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Post by jmisbest on Oct 16, 2020 10:44:38 GMT
Having finally wrestled it out of little Zhus hands (she said it was very good, but not as good as Island of the Lizard King, which is her favourite), I'm now part way through it. As others have mentioned, the world-building is really good, and perhaps it deserves to stand on its own outside of Titan - but as it is then the Goblins annoy me a bit, FF has millions of sub-goblin types, and they should be SKY GOBLINS or TINKER GOBLINS, rather than plain old goblins IMHO. I didn't notice the return-to-location bug, but mentally inserted "if you have not already done so" to the location options, but agree a bit of playtesting might have ironed that out. The writing is good, and the combat / reward item is clearly from someone who has a background in modern game design and the Combat Strength bonuses work well. Also is this the first time the main character has been a cop? If you mean the kind of regular cop that patrols the streets then yes, if you mean any form of cop then because in Rings of Kether you play A intergalactic Narcotics then no
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Post by dragonwarrior8 on Oct 16, 2020 16:47:36 GMT
Having finally wrestled it out of little Zhus hands (she said it was very good, but not as good as Island of the Lizard King, which is her favourite), I'm now part way through it. As others have mentioned, the world-building is really good, and perhaps it deserves to stand on its own outside of Titan - but as it is then the Goblins annoy me a bit, FF has millions of sub-goblin types, and they should be SKY GOBLINS or TINKER GOBLINS, rather than plain old goblins IMHO. I didn't notice the return-to-location bug, but mentally inserted "if you have not already done so" to the location options, but agree a bit of playtesting might have ironed that out. The writing is good, and the combat / reward item is clearly from someone who has a background in modern game design and the Combat Strength bonuses work well. Also is this the first time the main character has been a cop? If you mean the kind of regular cop that patrols the streets then yes, if you mean any form of cop then because in Rings of Kether you play A intergalactic Narcotics then no Reading this makes me wish Rings of Kether had been called "Space Cop". Andrew Chapman could have had a whole series of "Space _____" books. "Space Alien" would have been a good one.
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Post by tyrion on Oct 16, 2020 19:24:47 GMT
So should I get this now - or just ask family for it for Christmas? I got mine because I was in town and popped into an independent book shop and fancied supporting them. There's no rush really. I'm going to ask for nightmare before krampus for Christmas.
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Post by Sunil on Oct 29, 2020 22:45:17 GMT
Someone's added a solution to the "Solutions" section of the board.
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Post by johnbrawn1972 on Oct 30, 2020 20:50:10 GMT
Someone's added a solution to the "Solutions" section of the board. And not a very good one at that.
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Post by daredevil123 on Oct 30, 2020 21:24:15 GMT
Someone's added a solution to the "Solutions" section of the board. Also, the "someone" was you.
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Post by johnbrawn1972 on Nov 1, 2020 23:59:17 GMT
I have done a preliminary solution. First of all I have counted permanent as initial otherwise I simply do not know what was intended. Since when is current skill or stamina permanent? Clearly an effort has been made here to give two small initial bonuses and the rest thankfully are attack strength bonuses. The lack of skill bonuses are ferocious if you have to come a cropper with say the chest or the storm crystal. I have simply avoided these as they are too much of a headache. I have also avoided Altos as it seems more trouble than it is worth. I think a skill 11 is necessary so, with the aeronaut's helmet, you should have enough skill with the bathysphere. I do not think this has been play tested enough. I have not tested every nook and cranny with the codewords but mostly they seem to be exposition. At the end you should be powered enough to win easily so I have not included losing 2 rounds out of 3.
I have created a solution labelled 'correctly' so amalgamate as you see fit.
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Post by tyrion on Nov 2, 2020 17:23:43 GMT
Doesn't Paul Mason uses the term permanent in crimson tide, to represent your increased skill and stamina as you get older? Which is an increase to your initial scores, i.e. the scores you rolled at the start of the book. Grasping at straws here though.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Nov 2, 2020 17:29:31 GMT
Doesn't Paul Mason uses the term permanent in crimson tide, to represent your increased skill and stamina as you get older? Which is an increase to your initial scores, i.e. the scores you rolled at the start of the book. Grasping at straws here though. Yes that's right. I was thinking the same thing.
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Post by johnbrawn1972 on Nov 2, 2020 17:48:23 GMT
The two posts above seem about right.
I can make no other sense of the instructions. The writing is a little ungainly but I am going with best fit.
The ferocious lack of skill bonuses makes Caverns of the Snow Witch seem positively fair and considerate by comparison.
