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Post by daredevil123 on May 21, 2019 17:58:35 GMT
I found Legend of Zagor one of the least enjoyable FF books I've played. It's far too long and there are loads of annoying rules to keep track of. The choice of characters is quite a nice touch though.
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Post by a moderator on May 21, 2019 19:12:25 GMT
It's my least favourite of KM's books, too. Too plodding for my liking.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,451
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on May 22, 2019 2:22:17 GMT
The choice of characters is quite a nice touch though. Even that's pretty flawed. The advantages rarely come into play and the magic system is so weak that all 4 characters play largely the same.
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Post by daredevil123 on May 22, 2019 17:31:13 GMT
The choice of characters is quite a nice touch though. Even that's pretty flawed. The advantages rarely come into play and the magic system is so weak that all 4 characters play largely the same. Yeah, it could have been implemented better. I do think it's a technique that should have been used in more FF books though.
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Post by stevendoig on May 22, 2019 20:01:01 GMT
Possibly the book i'm looking forward to tackling the least in my marathon!
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,451
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on May 23, 2019 7:55:05 GMT
Possibly the book i'm looking forward to tackling the least in my marathon! True, six shotties at that might take a while!
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Post by Hanky on Oct 30, 2019 9:11:35 GMT
I never played it until two days ago and ... whaaaaaaaat a chore. Complexity for complexity's sake is never a good idea. The stupid 'what's my name' additions, the endless fights, the countdown at the end (thanks god I never went that far by myself) ... I had a nervous crazy laugh when I saw the length of the walthrough in the solution. And when doing it, I really though about just giving up, because this book is so boring and loooooooong. And yup, the 4 different characters is just a gimmick ... I will say I will prefer to do Crypt of the Sorcerer again than this book : At least 'Crypt' is merciful and usually kill you fast.
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vagsancho
Knight
Posts: 809
Favourite Gamebook Series: CRYPT OF THE SORCERER
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Post by vagsancho on Oct 30, 2019 22:15:51 GMT
I never played it until two days ago and ... whaaaaaaaat a chore. Complexity for complexity's sake is never a good idea. The stupid 'what's my name' additions, the endless fights, the countdown at the end (thanks god I never went that far by myself) ... I had a nervous crazy laugh when I saw the length of the walthrough in the solution. And when doing it, I really though about just giving up, because this book is so boring and loooooooong. And yup, the 4 different characters is just a gimmick ... I will say I will prefer to do Crypt of the Sorcerer again than this book : At least 'Crypt' is merciful and usually kill you fast. I understand. Crypt of the Sorcerer is the most perfect fighting fantasy gamebook of all!
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Post by Charles X. on Jul 16, 2021 18:42:51 GMT
The character creation system is flawed because it is biased against the magic-user. My suggestion for a new character class 'half-elf' who has the same identity as Sallazar but +1 Initial and Current Luck and +1 Initial and Current Stamina. As it is Sallazar is unplayable unless you somehow roll near-perfect starting stats.
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Post by Peter on Nov 28, 2021 5:24:32 GMT
Well. Here I am, joining the discussion on the Legend of Zagor, having just become a person who has completed it.
Boy oh boy, I am exhausted! That took a long time. And required a lot of bookkeeping.
Mostly, I agree with what other people have been saying about this book.
I like the idea of giving the player autonomy to explore at will, making you take on some GM-like responsibilities. The trouble I had was that I took several weeks to complete the book, so I had forgotten a lot of the details of how the items worked and what I should be saving them for (and even that I had them, in some instances). My adventure sheet was overflowing with notes.
I particularly liked the idea of selecting characters, each with their own strengths and weaknesses. I don't like the Wizard idea of presenting pre-rolled characters, just in case you can't be bothered rolling a few dice before you start your dice-rolling adventure. I don't buy into that at all. If you want your character to have a back-story, make it up yourself (i.e., do some role-playing!). This way is much better, with a variety of templates to choose from and the player still creating their own character.
The book has its weaknesses. It is too long (although on the other hand, this can facilitate immersion – it dominates your life for several days!). The characters are unbalanced. In particular, Sallazar should be able to use magic instead of rolling for attack strengths, not just when he wins an attack round. When he most needs to cast a spell is when he is unable to.
