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Post by shamutanti on Oct 31, 2021 23:21:25 GMT
Hi all - new to the forum - and made a directed graph map of Warlock that I thought I'd share, at i.imgur.com/dzd4CDv.jpg
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IoannesKantakouzenos
Traveller
Being slowly eaten alive by a Ghoul
Posts: 105
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy (Aventuras Fantásticas)
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Post by IoannesKantakouzenos on Jun 8, 2022 16:16:10 GMT
Ah, the beginning... "The beginning is a very delicate time", as a wise woman shall say in about ten thousand years from now. I still remember receiving this one as a Christmas gift in '92, grabbing a pen (not a pencil, mind you!) and start grabbing keys that would fail to open the final treasure chest and send me in a frenzy that would degenerate in a frustration that raged for years (which even lead me to put duct tape to "seal" Para 400 until I managed to finish the damned thing), until I finally found the optimal route. In (354) I added a "you lose 1 LUCK point" because, for me, killing the man was an action worthy of such penalty.
Portuguese translators knew little of what they were translating back then, and that is why the Ghoul found in (275) and/or (148) was called a "Vampire" in the PT version and, needless to say, I never understood why the rules were different between that "vampire" and the true vampire found in (254) - while they called a Wight a "Man-Beast" and a Wererat a "Man-Mouse". Also, for some reason, they switched some paragraph numbers - (205) and (207) are switched, per example, for no apparent reason, same with (348) and (350). Speaking about the Vampire... if "your weapon is almost ineffective against the considerable strength of the creature", as stated in (333), how does using it in a fight against the Vampire ends up having the same result as driving a stake through its heart? And in (17) you are told to "deduct 3 points from its STAMINA"... why, if you won't fight it after that, but either kill it or be killed outright?
Russ Nicholson's drawing are absolutely awesome and I loved each and every one of them - and I need to admit that the Ghoul's one in (275) made me shudder and, for some time, I hid it whenever I had to go through any of the paragraphs that were on the opposite page (the same thing happened with the Giant Spider's for some time, for different reasons). I love the Zombies and the crypt and wished that the Vampire and the torture chamber had drawings as well. And I have to confess that I wish that the second part of the book (the Maze of Zagor") was a little bit longer, because I enjoyed the idea of going back and forth at leisure. There could also have two ways of reaching the exit i.e. the Dragon room, one that passed through the Minotaur room and one that would not, per instance. I can also see why some people call it a decent at best book: its premise is a bit simple, some random increases and decreases of your scores, etc., but I love it as it is and wouldn't change a thing about it. Other than the afore-mentioned increase of the maze part, that is.
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Post by johnbrawn1972 on Jun 24, 2022 15:46:11 GMT
I have been hard at work on a new solution and the only thing I can add is somehow you need to win within 28 stamina points against the Cyclops with 7/14/7. Using 2 rounds of luck just about makes this possible. Use 1 luck to reduce damage when you go from 28 to 2 stamina.
The reason for this is the Zombies are simply too brutal as the fights in succession mean you need to use your last Potion of Strength here rather than against the Cyclops.
I am not sure of the odds with the help of the shield but the attrition is so severe even a 16% chance of reduced damage is significant help. My GCSE mathematics, to return to an old theme, means you receive an extra 2 stamina. This seems serendipitous as the very helpful stamina damage matrix says you will suffer 28 stamina damage with a 3 skill deficit. If you can just survive then you can take advantage and then fight the zombies with the last Potion of Strength.
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Post by slloyd14 on Jul 9, 2022 9:33:05 GMT
I have been hard at work on a new solution and the only thing I can add is somehow you need to win within 28 stamina points against the Cyclops with 7/14/7. Using 2 rounds of luck just about makes this possible. Use 1 luck to reduce damage when you go from 28 to 2 stamina. The reason for this is the Zombies are simply too brutal as the fights in succession mean you need to use your last Potion of Strength here rather than against the Cyclops. I am not sure of the odds with the help of the shield but the attrition is so severe even a 16% chance of reduced damage is significant help. My GCSE mathematics, to return to an old theme, means you receive an extra 2 stamina. This seems serendipitous as the very helpful stamina damage matrix says you will suffer 28 stamina damage with a 3 skill deficit. If you can just survive then you can take advantage and then fight the zombies with the last Potion of Strength. Nice calculation. I never thought the zombies would be a huge problem but they have loads of stamina between them. I think you can get the iron helm of +1 attack strength before the cyclops, so that will definitely help. Just being able to eat provisions when you aren't in combat would help a lot - can you even eat 10 provisions if you just follow the text?