There are only about 3 luck bonuses as well. The greater Potion instructions are slightly hard to understand because it is unclear if the Potion restores 1 luck or you are receiving 1 luck for your lucky find.
On the whole there has been some effort made here and the influence of Jonathan Greene is palpable(An open world beginning a la Stormslayer, codewords a la Night of the Necromancer, at least some care and attention to initial bonuses and manifest care to state attack strength bonuses)
I wish the bathysphere had been play tested as the book suddenly becomes brutal. I wish the Thingie granted 9 skill to the Bathysphere and Thingie and Wotsit together granted 11 skill to the Bathysphere.
One error in the book is the Doobry which seems to suggest finding such a thing results in a bonus. I have not searched every nook and cranny but this seems to be an error as there is no reward for having an extra as far as I can tell.
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Post by Ksym77 on Nov 2, 2020 18:30:04 GMT
All in all a decent book, but was anyone else annoyed that finding out important plot points is dangerous and completely unrewarded? Going to Vizzig’s house or the Renaud house get you nothing for your investigative work but a likely SKILL penalty!
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Post by johnbrawn1972 on Nov 2, 2020 20:04:37 GMT
All in all a decent book, but was anyone else annoyed that finding out important plot points is dangerous and completely unrewarded? Going to Vizzig’s house or the Renaud house get you nothing for your investigative work but a likely SKILL penalty! This is why I have left Vizgigg to do the explaining at the end. The skill penalties stick around to say the least.
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Post by Zhu Bajie on Nov 4, 2020 18:54:12 GMT
Having finally wrestled it out of little Zhus hands (she said it was very good, but not as good as Island of the Lizard King, which is her favourite), I'm now part way through it. As others have mentioned, the world-building is really good, and perhaps it deserves to stand on its own outside of Titan - but as it is then the Goblins annoy me a bit, FF has millions of sub-goblin types, and they should be SKY GOBLINS or TINKER GOBLINS, rather than plain old goblins IMHO. I didn't notice the return-to-location bug, but mentally inserted "if you have not already done so" to the location options, but agree a bit of playtesting might have ironed that out. Having now finished the book, my solution to the bug doesn't work, as you're expected to go looking for items at the endgame. Not sure how I feel about that, perhaps if it had borrowed the return to location mechanism of Scorpion Swamp it would have worked better, or done a Deathtrap Dungeon and just let you fail without the correct items. Not sure about that. Really did enjoy the Combat mechanism with the Boss fight, with different events depending on the outcome of each 3 rounds. Very videogamey but felt fun.
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Post by johnbrawn1972 on Nov 4, 2020 23:51:34 GMT
Having finally wrestled it out of little Zhus hands (she said it was very good, but not as good as Island of the Lizard King, which is her favourite), I'm now part way through it. As others have mentioned, the world-building is really good, and perhaps it deserves to stand on its own outside of Titan - but as it is then the Goblins annoy me a bit, FF has millions of sub-goblin types, and they should be SKY GOBLINS or TINKER GOBLINS, rather than plain old goblins IMHO. I didn't notice the return-to-location bug, but mentally inserted "if you have not already done so" to the location options, but agree a bit of playtesting might have ironed that out. Having now finished the book, my solution to the bug doesn't work, as you're expected to go looking for items at the endgame. Not sure how I feel about that, perhaps if it had borrowed the return to location mechanism of Scorpion Swamp it would have worked better, or done a Deathtrap Dungeon and just let you fail without the correct items. Not sure about that. Really did enjoy the Combat mechanism with the Boss fight, with different events depending on the outcome of each 3 rounds. Very videogamey but felt fun. It feels a bit like Forest of Doom.
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Nov 7, 2020 15:05:51 GMT
I didn't notice the return-to-location bug.... I fell foul of the bug. I just flicked quickly through passages set on other islands until I gained access to Incus and cracked on as normal. I was a little peeved but not enough to make me want to give up reading on though. Really did enjoy the Combat mechanism with the Boss fight, with different events depending on the outcome of each 3 rounds. Very videogamey but felt fun. Agreed. Spot on.
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Nov 7, 2020 15:11:44 GMT
On the whole there has been some effort made here and the influence of Jonathan Greene is palpable(An open world beginning a la Stormslayer, codewords a la Night of the Necromancer, at least some care and attention to initial bonuses and manifest care to state attack strength bonuses) I wish the bathysphere had been play tested as the book suddenly becomes brutal. I wish the Thingie granted 9 skill to the Bathysphere and Thingie and Wotsit together granted 11 skill to the Bathysphere. agreed. I'd sooner the bathysphere had a set SKILL score rather than character SKILL -1. It would then be easier for the writer to balance those fights. Or, I don't know, maybe let Matix give the character an option to have a choice of upgrades before sending them off - combat upgrade, speed upgrade, some sort of extra ability... then a character with low skill gets more of a chance. Just an idea right off the top of my head.
