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Post by thealmightymudworm on Dec 28, 2013 0:42:20 GMT
From TUFFF... Spoiler alert!
--------------- Is it possible to get captured in Hallow's Well and meet the piper? Without losing a couple of dice rolls? ITSM that you have to do both to win through. "Your progress has been watched, foul creature of destruction!" |
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Dec 28, 2013 0:43:03 GMT
From TUFFF... Short of assuming that Jonathan Green made a mistake when revising the book for the Wizard edition, and switching the surrender option in section 173 to 269, you will need some strategically timed unlucky rolls to be able to get the relevant items. |
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Dec 28, 2013 0:44:05 GMT
From TUFFF... I think you should be given the option of surrendering when you kill the Piper. Otherwise the only way to get captured is through your battle with the militia lasting more than 10 ARs. "Your progress has been watched, foul creature of destruction!" |
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Dec 28, 2013 0:44:39 GMT
From TUFFF... That's more or less what I was saying. I did try asking Jon Green about it, but never got a reply. |
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Dec 28, 2013 0:47:08 GMT
From TUFFF... Alright! Another new book for me, and my first Jon Green book; something I’ve been anticipating for quite a while now. It’s important for me because, Mr. Green, being the sole current and active writer of FF up until now (and I really mean active folks, as being known to post on this forum from time to time), I was very eager to plunge headlong into his brand of adventure and discover what he had in store for me, because (and I think many fellow fans out there will understand my apprehension), as the last one standing of all the authors (except perhaps Livingstone?), you have to hope that he will be able to deliver the goods. Those goods don’t need to be the best out there, but amongst the best would be a nice way to end the series. So, of course, I was very curious to have a taste in Green’s very first offering. But what kind of a taste would it leave? A sour taste? Not really, more akin to a Jawbreaker, or let’s say, this book could easily be renamed Backbreaker! Cause this is what it will do to you, the gamer: Jon started hard and heavy with a mean streak. Perhaps a compensation for the fact that he looks so nice in real life? But let’s put the kidding aside and go straight to the nitty-gritty. Okay, what happened to Alan Langford? Did he get swapped with an evil, talentless doppelganger? There’s an artist out there, not sure who, who tries very hard to imitate Mr Langford’s style, but fails hard most of the time. There’s lots of lovely details described by Jon Green over the course of the story - the guy certainly doesn’t lack imagination - but most of those details can’t be find in the illos found in this book. The rest, what little is left, ends up mostly butchered. Take for example that giant moleman taking you in for a night. He looks more like grandma hamster (that’s me being nice) and those fireflies he keeps in a glass jar? Looks more like maggots to me. It’s like everything’s been drawn with the thickest pencil ever. Such a shame. One or three illos actually look like they’ve been drawn by the real Alan Langford, but that’s it. After that he was taken over. Which reminds me: I don’t have any contacts with any kind of services who could look into the case, but if YOU know anything about the actual whereabouts of Alan Langford, could you please take a look at that doppelganger x-file? I’m not sure what kind of eye colour this particular doppelganger is supposed to have (I’d bet white à la Twin Peaks), but I’m pretty sure the real Mr. Langford is currently rotting away in a dank cell someplace, so please, for the man’s earlier work’s sake, do something about it! We must put a stop to talentless clones! On the other end, I really like Martin McKenna’s new cover, much more in line with the wanted tone of the book. But enough ranting already. If I continue, someone’s bound to ask me how’s my talent doing? My talent for ranting is fine, I thank you. So with shifty eyes I’ll move on. For his first book, Mr. Green devised quite an interesting story. It’s got a bit of a contrived setting: hero is sent on a guilt trip to retrieve the big bad book by useless monks very keen on finger pointing. Boo-hoo how was I supposed to know I was letting the big bad in? I didn’t see any of you lot try to do something about it. Plus, in any case, if you’re gonna guilt trip me into going, couldn’t you send some people with me? Why, perhaps summon the nearest task force? The end of the world is at stake! (sort of) It’s also a bit of a hodge-podge of ideas, but its all tied-up nicely with an underlying theme of witchcraft, which is quite clever as it allows much freedom in what could befall the hero. It’s also clear with the way the book is spread that Stephan Hand had a big influence on Jon: admitted by the author himself, he is a big fan of Dead of Night. Just take a look at that book and you’ll see that the map with it’s main goal is laid out pretty much in a similar fashion. No problem there as DoN is a pretty good book. Gameplay wise there also a smidge of Keith Martin sprinkled left and right, I believe. Not so much a problem here either as Mr. Martin brought quite a few interesting changes to the FF mold himself. Where it hurts the most though is in the fairness of the gameplay. It’s hard to tell if it was a mistake or just intended to be this mean, but this book is nearly unbeatable. It’s been criticize enough on this, so I won’t linger, but let’s just say that losing a few key roll of the dice at the beginning of the book is a nearly impossible thing to do, especially when you consider that you have to make a few odd choices to get there, mostly going against the grain of what logic would dictate. And then there’s that bottle neck near the end, reminding me a lot of the one in Trial of Champions. You’ll find out quickly at that point if you’ve picked the right items along the road. And then there’s that 50-50 chance of dying. Simple roll of the die. And there’s nothing you can do to influence the outcome. Harsh.