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Post by slloyd14 on Jul 9, 2022 9:35:29 GMT
Yes, a lot of player characters do questionable things without being the villain. The player in City of Thieves can do a lot of burglary, but ultimately they are fighting on the side of good, not like in Warlock of Firetop Mountain. Anyway, back on the topic of the gamebook mechanics, I have a couple of small nitpicks, even though, despite being the first, it is one of the better designed and balanced ones. The player should actually have to fight the Warlock at the end to receive some punishment. The jewel should only have the property of aging him, and it should have that effect on his portrait first as foreshadowing. That would complete the whole theme of the confusion as to whether the Warlock is young or old, and the fact that he chooses to appear as an old man to begin with. Being aged should just weaken him. Secondly, there should be a key to the armory in the snake box, so the player can enter it easily. For skill 7 characters, there should be a magic gauntlet that gives a bonus of +1 attack strength to characters with skill below 8. Then the magic sword in the zombie room should grant an attack strength bonus instead of a skill bonus. So then a skill 7 player character could have an effective combat skill of 10. I think a good FF house rule in general is to turn all skill bonuses into attack strength bonuses.
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CharlesX
Baron
Posts: 2,171
Member is Online
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Post by CharlesX on Jul 9, 2022 10:31:22 GMT
Yes, a lot of player characters do questionable things without being the villain. The player in City of Thieves can do a lot of burglary, but ultimately they are fighting on the side of good, not like in Warlock of Firetop Mountain. Anyway, back on the topic of the gamebook mechanics, I have a couple of small nitpicks, even though, despite being the first, it is one of the better designed and balanced ones. The player should actually have to fight the Warlock at the end to receive some punishment. The jewel should only have the property of aging him, and it should have that effect on his portrait first as foreshadowing. That would complete the whole theme of the confusion as to whether the Warlock is young or old, and the fact that he chooses to appear as an old man to begin with. Being aged should just weaken him. Secondly, there should be a key to the armory in the snake box, so the player can enter it easily. For skill 7 characters, there should be a magic gauntlet that gives a bonus of +1 attack strength to characters with skill below 8. Then the magic sword in the zombie room should grant an attack strength bonus instead of a skill bonus. So then a skill 7 player character could have an effective combat skill of 10. I think a good FF house rule in general is to turn all skill bonuses into attack strength bonuses. Possibly, but authors like Ian Livingstone hand out Skill bonuses like sweeties, for example Eye Of The Dragon has 5+ Skill bonuses. It might make Crypt Of The Sorceror playable though!
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Post by a moderator on Jul 9, 2022 12:05:59 GMT
I think you can get the iron helm of +1 attack strength before the cyclops, so that will definitely help. The iron helm and the Iron Cyclops are on mutually exclusive paths. There are no Attack Strength bonuses on the path leading to the Iron Cyclops.
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Post by slloyd14 on Jul 9, 2022 14:00:09 GMT
I think you can get the iron helm of +1 attack strength before the cyclops, so that will definitely help. The iron helm and the Iron Cyclops are on mutually exclusive paths. There are no Attack Strength bonuses on the path leading to the Iron Cyclops. Ah, boo. Shows what I remember.
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Post by Peter on Aug 27, 2022 7:26:29 GMT
Happy 40th birthday, book.
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Post by paperexplorer on Sept 26, 2022 5:17:42 GMT
Not that I'd given it any thought before, but Ian mentioned in an interview recently that the co-writing was actually them cutting the book on half and each writing their own half. Everything up to the river is Ian, everything after that is Steve
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revenant
Squire
Posts: 21
Favourite Gamebook Series: Zork (just kidding)
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Post by revenant on Sept 26, 2022 7:07:38 GMT
A few days ago, I received in the post packages from two different senders: one, containing The Warlock of Firestop Mountain, the second, Shadow of the Giants. The original and the latest, 40 years on. Very fitting, thought I.
