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Post by The Count on Mar 3, 2021 1:14:59 GMT
Like, I still think Richard Ayoade is the best presenter The Crystal Maze has ever had, and have a thick enough skin to accept that literally no one else agrees with me on that point! I think he tries too hard. No one could top Richard O'Brien and poor Ed knew this which enabled him to excel in his own way. Put Ayoade in a different show based around his "unique" personality and he would excel. For what it's worth though, on the subject of Sorcery!, in the rankings thread Wilf said this: The Count is obviously one, and I think I'm probably the other (I gave Hills and Khare a 4, Serpents a 5 and CoK a 7). I enjoyed it, but thought it was far from the best that the series had to offer. So I can confidently say that I straddle both sides of the debate like a colossus. Or sit on the fence like a wuss. One of the two. The Keir Starmer of the forum! Wilf did really well in disguising who voted what. I wouldn't be surprised if he was secretly a fellow Sorcery! hater. We need a good :stirthepot: smiley
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Post by The Count on Mar 3, 2021 1:22:45 GMT
55 Sky Lord 5 7 9 9 3 8 2 6 TOTAL 41 / FF 5
Could it finally be a book I actually enjoy? And its... Sky Lord?!? Why, yes it is! This is absolutely insane. It isn't badly written, especially compared to some of the other efforts. The storyline makes no real sense, though the final revenge of L'Bastian is darkly hilarious, especially now the current fashion is for self absorbed idiots to mutilate themselves for social media likes. Most of the encounters are similarly deranged and the roll pitch yaw puzzle section is suitably challenging, and not easy to remember for replays. The trick to this is to remember that the author either wasn't taking it seriously, was on a strange combination of dodgy substances, or wanted to highlight how little attention Puffin paid to the content of the actual books themselves (all too evident with the shocking errors in the later books). The standard fights lean towards being the easier side, while the ship fights are harder making the book fairly balanced. The art is OK and fitting for the book. On my first ever read, I wasn't that impressed. Now, I can appreciate the madness a lot more. I think I may have ranked this too low and the FF ranking is fairer. This is the only book out of the original 1-59 run that I actively wish had not been written and that the space had been taken up by something else. Was it aiming for 'Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy' and fell short? Or some zany madcap whacky humour? It didn't work for me at the time that's for sure. Maybe it'll be funnier 30-odd years later but i doubt it. The roll pitch and yaw 'space combat' was like playing a game I didn't know the rules to. Fancy a game of chess where you don't know how to move the pieces? How hilarious would that be, eh? Random chance and random death. It's merely a memory test for subsequent readings. Think of what could have been done - potentially a small minigame like the tank combat in Space Assassins, or even the car chase in FF15. Or something else but with the feel of a proper dogfight. I cannot second-guess what the author was doing - none of the scenarios you outlined above cut the mustard for me. My personal take is that it was uninspired hack work. Just toss out a load of muck for some kids to read. I hope I'm wrong about that. Note - he didn't write another FF book so I think Puffin were paying attention at some point but by then it was probably too late - they should have rejected the book. And here's the worst part. It was the last FF science fiction book. If [and I do stress if] Sky Lord drove a hawthorn stake through the heart of science fiction in Fighting Fantasy from then on, then it ought to be right down there at the bottom of the pile. The Roll / Pitch / Yaw battle is actually very cleverly done. It took me years to appreciate the insanity of Sky Lord. I wasn't a fan of it when I was younger - or ANY of the Sci-Fi ones for that matter. Overall, they are badly written compared to the Fantasy ones and the format doesn't really suit. I'm amazed any more were accepted and published after the utter disaster that was Starship Traveller - then again, almost anything was an improvement after that drek...