I’ll admit, I was a bit nervous reviewing for the first time a Green book. I have to face the not-so-damaging truth that most of my reviews are not read by the authors concerned, but this one might be, as Jon Green is known to lurk here from time to time. Lots of pressure! But it’s all good. In the end, even with all the problems this book have, I had quite a lot of fun. Even though I kept failing at the end, I didn’t mind that much cause it meant I would get a chance to go on a tangent and meet some more of the weird denizens lying the paths of Ruddlestone. And as for my initial apprehension? I now feel relief. Cause Jon showed me here that he had lots of potential for fun adventures to be had, and I’m awaiting the next ones eagerly. Plus, I hear from fans around that he did improve over his mean streak over time (acquiring wisdom, no doubt), so that’s another thing to look forward. Bring it on! Speak in extremes, it will save you time. |
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Dec 28, 2013 0:48:59 GMT
From TUFFF... Take for example that giant moleman taking you in for a night. He looks more like grandma hamster (that’s me being nice) He's always made me think of those Sylvanian Families toys en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sylvanian_Families. Probably not what Jon was intending I agree. Silly mole-men aside though, I quite like the illustrations in Spellbreaker (in fact the one of the ogre would probably be among my favourites for the series). As a whole, Alan's illustrated other books better, but I don't think this one is so much worse. He's always pretty heavy with his lining which is one of the things I like about his style. On the other end, I really like Martin McKenna’s new cover, much more in line with the wanted tone of the book. I think I'm pretty much alone on this, but I prefer the original. The demon's expression is a bit goofy, but there's something quite sinister about it and I love the evil look on Nazek's face. It’s also clear with the way the book is spread that Stephan Hand had a big influence on Jon: admitted by the author himself, he is a big fan of Dead of Night. I think you can definitely see the influence Stephen had on Jon. Knights of Doom is even more similar to Dead of Night, casting you as a knight templar. And there's also some techniques of Stephen's (separating markets into mundane items and exotic ones in Legend of the Shadow Warriors and the skeleton attack on the farmhouse in Dead of Night) that crop up in a few of Jon's books. Though, I find Jon's books are generally more atmospheric than Stephen's. Even though I kept failing at the end, I didn’t mind that much cause it meant I would get a chance to go on a tangent and meet some more of the weird denizens lying the paths of Ruddlestone. This is what I like best about this book: there's plenty of interesting encounters on the wrong paths. Too many books put all the good stuff on the true path and fill the false ones with bland encounters. |
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Dec 28, 2013 0:51:22 GMT
From TUFFF... Thanks Kieran, it's always fun to discuss stuff, even when we don't see eye to eye.
I guess I painted a pretty negative portrait of Alan Langford's illos. Let's say they took me by surprise, it's not that they are so bad so much as they don't feel right "up there" with what this artist produced before. Look at most of the animals on display, lots are goofy, I mean, where's the guy who drew up that awesome tiger in Island of the Lizard King?
On the other end, I thought the illo for the Barrow Guardian was quite good, to name only one. And I share your feelings about having interesting stuff happening on the wrong paths, always interesting and adds replay value.
As for the HAND having influences on Jon (at least early on) it's all cool by me. I've always been of the kind to think that more of a good stuff is definitely... good!
