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Post by The Count on Apr 13, 2020 12:20:38 GMT
I caved in and bought the new version thinking it would be a suitable challenge during the lock down - and after half a dozen attempts, the latest on 11/17/12 have no desire to pick it up ever again as it's so tedious. I know I missed an essential item as I had to fight the white dragon, yet had that encounter finished me off (survived with 1 stamina!) I might have been tempted to try again. Instead, I managed to apparently kill the baddie, escape and keel over after missing another essential item.
The actual caverns seem more like a walk through a small, badly stocked ikea during a sale and is over before you notice. Both encounters with Shireela are anti climatic and probably stolen from a passing 4 year old with no imagination. The tacked on slog at the end takes far longer just to kill you off hand - and I suspect your character actually dies of boredom following blatant advertising for previous titles rammed in at every opportunity.
If he had concentrated on the actual Caverns and titular Snow Witch, this would have been an epic book, and perfect for a follow up where you discover the she is still alive and you are cursed with a death spell.
Some of the new illustrations are great - the Snow Wolf, dead dwarf, cover and what I presume is the dark elf especially.
I hope Assassins isn't similarly a waste of time and money...
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Post by Peter on Apr 14, 2020 6:15:20 GMT
The whole slog through the countryside seemed like a travelogue to promote the newly-created land of Allansia. The initial, self-contained adventure in Warlock magazine worked ok, but then it looks like someone from the marketing department got involved and said "why don't you push this Allansia idea through a gamebook, maybe tack something onto the half-length one you've already written?"
Personally, I was never interested in the world behind the books - to me, each book was a separate story, a separate idea, with no need to link them all together. I guess in the early days, before they ramped things up with the magazine and the one-a-month schedule, you had time to get fully familiar with each book before the next one came out. To me, each new book was a new experience. It was like buying a new board game - I didn't expect it to link to the previous game I had bought.
Reading this forum, I seem to be in a minority with this opinion. Did any other "early adopters" feel this way?
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Post by stevendoig on Apr 14, 2020 6:30:25 GMT
Nope, afraid not! In fact, I remember sitting reading "Phantoms of Fear" and finding a reference to Affen Forest (from Masks of Mayhem) and being so excited I ran to tell my Mum! (who obviously was confused and couldnae care less)
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Post by The Count on Apr 14, 2020 23:38:35 GMT
The whole slog through the countryside seemed like a travelogue to promote the newly-created land of Allansia. The initial, self-contained adventure in Warlock magazine worked ok, but then it looks like someone from the marketing department got involved and said "why don't you push this Allansia idea through a gamebook, maybe tack something onto the half-length one you've already written?" Personally, I was never interested in the world behind the books - to me, each book was a separate story, a separate idea, with no need to link them all together. I guess in the early days, before they ramped things up with the magazine and the one-a-month schedule, you had time to get fully familiar with each book before the next one came out. To me, each new book was a new experience. It was like buying a new board game - I didn't expect it to link to the previous game I had bought. Reading this forum, I seem to be in a minority with this opinion. Did any other "early adopters" feel this way? I was, and still am, very intrigued by the wider FF world and each of its continents, and how the myriad books with their evil despotic antagonists fit into it when it is done well (Phantoms of Fear, The Crimson Tide, Moon Runner to name a few). When it is Ian however, he is ramming references to past books into various adventures with all the subtlety of a herd of loudly, pungently defecating elephants thundering through Harrods perfume department, pursued by a bellowing Brian Blessed brandishing a large ham and wearing a pair of ridiculously oversized comedy breasts which are broadcasting the benny hill theme tune.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,437
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Apr 15, 2020 9:07:57 GMT
When it is Ian however, he is ramming references to past books into various adventures with all the subtlety of a herd of loudly, pungently defecating elephants thundering through Harrods perfume department, pursued by a bellowing Brian Blessed brandishing a large ham and wearing a pair of ridiculously oversized comedy breasts which are broadcasting the benny hill theme tune. This made me quite literally lol
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Apr 15, 2020 22:13:53 GMT
