24) Creature of Havoc

[Deleted]

His grammar is perfect in TUFFF. Two different people, Vag is. A split personality? Or just eager to please?
I don't own the greenspine version to COH, just the Wizard one, and I really don't like it.

[vagsancho]

Dec 3, 2015 15:46:59 GMT @tammy said:

Two different people, Vag is. A split personality?

I am just one.

[Pete Byrdie]

Dec 3, 2015 16:59:33 GMT vagsancho said:

Dec 3, 2015 15:46:59 GMT @tammy said:

Two different people, Vag is. A split personality?

I am just one.

Unlike Tammy, who is sometimes Yoda.

[Deleted]

May the farce always be with Vagsancho.

[a moderator]

Any chance we could get back to discussing Creature of Havoc some time soon?

[deadshadowrunner]

Nppfa,sprryet pib vrst oypvrub vbblf.

[kieran]

Hbtfet ponjt pjcki, bvtushp vldn'tut hbtabfe "Nppfe, sprryot pob vrst uypvrub vbblf"?

[deadshadowrunner]

Pppso,fprgp to bbpvtut hfer vlf.

[a moderator]

Dec 5, 2015 10:06:02 GMT kieran said:

Hbtfet ponjt pjcki, bvtushp vldn'tut hbtabfe "Nppfe, sprryot pob vrst uypvrub vbblf"?

Jiw bsat hjn kjn gimv chuth fesb mfet hjng.

[vagsancho]

I hate the background of this book. Too long. And too much information for a creature without knowledge. Almost destroyed a good book.

[kieran]

Jun 13, 2019 9:33:13 GMT vagsancho said:

And too much information for a creature without knowledge. Almost destroyed a good book.

I know what you mean though it is cool bumping into characters mentioned in the background even though the creature itself shouldn't recognise them. Black Vein Prophecy's approach is arguably better.

[bloodbeasthandler]

The large background section of this book has been mentioned which, initially, seems to bear no relation to what is going on in the adventure.

It's clear Steve Jackson was working on fleshing-out this particular corner of Allansia, as can be seen in The Trolltooth Wars novel.

What effect was he trying to create when he included the background as he did? Was it just padding?

The reader reads the introduction (Tales of the Trolltooth Pass) and plays the book.... the start is disorientating and odd but as you (as the monster) progress, indeed names and places from the background section get mentioned. During the adventure, things can be reflected upon and surmised.

Could Steve Jackson's aim have been to simulate the monster gradually recalling and recollecting a knowledge of, and a familiarity with, the places, names and legends of that part of Allansia? A knowledge and familiarity that had been lost initially when YOU were transformed?

Perhaps the character would have recognised, or at least heard of, Vallaska Roue, Hannicus, the Vapours of Stittle Woad etc?

Does what I have written here make sense? Am I looking too deeply into it and reading into it things which are not there?

[vagsancho]

Very bad background. Too much big. Unbearable. Dislike also the fact of not meeting Thugruff. A punch in a stomach. Facts that have destroyed what could have been a very good book. A shame.

[Pete Byrdie]

Jun 15, 2019 9:47:35 GMT vagsancho said:

Very bad background. Too much big. Unbearable. Dislike also the fact of not meeting Thugruff. A punch in a stomach. Facts that have destroyed what could have been a very good book. A shame.

I remember enjoying all the world building more than the actual game, which in my youth I found confusing. If I attempted it now I'd probably fair better.

[schlendrian]

Jun 15, 2019 9:28:16 GMT bloodbeasthandler said:

Could Steve Jackson's aim have been to simulate the monster gradually recalling and recollecting a knowledge of, and a familiarity with, the places, names and legends of that part of Allansia? A knowledge and familiarity that had been lost initially when YOU were transformed?

That's a very interesting thought. I could actually see Steve come up with this and if so, it's a brilliant and elegant way of achieving this effect of returning memory and vague familiarity without having to always write phrases like "Suddenly you remember..."

[CharlesX]

About the notorious 'printing error' where the text doesn't have the words which notify you to turn to another page. This was removed in a later edition, then restored in another, still later edition (source: Titannica). If this is indeed SJ's idea of cleverness, it doesn't work, certainly not half as well as the writing mismatched, swapped directions on the signposts, and to me, not at all. Has no one never asked\mentioned this to SJ at an FF convention?
  Half the time newer editions add mistakes which weren't there before, so it wouldn't surprise me if it were the editors who didn't get it, rather than SJ.

[Ed]

The impression I have of SJ is that even if you did ask him directly, he wouldn't give you a straight answer.

He wants the reader to figure out things themselves.

[Akharis]

Did anyone here ever noticed the sinister pair of eyes staring down from the ceiling in the Chatter-Matter's room in 'Creature of Havoc'?

fightingfantasyproject.wordpress.com/category/024-creature-of-havoc/

I never noticed them until my attention was drawn to it. The Chatter-Matter got me good first time I played it...

[bloodbeasthandler]

Yeah I noticed them but only long after falling foul of the thing.
It's a good example of how Steve Jackson combines text and illustrations - he must have given the outline of what he wanted illustrated to Alan Langford.