There are so many rules to remember; they take up nearly 40 pages! Couldn't this have been reduced somehow? Was it necessary to explain Testing your Spot Skill, or what Special Hazards are?
I like the book and I would like to have seen more with this type of set-up. It is more like a solo RPG than most books are, which has a definite appeal. I just wonder if it is possible to do something like this with less bookwork required. To quote an earlier poster: "it sinks under its own weight".
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Post by soulreaver on Feb 9, 2022 2:58:15 GMT
Personally I'm a big fan of how 'game-like' Legend of Zagor is, but this same thing is also what pulls it down: while there are lots of optional weapons, items etc that you can use, and thus it gives you far more choices on how to approach combats etc than the average Fighting Fantasy book, the underlying combat (and especially magic) systems really get in the way of it being enjoyable, and some of the rules are explained very poorly as well.
It's fundamentally hurt by the fact that Skill rules all: if you have a high Skill score, you'll have a much easier time than if you have a low Skill score. Regardless of the choices you make, you will die horribly to one of the many Skill 10+ creatures if you don't yourself have a skill of at least 10+, and this is made worse by the fact that the average skill for Stubble is 8.5 and the average Skill for Sallazar is a measly 7.5. If you roll anything less than a 6 when rolling for Sallazar's skill you can start again immediately without bothering with the rest of the book.
The problem with the magic system (which Sallazar is the most reliant on) is twofold:
Firstly, there is very little reason to ever to attempt to cast an in-combat spell, since you have to win the attack round for it to fire off. Which it usually won't, seeing as Sallazar has the lowest skill of all the heroes. Secondly, Magic Points are simply too rare. Sure, Sallazar starts with more, and has a very small number of extra ways of getting more during the adventure than the other two characters, but overall a Magic Ring will only refill 1 Magic, and there's only a limited number of Magic Rings in the game and these are just as limited for Sallazar as for other characters. If Sallazar casts any of the 'optional' spells available to him, he'll run out of Magic Points way too fast.
I actually came up with some ideas to help fix Sallazar/the magic system and make it that strategic use of magic is both desirable and possible: 1. Sallazar gets +1 Attack Strength when casting an in-combat spell (this represents his skill as a spellcaster, as opposed to his skill as a warrior, and puts him 'on par' with Stubble's natural combat ability as long as he's attacking using spells) 2. The Skill spell explicitly allows you to exceed your Initial Skill for its duration (I think this is in fact the intended behavior but the book doesn't specify this) 3. The Fast Hands spell provides +1 Attack Strength for the entire combat as well as its usual benefits (this is so that it isn't vastly inferior to the mutually-exclusive Skill Spell yet costs twice as much)
4. Sallazar can cast spells inscribed on scrolls without expending any Magic Points at all. Note that scrolls are single use for everyone (the rules don't actually specify this) 5. When using a Magic Ring, Sallazar gains not just 1 Magic Point, but rather Magic Points equal to half his Initial total (rounding up). Magic Rings can be used at any time (optionally: except during combat).
6. The Fireball spell only costs 1 Magic Point to cast (since it can fail) 7. The Thunderclap spell only costs 2 Magic Points to cast (this makes it a notably less efficient choice than just casting 2 Fireballs but it still has some edge-case uses)
8. Create Food can only be cast a maximum of 3 times during the adventure (to limit overusing it, since Magic Points are now more plentiful)
Maybe some balancing would be needed for the Stamina spell that Zuqurulum teaches you as well, but I'm not sure about that yet.
It doesn't exactly make the game easy, but at least makes it possible to finish with 9 Skill, and gives some actual tactical spellcasting options while it's at it. With the use of a Skill/Fast Hands spell and using in-combat spells, it means Sallazar's combat ability is actually superior to Braxus/Anvar (cumulative +2 in combat, making up for his 2 points lower Skill, while also dishing out more damage). This is balanced out by it costing Magic Points, which now are not as irreplaceable as before, but are still precious.
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Post by a moderator on Feb 9, 2022 12:55:06 GMT
5. When using a Magic Ring, Sallazar gains not just 1 Magic Point, but rather Magic Points equal to his Initial total (rounding up). The reference to rounding up suggests that that's supposed to be a fraction of his Initial total. Half?