The whole slog through the countryside seemed like a travelogue to promote the newly-created land of Allansia. The initial, self-contained adventure in Warlock magazine worked ok, but then it looks like someone from the marketing department got involved and said "why don't you push this Allansia idea through a gamebook, maybe tack something onto the half-length one you've already written?" Round about this time we see the other authors being brought in. Most likely it was Ian and Steve being asked to produce more and more gamebooks at a rate they simply couldn't keep up, so extra paragraphs were added to the end of the Warlock version of Caverns of the Snow Witch and the book sent out. Either that or Ian was halfway through the book anyway and they wanted material for Warlock and made do with what had already been written. I don't know. Same happened with House of Hell and that wasn't set in Allansia. Personally, I was never interested in the world behind the books - to me, each book was a separate story, a separate idea, with no need to link them all together. Complete opposite for me - at the time I enjoyed seeing how the areas linked up or were mentioned in passing, Mungo mentioning DD on the way to Fire Island, or Ivy's mentioning her brother in Port Blacksand. I liked FF29 set in Blacksand, which then is mentioned in Advanced FF Blacksand adventure. Same sort of thing with the Paul Mason Kallamehr setting - from Riddling Reaver to Slaves of the Abyss to Magehunter. It fleshes out the world and creates familiarity. I liked the maps including places you have read about in previous books. The Lone Wolf books were the stronger for having a thought-out world and universe behind them. The books set in Khul felt like one-offs, like Choose Your Own Adventures ... rootless, making Khul a sort of dumping ground for all the books where the editor said 'God knows where this place is, just bung it in Khul.' It makes Khul my least favourite by far of the continents. Having said that, maybe Scorpion Swamp didn't need to be anywhere on Titan, nor Hachiman, nor the Inland Sea? As for the difficulty of completing the book honestly, I think that Caverns is best enjoyed by simply being read through rather than played. It clearly was not play-tested properly so it doesn't 'deserve' anyone to get vexed about it. By all means keep track of objects and items but just say you won the combats and the Luck rolls.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,437
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Apr 16, 2020 8:14:49 GMT
The books set in Khul felt like one-offs, like Choose Your Own Adventures ... rootless, making Khul a sort of dumping ground for all the books where the editor said 'God knows where this place is, just bung it in Khul.' I think Robin Waterfield, Paul Mason, Peter Darvill-Evans and Luke Sharp did good jobs in developing their corners of Khul but yes there were a few books just dumped in Khul willy-nilly. I know Andrew Chapman was annoyed that Marc Gascoigne placed his Inland Sea in Khul. I always find the Old World books a bit gimmicky - "Oh look, here's a country where everyone is a vampire/witch/demon/werewolf/pirate/Victorian (delete as appropriate)"
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Apr 16, 2020 8:53:35 GMT
The books set in Khul felt like one-offs, like Choose Your Own Adventures ... rootless, making Khul a sort of dumping ground for all the books where the editor said 'God knows where this place is, just bung it in Khul.' I think Robin Waterfield, Paul Mason, Peter Darvill-Evans and Luke Sharp did good jobs in developing their corners of Khul but yes there were a few books just dumped in Khul willy-nilly. I know Andrew Chapman was annoyed that Marc Gascoigne placed his Inland Sea in Khul. I always find the Old World books a bit gimmicky - "Oh look, here's a country where everyone is a vampire/witch/demon/werewolf/pirate/Victorian (delete as appropriate)" Yes, you are right about those authors and their development of certain regions. I always enjoyed the atmosphere of the Old World. Gothic Horror, Hammer Horror films meet FF. Perhaps similar to what would have been produced if Games Workshop had branched out into gamebooks set in their Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay setting. As for CotSW, i do remember liking the second half of the book when i first played it in about 1985/6. A race against time through (familiar) parts of the Allansian countryside whilst slowly dying of that curse.
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Post by dragonwarrior8 on Apr 16, 2020 17:07:51 GMT
As for CotSW, i do remember liking the second half of the book when i first played it in about 1985/6. A race against time through (familiar) parts of the Allansian countryside whilst slowly dying of that curse. Except for that friggin Birdman! Argghh, what was Ian thinking there?
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Post by The Count on Apr 26, 2020 23:02:11 GMT
As for CotSW, i do remember liking the second half of the book when i first played it in about 1985/6. A race against time through (familiar) parts of the Allansian countryside whilst slowly dying of that curse. Except for that friggin Birdman! Argghh, what was Ian thinking there? Probably: "this book is too easy - a random Skill 12 opponent will fix that!"
