11) Talisman of Death

[thealmightymudworm]

masterchief:
_________________________________________
Do you love this book so much you tuck it under the covers at night? Did you hate it so badly you used it as loo-roll? Let the world know!

~MC~


~ Vae Victis! ~

[thealmightymudworm]

hynreck:
_________________________________________
Le talisman de la mort is a book I've own since a was young, part of those mystical first few I owned, in fact, but one that, for all my efforts, I couldn't remember the story no matter how hard I tried.


Which must mean that back then, I didn't played it a lot. Because it was bad? Can't remember. I remember that I didn't have a hard time with it, but that probably because you can easily get away with cheating in that one.

Now that I've played it again, the Wizard edition, I find myself torn. I certainly enjoyed it enough. At first, I was a bit put off by all the apparent LOTR stealing... Start in Moria with hordes of... okay, no Goblins or Orcs, not yet anyway, but Black Elves and "They've got a Cave Troll" and look over there! A Balrog!

- Nah Sir, no Balrog was ever mentioned.

But! Never mind. Greyguild was a lot of fun. A weird place where fashion victims resides, but still. And then it's off to Mount Doom and an overall story arc that's tie together yet feels like a patchwork of ideas that would have benefit from a longer series.

Now I think there was a book or series that used materials from Orb and it's denizens, some of you guys will fill me in, but I don't know about those, never read those. So in the end the book feels unfinished. You meet a lot of interesting characters, get involved in elaborate set-pieces, learn about fairly detailed background informations that are never fully used or used at all.
Surely, greater plans were elaborated for characters like Tyutchev, Cassandra, Thaum or even Hawkana. They all have interesting parts to play, but ultimately don't amount to much in the grand scale of things. There's no final epic battle against Tyutchev and his girlfriends (yes Thaum too) at the summit of Star-reach. Instead we are treated to Smaug #19. It's all great fun but you wonder why the authors bothered to set up such nice villains to have them left on the wayside later on. Of course, unless they planned more FF adventures in the world of Orb, with perhaps the same hero.

Were they re-used in The Way of the Tiger or something? Seems a shame otherwise!

For the cover, for once, I prefer the new cover by Martin McKenna over the original. It's basically the same, but I would go for the darker, more realistic Ringwraith of the two. Those dudes might be leftovers from LOTR, like Greenspine mentioned, even being as far as totally avoidable in the main story, but still, they deserve to look like they came out of the movie, at the very least.

For the inside illos, most are nice, some are a bit weird, but overall they left me neither hot nor cold. One very good thing, though, is that the original edition is jam-packed with illos! What I mean is that, compare to that edition, my french copy is missing so many illos it's not even funny anymore. Seriously, I think I stop counting after ten. From all my french copies of FF, this one is so far, and by far, the one missing the most illos from the original. So, on that side of things, playing Talisman of Death again was a real treat. A pure discovery, in a way!


Speak in extremes, it will save you time.

[thealmightymudworm]

greenspine:
_________________________________________
Tyutchev, Cassandra and Thaum do reappear in The Way of the Tiger, but Hawkana's too dead to return. Tyutchev also appears in the appallingly-written third book of the Virtual Reality Adventures series, and there's a possible interlude on Orb, featuring a cameo by Lord Min, in Falcon book 4.

[thealmightymudworm]

hynreck:
_________________________________________
Thanks for the info, Greenspine. I'm only really familiar with The Way of the Tiger series, but I'm wondering if I ever seen Virtual Reality and such. Mind you, the name of the series were in french, so I need to find the translation first. Maybe I'll go look on Wiki when I get a chance. I'm bound to find a clue...


Speak in extremes, it will save you time.

[thealmightymudworm]

greenspine:
_________________________________________
The original title of the Virtual Reality Adventures book that features Tyutchev is The Coils of Hate. Almost certainly the worst in the series, so you might also want to look into the ones that don't have him in, as some of them are very good indeed. But this is getting massively off-topic.