(It was pure coincidence actually, I've bought and sold multiples of almost all the books over the years, these two just happened to arrive on the same day).
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lt
Squire
Posts: 18
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Post by lt on Oct 27, 2022 3:14:45 GMT
I just completed tWoFM today, no five finger bookmark, good old honest dice rolls, it was great! I really liked the mechanics of wandering monsters in the maze portion, it kept me on my toes. Both the dragon and Zagor could be defeated without a fight. Due to unlucky dice rolls, Wight and Minotaur whittled my stamina down a bit. I had very fond memories of FF gamebooks, the first book I bought was Star Strider(!), but for an 8 year old (back in 1988) who judges books by their covers, between the bald guy who rides tigers and the Grinch riding a hoverboard, I chose the latter. Star Strider was difficult, I flipped through it numerous times, albeit never completed it. I got to borrow my friends' FF books and played quite a few, it ended with a purchase of Titan (cool cover) and then I immigrated to Canada and bought the 10th anniversary yearbook at a discount bookstore at an outlet in 1995. Got back into FF because of 40th anniversary, played Secrets of Salamonis, then the grand daddy tWoFM, and I now know why the FF series was and will continue to be such a hit. Side note: I mapped the whole journey with numbers, I wonder if that is cheating 😉 photos.app.goo.gl/3RRuMGsASzDBfd2K8
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Post by Peter on Oct 27, 2022 8:15:09 GMT
Side note: I mapped the whole journey with numbers, I wonder if that is cheating 😉 Make notes and draw a map as you explore - this will prove invaluable in future adventures. So no, not cheating.
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revenant
Squire
Posts: 21
Favourite Gamebook Series: Zork (just kidding)
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Post by revenant on Oct 31, 2022 19:11:48 GMT
I just completed tWoFM today, no five finger bookmark, good old honest dice rolls, it was great! I really liked the mechanics of wandering monsters in the maze portion, it kept me on my toes. Both the dragon and Zagor could be defeated without a fight. Due to unlucky dice rolls, Wight and Minotaur whittled my stamina down a bit. I had very fond memories of FF gamebooks, the first book I bought was Star Strider(!), but for an 8 year old (back in 1988) who judges books by their covers, between the bald guy who rides tigers and the Grinch riding a hoverboard, I chose the latter. Star Strider was difficult, I flipped through it numerous times, albeit never completed it. I got to borrow my friends' FF books and played quite a few, it ended with a purchase of Titan (cool cover) and then I immigrated to Canada and bought the 10th anniversary yearbook at a discount bookstore at an outlet in 1995. Got back into FF because of 40th anniversary, played Secrets of Salamonis, then the grand daddy tWoFM, and I now know why the FF series was and will continue to be such a hit. Side note: I mapped the whole journey with numbers, I wonder if that is cheating 😉 photos.app.goo.gl/3RRuMGsASzDBfd2K8You have never owned an older edition of the book? You really owe it to yourself to see the original Russ Nicholson illustrations.
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lt
Squire
Posts: 18
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Post by lt on Oct 31, 2022 19:33:50 GMT
[You have never owned an older edition of the book? You really owe it to yourself to see the original Russ Nicholson illustrations. I'll have to hunt one down 😭 I hate to encourage scalpers, that's why all the ones I purchased were the newest Scholastic ones. On the side note, when you fight more than one opponents, not sure it occurred in this one, sometimes you have to fight all at the same time but only get to attack the designated one. Do you all roll again for yourself for each of the others that were attacking you or just use your first roll to test against whether you dodged the others? Thanks
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 31, 2022 23:05:13 GMT
[You have never owned an older edition of the book? You really owe it to yourself to see the original Russ Nicholson illustrations. I'll have to hunt one down 😭 I hate to encourage scalpers, that's why all the ones I purchased were the newest Scholastic ones. On the side note, when you fight more than one opponents, not sure it occurred in this one, sometimes you have to fight all at the same time but only get to attack the designated one. Do you all roll again for yourself for each of the others that were attacking you or just use your first roll to test against whether you dodged the others? Thanks There were different instructions in different books. This thread might be of interest.
