|
|
Post by thealmightymudworm on Jan 2, 2014 19:38:21 GMT
From TUFFF... One of my favourites, despite the general difficulty of the book right from the start. The style of writing, the open exploration of Castle Argent (Carl Sargent, geddit?) and the utter obviousness of it being the formers work as opposed to a genuine Livingstone book. (I took up the patio flagstones only the other week and he's definitely still there. Some weirdo has dug out a tunnel and set up a trinket shop next to him too, god knows what that's all about. Bought 6 candles, a length of rope and a bulb of garlic while I was down there, though). It also boasts some of the greatest internal art of any FF book in my opinion, courtesy of Maestro McKenna.
So I pose the question: What's YOU'RE take on this adventure? Too hard? Too long? What do you think of the character choices, and how do you think they will be fitted into the new Wizard formula for pre-generated characters? And should we see more of Amirillia and how it might fit into the FF canon as a whole? ~ Vae Victis! ~ |
|
|
|
Post by thealmightymudworm on Jan 2, 2014 19:39:21 GMT
From TUFFF (December 2009)... Just that bit too detailed and methodical for my tastes. I have one or two unfinished attempts at it saved on my gamebook manager - I just lost the will to play on. It'll be interesting to see how I fare when I get this far in the 'books in order' thread. |
|
|
|
Post by thealmightymudworm on Jan 2, 2014 19:41:29 GMT
From TUFFF... One of my least favourite FFs, this book owes a debt to Keith Martin's FFs for its structure, where every room should be explored before moving on to the next level. I find this approach takes the fun out of it all, as there's very little that can be cleverly hidden away - a thorough reader with good dice rolls can feel like they've faced every encounter on their first attempt. Add to that a truly horrible prose style (also something I tend to associate Martin with, rather than Livingstone) and the result is a real stinker. This should have been an RPG adventure. If only Legend Of Zagor had been chosen as the follow-up to Fighting Fantasy, and The Riddling Reaver re-worked as a gamebook in its place... |
|
|
|
Post by thealmightymudworm on Jan 2, 2014 19:42:07 GMT
From TUFFF... Isn't it generally believed that Carl Sargent/Castle Argent wrote LoZ, and hasn't Carl Sargent been equated with Keith Martin? |
|
|
|
Post by thealmightymudworm on Jan 2, 2014 19:42:43 GMT
From TUFFF... The official line is that oh yes, Ian definitely wrote this one, hence the popular belief that he killed Keith/Carl and ate his brains before penning it. |
|
|
|
Post by thealmightymudworm on Jan 2, 2014 19:43:42 GMT
From TUFFF... The official line is that oh yes, Ian definitely wrote this one, hence the popular belief that he killed Keith/Carl and ate his brains before penning it. Ian the Champaque  Two Words |
|
|
|
Post by thealmightymudworm on Jan 2, 2014 19:44:07 GMT
From TUFFF... Maybe that's where Steve got the idea for it... |
|
|
|
Post by thealmightymudworm on Jan 2, 2014 19:45:15 GMT
From TUFFF... I like the realism of this book and the excellent illustrations but there's just not much variety to it, it takes about 4 hours to get through the thing and it's way too complex for its own good. Also features FF's worst magic system. |
|
|
|
Post by thealmightymudworm on Jan 2, 2014 19:45:50 GMT
From TUFFF... The length doesn't bother me so much... I play for about a half hour or so a night anyway so I don't mind it being fleshed out. I do more-or-less ignore the magic though... It would have been much better if the characters had all been fighters/specialists rather than throwing the basic spells around. ~ Vae Victis! ~ |
|
|
|
Post by thealmightymudworm on Jan 2, 2014 19:51:46 GMT
From TUFFF... Meant to add this before, but my laptop was buggering around: "Anyway, I was thinking that Castle Argent isn't a play on Carl Sargent, because
Castle Argent simply means 'silver castle'. It also turns up in Casket of Souls,
which was printed in 1987 and long before Legend of Zagor. (I agree with the idea originally posted by Paul Mason that Carl and Keith are
the same. There are too many language similarities between the Zagor Chronicles
and Keith's gamebooks for it to be otherwise!) I also thought it was long before Carl Sargent/Keith Martin's debut with Stealer
