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Post by weaselfierce on Dec 8, 2019 19:44:54 GMT
As the other threads, the rules are thus:
If given a chance to revise Forest of Doom, what changes would you make?
Encounters? Ending? Beginning? Paths? Errors?
The changes must be on a relatively small scale.
i.e. adding a new encounter is fine but completely changing the structure of the book is not.
My thoughts:
* The ending is a common point of criticism. If you wanted to keep the "go back and try again", have the wizard give you a device to rewind time. You keep anything you are carrying but the forest is "reset" logically.
Add a cost that you have to give up one item each time you do this.
Of course, being an easier book, I don't know if there's a real reason to be able to go back anyways.
* There's at least one encounter where both myself and the kid got frustrated, because encounters will give you the option to hide in the trees to avoid an encounter, but there's no option to try and spy on them.
* The "A cloud shows up and zaps you with lightning haha take 3 damage" is garbage.
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Post by a moderator on Dec 8, 2019 20:27:58 GMT
A more epic final encounter before Stonebridge would be good. Maybe if you have the whole hammer, a group of Trolls or Mirewater Dwarves tries to prevent you from returning it to Gillibran. Cue big fight, with the option of using certain items from earlier in the adventure to improve the odds.
The opposite of a revision, but essential: make sure it has the correct ruleset, unlike the Wizard edition that used the TWoFM rules which say you can only eat when the text says you can.
The fight against the Sting Worm would be a little less generic if there was a possibility of the sting doing extra damage.
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Dec 8, 2019 20:50:29 GMT
Maybe this falls under 'changing the structure of the book' but...
Ditch the ‘go back and try again’ ending whereby thanks to some sort of timewarp the recently-slain appear none the worse for wear, and also cut some of the less memorable or more pointless encounters like that zapping cloud and the laughably weak SKILL 9 STAMINA 9 giant.
If you reach Stonebridge without the hammer, you are too late and either see smoking ruins or it getting overrun. If you have the hammer, Gillibran rallies his people and you take part in the coming battle. |
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Post by schlendrian on Dec 8, 2019 22:46:04 GMT
The forest of doom could use a bit more description, just to feel more like a forest and less like a dungeon
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Post by Peter on Dec 9, 2019 8:07:17 GMT
A more plausible line from that old wizard, than the "I know exactly what happened to the hammer, but I have no idea where it is now" story that he spins. "Two goblins took the pieces, who knows if they still have them"? How could that be the sum of available information? How could you find out that much and not know more? Only those goblins knew what they did, how did the story get out? Who spread it?
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kieran
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Post by kieran on Dec 9, 2019 9:59:04 GMT
I have mixed feeling about the looping back ability - it makes the book too easy and it strains believability but it does mean you can explore false paths and still beat the book. So maybe it just need some tightening up - making a way to account for enemies already defeated, treasure already found etc - maybe that would be too big an overhaul though.
Again this is probably beyond the scope of what you're talking about, but I'd make Darkwood Forest more of an actual forest and less of a large area of scrubland surrounded by trees.
As already mentioned, a better final encounter than the bandits or perhaps making the bandits mercenaries hired by Mirewater who also want the hammer would be more fun.
And again as mentioned, a better explanation as to how Yaztromo knows about the goblins splitting the hammer would be good.
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Post by schlendrian on Dec 9, 2019 15:42:22 GMT
I have mixed feeling about the looping back ability - it makes the book too easy and it strains believability but it does mean you can explore false paths and still beat the book. So maybe it just need some tightening up - making a way to account for enemies already defeated, treasure already found etc - maybe that would be too big an overhaul though. I guess it could be done by giving the encounters numbers, like the clearings in Scorpion Swamp. If you have already had that encounter, there's just nothing happening. |
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Post by weaselfierce on Dec 9, 2019 20:09:07 GMT
Having an actual encounter with the trolls would be good. We don't actually see the troll threat to Stonebridge until Caverns I believe.
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Post by marblefigure on Dec 12, 2019 13:44:42 GMT
Yaztromo is the plot dumping old coot who performs the role of spelling out what the player character needs to know because he is the plot god, never mind how he knows it. The same generic mentor type as Dumbledore in Harry Potter.
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Post by a moderator on Dec 12, 2019 16:32:45 GMT
A more plausible line from that old wizard, than the "I know exactly what happened to the hammer, but I have no idea where it is now" story that he spins. "Two goblins took the pieces, who knows if they still have them"? How could that be the sum of available information? How could you find out that much and not know more? Only those goblins knew what they did, how did the story get out? Who spread it? The obvious explanation is that his crow witnessed the Goblins' fight and division of the hammer, then flew back to notify him when they went their separate ways. If he said that, but referred to the crow as 'my familiar', it would clear up that little oddity without giving away that the crow can be trusted when you encounter it later in the adventure. |
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Post by weaselfierce on Dec 12, 2019 18:58:10 GMT
As an aside, I do like that if you pay attention, you find what happened to both goblins (One captured by the ogre, the other eaten by the ghoul).