What do people think of the way Talisman of Death allows you to call on the All-Mother for help even if you've never been told you can do it? Did the authors fail to make it clear that only those who had learned the correct invocation should be able to get away from the Tyutchev/Cassandra/Thaum fight, or did they mean for any player who got that far to be able to appeal to a divine power they might not even have heard of? Does the French translation say you must know about her to be able to call on her?

[thealmightymudworm]

hynreck:
_________________________________________
I'll check my French edition for the answers and will come back to you about it.

For the original, though, I think they did fail making it clear. First time I came across the options, I had no clue what to do. I tried to recall what I read in the library and wondered if it counted as legitimate or not. I wondered if the author meant I could just do it like that...

My first thought was: No, there is no way I'm supposed to know that. I'm a stranger in their lands, how could I? So I looked at the option where you think maybe you're good enough to take on all three on your own, knowing I would die. (pretty cool death by the way)

Then I went back and told myself, screw the author, they didn't make it clear, so take that. And I called on the only one I remembered, which was the all-mother, very convenient indeed.

But I felt like a cheat, of course.

Well a bigger one than usual!


Speak in extremes, it will save you time.

[thealmightymudworm]

hynreck:
_________________________________________
Okay, I checked, and it's exactly the same in French. They ask you to take a note of it, then forget about it. Out of the blue you are ask about who you want to call.


Speak in extremes, it will save you time.

[thealmightymudworm]

kieran:
_________________________________________

hynreck said:

Now I think there was a book or series that used materials from Orb and it's denizens, some of you guys will fill me in, but I don't know about those, never read those. So in the end the book feels unfinished. You meet a lot of interesting characters, get involved in elaborate set-pieces, learn about fairly detailed background informations that are never fully used or used at all.

That's actually what I like most about this book - it makes Orb seem more real and rich and adds to the fact that you're someone just passing through this world.

[thealmightymudworm]

vastariner:
_________________________________________
Lord Min is Mark Smith.  Tyutchev and Cassandra were player-characters of Jamie Thomson IIRC.

[thealmightymudworm]

hynreck:
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Thanks guys, knew you were invaluable source of info!

Kieran, just in case: I don't hate the fact that there's load of info, I like it in fact (felt at times closer to Lone Wolf... and I'm a big fan) but it still makes the book feels unfinished regarding some characters' implications in the story. Like I wrote, I'm torn with Talisman. Some stuff's great, others are... puzzling.


Speak in extremes, it will save you time.

[thealmightymudworm]

oakdweller:
_________________________________________
My reviews of the first ten books have come in a fairly rapid stream, as I wrote them whilst my membership was still pending. (So all I needed to do was proofread/edit them before posting). From this point on I'm writing the reviews as I go, so they will probably come in fits and starts from now on, whilst real life stuff such as work, family, other leisure pursuits jostle for my attention. There are also many books that I haven't played for ages, so I need to replay first to review them properly. I will at the very least be able to review books #11 - #13 this bank holiday weekend.
 
Oh, and I've just realised that I should've given a warning that my reviews may (and probably will) contain spoilers. Most people on this site have probably read most of the early and republished books anyway, but - just to avoid ruining even one person's fun - here's a...
 
***SPOILER ALERT!***
 
It took me quite a while to get involved with Talisman of Death as a child. I think that the fact that I wasn't overly enamoured with Bob Harvey's illustrations played a large part in distracting me from the sparkle of the text. (I enjoy his work a lot more now though).
 
This is the first book that I've had to replay to refresh my memory of it. It didn't take long before it all came flooding back, especially when I visited the Red Dragon tavern. Tyutchev and Cassandra are great arrogant, bullying villains, made all the better by encountering them three times in different circumstances and locations. The humour within the text is also more apparent in this one, especially the insult that you can give to the barman on paragraph 11, "You fat pig, pour me a drink before the sight of your squalid pus-ridden face makes me vomit". I wonder whether or not Jamie Thomson has been tempted to use this line in real life... Another bit which made me titter was the faux pas of offering the Hogmen dried pork.
 