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,678
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Nov 7, 2020 17:22:54 GMT
The Bathysphere section is just poorly conceived. It allows no bonus items to be used and no way to repair it. Not to mention you have to fight at least three Skill 9 opponents (Wraithfish 10-11) as well means a low-average hero has little chance of surviving. I would have liked an option to go straight to the sunken island and rescue any survivors there. Each survivor rescued adds an upgrade to the Bathysphere, adding 1 to its Skill and 4 to its Stamina. This would give you a chance to go back into the ocean to forage for missing items. A higher-Skilled hero could ignore this option entirely. I'd keep the Giant as a mandatory encounter but his Skill should be lower if you fight fair.
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Nov 7, 2020 20:19:37 GMT
The Bathysphere section is just poorly conceived. It allows no bonus items to be used and no way to repair it. Not to mention you have to fight at least three Skill 9 opponents (Wraithfish 10-11) as well means a low-average hero has little chance of surviving. I would have liked an option to go straight to the sunken island and rescue any survivors there. Each survivor rescued adds an upgrade to the Bathysphere, adding 1 to its Skill and 4 to its Stamina. This would give you a chance to go back into the ocean to forage for missing items. A higher-Skilled hero could ignore this option entirely. I'd keep the Giant as a mandatory encounter but his Skill should be lower if you fight fair. The lack of ability to repair IS problematic. I'd rolled a SKILL 11 character but even then the damage sustained against those SK 9 opponents was enormous. I just fudged [ok straight up cheated in] the fight with that Wraithfish. Maybe the bathysphere fights could have been a bit more like the fight with the cyclops in FF16? The extra paras needed for this could have come by cutting out all the those instances where you can [and WILL, of course] ask about 5 different questions to friends and allies. Just have an info dump if needs be. If given the options 'do you ask about the shard if you have not done so already?' or 'do you leave and continue on your way?' ... it's not really much of a choice at all, is it? So use those spare paragraph numbers for something else.
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,678
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Nov 7, 2020 21:54:56 GMT
The Bathysphere section is just poorly conceived. It allows no bonus items to be used and no way to repair it. Not to mention you have to fight at least three Skill 9 opponents (Wraithfish 10-11) as well means a low-average hero has little chance of surviving. I would have liked an option to go straight to the sunken island and rescue any survivors there. Each survivor rescued adds an upgrade to the Bathysphere, adding 1 to its Skill and 4 to its Stamina. This would give you a chance to go back into the ocean to forage for missing items. A higher-Skilled hero could ignore this option entirely. I'd keep the Giant as a mandatory encounter but his Skill should be lower if you fight fair. The lack of ability to repair IS problematic. I'd rolled a SKILL 11 character but even then the damage sustained against those SK 9 opponents was enormous. I just fudged [ok straight up cheated in] the fight with that Wraithfish. Maybe the bathysphere fights could have been a bit more like the fight with the cyclops in FF16? The extra paras needed for this could have come by cutting out all the those instances where you can [and WILL, of course] ask about 5 different questions to friends and allies. Just have an info dump if needs be. If given the options 'do you ask about the shard if you have not done so already?' or 'do you leave and continue on your way?' ... it's not really much of a choice at all, is it? So use those spare paragraph numbers for something else. Like I said, the last bit is a lot like Gates of Death in presentation.
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Post by The Count on Nov 12, 2020 1:22:05 GMT
This is quite pleasant. Rhianna clearly knows how to write. However, it is the 3rd book in a row to be rather infantile in places (thingy, doobie and wotsit) and while nowhere near as bad as the previous pair, it is clearly aimed at a much younger audience - I imagine some parents not familiar with the series getting a shock when the kiddies go from this to House of Hell... At times it seems more like a computer game outline than a gamebook, and the bug is annoying. The wheelies were a nice shout out. The internal art was lovely, though none of it stuck in my mind om the same way that some older FF art did - and the same can be said for the book as I can't see myself picking this up to play when I can instead choose Citadel, City of Thieves or Shadow Warriors...
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Post by Ed on Nov 13, 2020 13:56:25 GMT
Its quite an enjoyable read overall but far too easy and juvenile in tone.
And I very quickly wearied of the goblin characters speaking in modern jargon.
That just kills it stone dead for me.
