50) Return to Firetop Mountain

[a moderator]

It appears that neither Google cache nor the Wayback Machine preserved any of the TUFFF discussion of this book. But my backup of playthroughs does include the one for RtFM, for what it's worth:

It was another trip to Swansea that led to my first encounter with this book, though in a rather different way. I travelled by coach, as I don't drive. The journey includes a stop in Birmingham, where I have to change coaches, and there is usually a wait of at least 40 minutes between arrival and departure. Around 5 minutes' walk from the coach station is a second-hand bookshop, which has helped me to pass the time between coaches on many an occasion. On this occasion, I found a cheap copy of RtFM there and, because it pressed my nostalgia buttons and I'd had long enough to forget what a disappointment Ian's previous book had been, I bought it. Having neither dice nor patience, I started to read it even before boarding the coach for the second leg of the journey. Nevertheless, I wanted to play fair as far as possible, and after incurring multiple Skill penalties I reasoned that I had little likelihood of succeeding at a Skill roll, and thus wound up captured by the Goblin in the torture chamber and, presumably, living horribly ever after.

Back when I started this thread, I won the original Firetop Mountain adventure with little difficulty. This time round, I doubt that it will be so easy. Rolling up a pretty decent character means that the situation's not hopeless, but still iffy. Above average stats are good, though, especially as my character is as generic as can be.

My reflections on Yaztromo are a little odd, considering the disparaging manner in which I contemplate seeking his assistance. 'Wise, good, powerful, philanthropic' and I reckon that asking him for help will probably be a waste of time? These bizarre thought processes are interrupted by Moose (what did his parents have against him?) running to warn me of a Seven Serpents-esque development. Except that, as far as I remember, the part of the adventure set in the mountain doesn't actually change in the least if I fail to prevent the Two Trackers from telling Zagor about me. The additions to my inventory provided by the encounter are a different matter, though, so I shall join the nomenclaturically cervine landlord in tracking the Trackers. Grabbing the shield that just happens to be lying conveniently close by, I launch into my first (and probably easiest) fight.

Next I meet a merry chap
Whose poetry is rather poor.
He gives a mushroom, I take it.
This encounter is, frankly, unimpressive.

Before the day is done I acquire more essential junk. Not content with revisiting old haunts and characters, Livingstone has also brought back some of his sillier ideas, such as vital items turning up in places they have no remotely plausible reason to be. What is the key to Zagor's inner sanctum doing in a pot in the cellar of a ruined hut in the middle of nowhere? If Ian behaves anything like some of his villains, anyone wishing to burgle his home can probably find his spare front door key in a skip in Uxbridge, the code to switch off the alarm carved into the arm of a park bench in central Durham, and a bell that inexplicably immobilises his guard dog going for a price you'd do well to memorise in a junk shop in Bolton.

I can't see Yaz at his home, and thus have to get a lift with every friend of Ian's who hasn't yet been namechecked in one of his books. The axe-throwing Orc we pass (who appears to have an above-average Skill, and suffer no penalty for his less-than-stable position) fails to hit his target, so I don't get to see which of Ian's mates he likes least. Then Moose's dove delivers a message to let me know that we didn't kill the Trackers hard enough, but I should be fine as long as I bear in mind that the rules concerning Doppelgangers will have changed completely by the time Ian next throws one into a book.

Outside Kaad I meet old Doppy, who wins an inordinately high number of Attack Rounds, and manages to throw a double before I do, thereby dooming me to 'an immaterial existence'. Some would say my geekish tendencies did that to me a long time ago.

[thealmightymudworm]

May 24, 2014 14:12:54 GMT a moderator said:

It appears that neither Google cache nor the Wayback Machine preserved any of the TUFFF discussion of this book.

I salvaged most of page one from Google, but not cleanly. I was waiting for hynreck to clean up his substantial review (as there some random floating sentences which might be part of it or might be part of someone else's posts - some of which have been amputated badly), but perhaps I'll just leave a space for it.

One of the things I like about this forum is that there's no time limit on edits.

[thealmightymudworm]

From TUFFF...

masterchief said:

Ah... Now this is some classic late-Livingstone. (Late as in , during the series... He's not dead. Unlike Keith Martin, who is still buried under his patio with the original manuscript of Legend of Zagor). Wow, now there's some Libel and Slander shit right there. Unless you realise, of course, that I am joking.