I really enjoyed the structure of the game, sending you to a variety of locations before you reach the portal. The section in the town is by far the largest and manages to avoid coming across as a City of Thieves mini-clone, despite the involvement of a Thieves Guild. You are not punished too severely for exploring the town as you wish, leaving just a few minor traps here and there. (I particularly loved the weird red book that you can find in Greyguilds which is "bound in multi-coloured scales". I'm a sucker for bizarre - or even just slightly quirky - artifacts in fantasy settings). I've played this book three times to prepare for this review (the first two times I died in combat...) and was pleased with the way that each time I entered the town I was presented with different scenarios which didn't make me feel that I was straying from "the one true path". On my first visit I helped some thieves rob a jewellers, which was an unexpectedly 'naughty' thing for a traditional FF hero to do. On my second visit I didn't even get to meet the thieves until later as I was taken straight to Hawkana after pretending to be deaf and dumb (great option that!) On my third visit I was not expecting that much variation, but I encountered a skeletal minion with a rapier, an homage to The Island of Doctor Moreau and a sage who asks me to show him a jade rose (another beautifully quirky object) if I want to have dinner with him. All of these encounters were totally different from my previous two attempts. I'm not sure whether or not all three of these paths can lead to victory, but looking at my partial map it certainly seems so.


Contrary to expectation, you start off with the 'big prize' of the adventure, unlike previous books where you have to find it/them and charge on to the end. Even more unexpected is - and I did give a spoiler warning remember... - losing the Talisman as an unavoidable(?) part of the quest. Forging an uneasy alliance with the Thieves Guild to reclaim it adds spice to an already enjoyable romp.

The only complaint I have is that there are too many high-skilled essential fights. It must be very difficult indeed to complete the book with a SKILL score of less than 11. This is the only book that I can think of which provides you with ten provisions at the start where I have actually run out. However, I can usually forgive a FF book for having a few hard - or even ultra-hard - encounters if it is innovative and manages to draw me in with interesting encounters and believable worlds. In this case, forgiveness is given.

[thealmightymudworm]

hs5ias
_________________________________________
This book draws on the Advanced Dungeons & Dragons game and its setting of the World of Greyhawk for inspiration. This gives Orb a rather different feel to the Titan books.

[thealmightymudworm]

vagsancho:
_________________________________________
(The next opinion is based on the fact that the 3 temples are all visited and that we test the power of the talisman after being persecuted by the 6 spectres of Death):


This book is simply fantastic! Awesome background. Very good ending. Fantastic presence of the influence of the gods. the feeling of visiting the 3 temples (Mother-of-all; the fearfull Kyrinla, and the temple of Death) is something special. The possible conection of our real world with the world of Orb is brilliant. A masterpiece from Mark Smith and Jamie Thomson. This book is probably in my Top 5!


Razaak's apprentice

[thealmightymudworm]

vagsancho:
_________________________________________
There is a flaw in this amazing book. In the very last end, after defeating the Red Dragon, appears the Portal - The only way to save the world from Death Goddess. 


But we should have been given a choice: To enter the Portal; or to throw the Talisman throw the Portal and remain in that strange world for which we were kidnapped.


Razaak's apprentice

[thealmightymudworm]

vagsancho:
_________________________________________
Those two Gods in the beginning were somehow familiar. I think that wasn't the first time i've seen them.


Razaak's apprentice

[a moderator]

My TUFFF playthrough:

Some FF fans prefer to disregard the references to Earth in the Background section and make out that the hero of this adventure comes from Titan. One of the parts without giants, dragons, demons, warlocks or sorcerers, presumably, as the Background points out that, unlike your home, Orb houses all such beings.