Sorry Rhianna.
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Post by petch on Nov 13, 2020 19:48:53 GMT
Yeah, I basically agree with the above 2 posts. Most of the books in the series are sophisticated enough that I forget I'm reading young adult fiction...with this one it always felt like I was reading a kids' book which detracted a lot from the enjoyment for me.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,458
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Nov 16, 2020 12:26:22 GMT
I beat the book on my second attempt. Some thoughts with some mild spoilers:
The Good: The writing is of a high standard. There's quite a few good jokes - I loved the goblin pie and looking for a thingie, wotsit and doobry. I know some people have said this humour is a bit childish but I found it more absurdist - Rhianna is a Pratchett after all! I would probably compare it with Demons of the Deep with its toolfish and the like. It's certainly of a higher standard than the Bum-Faced Monster (but then, what isn't?).
There are quite a few weapons with different bonuses and potions that give various buffs. There are also some rules for fighting with a companion. Normally, I take a dim view of too many bonuses and penalties to keep track of, but it's well done here, showing a good understanding of the FF mechanics and things are kept simple enough that it doesn't become too overwhelming.
The finale is quite possibly the best final boss fight I've come across in FF. Absolutely loved it. Engaging, humorous and with again some great use of the FF mechanics.
There are some quite atmospheric segments too - the wraithfish was genuinely quite a creepy encounter and I actually found the whole underwater section very well written.
The characters are likeable too though sadly none of them stay around long enough to make much of an impact. The story is engaging too, allowing you to slowly piece together what's going on.
The Bad: This is a problem I've had with all the new FF books since Night of the Necromancer - it just goes on and on and on. I'm not sure why the current crop of FF authors think its necessary that we read 300+ sections in one playthrough. Apart from it being tedious, it pretty much kills replayability. Apart from maybe one or two minor areas, I think I explored absolutely everything in 2 playthroughs. The only real variety is varying the order you do the first 3 islands (and it doesn't seem like this makes much of a difference - indeed the islands feel very samey: meet a pal if this is home island then explore 2 areas in whichever order you prefer before flying on). There are probably encounters you can skip but you're unlikely to do so unless you know the book very well so that hardly leads to any replayability.
On a related note, there are far too many filler sections where you are asked if you're sure you want to continue with your present course of action. Eliminating these would probably take it down to 375 sections.
And the combats are too hard. The wraithfish, while a well-written encounter, is a very nasty battle and there are couple of other tough ones too. I just about scraped through with stats of 11-16-11. True there are one or two penalties I could have avoided and perhaps I could have been less frugal with potions but I still think anyone with 10 or lower Skill will struggle.
Apart from combat and Stamina loss from elsewhere though, there's very little else that can go wrong for you. There's a few items to find but you can only really miss them if you don't explore everywhere which the book encourages you to do anyway. There's a mystery to uncover but any amount of blundering should reveal what's going on and anyway it doesn't really matter when it comes to beating the book. There's a few puzzles but nothing you actually need to solve. There didn't seem to be much in the way of instant deaths. There was one incredibly obvious trap which I avoided - maybe that would lead to an instant death but I don't feel overly inclined to try again to find out.
The Ugly: The illustrations are so-so. There's some good ones like the dragon fruit (a rather inspired monster) but as a whole they feel a bit flat - to be fair to Eva Eskelinen, I like her style but the greyscale of the Scholastic books does her no favours. I'd probably rank her above Vlado Krizan but Robert Ball remains the best of the Scholastic artists IMO. The cutesy cover is thankfully a bit of an anomaly.
While Pangaria is an intriguing concept, I'm not really sure enough is made of it. The islands feel a bit empty and there was little to really make the few people you bump into feel like they were part of a very unique part of Titan. The fishing island and the cloud-farming island made the most of the concept while the commerce island felt particularly lacking in atmosphere.
I probably could have done without different meals healing different amounts of Stamina - it's just a bit heavy on the note taking. There are also copious amounts of codewords to record but their impact on proceedings is fairly low. As there were also a lot of weapons and potions to keep track of, I felt the book a bit too heavy on the note-taking front which added to the overall tedium.
Finally, like all the Scholastic books, it's very sloppy. There's typos, instructions for fighting multiple enemies at the same time are missing, it allows you to loop encounters where it really shouldn't and there's one page in a completely different font. Stuff like this really shouldn't get past an editor.
Conclusion A lot to like but also a lot that annoyed me. I certainly don't think it was the disaster of Gates of Death and would be quite glad to see Pratchett return to pen another FF book (and Eskelinen to illustrate it - maybe ditching the greyscale). But FF is in a funk at present and I feel the current authors need to move away from these "see everything in one playthrough" books and actually offer some mutually exclusive paths and genuine exploration. Otherwise, it's just a novel with some dice rolling.
