently and running into some extremely frustrating death situations. Just met the Snow Witch and had a rune stick to try staking her with but unless your Skill is higher than 10, you just die. No fight. No test your luck. Just...you die.
Now, the Hints on Play section clearly states that any player who takes the right path should be able to get through despite their initial dice rolls. But how is this possible if anyone under TEN Skill gets killed by the Snow Witch without even a fight?! Am I missing something here? Maybe I missed a cavern opening where a wizard awards you a bunch of skill points over and above your initial score?
Gahhh... Ian Livingstone!! I loved this book as a kid and I really like it now (add me to the list of people who love the quasi-woodcut illustration style) but it's just fraught with unfair scenarios for fair players.
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Post by a moderator on Jul 7, 2019 11:39:12 GMT
If you have garlic as well as the rune stick, death is not automatic - you need to succeed at a Skill roll, but it's still more of a chance than the automatic death you've found.
Mind you, what with the Yeti and a certain unavoidable fight in the second half of the adventure, anyone with a single-figure Skill is unlikely to make it through all the fights. From around Deathtrap Dungeon up until they finally dropped the 'Hints on Play' page, the bit about having a chance even with lousy stats was untrue.
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Post by johnbrawn1972 on Jul 7, 2019 13:02:25 GMT
If you have garlic as well as the rune stick, death is not automatic - you need to succeed at a Skill roll, but it's still more of a chance than the automatic death you've found. Mind you, what with the Yeti and a certain unavoidable fight in the second half of the adventure, anyone with a single-figure Skill is unlikely to make it through all the fights. From around Deathtrap Dungeon up until they finally dropped the 'Hints on Play' page, the bit about having a chance even with lousy stats was untrue. Even 9/24/12 has no chance whatsoever.
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Post by zoove on Jul 7, 2019 13:06:16 GMT
Ah yes, the garlic. I feel very stupid now. I forgot about that. I was asked a ref previously if I had any, and I didn't. Looks like I need a third go through to see if I can get the true path. Would be nice if Ian could give us a few less arduous battles along the way. How about that Crystal Warrior? The Ice Demon? Talk about stamina drainers.
Taking a detour with Starship Traveller first. Which I could hardly believe I came across in mint condition (pre-Green Zigzag) for $2 in a second hand book store a month or so ago. Hadn't read this one back in the day and am delighted to see it's a thinly veiled rip off of Star Trek, a favourite of mine.
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Post by johnbrawn1972 on Jul 7, 2019 13:15:05 GMT
Ah yes, the garlic. I feel very stupid now. I forgot about that. I was asked a ref previously if I had any, and I didn't. Looks like I need a third go through to see if I can get the true path. Would be nice if Ian could give us a few less arduous battles along the way. How about that Crystal Warrior? The Ice Demon? Talk about stamina drainers. Taking a detour with Starship Traveller first. Which I could hardly believe I came across in mint condition (pre-Green Zigzag) for $2 in a second hand book store a month or so ago. Hadn't read this one back in the day and am delighted to see it's a thinly veiled rip off of Star Trek, a favourite of mine. The considered opinion is to leave the spear and war-hammer because even if you roll 2-6 with the spear it is only a slight advantage but it means you have to fight the Crystal Warrior as well. It is better to fight the Yeti with 12/14/7 or 11/24/12 so you have a chance and then use the genie to render you invisible to evade the Crystal Warrior. The high numbers above are necessary otherwise you will never defeat the Bird-Man.
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vagsancho
Knight
Posts: 809
Favourite Gamebook Series: CRYPT OF THE SORCERER
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Post by vagsancho on Jul 11, 2019 12:55:05 GMT
Never understand why did my fellow Redswift let go his friend Stubb, without warning him about the death spell. Not understandable.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,458
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Jul 11, 2019 13:04:43 GMT
Never understand why did my fellow Redswift let go his friend Stubb, without warning him about the death spell. Not understandable. Stubb was never affected by the Death Spell. You read it, but don't understand it - affected. Redswift reads it and does understand it - affected. Stubb never reads it - not affected.
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Post by johnbrawn1972 on Jul 11, 2019 14:27:23 GMT
Never understand why did my fellow Redswift let go his friend Stubb, without warning him about the death spell. Not understandable. Stubb was never affected by the Death Spell. You read it, but don't understand it - affected. Redswift reads it and does understand it - affected. Stubb never reads it - not affected. Wow. I never knew that. So Stubb would never have to carry the burden of the understanding with him.
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Post by dragonwarrior8 on Jul 11, 2019 15:52:56 GMT
Seems like a pretty powerful item to say the least. Just "leaflet bomb" any village you dont like with these.
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Post by johnbrawn1972 on Jul 11, 2019 16:28:13 GMT
Seems like a pretty powerful item to say the least. Just "leaflet bomb" any village you dont like with these. It is a good job Dick Cheney did not have access to these.
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Post by a moderator on Jul 11, 2019 16:34:09 GMT
Seems like a pretty powerful item to say the least. Just "leaflet bomb" any village you dont like with these. Depends what it takes to make one. If the creator has to spend 20 Stamina to imbue it with killing power, only the most powerful of sorcerers would be able to survive the process.