Not a massive revelation or anything, but in books full of weird "game logic", it's a nice touch of internal consistency.
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Post by Peter on Dec 13, 2019 8:45:24 GMT
A more plausible line from that old wizard, than the "I know exactly what happened to the hammer, but I have no idea where it is now" story that he spins. "Two goblins took the pieces, who knows if they still have them"? How could that be the sum of available information? How could you find out that much and not know more? Only those goblins knew what they did, how did the story get out? Who spread it? The obvious explanation is that his crow witnessed the Goblins' fight and division of the hammer, then flew back to notify him when they went their separate ways. If he said that, but referred to the crow as 'my familiar', it would clear up that little oddity without giving away that the crow can be trusted when you encounter it later in the adventure. Very good. That makes perfect sense. |
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Post by The Count on Dec 18, 2019 16:35:30 GMT
I'd change the hammer being split into two items to having to find a second relic and instead of the silly go back to the start where everything is reset (and potentially finding the same part of the hammer multiple times) have the ending being a confrontation with the enemies of stone bridge which you win if you have both, and lose if you don't.
More forest would be good as well.
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Post by stevendoig on Dec 22, 2019 6:39:53 GMT
yep - more forest definitely needed!
I mindwhen I was a laddie and first mapped out the book, I was surprised to discover that far from being a thick; tangled dense primeval forest - Darkwood was a hollow circle of trees with a large dull grassy plain ( and a river) within. An odd desicion for Livingstone to make . (and also ignored on all maps depicting the area since - maybe there had been a huge fire and it gre back later on?
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Jan 28, 2020 0:47:05 GMT
It should be made out of cake. IL tried this for his 70th birthday:  (There might be some drawbacks to making books out of cake, but I can't think of any offhand.) |
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vagsancho
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Post by vagsancho on Feb 1, 2020 7:32:16 GMT
It should be made out of cake. IL tried this for his 70th birthday: (There might be some drawbacks to making books out of cake, but I can't think of any offhand.) A great cake! I miss it! So much... |
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CharlesX
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Post by CharlesX on Nov 29, 2021 19:49:50 GMT
Before Livingstone spent his working life writing gamebooks which were too hard, he wrote FOD, one that was too easy. Would you keep FOD the same, to stick to the premise any character can win, no matter their starting stats? For example, the Tin Man app has a medium difficulty setting where one's skill is 1d6 + 4.
FOD probably isn't Livingstone's best book, or his worst one, for that matter. It's sort of the 'nice' twin of Crypt where its biggest flaw is its blandness.
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Post by pip on Nov 29, 2021 19:57:08 GMT
What I'd change: allowing you to restart if you didn't get everything in the shopping list. Too easy.
I wonder if IL eventually made a point to make his gamebooks extremely difficult because people complained this one was too easy.
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Post by a moderator on Nov 29, 2021 20:21:28 GMT
The biggest flaw in FOD must surely be the way the forest 'resets' if you loop back to the start after failing to find both parts of the hammer. The simplest fix would be to make the book as unforgiving as pretty much every other gamebook Ian has ever written, so if you don't get the whole hammer on a single pass, you fail. Expanding the text with a load of Scorpion Swamp-esque 'if you have been here before' sections could be interesting if handled well.
A less anticlimactic final encounter would also be good. To quote my blog:
Some of the Trolls who are preparing to attack Stonebridge, or a gang of Mirewater Dwarves seeking to prevent the return of the hammer to Gillibran, would not be out of place. And if the hammer provided a Master of Chaos-style 'only works if your Skill is below 10' Attack Strength bonus, that could be a challenging final fight that doesn't automatically doom a character with below-average stats.
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CharlesX
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Post by CharlesX on Nov 29, 2021 22:31:48 GMT
The biggest flaw in FOD must surely be the way the forest 'resets' if you loop back to the start after failing to find both parts of the hammer. The simplest fix would be to make the book as unforgiving as pretty much every other gamebook Ian has ever written, so if you don't get the whole hammer on a single pass, you fail. Expanding the text with a load of Scorpion Swamp-esque 'if you have been here before' sections could be interesting if handled well. A less anticlimactic final encounter would also be good. To quote my blog: Some of the Trolls who are preparing to attack Stonebridge, or a gang of Mirewater Dwarves seeking to prevent the return of the hammer to Gillibran, would not be out of place. And if the hammer provided a Master of Chaos-style 'only works if your Skill is below 10' Attack Strength bonus, that could be a challenging final fight that doesn't automatically doom a character with below-average stats. I get the feeling Livingstone had not quite perfected the art of writing with FOD, one of his earlier gamebooks. I have a similar point about the resetting attack, where if you fail the luck roll, you are just shot down like a cowboy. While POP and AOA were distinctly undistinguished gamebooks, the writing in the latter in particular was wonderfully atmospheric (if minus points for continuity\ambiguity errors). Different point, I wonder whether SJ and IL will collaborate again? With Jackson's creativity and Livingstone's, whatever he's got, they would be amazing! |
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Post by schlendrian on Nov 30, 2021 16:02:41 GMT
Expanding the text with a load of Scorpion Swamp-esque 'if you have been here before' sections could be interesting if handled well. There doesn't even need to be additional sections. Just preface encounters with something along the lines of: "This is encounter 9. If you've had this encounter before, go to x. If not, make a note of it now and read on.", and have x be just the section number you'd get after the encounter anyway.