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sylas
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"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,678
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Feb 9, 2022 16:34:13 GMT
My ideas on improvements:
-Sallazar starts with 9 MP not 7. -In-combat spells can be cast at any time with immediate effect (instead of having to win the Attack Round first). -When Sallazar finds a spell scroll he can either cast it for free or drain it to restore 1 MP. -The Wand of the Hawk increases Magic to 12. -Stubble can use the Magic Axe that the Hellhorn guards.
-Rolling Luck for all characters (rounding up) Stubble: ½d6 +9 Anvar: ½d6 +7 Sallazar and Braxus: ½d6 +6
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Post by nathanh on Feb 9, 2022 19:55:44 GMT
I'd go for a small number of tweaks in the first instance:
-Characters roll Skill and Luck normally, but are capped by their character's canonical maximum -Jallarial doesn't have to choose a spell to cast until she wins the attack round -Jallarial rolls normally for Stamina
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Post by CharlesX on Feb 9, 2022 20:42:43 GMT
Disagree with the suggestion Sallazar should be able to cast a spell after winning an attack round, the game wouldn't flow smoothly or feel right. I did just that the first or second time I played LOZ as Sallazar (partly through misreading the rules, and reckoning Sallazar was too weak), and it didn't work, more so than the original. My own suggestion is the King's Sage could give Sallazar a +1 attack strength ring, for whatever narrative reason (he likes wizards, he has good standing with the King, the ring is powerful for wizards but useless for muggles, pick one). Notice as it is, even a maxed-out Sallazar is more than 15% less likely to win than Braxus.
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Post by soulreaver on Feb 9, 2022 23:50:58 GMT
5. When using a Magic Ring, Sallazar gains not just 1 Magic Point, but rather Magic Points equal to his Initial total (rounding up). The reference to rounding up suggests that that's supposed to be a fraction of his Initial total. Half? Sorry, you're right, that was a typo.
Corrected now.
Playtesting with my modifications certainly makes a Sallazar game more balanced (and I'd venture to say a lot more fun).
I'm considering +2 Attack Strength when casting in-combat spells actually, since they tend to be woefully useless otherwise.
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Post by soulreaver on Feb 26, 2022 20:58:12 GMT
Ok, so I ran a few test attempts with Sallazar and my suggested rule changes to Sallazar: - Magic Rings restore Magic Points = 1/2 of initial Magic Points (rounding down) and can be used any time except during combat
- Fireball costs 1 MP - Thunderbolt costs 2 MP - Skill Spell lets you exceed Initial Skill for the duration (pretty sure that's how it works anyway but just making that clear)
- Fast Hands provides +1 Attack Strength for the duration of the combat in addition to its normal effects
- Casting spells in-combat provides +2 Attack Strength for that attack - Can cast spells from Scrolls for free, though it expends the scroll - Can only cast Create Food a max of 3 times during the Adventure - Can only cast Stamina Spell/Special Stamina Spell a max of 3 times during the Adventure
My tests were done with a Skill score of 9, so as to be sub-optimal.
Died a couple of times, but then won with the following (not great) starting scores: Skill = 9 Stamina = 13 Luck = 6
I didn't make all 'optimal' choices and took a few risks (for example, I did visit the fountain despite the fact that I knew it would overall be worse for me). My rolls were fairly standard, though I think I successfully tested my luck a bit more than I would have expected with such a low luck score. Quite a few close calls where I was down to 2 or 1 Stamina.
It required really careful MP management and strategic choices about what spells to cast and when. Ended up with no magic rings and only 2 MP left and had used pretty much everything I found on the adventure.
The balance felt right and the need to pick and choose what to cast/what to use made it one of the most strategic/tactical books in the series.
Won't be for everyone but I thought it was actually really good this way.