Just think if it would have been Martin Allen (Sky Lord's author) ending up influencing Jon. The humanity... Speak in extremes, it will save you time. |
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Dec 28, 2013 0:52:06 GMT
From TUFFF... Forgot to click on your link, Kieran. Haha, cute toys. I can see the family resemblance. Speak in extremes, it will save you time. |
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Dec 28, 2013 0:53:09 GMT
From TUFFF... Just think if it would have been Martin Allen (Sky Lord's author) ending up influencing Jon. The humanity... I dunno. Maybe instead of Howl of the Werewolf we could have Howl of the Mistral, where you're in a race against time to stop yourself turning into a 4-armed warrior with a habit of stopping to play pool during life or death situations. I'm not sure I can think of a worse fate. |
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Dec 28, 2013 0:54:19 GMT
From TUFFF... Think about it, he could have invented dual pool stick play! Mindblowing stuff, I tell you.  Speak in extremes, it will save you time. |
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Dec 28, 2013 0:55:46 GMT
From TUFFF... I love and hate this book in equal measure. I bought and read all the books as an adult in a fit of nostalgia about ten years ago. All beyond about Demons of the Deep were new to me, and CoH aside, I felt like I was going through the motions...until this beauty. Totally absorbing but I kept dying and starting again until I'd exhausted all the options. I cheated in the end, and felt cheated. LOSE A LUCK ROLL? Has anyone beaten this book straight through, because I did a rough calculation afterwards and believe it virtually mathematically impossible? Definitely my fav non Jackson/Livingstone book by a mile. |
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Dec 28, 2013 0:56:49 GMT
From TUFFF... You don't have to lose a Luck roll, but you do have to take your time killing some weak enemies which is near impossible with a high Skill. A high Skill which is pretty much compulsory given the amount of tough enemies in the book. You also only have a 1 in 6 chance of getting an essential item, need to start off with lots of gold (and probably win at Eclipse too), pass a random 50-50 roll and pass pretty much all the numerous Luck tests (with very few ways to replenish Luck). The optimal path is also very narrow and convoluted so even with ignoring dice rolls it's tough as hell. |
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Dec 28, 2013 0:58:04 GMT
From TUFFF... I haven't read it for ten years but remember having to lose a Luck roll so as to get thrown in jail or something. Maybe it was had to lose against a low Skill opponent instead? Actually, the latter would be more difficult to achieve, because at least you could run down your Luck in prior battles. Might play it again after I've finished Bloodbones, which I'm also liking a lot. |
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Dec 28, 2013 1:00:38 GMT
From TUFFF... Might play it again after I've finished Bloodbones, which I'm also liking a lot. Hi Lee Glad you're enjoying my stuff. I agree that where Spellbreaker was hot on atmosphere when it comes to game design it's sadly lacking. I tried very hard with all my post-Bloodbones titles to make sure that the gameplay matched the writing in terms of quality. Have you read Howl of the Werewolf, Stormslayer or Night of the Necromancer? Best Jon Jon Green |
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Dec 28, 2013 1:05:08 GMT
From TUFFF... I tried very hard with all my post-Bloodbones titles to make sure that the gameplay matched the writing in terms of quality. Your efforts certainly show and are much appreciated. The good work must continue. What can I say about JG's books? Of your Wizard titles, Bloodbones is probably my favourite (I enjoy the challenge). Iit IS tough even for a Skill 10 hero. A simple chance to revisit the Market prior to entering the pirates' hideout would have made a big difference in terms of difficulty. Howl of the Werewolf has some solid writing and difficulty is definitely more balanced.
I was mildly annoyed with the Change stat though. Unless you roll 2 or 3 against your Change, you're unlikely to fall victim to the beast within. This led to my disappointment to learn that one of the juiciest sections of the book involved having to 'fail' a Change check to reach it. I refer to paragraph 33 (which would have tied in nicely to para 300 later). I tend to play this on challenge mode, adding an extra +1 each time my Change increases. Stormslayer, excellent gameplay that needs to be utilised in more books. Story is not as engaging as the other titles but replay value is gold. Night of the Necromancer, your character has more lives than Mario. Hmmm...
still a very good read and good powers. Again great replay value.