If I were in a contrary mood, I'd create the potential for a continuity error at the beginning: if I get resurrectably killed in the city, I will get sent back to just before I was transported out of the Rift, my stats all restored to their Initial levels, but it is possible to lose a little Stamina and Luck prior to that moment. I shan't do so, though, because I intend to avoid even the temporary deaths, and that Stamina and Luck could prove crucial at some point.

So, wait like a Duel Master player, get great chunks of exposition from the doomed adventurers. I have to wonder why my employers chose to send me into the Rift, rather than let the party teleport out one of their number and have me hook up with that survivor above ground, so I'd have a companion with some knowledge of the region, and we'd be able to cover each other's backs. Unless they're all so tediously noble and self-sacrificing that they'd have just stood around saying, "No, I insist, you get away!" until they'd all been eaten.

Anyway, I get the Talisman and the 'Get out of the Rift free' card, and for the third time in a very brief period I find myself somewhere I wasn't a moment ago. Making the wise decision of heading for the forest, I rapidly get out of sight of potential pursuers. An encounter with a She-Wolf and a Druid ends amicably, and I evade a dozing Basilisk with ease. The next incident is a little more peculiar, as I don't recall any version of Beowulf in which Grendel is part old woman, part squid. It's not a necessary fight, but I got into it anyway to remind myself of how the unlikely beast is described.

Next up I meet more warrior-women, and if I want to retain my weapon (stop sniggering, you at the back) I shall have to fool them. The whole business of pretending to be a survivor from an ambushed caravan gets a bit silly: two of the places I can claim to be from got momentary name-checks while the adventurers told me about their quest, so I'd need to have a mighty good memory to have any real chance of remembering them. The other is suggested by the Captain as a trick question, as if it's an everyday occurrence to encounter armed warriors with no local geographical knowledge whatsoever wandering around on the moor. I mean, do the Police in Essex regularly ask suspicious characters if they've just strolled across from Plymouth? Mind you, the un-PC alternative of pretending to be deaf and dumb has its own odd aspect - what kind of reasoning leads the patrol to conclude, "Well, if this adventurer could talk and hear us, we'd have to disarm him, but as he can't, he might as well keep his sword,"?

Anyway, I trick them and get a lift to Greyguilds-on-the-Moor, where I have to choose between two what-it-says-on-the-tin streets. I pick Store Street, as I like to browse around the charity shops in a new town. I've got a number of gamebook bargains that way. Nowhere seems to have any cheap copies of Magehunter, but a bit of name-dropping gets me a very reasonable offer on magical chainmail and safe passage out of the city (offer only valid certain days).

All of a sudden a skeletal entity starts hassling me about the Talisman, claiming that it's stolen goods, or some such nonsense. Death evidently has a very efficient bureaucracy, as my name is printed on the relevant forms (well, coffin). Nevertheless, I'm not going to go handing the Talisman over to some undead functionary just because he claims it's his. What if he were a con artist, and the real Death turned up asking for it later. It'd just be so embarrassing. Anyway, I forcefully express my reluctance to hand it over without some trustworthy proof of ownership, and head off to the library in case they have any withdrawn stock on sale. That's how I got my copy of The Buccaneers of Shadaki. No luck on that front, but I do find out a fair bit about the locality from a set of scrolls that'll probably be adapted into an award-winning drama when Orb develops TV.

By now the librarians are doing that throat-clearing thing, so I head back out and, owing to the lack of adequate street lights, tread in something a good deal nastier than dog dirt. Death's bailiffs turn up, demanding the Talisman, but then another bunch of warrior-women turns up, and they confiscate it for being liable to cause an affray, then head back to the station, leaving me stuck in a man-trap.

Enter one convenient friendly local who releases me, offers free bed and board, and provides some handy advice when I explain that I have to steal an incredibly valuable item from the local law enforcement agency on account of a promise I made to a bunch of complete strangers.