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Post by Law on May 15, 2020 17:19:48 GMT
I must admit. By examining the spines of my FF Wizard editions... I read this one the most.
Shows my early but fast-growing propensity of caring more about the world than fair and balanced gameplay. Must have cheated every time.
There were some great moments though, such as when you yank that goblin into the pit-fall or go David & Goliath on that poor Frost Giant home mover.
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vagsancho
Knight
Posts: 809
Favourite Gamebook Series: CRYPT OF THE SORCERER
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Post by vagsancho on May 15, 2020 17:39:43 GMT
I will never forget his eyes... Frozen.. Dead.. The rivers of sweat flowing through my body... The how tired i was... So tired... And he dead in my arms... That i will never forget.
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Post by Law on May 15, 2020 19:21:43 GMT
I will never forget his eyes... Frozen.. Dead.. The rivers of sweat flowing through my body... The how tired i was... So tired... And he dead in my arms... That i will never forget. RIP Redswift... He saved us in the end.
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Post by zoove on Dec 10, 2020 12:21:29 GMT
Cannot actually believe my last post on this thread was 18 months ago. I’d tried playing a couple of times, kept dying, put this book back on shelf, and moved onto Sorcery, which was one of the most enjoyable experiences I’ve ever had with a printed artefact.
So I came back to this one a couple months ago and after dying over a dozen times and spending probably twice as many hours trying to find the true path, I finally made it. What a slog that section after the caverns is. What I’m now gobsmacked about is that I completely overlooked the whole potion thing at the start and had to do this on my initial stats of 11/18/10 (which, for some reason are the numbers I start each game with, long since giving up trying to get through a Livingstone book on a weak roll).
I’ve always loved (had this book when I was 13 in 1984) that this book gives you travelling companions as the other game books always feel so solitary. The camaraderie in this one is a nice touch. But it gets ridiculously difficult in parts and there are times when you want to throw the book against the wall (did you drink the dark elf potion? No? Oops. Game over!”) but I can’t say I wasn’t palpably relieved to make it through the healer’s gauntlet and see that Pegasus come flying in to take me to the finish line. I have feel sorry for anyone who doesn’t know what a Phoenix is, only to die right before the final paragraph... oh, Ian. You are a bastard but we love you anyway.
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Post by petch on Dec 10, 2020 17:55:45 GMT
Glad you finally made it...hopefully the very satisfying ending to this one made it worth the wait One thing that has been nagging me about this book that perhaps someone can help me out with. How does Shireela die exactly? She challenges you to the rock-paper-scissors game saying if you win she will give you a chance to escape. So you win, and she....kills herself? Apologies for quoting a 2 year old post but yeah, this always really bugged me too. It always seemed to me that Livingstone missed a very obvious trick with this one, where Shireela could have cursed you with the death spell after beating her in her game, giving up her own life in the process. This would have given her a much more dramatic and less nonsensical death scene, as well as being a far less underwhelming setup for the final act of the adventure than reading a bit of paper nailed to a door.
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Post by schlendrian on Dec 10, 2020 19:39:32 GMT
I always thought it was an anger-induced suicide, like rumpelstiltskin. But I like your idea
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Post by johnbrawn1972 on Feb 3, 2021 23:41:02 GMT
I have a new solution for 12/24/12 where I think it is better to go for the war-hammer and spear. I know a +1 attack strength advantage gives you a 55/45 advantage so a +2 attack strength advantage must be significant. This means you have an 83% chance of fighting the Yeti at a +2 attack strength advantage. You can then fight the Crystal Warrior at a +1 attack strength advantage and use 3 luck to finish it off. This leaves you sufficient luck until you take the Potion of Fortune at the use square option. The 3 luck you use against the Bird-men means it is automatic for the first hit and 97% certain for the second hit. This leaves sufficient luck for the rest of the adventure.
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Post by Charles X. on Jul 19, 2021 23:04:36 GMT
Always hated this book because of the Death Spell. We're told to lose 1 stamina for every reference, there are lots of BSy short references which say things like "Do you go into the hut?" or "Do you possess?" , I worked out on a strict interpretation of the rules you don't win even if your Stamina is 24, on a more moderate but technically correct interpretation you have to have Stamina 24 exactly and not get hit once. Whatever way, requiring a Stamina of 20+ just feels unfair and cheap.