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Post by CharlesX on Feb 26, 2022 22:18:33 GMT
Ok, so I ran a few test attempts with Sallazar and my suggested rule changes to Sallazar: - Magic Rings restore Magic Points = 1/2 of initial Magic Points (rounding down) and can be used any time except during combat
- Fireball costs 1 MP - Thunderbolt costs 2 MP - Skill Spell lets you exceed Initial Skill for the duration (pretty sure that's how it works anyway but just making that clear)
- Fast Hands provides +1 Attack Strength for the duration of the combat in addition to its normal effects
- Casting spells in-combat provides +2 Attack Strength for that attack - Can cast spells from Scrolls for free, though it expends the scroll - Can only cast Create Food a max of 3 times during the Adventure - Can only cast Stamina Spell/Special Stamina Spell a max of 3 times during the Adventure My tests were done with a Skill score of 9, so as to be sub-optimal. Died a couple of times, but then won with the following (not great) starting scores: Skill = 9 Stamina = 13 Luck = 6 I didn't make all 'optimal' choices and took a few risks (for example, I did visit the fountain despite the fact that I knew it would overall be worse for me). My rolls were fairly standard, though I think I successfully tested my luck a bit more than I would have expected with such a low luck score. Quite a few close calls where I was down to 2 or 1 Stamina.
It required really careful MP management and strategic choices about what spells to cast and when. Ended up with no magic rings and only 2 MP left and had used pretty much everything I found on the adventure. The balance felt right and the need to pick and choose what to cast/what to use made it one of the most strategic/tactical books in the series. Won't be for everyone but I thought it was actually really good this way.
I (personally) think you are being too generous with the rings, scrolls and other things. This isn't a fashionable opinion but I think giving Sallazar special abilities (entirely arbitrarily) seriously imbalances LOZ in terms of gameplay and enjoyment. Yes, he's tough to play - there are lots of tough FFs, many of them tougher than Sallazar in LOZ. But I would be lying if I didn't acknowledge LOZ was broken. If only CS had a few playtesters, or good editors, it wouldn't be amateurs like us digging with plastic, trying to make changes when we really don't know where to start. LOZ should be better than it is, but I'm in the minority who enjoy this misfire.
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Post by soulreaver on Feb 27, 2022 3:59:08 GMT
Ok, so I ran a few test attempts with Sallazar and my suggested rule changes to Sallazar: - Magic Rings restore Magic Points = 1/2 of initial Magic Points (rounding down) and can be used any time except during combat
- Fireball costs 1 MP - Thunderbolt costs 2 MP - Skill Spell lets you exceed Initial Skill for the duration (pretty sure that's how it works anyway but just making that clear)
- Fast Hands provides +1 Attack Strength for the duration of the combat in addition to its normal effects
- Casting spells in-combat provides +2 Attack Strength for that attack - Can cast spells from Scrolls for free, though it expends the scroll - Can only cast Create Food a max of 3 times during the Adventure - Can only cast Stamina Spell/Special Stamina Spell a max of 3 times during the Adventure
My tests were done with a Skill score of 9, so as to be sub-optimal.
Died a couple of times, but then won with the following (not great) starting scores: Skill = 9 Stamina = 13 Luck = 6
I didn't make all 'optimal' choices and took a few risks (for example, I did visit the fountain despite the fact that I knew it would overall be worse for me). My rolls were fairly standard, though I think I successfully tested my luck a bit more than I would have expected with such a low luck score. Quite a few close calls where I was down to 2 or 1 Stamina.
It required really careful MP management and strategic choices about what spells to cast and when. Ended up with no magic rings and only 2 MP left and had used pretty much everything I found on the adventure.
The balance felt right and the need to pick and choose what to cast/what to use made it one of the most strategic/tactical books in the series.
Won't be for everyone but I thought it was actually really good this way.
I (personally) think you are being too generous with the rings, scrolls and other things. This isn't a fashionable opinion but I think giving Sallazar special abilities (entirely arbitrarily) seriously imbalances LOZ in terms of gameplay and enjoyment. Yes, he's tough to play - there are lots of tough FFs, many of them tougher than Sallazar in LOZ. But I would be lying if I didn't acknowledge LOZ was broken. If only CS had a few playtesters, or good editors, it wouldn't be amateurs like us digging with plastic, trying to make changes when we really don't know where to start. LOZ should be better than it is, but I'm in the minority who enjoy this misfire. I'm not actually an amateur - I've got some past experience creating game designs that ended up being popular - so this isn't me just shooting in the dark.
I'm actually a huge fan of Legend of Zagor, flawed as it may be - which is all the more reason why its problems irk me. It's a few steps away from greatness, but those steps consist primarily of bad rule design.