Next morning I bypass an opportunity to be as rude as the editors would let Smith & Thomson get away with, and enter a local hostelry with a view to seeking the services of some Legitimate Businessmen. Buying a drink with money I'm sure it's possible to have lost before getting this far into the book, I introduce myself to a suitably shifty-looking bunch and discreetly enquire about obtaining the assistance of individuals less disreputable than the local Conservative Association. I impress them enough that they tell me about the non-booby-trapped entrance, and then in breeze the authors' favourite NPCs. I slink away because I've read The Coils of Hate and recognise that carelessly killing off one of its more prominent characters several years too soon will only make it worse.

Except that Tyutchev's a touchy so-and-so, and takes offence at my attempt to leave him to harass innocent Ninjas in his own time. The subsequent fight is a little sloppily handled, as it's sort of implied that I'm supposed to hit Cassandra until she goes away and then turn my attention to Mister Probably-Only-Carries-A-Bastard-Sword-So-He-Can-Pretend-He-Thinks-He's-Being-Insulted-And-Start-A-Fight-Any-Time-Someone-Mentions-It, but there's nothing to indicate that I can't ignore her and just hack away at Tyutchev until his Stamina drops low enough for the authors to bail him out. Which is what I do. He goes crying to his god, who unsportingly intervenes with an earthquake rather than scorning him as a pathetic wuss who deserves to get his teeth kicked in for picking a fight with someone too tough for him.

Heading back to my new friend's pad, I get offered a bit of easy cash by characters from Shakespeare and H.G.Wells, and I accept because I know that the actual payment is going to be something more useful than more cash. Just don't tell the Orb branch of PETA about my involvement in animal experiments, okay? Further sloppiness ensues when it comes to dinner with mine host. Anyone who's lied about having an invitation isn't going to be deterred by the book asking 'do you have proof of the invitation?' when they don't have to recall a numerical inscription or convert a name into numbers, but can simply lie again.

Another night's rest, and before attending my appointment I accept an invitation to drink sherry with the doesn't-sound-remotely-dodgy Mortphilio. Un-unexpectedly, he turns out to be another of Death's cronies, and sets his creepy undead pet on me. When that fails, he ingeniously animates the dead from whose bones his home is constructed, and less ingeniously allows me to escape. Escape to the local headquarters of his boss, no less, where I watch the summoning of a bunch of Tolkien's leftovers to seek me, and they promptly fail to notice that I'm right there in the temple with them. This bunch couldn't organise a dig-up in a cemetery. Pilfering a magical helmet of quick-thinking (which they probably use when they need one of their number to rise to sub-moron level), I resume my interrupted journey, cunningly tell Fat Tony and his boys the truth, and the heist is on.

Back in the mid-eighties, Talisman of Death was singled out for criticism by overreacting Evangelicals for its gruesome disembowellings and depiction of Black Mass-esque rites. Completely missing the really dubious part: during the robbery, it best serves your interests to acquiesce to cold-blooded murder. Sure, you lose 1 Luck for letting Lord Min slit the old servant's throat, but the alternative involves a fight and a Test your Luck, so you wind up 1 Luck down anyway, and risk failure or having to repeat a chunk of the adventure besides. All right, so I doubt that anyone who's read ToD progressed to slicing open people's gullets in real life, and if they did, it's going to be the consequence of far more complex issues than 'they read about it in a gamebook and WENT OUT AND DID IT FOR REAL!' but I do still feel a little uncomfortable about this incident. So I choose the more complicated route, and only kill in self-defence.

Not that Hawkana appreciates my restraint, and after getting badly singed I retaliate with the Spell of Agonizing Doom that the mad scientists gave me in lieu of payment. It's not lethal enough, though, and the dice are not as kind to me against her as against the superior opponent I defeated in House of Hell. I never managed to win an Attack Round before my Stamina ran out. Should have scoffed more Provisions before setting off.