of Souls, but I just checked, and SOS came out in 1988, just one year later than
Casket of Souls. Given Carl ghost-wrote both Legend of Zagor and the Zagor Chronicles, could it
be then that he also ghost-wrote Casket of Souls, which we know, according to
Warlock magazine, had a long and difficult birth (though this was blamed on Iain
McCaig's paintings). If this is the case, it gives us our Carl Sargent/Castle Argent connection,
otherwise, it's just coincidence. [It wouldn't be the first time either. Having recently slogged through both
Demonstealer and Shadowmaster, I can say both bear the pawprints of Marc
Gascoigne, and I don't think Ian Livingstone contributed a hell of a lot to the
latter, despite it bearing his name]" Impudent Peasant! |
|
|
|
Post by thealmightymudworm on Jan 2, 2014 19:53:20 GMT
From TUFFF... Carl Sargent is listed as one of the writers of Casket of Souls as shown: search.barnesandnoble.com/used/product.asp?ean=2698101735600It seems fairly possible that the Carl Sargent/Castle Argent connection occured at this point, and not totally implausable that Ian's credits for Casket of Souls are as justly earned as his credits for Legend of Zagor (i.e. not at all). |
|
|
|
Post by thealmightymudworm on Jan 2, 2014 19:56:19 GMT
From TUFFF... Hey Al, nice work tracking that down! I've got the hardcover of COS and I'm pretty sure there's no Carl Sargent mentioned anywhere in it (though I'll check again). However, the link you've supplied mentions the softcover. If someone has the softcover of COS and can confirm or deny that Carl's name turns up there, that would be cool. So, Amarillia thus becomes the work of one mister Sargent! Impudent Peasant! |
|
|
|
Post by thealmightymudworm on Jan 2, 2014 20:06:17 GMT
From TUFFF... Jamais deux sans trois… This book isn’t a new experience, but close enough, as I’ll explain soon, since I already own the French edition. In fact, it’s the last book in my French collection, so you’ll never read me mentioning this again (yeah!) and if I recall correctly, I bought it at the same time as Return to Firetop Mountain. If not, I must have bought them real close to each other cause I can’t remember otherwise. First, let’s get the obvious out of the way. This is not a Livingstone book. It’s a Keith Martin book (and if you want to add to the confusion, a look at the internal credits on my Wizard edition (the non-special one) tells me that this book was in fact written by Steve Jackson! No telling if it’s Steve UK or US…right!) Other than all the links made by the fans over the years, like Castle Argent/Carl Sargent, all the incriminating proofs; the most telling clues lies in the writing and the concept of the book itself. Back when I was a bit younger, having just read my French edition, the fact that this was not a Livingstone book went a few miles over my head, but who could blame me? I had been out of the game for a while by then, it was a French translation, and most importantly, I had never read any Keith Martin prior to that one. That’s the key element. If you’ve read all your FF books, but especially the ones by those two authors, there’s no way you can mistake one for the other. Having just read Return to Firetop Mountain and Island of the Living Dead/Night Dragon back to back, there was not a shadow of a doubt. Though even without those, I still would have spotted the huge differences. Imagine, back when The Warlock of Firetop Mountain was written, the editor of back then managed to easily spot the differences in writing between Livingstone and Jackson. Now we got a whole book credited to Livingstone but written by Martin. Something much easier to spot by thousands of fans everywhere. In a Livingstone book, you’ve got a certain type of linearity. You’ve got limited freedom and lots of absurd choices but at least the story moves forward at an adequate pace, never resting for too long. You’ve got your typical shopping list, but the items usually falls under the vital ¨key¨ form: when they come into play it’s usually a make or break situation. You will not be able to proceed if you haven’t obtain the right item for the right moment. In a Martin book, you’re left with more freedom. Instead of pushing the story forward one awkward choice at a time, you are given small hubs in which you can manoeuver back and forth to a certain degree, up to a certain point, until