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Post by a moderator on Dec 19, 2021 16:33:16 GMT
'No sense at all' is rather an exaggeration. Unless you have a rare misprint in which section 16 contains a curse that renders you illiterate whenever you look at the book. Yes, elements of your character's motivation become unclear if you skip the Mermaid's explanation of the magic that allows you to breathe underwater and her advice to collect Black Pearls, but there are plenty of plot points that have already been made clear: - Pirates killed your shipmates and tried to kill you.
- Some strange magic has made it possible for you to breathe underwater.
- You're in a sunken city, and have a rare opportunity to explore it.
- Getting revenge on the pirates would be rather satisfying.
Pearls are valuable, so treating them as aquatic-themed loot is an adequate explanation for why you might want to collect any you find. Greylock will explain other uses for them if you have any when you meet him, regardless of whether or not you spoke with the Mermaid. And since you can gain a partial victory with the assistance of the Sea Dragon or the right Toolfish, being unaware that some of the treasures of the deep could also be used for necromantic purposes doesn't ensure failure.
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Post by vastariner on Dec 19, 2021 20:26:32 GMT
The mermaid tells you that you need pearls for your revenge and why (and how) undersea magic works on you.
In-universe, without that, you've got no reason to look for pearls, and no indication at all that you might lose your protection.
Plus you have no idea how or where to go if you want to get revenge.
It's not like Trial of Champions, where it becomes obvious quickly that gold rings are the McGuffin. In-universe you have no reason to collect pearls specifically other than as stochastic treasure if you ever get back to land. Indeed, in-universe, you might want to swim to the surface ASAP, which would end the adventure there and then. Or want to live in Atlantis, which would kill you.
It's a daft bit of design - really it should have been an automatic go-to.
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Post by CharlesX on Dec 19, 2021 20:55:54 GMT
The mermaid tells you that you need pearls for your revenge and why (and how) undersea magic works on you. In-universe, without that, you've got no reason to look for pearls, and no indication at all that you might lose your protection. Plus you have no idea how or where to go if you want to get revenge. It's not like Trial of Champions, where it becomes obvious quickly that gold rings are the McGuffin. In-universe you have no reason to collect pearls specifically other than as stochastic treasure if you ever get back to land. Indeed, in-universe, you might want to swim to the surface ASAP, which would end the adventure there and then. Or want to live in Atlantis, which would kill you. It's a daft bit of design - really it should have been an automatic go-to. IIRC TOC set a trap for newbies, with a sign saying 'a gift of gold will let you pass, unless you want death by gas'. Anyway, I don't think it's such an unfair puzzle, compared to the linear, high-difficulty level of IL books. Even as a kid I knew going to the surface was unadventurous, anodyne and dumb. You could say the same thing about Poomchukker offering to buy your ring in Scorpion Swamp - it'd be silly to say yes. You can 'win', and even get revenge on the pirates, without the black pearls. The book not holding your hand about it adds to the mystery and sense of adventure (don't forget, the target audience is kids), and besides that, it's still possible to win (get a good ending, that is) with six or even four black pearls. Point of interest, I think you might be able to gamble the black pearls, but I can't be sure either way.
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Post by a moderator on Dec 19, 2021 21:12:54 GMT
It's a daft bit of design That's a reasonable point. the rest of the book makes no sense at all. That claim is more nonsensical than anything in DotD. Even the Sea Hag's fire. As Eric Idle once put it: Ham sandwich, bucket and water plastic Duralex, rubber McFisheries underwear. Plug rapid emulsion, sick custard without sustenance in Kipling duff geriatric scenery, maximises press insulating devilment, fronting sapphire collapse, incidentally.