Again, another adventure I really enjoyed. Livingstone's writing is exactly what you'd expect, and there's decent build up to actually returning to the dungeons beneath Firetop Mountain.

I would have like to have seen this expanded a little, with maybe a couple of rooms asking you if you specifically recall being there... Although this may be a little far-fetched considering ten actual real Earth years have passed since the first books publication. So anyway, what do you all think of this adventure? Does McKenna do justive to Nicholson's original dungeon? Do you find the combat too hard? Is the 'one path' overly linear and require a lot of play-testing to get there? Let us know!


~ Vae Victis! ~

I think those to bits fit together like that.

[thealmightymudworm]

From TUFFF...

a moderator said:

It is a pretty linear path, but it isn't overly difficult to figure out, yet the book doesn't do as badly as some of Livingstone's narrower works as regards the false trail encounters.

(Obviously stuff missing here)

ETA: It looks to me as if the missing material was about the hero of RtFM being a different character from the hero of TWoFM, and thus not having any reason to remember rooms from the earlier book.

[thealmightymudworm]

From TUFFF...

masterchief said:

Yes, that would create a huge contradiction because it would mean separating character and reader into two different entities but I just like the idea. Like all the Marathon references in Halo. Sort of.

[thealmightymudworm]

From TUFFF...

a moderator said:

It would be an interesting idea to include in a gamebook, for sure. RtFM just isn't the right place for it.

[thealmightymudworm]

From TUFFF...

hynreck said:

WATCH THIS SPACE FOR HYNRECK'S REVIEW

[thealmightymudworm]

From TUFFF...

schlendrian said:

Have to agree with you in most aspects, especially the "Bling-bling Zagor". Killing this guy a second time should be satisfying, and it is up to a certain point, but in this book he has degenerated to an everyday villain. In the original, he really had some character, but in RtFM you could easily swap him with Malbordus, Razaak, , Ikiru or any other of the countless villains FF gave us.

[thealmightymudworm]

From TUFFF...

hynreck said:

I think Armies of Death must be amongst the worst out there. Certainly the worst Livingstone I've read so far. Granted I've heard bad things about Eye of the Dragon... But I won't condemn until I've read it first. Let's be fair! ...so yeah, I kinda agree with your points too!


Speak in extremes, it will save you time.

[thealmightymudworm]

From TUFFF...

@tammy said:

[quotes hynreck AoD post] Read it tomorrow, and give your opinion please.


The more beautiful and pure FF is – the more satisfying it is to corrupt it

[thealmightymudworm]

From TUFFF...

kieran said:

[quotes hynreck AoD post and...?]

[thealmightymudworm]

From TUFFF...

hynreck said:

kieran said:

There's just something about Livingstone dungeon adventures that gets me every time.

I know what you mean about Livingstone, probably that nostalgic feeling of reliving another version of Deathtrap Dungeon. Never worked as well, but still, he nailed it with that particular book. As for the numbered item thing, you are right, and it's not that big of a deal, but it falls in line with the overall aspect of not trying very hard with this book, especially considering this was supposed to be the last one.


...and I'm sorry, Khaxzan, Eye of the Dragon is #60 on the list, and I'm currently reading #51. Gotta stick to the order! But I'll get there sooner or later

[thealmightymudworm]

From TUFFF...

paltogue said:

hynreck said:

...and I'm sorry, Khaxzan, Eye of the Dragon is #60 on the list, and I'm currently reading #51. Gotta stick to the order! But I'll get there sooner or later

No idea what Paltogue said here.

[thealmightymudworm]

From TUFFF...

kieran said:

Of course, I got the first few Fabled Lands, and those can last forever I hear. Speak in extremes, it will save you time.

This seems to be Kieran quoting Hynreck - but if so I don't know which post from or what the reply was.

[thealmightymudworm]

From TUFFF...

hynreck said:

Yes. Cloudy, the future is. ...I think it's time to inform the senate that our ability to predict the future has diminished. SHUT YO MOUTH, MACE!

[thealmightymudworm]

From TUFFF...

craze_b0i said:

I just read this one again. I think the main feeling is disappointment. The one good thing is the illustrations which are fantastic. But the problem with the book is the structure, its basically a tedious treasure-hunt, tedious mainly because the route is so linear. Also the idea of summoning the 4 elementals just did not seem very original. I just found the whole elemental-plot clunky and contrived. Also the dungeon seemed a shadow of its former self, the first section with all the boarded-up doors and empty corridors springs to mind.