[cyranotheswordfish]

I have to admit that my revisit to #11 - Talisman of Death left me somewhat cold. It was only the second Fighting Fantasy gamebook that I ever read and always seemed to epitomise how I felt a gamebook should be - simple but reasonably heroic premise, a consistent feel, but with a good smattering of slightly more exotic encounters and detailed, but not too stylised, writing. I guess my tastes have changed with regards to the final point, as I never really managed to connect with the book this time through - I now seem to prefer books that offer a deeper atmosphere or a more unique experience.

By the way, I'm no longer playing through the books with whatever character fate gives me - I'll re-roll the dice until I get a proper hero! I did at first wonder if the greater ease provided by the system was marring my enjoyment, but playing through some books after this one showed this not to be the case (I'm working through a small backlog of review-playthrough-reflections at the moment.)

Anyway, I didn't find my playthrough actually unenjoyable - I particularly liked raiding the temple of Fell-Kyrinla with the thieves' guild and the temple containing the Dragonsbane spear was interesting, if brief, to explore. Sadly, though, the rest of the book felt a bit like just going through the (admittedly inherently quite enjoyable) motions.

I completed it on my first try, thanks to my refusal to start without a strong character and the book sending me back to a 'save-point', rahter than killing me off, when I thought I'd try leaving the city the wrong way. Regarding the checkpoint system, are there any instructions anywhere that tell you to turn to paragraph x if you die in combat? I've not seen any, though I can be rather unobservant sometimes, and it seems a bit odd to me that if, say, the Dragon at the end kills you with it's fiery breath because you missed a certain item, you get a second chance but if it kills you in regular combat, which, depending on your stats, could be pretty likely, that's it.

Anyway, the random number generator told me to do 29 - Midnight Rogue afterwards - still doing alright from it, though I've now learnt to expect disappointment where I didn't see it coming.                                         

                       

[vagsancho]

Magic Book. I almost can feel it coming to me after this life.

[vagsancho]

Very powerfull and rich book. I feel it very deeply in my soul. I have a feeling that i am still going to meet those gods.

[vagsancho]

Somewhere nearby, someone invented the criterium "replayability" to classify the Fighting Fantasy Gamebooks. I did never identify myself with that criterium. For me all books are 100% replayable. Having said that, i played Talisman of Death for the first time more than 20 years ago... and i loved it.. but this is probably the unique book that every single time i play it i like it more.

[marblefigure]

I had a huge crush on Lillantha when first playing this. Pity her chainmail was useless, because of the chronic ineptitude of Fighting Fantasy editors. I wasn't remotely interested in Hawkana or Cassandra. That shows good taste in Fighting Fantasy NPC ladies, I should think.

Crushing on NPCs is possible with Talisman of Death, because even the minor NPCs are unusually well written and memorable by Fighting Fantasy standards.

[johnbrawn1972]

On a certain river there is a copy for an entirely reasonable £4,000.

[splendid]

So, as I mentioned elsewhere, I've been implementing this book in the Twine format, largely for my own amusement. It turns out implementing FF books actually poses some technical challenges which are interesting to resolve in Twine/Harlowe, but this is not a computer programming forum so I won't go on about those now. The book itself though contains some interesting issues which I have made / need to make decisions on.  Be warned, this involves some absolutely mind-rotting levels of pedantry for which I can only apologise in advance.

First, the issues from Titannica at fightingfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Talisman_of_Death_(book)

• In (6) you are told to note down the specific words used to invoke a god's help, but when the opportunity to do so arises there is no indication that any foreknowledge is necessary.
  

This is a good point.  I can add a check at this point which just displays "Nothing happens" if the right words aren't known, but see below for a possible snag.

• (362) should presumably read "number rolled" instead of "Attack Strength" since the latter can never be below 10.

I picked up on this and made the change; an Attack Strength of 18 is equivalent.

• In (109), should you restore the gold which you did not have when you "began the adventure" but did get before you reached that point in time?
  

