63) Stormslayer

[johnbrawn1972]

Aug 17, 2017 16:38:21 GMT sylas said:

Yes. But as I said, my solution goes for all the AS bonus items instead of the armours. After you throw the Dreadnought at it, you can still use the deactivate method for an easier fight. I found causing more damage hurts you more overall but I can't guarantee it's a better way to go.

I do not know every reference here but I thought the only significant boost was the +1 to initial luck on completing 3 or 4 quests.

What other boosts are there?

[sylas]

I found the Potion of Giant Strength more useful than the Potion of Water Breathing.

[johnbrawn1972]

Aug 25, 2017 0:03:33 GMT sylas said:

I found the Potion of Giant Strength more useful than the Potion of Water Breathing.

This is becoming a Socratic discourse.

It is powerful as you suggest. The only problem I have is the 13gp acquired are then spent on the Potion Of Underwater Breathing 7gp or Prospero Seacharmer 10gp. This renders this route almost a waste of time? Spending on those two items is necessary as far as I can tell so that is why I choose the Water option.

[johnbrawn1972]

I have been hard at work on a new solution to be posted in a day or so. It is a 7-14-7 solution with a very small chance of success especially at the beginning. I have been parsimonious with the possible dice rolls for gold so it is minimum gold all the way. My guess is it has only about a 10% chance of success. There are rolls at the beginning where it is a case of start again. There are many variables. It is hard to juggle them all. The end is annoying where it is either the Air Elemental, Pegasus or parachute. The opening is really only there for the spark of life and the parachute. I am still torn. The Human Torch is sk10 st9. Headache. The other headache is how to kill the Juggernaut. You either need the Automaton or a reasonable skill to be able to deactivate it. The Potion of Giant Strength seems the obvious choice here. The leaves Balthazar Sturm where you can drink a Potion of Levitation and change to the Warhammer to avoid the extra damage. My character is still at a massive attack strength deficit but has the Breastplate and Chainmail Armour for damage reduction. The other thing is to use 2 luck so hopefully you can kill it in 3 attack rounds before you run out of stamina. Headache. The solution goes to the opening area then for the free Potion. The order of the areas is The Witchtooth Line, The Howling Plains, Mount Pyre but detour to The Eelsea and then Mount Pyre. The result is not being able to buy armour early on so the first half is somewhat perilous. In fact I 'waste' 5gp on the +1 attack strength cider otherwise The Witchtooth Line is utterly forbidding. I am still torn between not doing any of the opening area but going straight for the potion. This would mean not causing any damage but using the Potion of Giant Strength against the full strength Juggernaut then fighting the Human Torch(would the armour be enough?)Finally using the Air Elemental to escape. Headache.

[sylas]

I think realistically, minimum stats and gold is a no no for sure.

[johnbrawn1972]

Mar 13, 2018 21:52:18 GMT sylas said:

I think realistically, minimum stats and gold is a no no for sure.

I must admit I now think the chance with my new system is only 1% rather than 10%. The beginning is very difficult. The only thing I could think to do was avoid the 12 rounds or less fight and try to hide. This requires a 41%(?) luck roll. Even the first fight is difficult. There are many difficult fights in the first phase. Acquiring armour so late in the game is not ideal but this makes the ending alright if you can reach the latter stages.

The only other thing to do is avoid the beginning completely so no spark of life or unusual backpack. This makes things much easier. The problem is the Juggernaut where you are at a -2 attack strength disadvantage but the 2 round instant win is not too implausible with the help of armour. The other problem is how to avoid losing at the end. The only way is to use the Air Elemental but this means fighting a sk10 with your sk7 which is hard even with armour. Ideally it is a case of using 2 luck against Balthazar Sturm when you really want to use luck against both so this is hard as well. This has me thinking?

I really need to know the odds of the multiple fairly even fights at the beginning against fighting the Juggernaut at a -2 disadvantage but with armour and then fighting a sk10 but with armour. I do not know how to balance this? At times like these Champskees with his 'concept' analysis would come in handy.

The other option is to go to Mount Pyre first so you can acquire the Breastplate. This does help a lot but is it sufficient to beat the ambush? I do not know. Also the ambush at Eelsea is very difficult. Is the armour enough? Headache.