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Post by a moderator on Jul 19, 2021 23:27:12 GMT
We're told to lose 1 stamina for every reference, Where? Some references have an explicit instruction to lose 1 Stamina, but by no means all that follow the revelation of the Death Spell. Ian put a "deduct 1 STAMINA point each time you turn to a new reference' in Trial of Champions, but I can't find such an instruction in Caverns.
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Post by Charles X. on Jul 19, 2021 23:40:52 GMT
We're told to lose 1 stamina for every reference, Where? Some references have an explicit instruction to lose 1 Stamina, but by no means all that follow the revelation of the Death Spell. Ian put a "deduct 1 STAMINA point each time you turn to a new reference' in Trial of Champions, but I can't find such an instruction in Caverns. Unfortunately I do not have a copy of COTSW at present so I'm working from memory. My memory is it's worded something like "you will lose" or "you must lose" 1 stamina every new reference. Perhaps if you have a copy you could be helpful and record the written instructions .
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Post by a moderator on Jul 20, 2021 0:16:28 GMT
The section after Redswift tells you about the Death Spell says, "After burying your elfin friend in a leafy glade, you set off as quickly as you can towards the Moonstone Hills. But you are weak and cannot walk very fast. Lose 1 SKILL point and 1 STAMINA point. The ground becomes steeper as you approach the foothills, and you wonder which way you should go to find the Healer." Nothing about automatic STAMINA loss in subsequent sections. Whichever section you turn to next also says, "Lose 1 STAMINA point." But there's no mention of having to lose STAMINA in any of the sections to which you can turn from either of them. There are further STAMINA penalties in a couple of places - if you waste time with the herbalist, or bypass the Healer's cave, but there's nothing about having to deduct a point every time you turn to a new section.
My Puffin copy is a first edition, so unless somebody made an edit in a subsequent print run (a deranged attempt at making Ian's earlier books closer to Crypt-level difficulty?), you would appear to have a false memory.
FWIW, my Wizard edition of Caverns reads the same as the original, so even if such a change were made, it was subsequently dropped.
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Post by Charles X. on Jul 20, 2021 8:09:35 GMT
I might possibly be getting COTSW mixed up with Return To Firetop Mountain, where there is a point where you can get a curse which makes you lose 1 stamina every paragraph until you eat orcs fleas?!
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Post by daredevil123 on Jul 20, 2021 9:48:22 GMT
Return to Firetop Mountain does indeed feature such a curse. I actually quite like the idea and incorporated it into my own adventure, Wight Christmas.
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Post by a moderator on Jul 20, 2021 10:12:22 GMT
That's probably it. Caverns has its flaws, but a game-breaking mandatory STAMINA drain is not one of them.
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Post by Charles X. on Jul 26, 2021 17:40:30 GMT
That's probably it. Caverns has its flaws, but a game-breaking mandatory STAMINA drain is not one of them. Came across my Wizard edition copy of Caverns and can confirm there are no such instructions. Now, if only someone can have a false memory in which Crypt isn't so GD hard.