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Post by The Count on Dec 19, 2021 22:45:21 GMT
The mermaid tells you that you need pearls for your revenge and why (and how) undersea magic works on you. In-universe, without that, you've got no reason to look for pearls, and no indication at all that you might lose your protection. Plus you have no idea how or where to go if you want to get revenge. It's not like Trial of Champions, where it becomes obvious quickly that gold rings are the McGuffin. In-universe you have no reason to collect pearls specifically other than as stochastic treasure if you ever get back to land. Indeed, in-universe, you might want to swim to the surface ASAP, which would end the adventure there and then. Or want to live in Atlantis, which would kill you. It's a daft bit of design - really it should have been an automatic go-to. There is no in universe reason to look for most of the junk you collect in most books until you lose the game. Pearls being valuable in general is a good enough reason to pick them up when you see them - and there are two other ways to win without them. Not every book needs to have a shopping list handed to you so you can win.
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Post by vastariner on Dec 19, 2021 23:39:47 GMT
No, but unless you see the mermaid early on, you don't even know if there's a winning condition. First time I played it I must have missed pretty much every reference to what I was meant to be doing.
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Post by a moderator on Dec 20, 2021 0:07:01 GMT
Did you conclude that the book was unwinnable1, or that you'd missed some information?
1I remember reading a review of Deathmoor which mentioned that a former owner of the reviewer's copy had written a rant inside the back cover, complaining that there was no way of winning the book, 'only death death DEATH.'
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Post by vastariner on Dec 20, 2021 7:51:59 GMT
I concluded I'd missed some info, rather than it being unwinnable.
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Post by vastariner on Dec 20, 2021 10:38:22 GMT
OK, Demons of the Deep, the “huh?” version. Descend to Atlantis (173). Ignore the watchers and go exploring (16). Bury a ghost (196, 101). Release a genie (184) and explore a large building (340). Leave it sharpish (23) and help a dolphin (350). Dodge a lion fish (234) and speak to Greylock (376). Then the book tells you to find a Sea Dragon but for no reason at all. So given that you swim off to small house and an abyss. You might get a dagger and a stamina boost. But what you do get is captured by a sea ogre. You fight him, then you fight giant crabs, try to explore a useless building, and then get some other options for exploration (389). If you go to the coral reef you meet a water sprite and you might end up with no further knowledge from it (44). And then you might meet some octopodes before swimming off (382) and you’re told you’re running out of time. But why? You don’t actually know your gills only last the day so you may end up with an instant death in two paragraphs’ time without knowing why. Even if you reach a success condition you’re still none the wiser as to what the whole thing was about other than a (literal) sandbox adventure.
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Post by a moderator on Dec 20, 2021 11:56:30 GMT
speak to Greylock (376). Then the book tells you to find a Sea Dragon but for no reason at all. If you have no Black Pearls: (67) Greylock suggests talking to the Sea Dragon as a way of dealing with the pirates. How does that constitute 'no reason at all'?
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Post by vastariner on Dec 20, 2021 15:50:17 GMT
But it refers to a job, which has never been stated (tbf it's not hard to guess), and a time limit, about which you don't know.
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Post by a moderator on Dec 20, 2021 15:56:09 GMT
Did Demons of the Deep beat you up and steal your dinner money, or something?
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Post by vastariner on Dec 20, 2021 17:29:03 GMT
If you avoid the bug, it's a fun read, lots of novelty value, quite a few clever bits and lots of very imaginative bits. The writing is a bit perfunctory. Ironically there's not much depth. And you probably need a bit more in the text to guide you as to why you're going into a deep abyss for instance or why you can't take a punt at taking up more treasure.
But really the book needs to force you into finding out what you're meant to be doing, either via another instant death or by a circular path to a guaranteed paragraph. It's a bad design.
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Post by The Count on Dec 21, 2021 1:22:36 GMT
It's not a bug.
You know from P1 that you are protected by magic. You can therefore know when it runs out as you would sense it in the same way that you became aware of it. You can find out that certain things are valuable from multiple sources - and even if you don't, you will generally still pick them up in the same way you are never told that you MUST pick up gold coins You have several opportunities to find out how to get your revenge, and even if you know nothing, you can still get the toolfish. If you go the wrong way consistently, you lose - and this takes more effort than winning. Unlike most books where you must know what the author (usually Ian or Jonathan) was thinking and you roll insanely well for stats and those rolls where without knowing you must succeed / fail...