[johnbrawn1972]

I think I will do a Potion only beginning as an alternative with the -2 attack strength, sk10 and Air Elemental escape. This makes the beginning much easier but the end much harder.

I might also do a solution with a Potion only beginning but Mount Pyre as the primary so you can buy the Breastplate and a Potion of Strength. From memory this might mean only 8gp for the Chainmail Armour at Eelsea. No Potion of Giant Strength. Headache.

[johnbrawn1972]

I am not going to go into some kind of Hegelian dialectic but I feel my solution is on the right lines. The only thing I might do is the damage route with the risky 3d6 stamina roll. The problem is the -1 skill possibility. Not solved. Headache.

Is there a way to reach 8 damage without the 3d6 stamina roll? I am not sure there is. My old solutions were 5+3 and Champskees is 7+3. No way to achieve this? There is something risky with a test your luck roll but I cannot remember if that is a dead end from memory.

I really need to know what the chances are with the Breastplate and Chainmail Armour against a sk10 and then another sk10. Pretty hairy as they would have said in Vietnam.

I have found an obscure reference where you are hit by arrows and there is a list of items that are cumulative in reducing the amount of arrows that hit you. The list includes both the Breastplate and Chainmail Armour so this strongly implies there is no 'contradiction' in having both items.

[johnbrawn1972]

I feel I am nearly there with a new idea to take The Potion of Giant Strength at the beginning and then use the Breathing Helmet but only to collect the gold. I have not fine tuned this yet. It allows the extra Potion to be used against a skill 10 opponent but it does create a further skill 9 opponent but a -2 attack strength disadvantage is acceptable with the armour. I really need some mathematics for this one.

I have been trying a Mount Pyre first solution but there are some major problems. The early ambushes are quite tough and you have limited gold with Mount Pyre and Eelsea being first and second. The Healing Elixir does allow for the slightly risky -3d6 stamina roll as per Champskees solution. The ending is tough as there is no possibility of acquiring a Potion of Giant Strength other than by the Breathing Helmet route as referenced above. This creates another skill 9 opponent as above. The other possibility here is either to have a lot of Provisions and a Potion of Strength or buy a Wyrmskin Cloak to be maximally armoured. The rolls would be 2/3, 1/2 and 1/3 to reduce damage.

[johnbrawn1972]

The Breathing Helmet is too risky because of the -1 skill penalty which makes Eelsea decidedly deadly.

I think the current model is about right but the ending is hard. I cannot decide where to use the 2 luck rolls. The odd stamina skill 10 seems most plausible but even then I am not sure. The only thing I am sure about is if you defeat Balthazar Sturm with only 1 stamina point remaining it does not matter therefore defeating the earlier skill 10 as fast as possible makes more sense so you are likely to have a higher stamina essential for the final encounter. The only thing I can think is to split the luck between them but a 7 and 8 luck roll is hardly a given.

The Mount Pyre first system is still open but the equipment possibilities are realised almost immediately before you can acquire any more gold. This does have the advantage of acquiring the Breastplate very early on rendering Mount Pyre and Eelsea much more survivable. The problem is no Potion of Giant Strength unless you choose the Breathing Helmet but the armour should be enough. The end is still utterly forbidding especially with the extra skill 9 opponent.

Maybe Sylas is right and I am chasing an impossibility but I had to try.

[johnbrawn1972]

I now have a new system for Stormslayer which tries to achieve the impossible namely find a route for 7-14-7 with minimal gold.

This does require more than a few lucky rolls but the percentage is about 10% as a guess so it is plausible at least prima facie.

The beginning does acquire the Breastplate but it is still tough with the ambush. Likewise the beginning of Eelsea is tough but you do acquire the Chainmail Armour for maximum protection. This makes Eelsea plausible even with the -1 skill Breathing Helmet. Hopefully the provisions and Potion of Strength acquired at Eelsea should see you through to the end. To beat the Juggernaut I realised you really need 10 damage with minimal attributes otherwise it is lethal. This means passing a luck roll with 8 luck(shades of The Seven Serpents)and then passing the 3d6 stamina roll with 14 stamina(with Healing Elixir). The Human Torch is less lethal with the Potion of Giant Strength especially seeing as you only need to reduce it to 3 stamina. You need to win 2 attack rounds. Finally there is Balthazar Sturm where you are effectively fighting at a -3 attack strength disadvantage plus only 12 stamina. The main factor here is the use of luck where ideally you have 8 luck at this point so you can use 2 luck with the mathematical odds on your side. This means you only need to win 2 attack rounds. Again the armour comes into play to give you enough chances. Even with a single +4 damage it is 10-4=6-2-2 so only 3 attack rounds.