[Akharis]

Even though it was years ago, I can remember the very first time I played this game book. I killed the Clawbeast then went north, found the hobit in the sack and was then killed by the Dark Elves after about a dozen references from the start of the book. Great fun though...

[a moderator]

[3 posts moved from the 'solution' thread to the 'general discussion of the book' thread.]

[CharlesX]

SJ put a lot of work into this. The introduction, the long paragraphs, the extra references, the difficulty balance. 
   But for me, the whole thing was torpedoed and ruined by the missing words telling you to secretly turn to another reference, intentional or not (and I hope they aren't intentional, or he's a world-class weirdo). And it's the same with so many other FFs, directed to the wrong paragraph, references swapped around, & more. I wonder why the quality control was - is - so poor for what is after all a best-selling series; and whether it's the editor or the writer who is to blame.

[tyrion]

If it's intentional, it's not a mistake, or a bug, it's a feature of the book. It has been suggested that by this stage you should have started to work things out a bit more.

Funnily enough, I never tell foul of it though. Maybe I just read the words 'dead end' and took a punt, and was lucky enough to get it right.

As to who's at fault for the mistakes, ultimately it is the editor, or whoever is in charge of proof reading. As a writer, I know how easy it is for mislinked references to creep in, and this is in the age of twine, gdocs and spreadsheets. I'd hate to write a 400 reference flow chart in pencil.

[kieran]

Mar 28, 2022 19:39:09 GMT CharlesX said:

I wonder why the quality control was - is - so poor for what is after all a best-selling series; and whether it's the editor or the writer who is to blame.

I find typos in a lot of conventional books - mistakes happen that even a diligent author and editor combo might miss. Unfortunately while it's no big deal in a conventional book, it can be gamebreaking in a gamebook.
Although I suspect you are right that editing for FF wasn't of a very high standard, especially for the later books.

[Adrius]

Something that still bugs me is: how the player, as a creature that can't talk, can ask Weaseltongue questions.

[CharlesX]

Apr 23, 2022 6:56:07 GMT Adrius said:

Something that still bugs me is: how the player, as a creature that can't talk, can ask Weaseltongue questions.

It isn't unimaginable at that point you can talk but not well, comparable to somebody with cerebral palsy. After all, it's mentioned you can't talk when you encounter the half-orc, who's name if he has one I don't recall, the encounter with Weaseltongue is later. Plus, Weaseltongue is a powerful magic elf. Maybe the ring grants you special powers.
  It is arguably a plothole, but not the biggest one I know in literature.

[a moderator]

Apr 23, 2022 6:56:07 GMT Adrius said:

Something that still bugs me is: how the player, as a creature that can't talk, can ask Weaseltongue questions.

The creature is literate, so perhaps it uses its claws to carve a question into the bark of a nearby tree.

[CharlesX]

Apr 23, 2022 12:52:56 GMT a moderator said:

Apr 23, 2022 6:56:07 GMT Adrius said:

Something that still bugs me is: how the player, as a creature that can't talk, can ask Weaseltongue questions.

The creature is literate, so perhaps it uses its claws to carve a question into the bark of a nearby tree.

Quite possibly, although Adrius has a point because it's established elsewhere your hands are so big and monstrous they are incapable of turning a key, were you to have one.

[IoannesKantakouzenos]

The question thing also bugged me: so, you cannot speak nor use keys but you are able to ask questions? How? Sign language (lol)?

Some other thing that nags me after beating the book is this:

SPOILER: Click to show

OK, you are restored to human form, as the rightful owner of the Galleykeep; your entire crew has been transformed into creatures and killed (or eaten by yourself) and replaced by creatures that obey Zharradan Marr or his lackeys and the only thing you are told is that "Marr's brainless creatures will respect your authority."... how, by hocus-pocus magic? Or are we to assume that, since you command a ship that floats in the air, you have some degree of magic and are able to control them creatures? And what becomes of Quimmel Bone and Nimbicus, who are now your cabinet-neighbours?

Other than that, I loved the book, I must admit. Although I imagined that, as a big creature, I'd be stronger (2d6+24 of Stamina, perhaps)...

[IoannesKantakouzenos]

(after a more in-depth analisys of the book, since it was the last one I acquired)

SPOILER: Click to show

I really love how SJ gave some thought to the adventure and wasn't scarce with the descriptions: some of his humongous death descriptions tickled my fancy, like Darramouss' death by rice, or Quimmel Bone's (related perhaps to Zanbar Bone?) live vivissection; SJ's sadism is even more present in the two eternal fight loops you have with the Chaos Warrior and Quimmel Bone. And the illustrations suit it nicely: I absolutely love (194)'s Zombie (even though the grubs could be more noticeable), and (217)'s Cursewitch (which somehow reminds me of the Vampire in TWoFM); and the detail of the Chattermatter's eyes looking at you in (323) is cool too. I can agree with folks who say that the introduction is pretty massive and pretty much little of it will be needed during the adventure - but it's nice to have a big picture to start with.

All in all, one for the top shelf. Hands down.