I felt that bit was very lazy. And 1 more thing, the eagle vs harpy fight is just a rip-off from Temple of Terror. Compared to the quality of writing in the various FF releases immediately before it this very below standard. I just felt it could have been done so much better. Finally at the end I am not sure if I completed the book correctly or not. I found a gold dragon-tooth with picture of a heart surrounded by flames, I took it to be the fire elemental tooth but there was no number stamped on it so I was not certain this is right. . I don't know if anyone can shed light on this?


My FF reviews: z3.invisionfree.com/Orc__Goblin_Warpath/index.php?showtopic=29374.

(Possibly stuff missing here.)

[thealmightymudworm]

From TUFFF...

a moderator said:

That is the right one. The Wizard reprint added the number to clarify things.

[thealmightymudworm]

From TUFFF...

craze_b0i said:

Thanks for clearing that up. Looking back at my post that was quite a rant, lol.


My FF reviews: z3.invisionfree.com/Orc__Goblin_Warpath/index.php?showtopic=29374.

[thealmightymudworm]

From TUFFF...

vagsancho said:

This is not one of my favourite Livingstone's books. I agree with some opinion's I've read that with this book and Armies of Death, the descending path of Livingstone had already began. What an infinite distance to Crypt of the Sorcerer.

However, I liked this book (7,5 in 10) and I must say one thing about this adventure: it was certainly one of the most fantastic final fights of all the books!


Razaak's apprentice.

[thealmightymudworm]

From TUFFF...

@tammy said:

The dude is getting old. Imagine a 90 year old Livingstone writing yet another Zagor gamebook?


The more beautiful and pure FF is – the more satisfying it is to corrupt it.

[thealmightymudworm]

From TUFFF...

vagsancho said:

No offense my friend!

(Presumably vag said something else here first, but not sure what it was. Maybe best left unknown...)

[hynreck]

Watch this space for Hynreck review! Yikes, thank you Almighty for whipping back some shape into my body. This is a copy of my review from the old old world site, with the usual commentaries, modifications and substractions. I'm trying to make it much worst, okay?

So many things to say about this one, so little time. Basically, I don't want to be caught ranting on and on about this book, though I will (you know I will, I'm already doing it). The Warlock of Firetop Mountain is such a dear classic to my heart that obviously, the fate of its sequel was bound to touch me in a personal way. Mostly in all the wrong places (get yo' mind of the gutter. Wait, the gutter might be the right place, hold onto that thought). But in the hope of staying as concise as possible (ah!), let me refrain from jumping ahead and instead focus on a step by step approach.

First and for a change, this is not a new book. I picked up a french copy somewhere in the last 15 years or so, can't remember when exactly (just like I can't remember when I've written this review, should make a habit of writing the date). All I can remember is that when I finally did pick it up, it had already been a while since the last time I played/read/bought a gamebook. So this was not out of habit, it was – and it is the only other thing I remember – because of the name, of course, just the way the author intended. Clever but not unusual. Just another trick of marketing. I told myself, like probably a lot of you, "how cool, a sequel to Firetop!! I need it!" So I bought it. Now, I still own that copy with the original cover by Les Edwards and with, unknown to me at the time, lots of illos missing. But I'll come back to those with more details at the end of my review, don't worry.

So now, I've read the english version, the Wizard reprint with the new cover by McKenna and the shiny gold embossed font. It's an okay cover, no more no less. I'm not that fond of the original cover by Edwards (why does every major villain must sport that awful Dracula haircut?), but this new cover, while making the book seems a little bit more serious, doesn't top the original one either. I don't know, but I guess it's cheesy, hard to explain (I'm struggling right?). Maybe Zagor looks a bit too nice on it?