Story ranking: Howl, Night, Blood, Storm
Gameplay ranking: Storm, Blood, Night, Howl Just waiting for Saga of the Stormchaser now. I'd rather this be written before any thought went in for a Mummy sequel.  Two Words |
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Dec 28, 2013 1:07:18 GMT
From TUFFF... Hello Jon I'm honoured. The frustrating thing about Spellbreaker is that it only needs a few tweaks to make it playable. A lot of the later entries in the series were stupidly difficult as well though. As a reader/player there's no sense of satisfaction in having to use 'save points' throughout the books. Don't get me wrong, I love a challenge, but not one dependent on unlikely (to put it mildly) dice rolls. Yep, got Stormslayer to read, and Necromancer came in the post today. I waved it at my daughter and said 'look, the author just spoke to me on the internet', to which she replied, 'you're going through a mid-life crisis dad'. Ha. Trying to track down a series one HotW. I think someone said it was Hammeresque so REALLY looking forward to that one. |
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Dec 28, 2013 1:08:32 GMT
From TUFFF... I actually rate Spellbreaker, Knights, and Bloodbones a lot higher than Howl, Slayer and Night. I love books which are difficult because the true path is so well hidden - the former three have great replayability for this reason. (This may also explain why Creature Of Havoc, The Crimson Tide and Siege Of Sardath are my three favourite FFs of all.) The only problem I have is where the required dice rolls are unfair - for instance, the Faith check to get the Heal-All in Spellbreaker. This could have been easily fixed if the player had the chance to pick up the trinkets at the market beforehand (as there is a chance to acquire more Faith points there), or simply by not adding such a great number to the dice roll. The true path should be easy to play, but difficult to find if you don't already know it. What is beyond question, of course, is that all seven Jon Green books are very beautifully and richly written - the prose and the worldbuilding is first class. |
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Dec 28, 2013 1:09:02 GMT
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Dec 28, 2013 1:10:23 GMT
From TUFFF... Yep, got Stormslayer to read, and Necromancer came in the post today. I waved it at my daughter and said 'look, the author just spoke to me on the internet', to which she replied, 'you're going through a mid-life crisis dad'. That's really funny, I can just picture the scene! ~ Vae Victis! ~ |
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Dec 28, 2013 1:11:07 GMT
From TUFFF... Just when you think FF can't get any weirder...here comes a cabin resting on a large crow's foot...and oh, yeah, yeah...it's spotted me and is now moving toward me. A CABIN...ON A BIRD'S FOOT?! Wow!  |
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Post by a moderator on May 24, 2014 11:55:59 GMT
My TUFFF playthrough:
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Post by nathanh on Dec 31, 2014 20:15:11 GMT
Well, I had to write a program to play through most of this book for me, but I finally managed to win it without cheating. This book is one step away from brilliance but swerved at the last moment to become maddening. The annoying thing is that it's ludicrously hard but not very many changes would be needed to make it non-hard. If you could just
1) Visit the market before trying to get the Heal-All
2) Have the option to surrender to the guard
3) Not have an irritating 50% random death chance near the end
then it'd be pretty playable for say a 10/20/10 character. I'd probably change the gold situation too, so only very poor characters need to play Eclipse. Another thing that could be done is to switch the herbs around a bit so that you can get right to the end without having to do the Canker sidequest; this would allow the player to explore the end section of the book with losing characters.
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Post by Charles X. on Jul 16, 2021 20:09:08 GMT
Really should have a 'surrender' option, do away with the 50 50 or alter it to 1 in 6, and reduce the difficulty level of those do or die rolls, and the book would be good.
I don't know why FF writers think their readers will cheat all the time, and on that basis, add do or die rolls as though they were salt and sugar. 80% of FF books are pitched at too high a difficulty level, or with Spellbreaker, Masks Of Mayhem and Crypt, with no regard at all for the odds of success and failure.
What was J. Green even thinking, writing a book filled with tough enemies, including a fight with weak ones (that) you have to lose if you're going to win?
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Post by CharlesX on Apr 6, 2023 18:43:23 GMT
What I hate about SpellbreakerI put Spellbreaker in maybe my bottom 9, bottom 6 FFs and I'm going to give some reasons why. This is after I've read others here praising the elaborate world and Green handwriting, basically I'd give Spellbreaker 2 out of 10. 1. I don't agree with Champskees who praises the world of Spellbreaker. The world is drab\dull, and dry, the gamebook is filled with a lot of fights and too little choice, variation, or development. It's slightly disappointing to me for a Green book where Green can be so creative. 2. I like FF so I can explore, be a bad guy, win in more than one way. Spellbreaker doesn't let you be a rogue. 3. Spellbreaker would have been outrageously hard even without having to fail the fight, which you really should be able to, but as it is it is harder than Crypt! 4. The writing is boring compared with imaginative FF writing such as Waterfield and Jackson.