I'm assuming the intention is to revert to 10 gold, as the text suggests this is about "travel through time."  A larger question to me is, should knowledge-based checks still hold?  For example, if the player learned the incantation words to invoke the god in their first incarnation, would they still know them in the next?  As written, I'd expect they maintain this information across the time-jump, and so can successfully call upon the god.  Randomly coming out with the druid's correct name when meeting the priestess is another similar one.  See also the next point:

• (273) is odd since it seems to assume that readers might lie about having received an invitation but not about owning an item.
  

Yes.  There is no opportunity to lose the Sage's token between obtaining it and needing it, so these pages are effectively unreachable... unless the player is invited in an earlier incarnation, but not in the current one.  I actually hadn't considered this possibility until now.  So: they are invited by the Sage, may or may not go, but later die and restart at the Rift. This time they take a different path, don't receive the invite, but choose to visit the Sage anyway.  The player has not lied about receiving an invitation, but does not have the required token.  Is this cleverness on the part of the authors, or a lucky accident?  I feel it's the former. 

• In (370), what is it that the thieves know that they don't in (276) or (333)?

Not necessarily an error, more a peculiarity.  I've left it as-is.

• In (366) you are robbed of an item you may not have.

Mm.  I'm having it so the item is actually retained at the time you might assume you lose it.  (You just lose a finger.)  It doesn't quite jibe with (16): "If you still have Hawkana's ring..." but that's no big deal I think.

• Willow Weird's stamina is different in (319) and (36).

Yes, that is strange - but not disastrous.  It means that in (36) it is possible to defeat the Willow Weird outright before the "four successful attacks" end-condition is reached, but doing so doesn't particularly break the narrative flow.  I've left it as-written.

Now some other issues I've come across, not all of which I have a satisfactory solution for.

• The reincarnation page (109) sends the player back to (125).  For narrative correctness, the destination should actually be (185). I've made it so.
  
  
• Equipment list mentions five torches, a tinder and flint, and advises the player to "guard them with your life."  They appear to serve no in-game purpose, but correct me if I'm wrong
  
  
• Equipment list includes (optionally) a potion of skill.  It's possible to lose your sword (-2 SKILL) then drink the potion (restore to INITIAL SKILL)... and then obtain various +1 SKILL items and/or a +3 sword (but with no effect due to the Initial SKILL cap).
  
  • ...As has been discussed elsewhere, SKILL stat changes are often quite poorly thought through. I'm looking for a solution in keeping with the spirit and intention of the gamebook, rather than strict rule-abidance.
  • Not quite sure yet, but I'm leaning towards removing the "Initial Skill" cap altogether; this would likely make the fight with Hawkana less brutal for minimum-stat players, which isn't such a bad thing.  She's tough to beat even with the Scroll of Agonizing Doom.
    
    
• (167) has a three-way fight with a somewhat specific end condition.  It's possible to complete the fight and kill everyone without meeting the end condition; the book breaks at this point.
  
  • I could add a mechanic to remove Scarface from the fight if his stamina drops to 4 or less...
  • ...but I'll probably leave it as-written, and display an Easter Egg and resume play if the book-breaking condition is reached.

I think there are others that I can't remember right now, and implementation is not complete; I've still got about a quarter of the book to go, I think.

[terrysalt]

To my mind, the knowledge should be retained for sure. I can't think of any reason why you'd suddenly forget someone's name or the words to an incantation.

[splendid]

Nov 30, 2021 13:14:30 GMT splendid said:

• ...As has been discussed elsewhere, SKILL stat changes are often quite poorly thought through. I'm looking for a solution in keeping with the spirit and intention of the gamebook, rather than strict rule-abidance.
• Not quite sure yet, but I'm leaning towards removing the "Initial Skill" cap altogether; this would likely make the fight with Hawkana less brutal for minimum-stat players, which isn't such a bad thing.  She's tough to beat even with the Scroll of Agonizing Doom.