Before you make the call that I've gone too far with the changes, try playing through the game with them.
In my latest playthrough I finished with no Magic Rings left, all optional items used (except some provisions and 2 Magic Arrows) and only 2 Magic Points and 9 Stamina left - and numerous close calls. Note I didn't fudge any dice rolls or cheat in any way.
The changes I made are not arbitrary: each change is intended to address specific issues with the magic/game system that hit Sallazar particularly hard. Plus the changes are not hard to explain away lore-wise either.
I'll dig deeper into it what the changes are supposed to address: The Legend of Zagor is definitely a lot more 'game-like' than some other Fighting Fantasy books. That's because it has a LOT of combats, but at the same time, also provides a lot of optional, limited use items and bonuses that can be used for those combats. Finding them and choosing the right times to use them is as much required in this game as it is to make the right choices and get the right plot tokens. It's a game of statistics: use up the right item/cast the right spell at the right time to make your statistical chance of surviving a given combat/challenge go up.
I really like that design. The problem is that some of the basic rules are half-baked.
The first problem is that combat in Fighting Fantasy is really, really basic. The statistics behind it are simple - Skill is (almost) everything, and it's determined randomly, as the start of the game, with a D6 roll. In The Legend of Zagor, there are many (difficult) combats that you pretty much have to engage with if you want to win, and with that many combats, a low skill score is going to screw you over.
And this is why Sallazar (and to a lesser extent, Stubble) are both majorly disadvantaged from the outset: their Skill is automatically likely to be lower than the other characters. For Anvar and Braxus, a roll of 5 or 6 gives them enough skill to get through the game without too much hassle For Stubble, a 6 is needed to not have too much trouble - a 5 might be do-able but will be tough For Sallazar, only a 6 really gives him a chance, and it's not a good one.
Naturally, this would suggest that Sallazar's magic ability should make up for his poor skill... but it really doesn't. The problem with magic in the game is as follows: - Casting it consumes Magic Points, but Sallazar doesn't actually have a massive advantage in this regard. He starts with 4 more MP than Braxus, and gets (up to) 18 additional MP from the Wand of the Hawk (depending on if he has used up all his MP before picking it up, and assuming he uses it to recharge his MP again later when it's at 0) but other than that has no MP advantages over the other characters, as the number of Magic Rings he gets is no different from anyone else.
- To compensate for his low Skill, he has to use spells... namely the Skill spell. If you start with anything less than 10 Skill, you'll be needing that spell often, and it will rapidly bleed away your Magic point advantage. Casting any of the other 'optional' spells (Open, Create Food, or heaven forbid, Fireball/Thunderbolt/Death Spell) will slice it away in no time flat - The in-combat spells are almost entirely useless for a lower-skill Sallazar. They drain MP super-fast, and as his Skill is no better than Stubble's even WITH a Skill spell, it's dangerous to cast it in any actual dangerous combat, as there is a good chance of failing the attack round and wasting the MP for no gain at all. I wanted to give Sallazar a fighting chance of winning even if he rolls a 5 for Skill, and I think my changes achieve that.
Every change I made was carefully considered to try and address the above problems and make Sallazar's spellcasting more central and actually FUN:
Magic Rings restore Magic Points = 1/2 of initial Magic Points (rounding down) and can be used any time except during combat
Design-wise, this gives Sallazar a lot more Magic Points to play with. Note I STILL ran out of Magic Rings by the end of the game when I played with Skill 9, but it let me be a bit freer with casting, pulling out Fireballs or even Thunderbolt or Death spells in emergencies and use the Skill spell far more freely. Lore-wise, it's not hard to imagine that a trained wizard would be able to make better, more efficient use of the energy stored in a Magic Ring than other, non-wizard characters.
Fireball costs 1 MP
MAYBE doing 3 extra Stamina of damage isn't a good deal for 2 MP. Combat spells are fun - let's encourage their use. Reducing the cost makes it more likely you'll actually try to cast this.
Thunderbolt costs 2 MP Similar to the above - note that you're less likely to use this than just cast 2 fireballs, but it still has its uses when you need something dead right quick.