5. I agree with Champskees where he describes Spellbreaker as 'ugly'. It isn't high-spirited like other FF.
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Post by petch on Apr 7, 2023 9:29:35 GMT
Each to their own I suppose, and I entirely get why some may dislike Spellbreaker for its outrageous difficulty, but I'd strongly disagree that the writing is boring or the world building is dry. It's a book I enjoy despite its unfairness precisely because it presents a world full of richly evoked settings, authentic feeling characters with well crafted dialogue, and set pieces that immerse you in the action due to Green's skillful use of tension (I especially like the scene in the farmhouse with the poor family tormented by the Grimalkin, and the pulse-pounding witchburning sequence - in spite of that nasty 50/50 dice roll!).
It's a terrific read and also has a very well concealed true path through to find, if you can get over (or simply cheat your way through) its unforgiving gameplay. I think I've commented somewhere before that where Spellbreaker seems even more unfair than some of the other notoriously hard books in the series is in that it seems to be making a conscious effort to kill off the player pretty much throughout through demanding a series of increasingly unlikely dice rolls, rather than just having one or two nasty bits to be negotiated. I actually also find it quite interesting as the first part of Green's progression as an author of interactive fiction, as he develops his craft from presenting engaging but overly challenging books to his later efforts that hit that sweet spot between narrative and gameplay.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,453
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Apr 7, 2023 10:18:05 GMT
I like the way the setting in Spellbreaker feels a bit more organic. Mask and his bandits aren't just some obstacle to overcome, they actively impact the world. Herblore and witchcraft have become semi industries. Religion seems to be an active part of people's day to day lives. I think the world building is excellent for those reasons.
Can't argue about the difficulty though. There's so many easy fixes that would improve it like allowing you to go the market before the well to boost your Faith.
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Post by CharlesX on Apr 7, 2023 13:36:23 GMT
Each to their own I suppose, and I entirely get why some may dislike Spellbreaker for its outrageous difficulty, but I'd strongly disagree that the writing is boring or the world building is dry. It's a book I enjoy despite its unfairness precisely because it presents a world full of richly evoked settings, authentic feeling characters with well crafted dialogue, and set pieces that immerse you in the action due to Green's skillful use of tension (I especially like the scene in the farmhouse with the poor family tormented by the Grimalkin, and the pulse-pounding witchburning sequence - in spite of that nasty 50/50 dice roll!). It's a terrific read and also has a very well concealed true path through to find, if you can get over (or simply cheat your way through) its unforgiving gameplay. I think I've commented somewhere before that where Spellbreaker seems even more unfair than some of the other notoriously hard books in the series is in that it seems to be making a conscious effort to kill off the player pretty much throughout through demanding a series of increasingly unlikely dice rolls, rather than just having one or two nasty bits to be negotiated. I actually also find it quite interesting as the first part of Green's progression as an author of interactive fiction, as he develops his craft from presenting engaging but overly challenging books to his later efforts that hit that sweet spot between narrative and gameplay. Slightly like Crypt Of The Sorceror, the excessive difficulty colours one's perception of the entire gamebook. For example, I don't remember the 50 50 roll as a realistic, exciting, or dramatic portrayal of middle-ages (like Maelstrom or an early Shakespeare play), I remember it as another in a long list of hard, unfair challenges to pass. You have to roll maximum for Faith and pass several tests on that basis, roll maximum for gold (unless you spend ages playing Eclipse, which won't do the trick more than half the time), and pass the 50 50 etc. For me these gameplay hurdles (tedious tests) overshadow both the world-building and things like fighting and conversations which make up other parts of the gamebook. Perhaps I'll never be amongst Spellbreaker's fans, but even then I find such unforgiving gameplay disappointing. As you say, it's all incredibly subjective. I like Jonathan Green's Knights Of Doom, which is so full of fights and tests there is limited characterisation, and reads like Warhammer FRPG as much as FF.
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Post by a moderator on Apr 7, 2023 16:21:51 GMT
You have to roll maximum for Faith and pass several tests on that basis, Faith isn't randomly determined in Spellbreaker. The book has enough flaws without you inventing new ones. |
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Post by CharlesX on Apr 7, 2023 16:34:38 GMT
You have to roll maximum for Faith and pass several tests on that basis, Faith isn't randomly determined in Spellbreaker. The book has enough flaws without you inventing new ones. You're right, you have to pass five (!) hard or very hard rolls against Faith but you don't have to roll for determining your Faith at the start. |
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