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Post by johnbrawn1972 on Jul 11, 2019 16:45:28 GMT
Seems like a pretty powerful item to say the least. Just "leaflet bomb" any village you dont like with these. Depends what it takes to make one. If the creator has to spend 20 Stamina to imbue it with killing power, only the most powerful of sorcerers would be able to survive the process. We all know the answer to this simply have a banquet of 5 portions of dinner.
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Post by daredevil123 on Jul 11, 2019 16:49:15 GMT
Depends what it takes to make one. If the creator has to spend 20 Stamina to imbue it with killing power, only the most powerful of sorcerers would be able to survive the process. We all know the answer to this simply have a banquet of 5 portions of dinner. That wouldn't be any good if the creator's initial Stamina was less than 21 though.
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Post by johnbrawn1972 on Jul 11, 2019 16:52:19 GMT
We all know the answer to this simply have a banquet of 5 portions of dinner. That wouldn't be any good if the creator's initial Stamina was less than 21 though. Even the ZED spell only cost 7 stamina.
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Post by a moderator on Jul 11, 2019 17:39:52 GMT
According to the original AFF handbook, Dungeoneer, casting a Death spell costs 10 Stamina (and causes the caster to age a year). There's likely to be additional Stamina cost for imbuing it into an item, and for making it work against more than one person - probably not enough to double the Stamina cost, but still potentially enough to kill off some wizards before they can even start unwarpping their sandwiches.
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Post by johnbrawn1972 on Jul 11, 2019 17:52:12 GMT
According to the original AFF handbook, Dungeoneer, casting a Death spell costs 10 Stamina (and causes the caster to age a year). There's likely to be additional Stamina cost for imbuing it into an item, and for making it work against more than one person - probably not enough to double the Stamina cost, but still potentially enough to kill off some wizards before they can even start unwarpping their sandwiches. I like the idea of serious consequences for such a thing. I wonder if you know who from Crypt had a passion for these.
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Post by dragonwarrior8 on Jul 12, 2019 2:39:56 GMT
According to the original AFF handbook, Dungeoneer, casting a Death spell costs 10 Stamina (and causes the caster to age a year). There's likely to be additional Stamina cost for imbuing it into an item, and for making it work against more than one person - probably not enough to double the Stamina cost, but still potentially enough to kill off some wizards before they can even start unwarpping their sandwiches.
Interesting info regarding the cost. At least undead sorcerers (like Shireela) would avoid the aging a year penalty. Man, the undead get all the breaks.
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vagsancho
Knight
Posts: 809
Favourite Gamebook Series: CRYPT OF THE SORCERER
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Post by vagsancho on Jul 12, 2019 8:50:56 GMT
[quote author=" dragonwarrior8" Interesting info regarding the cost. At least undead sorcerers (like Shireela) would avoid the aging a year penalty. Man, the undead get all the breaks.
[/quote] Who is Shireela?
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,458
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Jul 12, 2019 11:04:12 GMT
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vagsancho
Knight
Posts: 809
Favourite Gamebook Series: CRYPT OF THE SORCERER
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Post by vagsancho on Jul 12, 2019 14:14:57 GMT
Fantastic book. All about it is fantastic. The begining, the middle and the ending are all fantastic. Epic. Livingstone is the number 1 writer of FF books.
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vagsancho
Knight
Posts: 809
Favourite Gamebook Series: CRYPT OF THE SORCERER
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Post by vagsancho on Jul 14, 2019 12:19:43 GMT
Tired.. . SO TIRED... It was a very long path indeed... The snow mosnter hunt.. The cold... The cristal caves.. The witch.. The walking away from the snow... The walking for stonebridge.. The death spell... The progressive weakening.. The death of my friend.. The walking to the mountains again... The hiller.. And the top of the firetop mountain...... Have no more strengths in me... Just need to rest a month... Or two.. TIRED... SO TIRED...
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Post by johnbrawn1972 on Sept 19, 2019 13:16:03 GMT
Are the elfin boots anything other than a curse?
As far as I can tell they just allow you a 3% chance of failure?
I had a look earlier to see if there was a possibility of offloading the war-hammer and also the elfin boots. The annoying structure of the book means there is no way as far as I can see.
I was hoping there was a way to acquire Gold Pieces but the structure is all wrong. You are asked about the war-hammer before the treasure chamber and then you acquire the elfin boots after the treasure chamber.
Infernal structure of the book.
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Post by tyrion on Sept 19, 2019 21:33:38 GMT
Can anyone confirm which printing of the scholastic versions have the better illustrations? I'm thinking that initially it had the awful blocky ones but have recently redone them? Thanks.
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Post by johnbrawn1972 on Sept 19, 2019 23:05:30 GMT
I have been messing about with probabilities with this book and although it is unlikely it seems to me you can end up with a luck of 0 before you use the Potion of Fortune to restore your luck to 8 in my parsimonious system.
This necessitates winning the Bird-Men fight with a skill of 11 which is improbable though not impossible.
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Post by The Count on Oct 22, 2019 21:39:28 GMT
Can anyone confirm which printing of the scholastic versions have the better illustrations? I'm thinking that initially it had the awful blocky ones but have recently redone them? Thanks. I like them better than the original ones. The cover is a vast improvement as well. It'sa shame that this ended up being so tedious - a better final encounter with the Snow Witch and a successful ending once you escaped the caverns instead of the silly disc game and slog across the wilderness in search of references to other (much easier) livingstone penned adventures.
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