you have to move to the next hub. It sometimes creates dull moments and/or confusion, but rarely gives you a bad aftertaste as you feel you are mostly in control of what you do. Martin also gives you a shopping list - a huge one - but his items are rarely of the vital ¨key¨ form. Most of them are tools, stats modifier that will help you even the odds against the bad guys in one way or another. Plenty of options. Martin is also very fond of special rules all around, whether they apply to items, to fight, or to just plain walking around. He’s also fond of all things related to plagues and diseases and stuff that can be lug around in empty bottles… all stuff that Livingstone never (well, nearly) uses in his books. So, that’s it in a nutshell: read Legend of Zagor and I think it will be obvious into which category described above it falls into. The best case scenario that I can come with in favour of Livingstone is that, after seeing the success of RtFM, he came up with a setting, a synopsis perhaps, for another sequel but left it to Martin to write. Why the no credits? Who knows… So, with that controversy aside, let’s focus on the book, more precisely, let’s start with the art. New cover by McKenna is good, preferable to the montage on the original: that one just felt diluted. I would have prefer less of a close-up; just like Temple of Terror’s new cover, I think atmosphere could be gained from pulling back and seeing the creature a bit more in its entirety, or better yet, in action in an appropriate context, but it’s still a fine piece of work. But the real meat of this book is found inside the pages. So far, this is Maestro McKenna at his finest. The illustrations are so good, I would dare say if this book had been amongst the early book, where the popularity of the series was probably at its highest, it would rank amongst such legendary as Russ Nicholson’s Warlock of Firetop Mountain and Iain McCaig’s Deathtrap Dungeon. And maybe McKenna was a bit lucky in that regard, but the story created by whoever ends up serving a baddest of the bad roster of foe pitted against the hero, perfect material to be illustrated with such brillo. It’s like a greatest hits of villains, really, but that’s for the story part of the review. My only complaint here is toward the treatment that Wizard gave those illos - way too dark, with a great loss of details. Take the Dark Knight as an example. I know he’s supposed to be dark, but come on! That leads me straight into my French edition. This is the way I knew the illos were too dark in the Wizard edition; those in my French edition are pitch perfect. You can see all the details in their majestic glory. Shame that there’s only 11 illos in it to be admired. That’s right, that means that there are 19 missing!! What does it means for French readers? It means no Corpse Lizard, no Orcs whatsoever, no dragons of any kind (Wyvern included) no Livingstone cameo, no zombies, no Hellhorns, no Plant Golem, no mummy, hell, no Zagor himself! No wonder this book didn’t leave a lasting impression on me last time I played: there’s barely anything left to remember, once you’ve been confused enough by the rooms layout… At least, one thing the french version got straight, other than the brightness level of the illos, are the adventure sheets. No mistake there. That means the magic points you start with are not stuck at 3, but correct for each players. For the story, I’m a bit torn. I mostly enjoyed it. I certainly enjoyed the badass foes. The story is a bit thin, but does the trick, a little bit like how you enjoy watching a James Bond movie for the 20th time even though you know everything that’s going to happen. Sometimes you just want more of a good thing. It’s all a bit on the tedious side, though, the layout of Castle Argent has both a sense of déjà vu and sufficiently enough maze-like passages to confuse you and perhaps bore you. I remember that when I reached the Passage of the Hawks kind of central hub I definitely felt a bit overwhelm by the sheer number of choices to be had. Instructions as to orientation all became a bit of the same blur and I kept double checking to make sure I got it right without losing my way. Of course, in a way it’s all part of the challenge, but the story could have used a few nudges in the right direction from time to time, maybe a bit of tidying up.