Skill Spell lets you exceed Initial Skill for the duration As I mentioned, I'm pretty sure this is how the rules were intended anyway. In any case, without the Skill spell Sallazar is horrendously disadvantaged in pretty much every major combat.
Fast Hands provides +1 Attack Strength for the duration of the combat in addition to its normal effects
Fast hands is simply not worth it for 2 MP in its basic form. It's not just that its super-short duration is a problem (only 3 rounds, after which its useless), but that it comes at the opportunity cost of casting Skill instead. I'd MUCH rather have +1 Skill for the entire combat than be able to roll twice for just the first 3 rounds, and I definitely don't want to pay twice the MP cost to miss out on that. This way, Fast Hands is actually genuinely better than the Skill spell.
Casting spells in-combat provides +2 Attack Strength for that attack This is a major, important one: it means there is a point to trying to cast spells in combat. For just that spell, you actually become just as likely (or more so) as Braxus or Anvar to hit your opponent, and do more damage besides. It's still a gamble, but much less of one. It creates scenarios where, when things start going pear shaped, you go "screw this" and bring out the big guns to change a defeat into a win... at the cost of several MP. Which now you can actually afford to do on occasion, on account of the change to the Magic Rings. Lore-wise, this isn't hard to explain. While Sallazar is generally less-skilled than the other heroes at most things, I don't think it's hard to imagine that he'd be at the same level as them when performing his speciality - that is, casting spells. There's even a precedent for it in the rules: he gets a bonus to 'testing his spot skill' because he's eagle-eyed. Why not a bonus to his Attack Strength when using magic because he's an expert wizard?
Can cast spells from Scrolls for free, though it expends the scroll Scrolls have to exist in this book to give the non-casters the ability to cast spells. The problem is that these treasures are rendered completely useless/moot for Sallazar. By letting him cast the spell on the scroll for free, they now suddenly ARE worth something. They also encourage you to occasionally cast a spell you otherwise might not bother with (eg, Fast Hands) because, hey, it's free, and it gives him more MP to play with (same reasoning as the Magic Ring change). And it makes you, the player, actually feel pleased to find a scroll as Sallazar, rather than going "meh".
Lore-wise, again, it's not hard to imagine a trained wizard would be able to use the same magics that allow non-casters to allow them to create a spell effect they normally couldn't, to instead fully fuel the casting of a spell that they do know how to cast.
Can only cast Create Food a max of 3 times during the Adventure Can only cast Stamina Spell/Special Stamina Spell a max of 3 times during the Adventure This is a necessary rebalancing to prevent the player from healing themselves up all the time with the additional MP they have. Under the original rules, you weren't likely to cast these spells all that often anyway due to the super-low availability of MP, but with the changes, it becomes necessary to add some restrictions. This way, they will likely not get used much more than originally, and the MP can be used for more 'fun' things (like Fireballs, Death Spells etc) instead.
Lastly, saying 'other Fighting Fantasy books are harder' isn't really relevant to The Legend of Zagor. What I'm trying to do is make Sallazar fun to play, not to fix problems in other books.
But as I said earlier, I think the proof is in the playing. Play it both with and without the above rules and see which one is more fun.
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Post by slloyd14 on Jul 7, 2022 15:15:45 GMT
The character creation system is flawed because it is biased against the magic-user. My suggestion for a new character class 'half-elf' who has the same identity as Sallazar but +1 Initial and Current Luck and +1 Initial and Current Stamina. As it is Sallazar is unplayable unless you somehow roll near-perfect starting stats. I agree. One problem is the rules with combat spells. Sure, you can do 7 damage with a lightning bolt, but you have to win an attack round to do it and if you are the wizard, you have a low skill. The rule should be that the spell works regardless of combat rolls. The thing is that magic points are so low and opportunities to restore them are so rare that you could have a rule that if you cast a spell, you don't roll dice and just resolve the spell for that round, the game would not be broken in favour of the spellcaster.
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vagsancho
Knight
Posts: 809
Favourite Gamebook Series: CRYPT OF THE SORCERER
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Post by vagsancho on Nov 24, 2022 20:07:38 GMT
I AM playing this book right now... I AM in the middle or something like that... Something is wrong... I AM not liking it... Comparing with other books of Keith Martin, like tower of Destruction, and night dragon... I AM feeling Legend of zagor with much LESS atmospehere, much more Boring, and much worse designed.