Btw, don't we have a thread like that already? Shouldn't those two be merged?
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Post by a moderator on Nov 30, 2021 16:36:47 GMT
Expanding the text with a load of Scorpion Swamp-esque 'if you have been here before' sections could be interesting if handled well. There doesn't even need to be additional sections. Just preface encounters with something along the lines of: "This is encounter 9. If you've had this encounter before, go to x. If not, make a note of it now and read on.", and have x be just the section number you'd get after the encounter anyway. That would make for a bit of a dull approach, though. The player's earlier actions having consequences beyond 'It's dead and all the treasure's gone' has more dramatic potential. Well-remembered. |
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Post by schlendrian on Nov 30, 2021 16:42:18 GMT
That would make for a bit of a dull approach, though. The player's earlier actions having consequences beyond 'It's dead and all the treasure's gone' has more dramatic potential. Point taken. I was still in the framework of going for the least change to the book. |
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Post by tyrion on Nov 30, 2021 17:36:27 GMT
That would make for a bit of a dull approach, though. The player's earlier actions having consequences beyond 'It's dead and all the treasure's gone' has more dramatic potential. Point taken. I was still in the framework of going for the least change to the book. Isn't that basically what scorpion swamp does? Fabled lands does it better, but even so, sometimes if you've looted an area, that's all there is to it. |
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CharlesX
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Post by CharlesX on Nov 30, 2021 17:40:06 GMT
Appreciate the merge; shouldah checked.
What interests me is you can acquire lots of money in FOD but get very little chance to spend it, except on Yaztromo of course? For example, IIRC at one point you can attack a Masked Rider for the rings he wears. If you defeat him - and it's a tough fight - I think IL doesn't even bother giving you those rings, with their gp value.
I liked the golden statuette in TOT, or the bonus mission in Freeway Fighter. They're just the sorts of things that could be on an App.
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Post by The Count on Nov 30, 2021 18:48:40 GMT
Remove the reset, replace with a difficult fight against some Trolls - maybe a Troll Chief who you kill with the hammer as this would make some sense.
Get a better artist for the internal illustrations.
Make most of the human encounters monster encounters instead.
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Nov 30, 2021 19:04:56 GMT
Get a better artist for the internal illustrations. I'm going to put in a bit of a defence for old Malcy Barter here and say I understand he was given very short notice to do the illustrations. (But I may be wrong). If you 'google images' his name you'll find other examples of his work. If none of them really float your boat, then fair enough. Rather than change the artist I'd let him redo the illustrations if he wanted, with more time to focus on backgrounds and whatnot. In a similar vein, compare and contrast what Peter Andrew Jones is capable of alongside the internal illustrations of Starship Traveller. And also we know that Kevin Bulmer stepped in at the last moment to illustrate FF13, when the original artist (and I don't know who it was) was unable to do the job. |
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Post by schlendrian on Nov 30, 2021 22:09:59 GMT
Appreciate the merge; shouldah checked. What interests me is you can acquire lots of money in FOD but get very little chance to spend it, except on Yaztromo of course? For example, IIRC at one point you can attack a Masked Rider for the rings he wears. If you defeat him - and it's a tough fight - I think IL doesn't even bother giving you those rings, with their gp value. I liked the golden statuette in TOT, or the bonus mission in Freeway Fighter. They're just the sorts of things that could be on an App. Not being able to spend your money bothered me in a lot of FFs. On the other hand, having merchants everywhere to use your gold is kind of silly as well and I think gold pieces were rather intended as some sort of victory points. |
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Post by slloyd14 on Jul 7, 2022 0:24:30 GMT
It really bugged me that the dust of levitation was something that you couldn't buy from Yaztromo. It sounded like something you should buy and yet you have to bet some strong man to get it, which is super random. It's almost as if Ian let you buy it from Yaztromo then decided that it was too easy so gave it to some random encounter instead.
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Post by scouserob on Jul 7, 2022 8:59:53 GMT
The obvious change for me:
Remove the loop back around to the start and replace it with an ending where you decide to stay, and die, in the hopeless defence of Stonebridge against the troll horde.
The loop, whilst a nice idea to encourage further exploration of the book, just does not work from a storyline perspective.
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