As far as Keith Martin’s work goes, I wouldn’t say this one was my favourite, but still not amongst his worst and overall I came away impressed, and certainly more pleased with it than when I first read it all those years ago. It is certainly a better piece of work than RtFM, not so much in originality as in the fulfilling of scale and ambitions, as in keeping a promise of quality by delivering bad ass enemies to fight and a more fitting end to Zagor, even though in the end, having gone from a lonesome hermit to a bling-bling conqueror to a rather generic demon-zombie, Zagor himself was left barely recognisable as it is. Speak in extremes, it will save you time. |
|
|
|
Post by thealmightymudworm on Jan 2, 2014 20:08:06 GMT
From TUFFF... Are you all absolutely sure Keith Martin ghostwrote LoZ ? To me it reads more like a Jon Green book. |
|
|
|
Post by thealmightymudworm on Jan 2, 2014 20:10:05 GMT
From TUFFF... Are you all absolutely sure Keith Martin ghostwrote LoZ? To me it reads more like a Jon Green book I definitely seems more Keith Martin-like to me: - The hub-and-spokes design has been used to an extent in all his books and is especially prevalent in his later ones (written about the time LoZ was). Jonathan Green seldom uses such a design (Bloodbones and Howl of the Werewolf use it to an extent and Night of the Necromancer uses it heavily.) - The sheer amount of items and special rules you have to keep track of is very typical of Martin's books, particularly Night Dragon. Jon's books are generally less complex. - The Spot Skill rule only appears in one other book: Revenge of the Vampire by Keith Martin. - Collecting empty bottles to put stuff you might find later in is also a device used in Island of the Undead and Night Dragon - The A=1, B=2 etc. checks are very common in Martin's books (though Jon has used them a bit as well). - Casting a spell in battle requires winning an attack round - a device that appeared in Martin's books as early as Stealer of Souls. - Keith Martin is rumoured to be a pseudonym for Carl Sargent, who co-wrote the Zagor Chronicles upon which LoZ is based. - The writing is high on detail, but slightly lacking in atmosphere which is much more similar to Martin's style than Jon Green's (or Ian Livingstone's for that matter) - The book starts with you being attacked by a flying creature while heading to your destination by ship, near identical to Stealer of Souls. - There are places you can return to later, common in Keith Martin's later books - You are often given a limited number of actions you can take before a fight - again very common in Martin's books. |
|
|
|
Post by thealmightymudworm on Jan 2, 2014 20:11:23 GMT
From TUFFF... Thanks Kieran for your detailed answer, it's especially the "hub-and-spokes design" that led me into thinking Green might have written it, but given these facts altogether I guess I was wrong. |
|
|
|
Post by thealmightymudworm on Jan 2, 2014 20:12:45 GMT
From TUFFF... I am reading this one right now, have been dipping into it the last 3 nights making steady progress. Thinking back to when I first read it I couldn't remember a thing about it, save the fact it was set on a separate world and you had 4 characters to choose from. I am currently playing as Anvar. My FF reviews: z3.invisionfree.com/Orc__Goblin_Warpath/index.php?showtopic=29374 |
|
|
|
Post by thealmightymudworm on Jan 2, 2014 20:14:02 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by thealmightymudworm on Jan 2, 2014 20:15:56 GMT
From TUFFF... Well on my next try I cheated somewhat by using a 'saved game', allowing me to replay just a few rooms rather than the whole thing. As it happened though I only got about 3 steps further before dying to a Hellhorn Champion. I think the positive thing about this book is the specialised player-characters (even though the wizard one is pretty poor). However I had some issues with the structure, the game basically depends on doing about 100 things exactly the right way. Then there is the castle layout, there is nothing wrong with hubs but in the end this feature was used too much. As a result there is a lack of momentum as you drift back and forth opening doors. This was not helped by a deluge of special rules for each and every item. As it was I felt the gameplay gradually sank under its own weight. I also felt the second half was a bit overblown. The writer simply decided to stuff the castle with all the most powerful villains in FF history. In Crown of Kings, you progressed through cunning, guile and stolen passwords. In Legend of Zagor the character is more like Rambo, by the end you have killed just about everything in the castle. My FF reviews: z3.invisionfree.com/Orc__Goblin_Warpath/index.php?showtopic=29374 |
|
|
|
Post by thealmightymudworm on Jan 2, 2014 20:17:38 GMT
From TUFFF... I read in this forum that some people think that Legend of Zagor is not a FF book of Ian Livingstone. Although I had not read this book, I do not believe it, because Livingstone is a person I admire a bit due to some true Masterpieces he made, and I strongly believe that a person of Good would never have accepted the honours from a feat that has not been done by him. Razaak's apprentice |
|
|
|
Post by deadshadowrunner on Jan 3, 2014 11:39:05 GMT
Livingstone is a "man of Good"?
Also I checked my copy of the Wizard non-special edition of LoZ.Hynreck was right!The copyright page did state it was by Steve Jackson!Weird...
|
|
|
|
Post by champskees on Jan 20, 2014 2:19:02 GMT
Got a quick question about the thief hireling who comes with you (if you can afford it). The book states that he will not fight any dragon (ok), will not enter the throne room and will not cross any wooden stairway.
After the throne room, there is a section that asks you if you have a hireling thief with you (when you are going for the hand catapult). When does the theif hireling leave you?
Is it:
When you go through the throne room?
When you cross the wooden stairway?