Inside illos are the real highlight of this book, here. McKenna is in great shape, giving some of his best. They look for the most part too Deathtrap Dungeon-y (like Zagor's big bad main door recalling the last door of Sukumvit's dungeon or Zoot Zimmer's cell posture recalling Livingstone's same from the same book) but hommage to the original are welcomed, even though I'm not sure if they were all meant to be. Obvious ones are like the one with the ferryman while less obvious comprises the composition of the Orc eating a rat head first while his dwarf companion looks on; recalling a bit the two drunken orcs as drawn by Russ Nicholson. The Wizard edition's illos are slightly too dark, which is a shame (maybe they didn't have access to the originals; Dave Morris has had to cut off old copies of his own books so that he could scan the pictures for the new editions, could be the same process at work here), but fortunately we are not missing much details all the same. For example, I was still able to make out the FF insignia on the Puzzle Master's belt buckle. So most of the info can still be found, just with less subtlety.

Now to the meat of the story…ugh. What story? It's okay, really, the sequel to Warlock should be light on story, right? Like the original? But could Livingstone have tried any less? The book is a giant (ok, medium size) amalgam of clichés, but worse, those clichés do not even pay respect to the original. First, where is the maze? And I'm not even talking about the infamous maze of Zagor – it's not in there – but it sure would have been appropriate, despite being unpopular. No, I'm wondering where's this labyrinth I'm supposed to go through to reach the big baddie? Nothing? I mean, I know it's been ten unkind years for Firetop Mountain, and hey!, tunnels dug through rock will collapse, perhaps, if not attended to by a slave or two, and poor Zagor might have had a hard time rebuilding the place to its former glory… again, perhaps. But a straight line to the bad guy? Really? I mean, yeah, there's a diverging corridor or two (an important one, anyway) but those are not enough to call your place a labyrinth (to be fair, the book is called Return to Firetop Mountain, not Return to the Labyrinth... perhaps Zagor could have just shack-up somewhere up the slope? Less trouble really). Still, there's no way you can get lost... Kill, most likely, yes, but you won't die of starvation from running around in circle here!

Running through traps and gauntlets of enemies ain't that much fun after a while. The solution? Allow the book to go beyond 400 sections. It is the 50^th anniversary, after all. 500 or even 600 sections could have done the trick, allowing to keep the first part (outside Firetop) intact, while greatly expanding the inside dungeon, actually turning it into a genuine labyrinth! It would have also help in improving the nostalgia factor. Don't get me wrong, what's in there is nice; seeing the old portcullis with its fake wax lever; the torture room; passing through the empty portrait room; the ferryman; but there could have been so much more, both playful things and meaningful things. What if, for instance, instead of having someone neatly locking the first three doors (who did that anyway? Firetop's real estate agent? An Allansian Health Inspector?) you could have had the possibility of forcing them open, maybe finding nothing on the other side, maybe finding something useful, why, maybe even be challenged by something far greater than a few drunken orcs. Let's us have fun with the setting! Or what if you could have stumble on a boat on the river, all manned by a real skeleton crew? After all we saw those dudes building up that boat last time we checked in, it would have been fun to witness some evolution (and I believe they would have finished, by now?). It bear repeating: this was Fighting Fantasy's big 50^th. Supposedly the last book of the line. Why wasn't there something more special done with the book? A real one time event à la Crown of Kings? You'll answer budget, the usual suspect, but let's acknowledge in return the missed opportunity.

Another missed opportunity? The use of numbered items. You know what they are. Keys and such (tooth!). Not only is this book filled with the usual Livingstonism like hiding some vital item in the most obscure and illogical of places – really, something expected from Livingstone and not necessarily unwelcomed – but no tricks were even tried to hide those numbers. See a numbered key? You can just turn to that number right now and have a peak of things to come. No mystery. No add or substract. No need to assemble a few numbers together. Not bothering at all is what it is, really. And so, while Zagor might not have had time to rebuild his labyrinth, he sure did have time to add some style and luxury around his personal quarters.

See, the new, not quite improved Zagor loves bling bling. He bought himself a huge door with a big Z on it so that everyone could know it's his… which also nicely points the way toward his not so secret lair anymore. Nice job fixing it, villain.

(There's a bit that's missing here in the original review, I can't remember what I wrote, but it had something to do with how the story in RtFM retcon the original in its intro, changing the dubious past into something more fittingly heroic, and here's what I've written about it, for better or worst:)

So what started as a poor schmo on the lunatic side (back in The Warlock of Firetop Mountain) going on a quest for some mythical treasure – a fool's quest, really – is now seen as the stuff of legend, a hero who stood up against pure evil and defeated the Warlock in a mighty clash of sword versus magic, no doubt. No mention of going after the treasure? No mention of the possibility of becoming the next Zagor? Oh well. 10 years on, we need to beef up the story. But let's move on to the next subject.