This is still not totally improbable but I am not sure of the percentages.

[johnbrawn1972]

I will reply to Sylas here so as to not clutter up the solutions board.

I am not sure I really disagree with anything Sylas says in his reply on the solutions board. The fight at the beginning is 45/55 if I remember the statistics on here. Not too difficult. There are two difficult ambushes to overcome and I realize these are very difficult as well. The Breastplate should extend the number of attack rounds in both of the ambushes.

The Breastplate and Chainmail Armour are my trump cards. Also buying extra provisions and a Potion Of Strength which hopefully will see you through to the end. I am not sure of the odds of winning two consecutive rounds against the Juggernaut when at a -2 attack strength disadvantage. The Potion of Giant Strength means you only need to win two attack rounds to beat the Human Torch. Again if you use 2 luck successfully you only need to win 2 attack rounds against Balthazar Sturm. The idea here is the extended number of attack rounds means you can win by probability.

I do not know the numbers but I fear I have created a Crypt level system as Sylas implies.

[johnbrawn1972]

After what Sylas helpfully said(couldn't he have said something not pertinent then I could have ignored it) I am hard at work on three different solutions for 7/14/7 with 14gp. I fear I am trying to pour a quart into a pint pot but three routes seems vaguely plausible. First Mount Pyre/Eelsea/Witchtooth Line/Howling Plains. Second Eelsea/Mount Pyre/Witchtooth Line/Howling Plains. Finally Witchtooth Line/Howling Plains/Mount Pyre to Eelsea/Mount Pyre. The major problems are trying to acquire enough armour and firepower to have a chance at endgame while being able to survive the earlier sections. The problems I am having seem to revolve around trying to acquire enough gold on my niggardly standard while not being pulverized in the act of acquisition(I am beginning to sound like Quark)

One of my new strategies is to try different artifacts. Sometimes I have rejected the Hunting Horn and allowed myself to be vacuumed up to paragraph 14. This only has a -1 luck penalty and -1d6+2 damage but there are no Stormdrake options.

Most of my systems create huge pressure on your provisions.

I still have not solved either much easier beginnings where survival is likely but you arrive at endgame with no Potions of Giant Strength or perhaps only 1 luck to use against Balthazar Sturm or beginnings which are fiendishly difficult where you are relying on the Breastplate to extend your stamina to be able to best multiple opponents.

I think I will post all three in the near future and people can make up their own minds. More mathematics than I can muster will come into play via Champskees.

[johnbrawn1972]

After Sylas said the first fight was too tough I have made two of the three solutions include the Sun Talisman which gives you the best possible chance with 7/14/7. The other solution had too many competing priorities. Mount Pyre is too difficult without the Dragon Tattoo and the Sabretooth Fang has two uses namely to makes the skill roll that much more probable and to evade entirely the rather punishing cavalcade of arrows. Also you do not have to make a luck roll with 7 luck and you do not lose a luck point from the roll itself.

The probabilities are still somewhat hairy to say the least. If you can make it to the endgame with both the Breastplate and Chainmail Armour this should allow many more attack rounds. One of the solutions opts for the Chainmail Armour and the Wyrmskin Cloak but you could substitute 8 provisions and a Potion of Strength(or Skill?) I had to try the impossible.

[johnbrawn1972]

I have reduced my attempts at the impossible to just two solutions. Nevertheless it is impossible. Either the beginnings are impossible or the ends are near impossible unless the armour can extend the attack rounds to around thirty and I believe that statistically is unlikely.

After checking the 'force multiplying effects' of being at an attack strength disadvantage of only 2 or 3 difference I did not realise just how difficult it becomes. The probabilities eat you alive.

You either need high attributes and low gold or a lot of gold(Breastplate, Chainmail Armour, Wyrmskin Cloak, Potion of Giant Strength, Potion of Strength and Prospero Seacharmer) and low attributes.

Pushing the limits is impossible but maybe Champskees or I could try something a little less self-flagellating and generate two intermediate solutions?