I just made the realisation that my current solution relies on the thief hireling to be around for a little bit longer...and that it IS entirely possible for the thief to be with you right up until the wooden stairway if you are Sallazar (because he can teleport past the throne room).
|
|
|
|
Post by nathanh on Jan 22, 2014 9:17:41 GMT
Got a quick question about the thief hireling who comes with you (if you can afford it). The book states that he will not fight any dragon (ok), will not enter the throne room and will not cross any wooden stairway. After the throne room, there is a section that asks you if you have a hireling thief with you (when you are going for the hand catapult). When does the theif hireling leave you? Is it: When you go through the throne room? When you cross the wooden stairway? I just made the realisation that my current solution relies on the thief hireling to be around for a little bit longer...and that it IS entirely possible for the thief to be with you right up until the wooden stairway if you are Sallazar (because he can teleport past the throne room). I play that it's when you enter the throne room. It says he won't enter the throne room, and there isn't a clause that says "until it's empty". Since as you note Jallarial can teleport past the throne room, there's no contradiction in having hireling-dependent references past the throne room. We can think of it as a small perk for wasting your magic points just to avoid all the goodies in the throne room. |
|
|
|
Post by deadshadowrunner on Jan 22, 2014 10:44:00 GMT
Jallarial?She was replaced by Sallazar in Legend of Zagor.
|
|
|
|
Post by nathanh on Jan 22, 2014 15:04:37 GMT
If we all pretend it didn't happen then maybe the unnecessary sexism will be magically reverted and she'll take her rightful place in the gamebook.
Or perhaps, given how weak the wizard is in the gamebook, it's fitting that the one decent character in the whole of the Zagor Chronicles dodged the role.
|
|
sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,677 
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
|
Post by sylas on Jan 22, 2014 23:52:31 GMT
Braxus is named after a King. Sallazar is named after a Grand Wizard. Anvar is named after the Titan-based barbarian. Stubble is named after facial hair.
Jallarial isn't named after anything as far as i'm aware. But her inclusion would have broken the book's trend. can't have creativity in a gamebook, oh no.
|
|
|
|
Post by a moderator on May 24, 2014 11:51:25 GMT
My TUFFF playthrough:
|
|
vagsancho
Knight
Posts: 809
Favourite Gamebook Series: CRYPT OF THE SORCERER
|
Post by vagsancho on May 21, 2019 14:24:26 GMT
Is this the best book of Keith Martin?
Keith Martin has a style of making gamebooks (always returning to the same place) that I particularly dislike.
|
|
|
|
Post by johnbrawn1972 on May 21, 2019 14:32:22 GMT
Is this the best book of Keith Martin? Keith Martin has a style of making gamebooks (always returning to the same place) that I particularly dislike. Do not know the answer? Is Vault of the Vampire one of his and that is wonderful?
Returning to a central hub, like in Night Of The Necromancer, can work very well depending on how it is handled.
|
|
kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,451
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
|
Post by kieran on May 21, 2019 16:44:59 GMT
Is this the best book of Keith Martin? Keith Martin has a style of making gamebooks (always returning to the same place) that I particularly dislike. If you don't like that style then Legend of Zagor definitely wouldn't be the best book for you. I wouldn't be a huge fan of the "hub and spokes" style either, but sometimes Keith does it better than others. Master of Chaos, Tower of Destruction and Revenge of the Vampire break it up with more conventional segments. Stealer of Souls doesn't make it obvious which is the path to move on to the next hub. Night Dragon is essentially a big hub with loads of mini hubs off it which adds a bit of variety. Vault of the Vampire and Island of the Undead keep the setting atmospheric and inventive to make it feel like less of a grind and have a lot of choices on how to deal with characters you may meet. But Legend of Zagor is mostly going to various ruined castle rooms and fighting over-powerful enemies with cumbersome extra rules and there are few choices beyond guessing what order to do things in. I think someone once said it feels like you have to read 399 of the 400 sections to beat the thing and they're not far off. As you can gather from the above, I find too many extra rules and things to keep track of tedious and Keith martin's later books are very bad for this. If I had to rank his books: 1. Vault of the Vampire 2. Stealer of Souls 3. Master of Chaos 4. Island of the Undead 5. Revenge of the Vampire 6. Tower of Destruction 7. Night Dragon 8. Legend of Zagor Of course everyone is different. Some really enjoy the book for its tactical play. |
|