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Post by johnbrawn1972 on Jan 11, 2021 0:18:43 GMT
Does anyone else have any ideas about the best route?
I have posted my solution but I am not sure about this one. I feel the book was written by someone who did not understand gamebook mechanics rendering this one as strangely linear as say a Livingstone book.
There are plenty of nooks and crannies to search out but they seem to leave you with no clear advantage in gamebook terms only some exposition as to what is happening.
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Post by vastariner on Mar 20, 2021 22:29:45 GMT
The Bathysphere section is just poorly conceived. It allows no bonus items to be used and no way to repair it. Not to mention you have to fight at least three Skill 9 opponents (Wraithfish 10-11) as well means a low-average hero has little chance of surviving. I found that something of an advantage; it made the Bathysphere thing something of a tightrope, you had to carefully manage the stamina until you got to Nimbus.
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Post by vastariner on Mar 20, 2021 22:40:38 GMT
As others have mentioned, the world-building is really good, and perhaps it deserves to stand on its own outside of Titan - but as it is then the Goblins annoy me a bit, FF has millions of sub-goblin types, and they should be SKY GOBLINS or TINKER GOBLINS, rather than plain old goblins IMHO. To anyone else on Titan, they would be TINKER GOBLINS. But for the people of Pangaria, they don't know of any other kind.
As for the rest of the book:
-mostly agree with kieran on the plus points - the boss fight is excellent, buffing up a giant (that looks wrong) was a fascinating twist [although how come you don't get the benefit of the traditional rules when you face more than one opponent of basically getting in a free attack?], the world-building smart, and there's an explanation why this bizarre locale has never made it into canon;
-the book suffers a bit from Livingstonism - "do you want to ask another question?" Durr;
-there is some reference padding - see the above question bit. E.g. there is no time penalty for lingering too long, or any mechanism where you can only ask 1 question so need to pick the right one. Hence one conversation can take up 5 references where you just click through;
-by the end you could have enough food to open up an Aldi;
-I enjoyed the humour of some of the names - a touch of the Aristophanes/Edward Lear for the dragon fruit;
-the bits where "you have no gold, so you can't get off the island, game over" does not ring convincingly. You're a bloody cop, commandeer the charging machine;
-and the ending points pretty strongly to a sequel, which I would relish seeing.
A good one. Certainly upper half, maybe not quite upper quarter. I think I want to see more of this alternate territory.
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,678
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Mar 21, 2021 0:10:09 GMT
The Bathysphere section is just poorly conceived. It allows no bonus items to be used and no way to repair it. Not to mention you have to fight at least three Skill 9 opponents (Wraithfish 10-11) as well means a low-average hero has little chance of surviving. I found that something of an advantage; it made the Bathysphere thing something of a tightrope, you had to carefully manage the stamina until you got to Nimbus. Odd that you should say that. Since the Bathysphere uses its own Stamina, there is literally nothing you can do to manage it other than roll your dice better.
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Post by vastariner on Mar 21, 2021 9:32:57 GMT
I've not played it enough to see whether there are alternative routes without risking the Bathysphere, but it gives you the feeling, when playing, that you have to be very very careful. And indeed in reality how on earth WOULD you restore the machine?
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,678
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Mar 24, 2021 15:13:13 GMT
I've not played it enough to see whether there are alternative routes without risking the Bathysphere, but it gives you the feeling, when playing, that you have to be very very careful. And indeed in reality how on earth WOULD you restore the machine? You DO come from a peoples who's technology is highly advanced and engineering does seem like one of the skills you would have. You or one of your found buddies could simply REPAIR it. As mentioned before, it doesn't feel too out of place if the people you rescued from the sunken island fixed the machine before you took it out venturing again. Have something like: 'Restore 4 Stamina to the Bathysphere for every person you have rescued.'
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Post by vastariner on Mar 24, 2021 19:51:37 GMT
But you can't repair it underwater very easily. The tech does not extend to wetsuits. And indeed they don't have many bathyspheres otherwise they could have sent a few down. It's probably at the edge of what's possible. Like the Golem.
One thing that's slightly frustrating is that I like the idea of having your own home island, but in practice it does not make any difference, other than to make the language of a few paragraphs slightly different. I would have preferred three different adventures based on your home island, with different McGuffins perhaps and different challenges at the end.
A good bit of writing though is what happens to Boreas if you win...
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