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Post by firebead on Aug 27, 2021 16:13:17 GMT
I played through the FF Classic app and there are changes made to make the gamebook more winnable (while other changes, I believe, were require due to the app system limitations): here is a (I hope) complete list of all the changes. While the reduction of some of the harder fights (and the permanent bonuses) are clearly intentional, I believe the largest part of the other changes is only due to the limitations of the game engine. Anyway, if you want to try to play a "fairer" FF 9, here it is: 13: You fight the 2 HILL TROLLs one at a time. I believe this change is due to the limits of the app engine, which apparently cannot run fights against multiple opponents. 43: The salted fish becomes 2 Provisions. 76: With the Shield, you gain a permanent +1 SKILL bonus, even above your Initial value. 108: I suspect this change has to do with the limitations of the app engine, which apparently cannot run fights with special rules. The special rule for the fight is removed; however, before the fight you have to take a SKILL test: if you fail, you lose 2 SKILL for this fight only. 143: I suspect this change is has to do with the limitations of the app engine, which apparently cannot run fights with special rules. The special rule for the fight is removed; however, before the fight you have to take a SKILL test: if you fail, you lose 2 SKILL for this fight only. 164: With the Troll sword, you gain a permanent +1 SKILL bonus, even above your Initial value. 171: This section has been “standardised”, I guess for accomodating the engine limitations. You can only take predetermined sums of gold: 600, 450, 300 or 150 gold pieces. If you do, you are required to remove some of your items from a ramdom list: if you take 600 gold you must remove 4 items, 3 items for 450, 2 items for 300 and only one item for 150 gold. 185: I suspect this change has to do with the limitations of the app engine, which apparently cannot run fights with special rules. The special rule for the fight is removed; however, before the fight you have to take a SKILL test: if you fail, you lose 2 SKILL for this fight only. 195: The YETI has SKILL 8 STAMINA 8 (instead of SKILL 11 STAMINA 12). 212: Both the SNOW WOLFs have SKILL 6 STAMINA 7 (instead of the unclear scores of the books). 219: The (wounded) YETI has SKILL 8 STAMINA 6 (instead of SKILL 10 STAMINA 9). 223: This entire section has been extensively rewritten, partly to remove the fight special rules (due to the limits of the app engine) and partly to give relevance to the gold ring too. If you have the gold ring, you simply have to fight a WHITE DRAGON with the reduced SKILL 9 STAMINA 12. If you don’t have the gold ring, you have to take a SKILL test: if you fail it, you lose 2 STAMINA. Then you are asked if you have the copper ring (in that case you are told to go to 313); otherwise you have to fight a WHITE DRAGON with SKILL 12 STAMINA 12 (instead of SKILL 12 STAMINA 14). 253: With the Shield, you gain a permanent +1 SKILL bonus, even above your Initial value. 262: You fight the DWARF ZOMBIE and the ELF ZOMBIE one at a time. I believe this change is due to the limits of the game engine, which apparently cannot run fights against multiple opponents. 285: You aren’t anymore required to give out 3 provisions; however, you have to lose 2 STAMINA. 287: Instead of a STAMINA check, there is a SKILL test. 310: The MAMMOTH has SKILL 8 STAMINA 9 (instead of SKILL 10 STAMINA 11). 296: You fight the 2 HILL TROLLs one at a time. I believe this change is due to the limits of the app engine, which apparently cannot run fights against multiple opponents. 313: This section has been semplified, I believe due to the limits of the app system. Instead of conducting a fight between your summoned warrior and the dragon, you roll a die and the result simply means you are going to fight a more or less wounded dragon: if you roll 1 the dragon has SKILL 9 STAMINA 9; if you roll 2 the dragon has SKILL 10 STAMINA 10; if you roll 3 or 4 the dragon has SKILL 11 STAMINA 11; if you roll 5 or 6 the dragon SKILL 12 STAMINA 12. 366: The salted fish becomes 2 Provisions. 372: With the Shield, you gain a permanent +1 SKILL bonus, even above your Initial value. 378: The YETI has SKILL 8 STAMINA 8 (instead of SKILL 11 STAMINA 12). 379: With the Elfin boots, you gain a permanent +1 LUCK bonus, even above your Initial value. NOTE: At 387 you are affected by frostbite which reduce your SKILL: this SKILL loss can only be cured by the fountain at 24 (not even by a Potion of SKILL. At 19 you are asked if you have a silver item: the app correctly considers both the arrow heads and the magic flute to be silver items.
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Post by The Count on Aug 30, 2021 23:03:33 GMT
The Birdman is still Skill 12 though, and that is probably the most problematic fight in the book
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Post by firebead on Aug 31, 2021 13:24:00 GMT
The Birdman is still Skill 12 though, and that is probably the most problematic fight in the book Unfortunately, he is. The only improvement in that sense is that you can gain a +1 SKILL point over your Initial value if you take the shield.
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Post by Captain on Nov 1, 2021 1:00:57 GMT
I'm playing this at the moment and was really enjoying it until I got to the point where you die unless you've previously drunk the random vial you found on the dark elf. The one you have NO IDEA what it is. As if there weren't enough fair ways to make you go back to the beginning, because that one feels like a deliberate trap - I can't imagine many people risking drinking the vial the first time round when it could easily have been poison.
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Post by a moderator on Nov 1, 2021 9:55:47 GMT
Typical post-Island Ian Livingstone.
Give it a few more books, and you hit his 'only winning move is not to play' phase.
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