[johnbrawn1972]

One last post on the subject. I have found the most basic fighting calculator to try to simulate the last three very difficult encounters. I am not sure how many extra attack rounds the Breastplate and Chainmail Armour will generate for you but that seems to be the key. It is a question of probability where enough attack rounds mean you can win by attrition. Strictly it is a sk9 sk10 then strictly a sk10 st6 then finally sk10 st8(use 2 luck)

On the easiest to use simulator(validity?) I tried 7/30/7 to simulate the 'extra' rounds and there is a chance but the problem has to be the close proximity of the contests. It is a shame there are no luck bonuses at end game. Nevertheless I wonder if my strongest solution has something like the same probability as Crypt maybe 1/200?

[johnbrawn1972]

One last shout out to Champskees(are you still doing the next 10 solutions updates?)about Stormslayer namely about the solution I have selected for testing. I think my solution might be fiendishly difficult at the Eelsea encvounter where you test your stamina. I think it might be better to buy the Potion of Stamina and not the Potion of Skill. I still believe it is necessary to damage the Juggernaut so it has 9 skill meaning you have a chance with armour. This means a 72% chance of passing the luck roll and a vaguely Crypt/Spellbreaker roll 1-3 to have a chance of winning. This is a bit do or die but still plausible. Nevertheless it is still Crypt territory with a 1/200 chance of winning I would guess. I am waiting(a long time?) with baited breath.

[philsadler]

May 1, 2018 17:02:58 GMT johnbrawn1972 said:

Nevertheless it is still Crypt territory with a 1/200 chance of winning I would guess. I am waiting(a long time?) with baited breath.

But Crypt is nowhere near 1/200 chance of winning with even max stats. I would guess it's more like 1/2000.

[johnbrawn1972]

May 1, 2018 17:59:32 GMT philsadler said:

May 1, 2018 17:02:58 GMT johnbrawn1972 said:

Nevertheless it is still Crypt territory with a 1/200 chance of winning I would guess. I am waiting(a long time?) with baited breath.

But Crypt is nowhere near 1/200 chance of winning with even max stats. I would guess it's more like 1/2000.

Champskees has provided some excellent probability analysis to around a dozen of the books and with 12/24/12 the probability is about 1/200 chance of success.

I believe Khaxan spent about three months trying to achieve the seemingly impossible and finally it was a case of success. I do not know how much Valium was involved.

All in all the brains and brawn(pun intended)match up so the 1/200 probability seems about right.

[champskees]

For Phil:

fightingfantazine.proboards.com/thread/106/26-crypt-sorcerer-solution

Scroll down to end of solution. Max stats is roughly .5% chance of winning. Actually the .5% is rounded up; the printout said .453%. When I release the next batch, you can click on the excel sheet to get a more precise figure (thought it would be worth doing for crypt because the odds are soo low).

Don't know when I can get around to doing it unfortunately John. Retired last year so I thought i'd have more time to allocate to hobbies but seem to be busier than ever before.

[johnbrawn1972]

I now have three systems where the possibilities must be around 1% but I have no mathematics to back this up. I need Champskees to test all three with his iterative systems so I am only guessing.

Some of the criticisms have acted like spurs so I have interpreted this as a personal imperative to test the limits.

My systems are Witchtooth Line first, Mount Pyre first and Eelsea first.

The problem is I do not have a sophisticated enough system to interpret the different types of armour which are integral to all my systems. This means I am not sure if my systems are one in a thousand or one in a hundred when it comes down to the raw data.

If Champskees can spend a little time in his retirement to test the data maybe we will find out otherwise at the rate I learn coding I will report sometime maybe 2050.

[johnbrawn1972]

Again this will be no Hegelian dialectic.

After consideration I have altered all three systems to include the Sun Talisman so the beginning is plausible. As Sylas replied otherwise the odds are strongly against you. It is the same as having armour for the entire fight.

Also I think Sylas is right to always choose the Potion of Giant Strength as this is very powerful when you have no armour.

My solution where Witchtooth Line is the first encounter means you need to survive without armour until very late. This is still difficult. I think the Chainmail Armour and Wyrmskin Cloak is the minimum necessary for the last three fights.