My french edition is missing so much cool illustrations it's not funny anymore. In this particular version there are no cool mutant guarding Zagor's bling bling door, there are no harpy in the sky looking strangely like a John Blanche's harpy as last seen in Kharé, no disgusting illo of a dog being sucked dry by giant worms, no master of puzzles, no trackers, no orcs in a boat or cool dragon-like boat at all, no deathlords, no torture pornroom, no ferryman, shit, come on, seems like everything's missing. I sure am glad to own the complete version now, at last. Not that I knew back then what I was missing.

(Seems like another bit missing here where I'm referring to oddities found in the french version, sorry) There are some oddities to be found like calling the diamond sentinel Zagor. See, in french, they kept captions under the illos like in the first three books. Baffling, to say the least (the misnaming, not the captions. Though in this case, true, the captions are misleading and thus baffling. Just not the fact that they kept using captions over the original version. Argh, ok I'll quit).

I'm sure I'm forgetting some other stuff, but this review went on for far too long already. In any case, I realise this review might sound very harsh indeed. Return to Firetop isn't such a bad book. It's not the worst of the FF, or the worst by Livingstone. It's good entertainement. Had it been called anything else but a sequel to Firetop this review would have been much shorter and kinder. But because it was, and because it was supposed to be the last book, finishing on some kind of high note, on this matter it fails miserably. It fails to shine in light of the genius books that came before and in light of what the original was and meant to the fans out there. All I can say is that I'm glad the FF series didn't end at that point. It might not have been catastrophic, but it sure would be have been quite the let down.

[kieran]

Regarding the huge changes in Firetop Mountain's layout, I blame those magic tools from the first book.

[sylas]

if Return to Firetop Mountain were not to fail miserably as FFs final outing, Blood of the Zombies would sure have a good shot of that.

admittedly, i really liked this adventure when i first read it. it felt very Deathtrap Dungeon in Zagor's lair, though back then i also thought Crypt was great too.

[hynreck]

Apr 16, 2015 12:54:49 GMT kieran said:

Regarding the huge changes in Firetop Mountain's layout, I blame those magic tools from the first book.

You know what? That's brilliant. From now on, I too will blame those tools.

After all, nobody was there to stop them.

I can even picture one of them, let's say, Shovel, saying to the others:

Guys, I think the old man died. It's been forever since our last instructions. It's never been this long! Let's stop work!

Pick: What else are we supposed to do?

Shovel: I don't know, but I'm not digging any longer. I'm sick of it.

Pick: But we have to work! Or else we have no purpose!

Shovel: I know what! Let's fill those tunnels back the way they were! Those idiots surrounding us will be pushed back outside! It will be fun!

Pick: (sigh) I don't mind. Just as long as I keep working, I'm happy.

[hynreck]

Apr 16, 2015 22:20:53 GMT sylas said:

if Return to Firetop Mountain were not to fail miserably as FFs final outing, Blood of the Zombies would sure have a good shot of that.

admittedly, i really liked this adventure when i first read it. it felt very Deathtrap Dungeon in Zagor's lair, though back then i also thought Crypt was great too.

Right you are, about Blood of the Zombies. Both books had neat ideas, and even better artworks, but still failed to deliver. Though I would give a slight advantage to Blood, because while the gameplay makes it unwinnable, at least as a gamebook (cause I don't know about the App) which is a pretty huge flaw, the story at least delivers quite a bit more than RtFM. It's a storm of clichés, but we must strive to remember that Tropes are not bad. It's a cheesy tribute that works most of the time.

[Deleted]

An earwig assassin? Come on now!

[hynreck]

Earwigs creep me out. One was hiding in my nail clipper. Another in my razor blades. You start shaving and suddenly there's pieces of Earwig on you... *shivers*

True story, too.

[Deleted]

Yep. Very gross. Not too bothered by spiders though, they EAT the earwigs.

[hynreck]

Yep there's that. I'm not too bothered by bugs, but as a rule of thumb it's: out of my house.
Well, I do hate the flying ones...
Okay, I hate bugs.

Still, if they're outside and I'm inside, where's the harm...