The idea that Demons is bugged because you aren't handed a route map is absurd. It it one of the easiest books, and if you don't know what you are supposed to do, it means you have made poor choices - much like if you choose not to go down the pipe in Deathtrap for example as nowhere does it tell you that you MUST crawl up it to win.
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Post by a moderator on Dec 21, 2021 2:55:12 GMT
Talking of Deathtrap Dungeon, how much does it bug vastariner that the idol with the emerald eyes comes before the one-handed man who reveals that precious stones are needed?
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Post by vastariner on Dec 21, 2021 9:25:36 GMT
You know from P1 that you are protected by magic. You can therefore know when it runs out as you would sense it in the same way that you became aware of it. Yes, when it happens - but you don't know when it's going to happen. For all the PC knows, they are safe for ever under there. The book later assumes you know you have a limited time but there's only the one place (I think) where it tells you.
DD is different because you're meant to be a genre-wise PC off for adventure and you know that you collect treasure, for the bank balance if nothing else. In DotD, if you miss the choice at the start, you don't even know you're on an adventure.
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Post by a moderator on Dec 21, 2021 11:24:29 GMT
In DotD, if you miss the choice at the start, you don't even know you're on an adventure. An experienced sailor who's fought 'many brigands and strange creatures of the deep', whose comrades have just been butchered by pirates, thrown to your death by those same pirates, saved from drowning by some strange magic, finding yourself in a mysterious sunken city that you wouldn't normally be able to explore, but can on this occasion because of the unknown sorcery that spared your life... If you don't think this is an adventure, you are in the wrong profession.
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Post by CharlesX on Dec 21, 2021 11:27:57 GMT
.. really the book needs to force you into finding out what you're meant to be doing, either via another instant death or by a circular path to a guaranteed paragraph. It's a bad design. In which ways? As a kid I enjoyed not knowing exactly what to do, getting defeated, guessing, and getting partial victories. If you'd prefer it if you were told "it's fundamental you find a dolphin at the very least, try and defeat the pirates, the sea dragon is interesting but you can't trust it, oh, and, you'd best get exactly 8 black pearls if you want a perfect victory" (and as you seem to say, it hints at these more than once, which goes further than Livingstone's stuff), it wouldn't feel half as much like a gamebook. It isn't hard to guess the gills will run out after enough time passes, either. I've said this sort of thing before. I think we've established beyond doubt there is a gulf between vastariner's opinion of DOTD and most others on the forum. This has happened before with someone who hated Creature Of Havoc and thought it was pretentious, and someone who's name rhymes with pagsancho thinking Crypt was (very) underrated. We'll have to agree to disagree .
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Post by vastariner on Dec 21, 2021 14:23:57 GMT
Compare it to Kharé. That forces you to find out, early on, that you need the spell lines to get out of the city. Without that you're having a nice day out until you get to a gate for which you don't have the key.
I may be unusual because the first time I played it, I missed that encounter, so ended up with an experience that was aimless. Much better the second time around. But I think it needs that forcing.
A book that does that sort of thing - missing a key clue and borking the adventure - better is Slaves of the Abyss. First time I got to the bit where you realize that you've done something very bad to the people of Kallamehr, I was like wtf? Took me a while to get around to that particular option set. But it worked because it was an error within the advneture. Whereas in DotD you can go through the book protected by an unknown magic without knowing there's a route to revenge and without knowing it's going to run out. And even if you only get to the "shipwreck" ending you know who pushed you over and against whom you need your revenge...
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Post by pip on Dec 21, 2021 22:33:49 GMT
I remember this book as perhaps being too forgiving (not a lot of challenge) but also as having a lot of atmosphere and being an enjoyable experience.
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Post by daredevil123 on Dec 21, 2021 23:19:14 GMT
I agree. It's far from the best book in the series, but it's a lot of fun and I'd much prefer a book that's a bit too easy to one that's impossible to complete fairly.
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Post by Akharis on Sept 17, 2022 12:02:44 GMT
Whatever you do, don't steal the Merman's trident or you're screwed! :-)
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