I have changed the Mount Pyre system to make it more plausible at the beginning. This makes it more or less necessary to pass the luck test or else you end up a pin cushion. Also you have a 58% chance to pass the later skill roll rather than a 83% chance. Again the Chainmail Armour and Wyrmskin Cloak become pivotal when trying to survive the last three encounters.

Finally there is the Eelsea first system. This has problems because there is no possibility to acquire the extra eight gold pieces as in the other systems. This means spending ten gold pieces on Prospero Seacharmer to have a chance which is difficult because you do not have enough gold pieces to buy armour. You need to reach the 3d6 stamina test with at least ten stamina which is demanding a lot. Again difficulties are compounded where the only armour you can afford is the Breastplate. Nevertheless this has to suffice. The difficulty is whether this armour is sufficient to generate enough attack rounds to beat the Juggernaut. Finally this difficulty is repeated with Balthazar Sturm.

[johnbrawn1972]

This is close to my considered position. There are now 2 Witchtooth Line solutions and 1 Mount Pyre solution. I think Eelsea is impossible because you cannot acquire the 8 gold pieces, Rope and Grapple and Potion of Levitation.

Both of the Witchtooth Line solutions now go for the Breastplate even though it makes Mount Pyre much harder as the endgame is otherwise virtually impossible. The main difference between the two solutions is the choice between the Sabretooth Fang and Hunting Horn. The Hunting Horn option means you only have a 57% chance to pass the skill roll but the later luck rolls are significantly easier plus you acquire the codeword Noollab.

[champskees]

So, would I be out of line to use a Potion of Stamina during a combat? I don't see anything saying I can't...

[johnbrawn1972]

Sept 24, 2018 11:35:01 GMT champskees said:

So, would I be out of line to use a Potion of Stamina during a combat? I don't see anything saying I can't...

If you are trying to work every angle like in Warlock I suppose this is alright but I am not sure it is in the spirit of all the books after Warlock.

[daredevil123]

Sept 24, 2018 11:35:01 GMT champskees said:

So, would I be out of line to use a Potion of Stamina during a combat? I don't see anything saying I can't...

I think it's OK. There's nothing in the book that says you can't. If you'd never played FF before and read Stormslayer, you'd assume you could use potions in combat, so I'd be inclined to interpret optimistically.

[lordomnibok]

Sept 24, 2018 15:44:38 GMT daredevil123 said:

Sept 24, 2018 11:35:01 GMT champskees said:

So, would I be out of line to use a Potion of Stamina during a combat?

I think it's OK. There's nothing in the book that says you can't. If you'd never played FF before and read Stormslayer, you'd assume you could use potions in combat, so I'd be inclined to interpret optimistically.

I agree. Get drinking Champskees.

[sylas]

Champskees: I think Green has produced an amazing piece of work here. He has dramatically improved upon Martin's 'hub' approach to gamebooks with this entry. It is actually odd that this is the only FF book that offers such flexibility with path choice. Even when offered several methods of completing an adventure, there is generally only one, maybe two paths that offer an undeniable advantage. This book really offers a fair go no matter what order you choose and I think that was Green's intention. There is no obvious route that offers complete superiority over the others. He offers multiple items/paths to overcome many of the set pieces throughout the book, but more importantly, he offers these alternatives in a balanced manner. I find this to be exceptional, for any gamebook. I do prefer Howl of the Werewolf overall, but in terms of design, this is a close 10. Although a low skill character has very little chance, it makes sense that your character would be rather skilled anyway considering his experience and accomplishments.



The improved Hub style was already done years ago, again by Keith Martin, in Night Dragon. I distinctly remember Jon Green saying in one of the old FF forums that this book pays homage to the many many works in FF through the years. The versatile Hub style does bear similarities with Night Dragon (4 important places to visit, 4 powerful items to collect etc), and both can be completed with relatively low attributes.

[tom]

Re the Potion of Giant Strength, for that one combat do people take it that +2 skill goes over your initial level? Same with Bloodbones. When you use Prospero to give you gills at the Ealsea it does state you can go over your initial skill but it doesn’t for the potion of Giant Strength.

[johnbrawn1972]

This is a continuation of the post above where I am wondering if anybody is so pathologically honest they take the +2 attack strength from Wyrmbiter but do not count the Potion of Giant Strength +2 skill bonus in the same spirit.