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Post by zoove on Aug 15, 2023 11:31:17 GMT
I was loving this book until I got to the maze. I spent two nights trying to get out and eventually had to give up and check the solution. Am I the only one who found it difficult to create an accurate map? Without knowing how long passages go for, it's really difficult to get right. I tried 4 times to get it, but kept drawing myself into knots and running out of room, or hitting passageways I shouldn't with other passageways. I hate giving in to cheating, but I just couldn't see myself getting out any time soon and I'm too old and time poor to spend weeks roaming around aimlessly. I do that enough in my real life lol.
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Post by petch on Aug 15, 2023 12:27:38 GMT
I was loving this book until I got to the maze. I spent two nights trying to get out and eventually had to give up and check the solution. Am I the only one who found it difficult to create an accurate map? Without knowing how long passages go for, it's really difficult to get right. I tried 4 times to get it, but kept drawing myself into knots and running out of room, or hitting passageways I shouldn't with other passageways. I hate giving in to cheating, but I just couldn't see myself getting out any time soon and I'm too old and time poor to spend weeks roaming around aimlessly. I do that enough in my real life lol. I don't think I ever tried mapping it. If memory serves I did it by making a note of all of the reference numbers I'd already visited so when one I hadn't seen before appeared as an option that would be the one I'd choose. Which probably isn't the way Jackson intended for anyone to do it at all but, y'know, it worked for me.
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Post by scouserob on Aug 15, 2023 14:41:40 GMT
Over the years I've mapped the Maze of Zagor out in pencil, in Excel, with numbers, without numbers, but ... If I don't have a map to hand I still often manage to get lost for a while after going all the way South from the Minotaur. Here it is. A damn good maze! The Maze of Zagor:
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Post by a moderator on Aug 15, 2023 16:08:01 GMT
I've had little trouble finding my way through the maze ever since I created a map based on TWoFM for the game The Battle for Wesnoth.
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Post by tyrion on Aug 15, 2023 16:38:52 GMT
I quite liked the challenge of mapping the maze. I did have to ask an adult what a hairpin bend was though.
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Post by zoove on Aug 16, 2023 1:47:02 GMT
Over the years I've mapped the Maze of Zagor out in pencil, in Excel, with numbers, without numbers, but ... If I don't have a map to hand I still often manage to get lost for a while after going all the way South from the Minotaur. Here it is. A damn good maze! The Maze of Zagor:
Good lord! I sometimes wonder if Ian and Steve made these a little too tough for kids, which is fine, I guess...because I'm being stumped as an adult, so the challenge makes it worth playing. I don't often give up, but this one had me getting super frustrated. Wife: "Do you want dinner?". Me: "I can't get out of this maze! LATER!" (3 hours pass) "Are you coming to bed?". "LATER!!" Turn to 308...I WAS JUST HERE! etc etc ad nauseum
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Post by Wizard Slayer on Aug 16, 2023 7:57:59 GMT
I wouldn't say it's a difficult maze to map out. Not sure that the flowchart version is that easy to make sense of, but I found this one online that shows it nicest and looks similar to my own map from last time I played. I've labelled the rooms, and marked where you enter the maze with a red > after the portcullis.
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Post by zoove on Aug 16, 2023 9:15:35 GMT
Awesome, thanks! That's a really nice map. I'm gonna steal that and add page references so I have it to hand for next time I get lost. On to Forest of Doom now...
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Post by schlendrian on Aug 16, 2023 9:24:43 GMT
I've had little trouble finding my way through the maze ever since I created a map based on TWoFM for the game The Battle for Wesnoth. Does this still exist somewhere?
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Post by a moderator on Aug 17, 2023 0:41:48 GMT
There's still a copy on my computer. Don't know if it's compatible with the current version of the game - I also made maps based on NW Allansia and the Inland Sea, both of which stopped working after one upgrade, and I'm still using v1.14.14, which is around 3 years old. I've attached screen grabs of Zagor's lair and the Dragon's cave, and part of the maze, including the Maze-Master skulking in his room. Attachments:
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