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,678
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Nov 24, 2022 20:29:47 GMT
I don't dislike this book as much as most others but I do agree that for a Keith Martin adventure, this one feels lacking in good storytelling.
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vagsancho
Knight
Posts: 809
Favourite Gamebook Series: CRYPT OF THE SORCERER
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Post by vagsancho on Nov 24, 2022 23:23:31 GMT
Is this really a book made by Keith Martin? Comparing with Tower of Destruction and Night Dragon, ir seems that it was an amateur who wrote it: very boring, weak atmospehere, and bad design. (You go to the west... There you see 3 Doors to the north, One door to the south and One passage to the west)...(you chose the passageway... You come to another Room where you now see two Doors to the west and One door to the east)... Boring (...)
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kieran
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Post by kieran on Nov 25, 2022 10:15:50 GMT
Is this really a book made by Keith Martin? Comparing with Tower of Destruction and Night Dragon, ir seems that it was an amateur who wrote it: very boring, weak atmospehere, and bad design. (You go to the west... There you see 3 Doors to the north, One door to the south and One passage to the west)...(you chose the passageway... You come to another Room where you now see two Doors to the west and One door to the east)... Boring (...) I suspect it was more limited by being tied to a board game - so more focus on exploration than story.
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vagsancho
Knight
Posts: 809
Favourite Gamebook Series: CRYPT OF THE SORCERER
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Post by vagsancho on Nov 25, 2022 13:33:23 GMT
Is this really a book made by Keith Martin? Comparing with Tower of Destruction and Night Dragon, ir seems that it was an amateur who wrote it: very boring, weak atmospehere, and bad design. I suspect it was more limited by being tied to a board game - so more focus on exploration than story. Yes. It is precisely that feeling of board games. Awfull. Horrible. Bad book
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Post by CharlesX on Nov 25, 2022 16:10:02 GMT
Is this really a book made by Keith Martin? Comparing with Tower of Destruction and Night Dragon, ir seems that it was an amateur who wrote it: very boring, weak atmospehere, and bad design. (You go to the west... There you see 3 Doors to the north, One door to the south and One passage to the west)...(you chose the passageway... You come to another Room where you now see two Doors to the west and One door to the east)... Boring (...) I suspect it was more limited by being tied to a board game - so more focus on exploration than story. I know Legend Of Zagor shares its name with the board game Legend Of Zagor but SFAIK there was zero pressure put on Keith Martin and Ian Livingstone to include anything about the board game in the gamebook - Legend Of Zagor was a commercial failure whatever it has going for it or FF's founders might say in its defence. If anyone has any information to the contrary or has played this semi-obscure game and can cite examples please go ahead, but my understanding is Keith Martin just chose to write his gamebook in a game-esque style.
Edit: According to multiple sources fightingfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Legend_of_Zagor_(boardgame) gamebooks.org/Item/10303/Show the boardgame came after the gamebook so my apologies. I haven't played the boardgame and I suspect most other people here (or in general for that matter) haven't either, but to me Legend Of Zagor (gamebook) deserves praise for both its effort and originality, because even if it doesn't totally work it leaves many FFs standing. The boardgame on the other hand was a failure.
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vagsancho
Knight
Posts: 809
Favourite Gamebook Series: CRYPT OF THE SORCERER
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Post by vagsancho on Dec 6, 2022 21:14:04 GMT
I won this book today. Feeling a little better about the book because i won. But it is such an exaustive book! Do not like the style of Keith Martin of searching 5 places in 1 place, and more 5 places in 1 places, and more and more and more. In this book is just too much. Having won blood of the zombies and Legend of zagor, i must say blood of the zombies was better. Blood of the zombies was a good book.
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Post by philsadler on Dec 7, 2022 14:19:02 GMT
Did you win 'Blood' without cheating?
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Dec 8, 2022 14:49:06 GMT
Did you win 'Blood' without cheating? Of course – he was playing as Gingrich Yurr.
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Post by johnbrawn1972 on Dec 8, 2022 14:57:18 GMT
Did you win 'Blood' without cheating? I would not expect a rational answer.
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