Removing the skill cap altogether seems to make things too easy for players with a strong starting roll.  An absolute skill cap of 12 might make more sense, allowing low-level players to max out their skill ahead of Hawkana, but not providing high-level players with much additional benefit.

[aeris2001x2]

I don't love this book like others do, though it has some amazing set pieces like the fight against Hawkana. And Cassandra is awesome!

[CharlesX]

May 1, 2023 7:27:28 GMT aeris2001x2 said:

I don't love this book like others do, though it has some amazing set pieces like the fight against Hawkana. And Cassandra is awesome!

In my least-favourite FF book poll Talisman Of Death scraped top half (yes, found a way to shoehorn that in) so not everyone must like it (good rationalizing, as well).

   I would say Talisman Of Death has a wonderful atmosphere but it isn't long or adventurous enough. I think a lot of people like it just because it is comparatively forgiving, but it arguably lacks the scope and depth of the very best gamebooks. On the flipside, I agree it has several very memorable encounters, and emphasizes the world it creates more than very mechanical things such as dice-rolling and book-keeping.

[a moderator]

It wouldn't surprise me if some of the votes against Talisman were because it's not set on Titan.

[Pete Byrdie]

May 1, 2023 13:32:38 GMT CharlesX said:

May 1, 2023 7:27:28 GMT aeris2001x2 said:

I don't love this book like others do, though it has some amazing set pieces like the fight against Hawkana. And Cassandra is awesome!

In my least-favourite FF book poll Talisman Of Death scraped top half (yes, found a way to shoehorn that in) so not everyone must like it (good rationalizing, as well).

   I would say Talisman Of Death has a wonderful atmosphere but it isn't long or adventurous enough. I think a lot of people like it just because it is comparatively forgiving, but it arguably lacks the scope and depth of the very best gamebooks. On the flipside, I agree it has several very memorable encounters, and emphasizes the world it creates more than very mechanical things such as dice-rolling and book-keeping.

I remember really loving this book.

Here's a barely thought out notion that's just occurred to me and I've decided to commit to the Internet to be pounded to dust by brighter people.

Gamebooks are especially suited to dungeon crawl type scenarios, meandering through separate locations barely connected by the acquisition and use of objects and information. The more story and structure you try to insert, the harder the gamebook is to write. What I remembered about Talisman was a real sense of story, even something of a three act structure, and more of a filled out world than many previous books. I loved it for that, but it probably makes for a shorter overall adventure with plot based bottlenecks, that restrict free roaming. I can see that wouldn't appeal to everyone.

I haven't read Talisman for over twenty years and this thought just occurred while I was reading the above quoted post, so I'll leave you all to titter behind your hands and condescendingly explain why I'm wrong, which I'll no doubt deserve.

[Wizard Slayer]

May 2, 2023 2:29:29 GMT a moderator said:

It wouldn't surprise me if some of the votes against Talisman were because it's not set on Titan.

I find this idea very interesting. Talisman is one of my favourite gamebooks for a number of reasons such as the artwork, the fascinatingly gory deaths and dark encounters, and the way it felt like a world much bigger than the book itself. For instance the encounters with Tyutchev and Cassandra: it was surprising to discover that you couldn't kill them and Talisman really gave off that sense of them having these whole other lives outside of the story and that you were just incidental to them, unlike almost every other character you encounter in other gamebooks.

And another reason is probably sentimental, because it was the first gamebook I bought. Which is what makes the above idea so interesting to me, because I got into Fighting Fantasy when this book was out, then bought House of Hell and then every new book from Space Assassin onwards (while gradually filling in 1-9 - Caverns of the Snow Witch was nearly one of my last books!) From Books 10 to 22 only five take place on Titan, and only two are set in Allansia. It wasn't until I got the 1989 edition of Titan that I even realised that Allansia was meant to be the 'central' setting for the series (not helped by later books tending to be more often set in Khul).

So for me there's never been that feeling that Titan = Fighting Fantasy = Titan that maybe a lot of people have.