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Post by sleepyscholar on Mar 3, 2021 2:51:11 GMT
Like, I still think Richard Ayoade is the best presenter The Crystal Maze has ever had, and have a thick enough skin to accept that literally no one else agrees with me on that point! I think he tries too hard. No one could top Richard O'Brien and poor Ed knew this which enabled him to excel in his own way. Put Ayoade in a different show based around his "unique" personality and he would excel. Great idea! You could call it something like, I don't know, Man To Man with Dean Lerner.Incidentally, since we were discussing lovefests for certain books, and skewed voting patterns, consider that I may not be alone in generally not voting where I think it would be unreasonable. I have not voted against Sorcery!, for example, not because I like it, but because it's too long since I looked at it. Also, there's a slight element of possible self-aggrandisement in dissing books by other writers. I'd happily do this for books by Ian Livingstone, but it would be unfair on other writers, I feel, and so better not to even do it for the Livingstone books. Deathtrap Dungeon I consider almost parodic in its embrace of so many tropes I hated in the genre, which was why my first published FF was a Deathtrap Dungeon parody/sequel featuring a proto-Riddling Reaver by the name of Jai'phrai Aa'cha. So again, voting against it strikes me as something I shouldn't do. Your point about the ridiculous nature of fan reaction is well made. Given that an excess of affect is pretty much what defines a fan (did you notice the subtle jink there where I got rid of my FF author hat, and slipped on the fan studies researcher one?), it's not a surprise that fan forums should so frequently boil over with what are, essentially, irrational arguments. I mean, even though I've never got to see them live, I think I count as a Radiohead fan. I was in a Radiohead tribute band for 5 years! And yet one of the main results of having to trawl the web for details about Radiohead (when did Jonny switch from an SD-1 to an OD-3? That sort of thing) is that I heartily despise the vast majority of Radiohead fans... while simultaneously recognising that my despising them is pretty much as irrational as the behaviour of theirs that makes me despise them! So on this forum, I see what I consider irrational behaviour, and for the most part I enjoy it. Anyone who stands up for Luke Sharp books? Yeah, that's something to be celebrated. Vagsancho, and his Crypt of the Sorcerer obsession? Charming, in its own way. Let's face it, I've benefited myself from this very phenomenon: not financially, but in terms of people saying nice things about books. When I was active in RPG fandom I was a bloody awful arguer. I mocked players of games I looked down on ( Dungeons & Dragons being the most well-known of these). I actively liked fanzines that were unnecessarily provocative and abusive -- and when I worked at Games Workshop I helped insert the hidden message 'Sod off Bryan Ansell' into the contents list of the last issue of White Dwarf I edited (Bryan Ansell being the Citadel supremo who had taken over GW and decided to move us to Nottingham). I genuinely did get motivated by a sort of righteous anger about how role-playing should be dragged out of the infantile commercialised ghetto it was in, and turned into a liberating folk art. And now I look back at that mostly with amusement. But that's the sort of things fans do. And let's face it, it's still loads better than believing a load of bollocks about elite paedophile rings in the non-existent basements of pizza parlours, isn't it?
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Mar 3, 2021 4:59:43 GMT
Same with the Ana-land vs Anal-land thing. You and Mudworm see the latter, but the rest of us see the former so it's not an issue for us in the way it is for you. This reminded me of a post by fallingmast that read, I think, "Analand. Huh-huh huh-huh. That is all." so I thought I'd spend 20 seconds looking it up to show there are others. After 45 minutes of failure sustained only by OCD-tendencies, I'm inclined to think that this post was one of the ones that I couldn't save from TUFFF and which has fallen into the abyss.
Why my memory has seen fit to preserve that comment in particular for nine years and counting I'm not sure. Anyway, during fallingmast's brief visit to this place a few years ago, he did include this line in his solution to CoK which makes a similar point: "Remember to start at ref 237 to get the clue for avoiding being recognised as 'the Analander' (sounds like a Belgian pornstar)."
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Post by petch on Mar 3, 2021 9:11:40 GMT
I do appreciate all the discussion that has taken place, though it was getting a bit stale with the Sorcery! lovefest. To be fair, while there was some appreciation going on, the bulk of that particular conversation was a rather more in-depth discussion of bumholes that you would usually find outside of proctological and/or special interest gentleman's websites. Or, um, so I'd imagine. Cough.
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Mar 4, 2021 20:21:30 GMT
When I was active in RPG fandom I was a bloody awful arguer. I mocked players of games I looked down on ( Dungeons & Dragons being the most well-known of these). I actively liked fanzines that were unnecessarily provocative and abusive -- and when I worked at Games Workshop I helped insert the hidden message 'Sod off Bryan Ansell' into the contents list of the last issue of White Dwarf I edited (Bryan Ansell being the Citadel supremo who had taken over GW and decided to move us to Nottingham). I genuinely did get motivated by a sort of righteous anger about how role-playing should be dragged out of the infantile commercialised ghetto it was in, and turned into a liberating folk art. And now I look back at that mostly with amusement. But that's the sort of things fans do. My first White Dwarf was number 91 so the 'hidden message' was a bit before my time. I do own the issue with it in though and it amuses me to see it. Below is an extract from an interview with Bryan Ansell from a few years ago which you may or may not have seen before: RoC80s: For many, many years one of the more infamous things associated with your tenure in charge was the 'SOD OFF BRYAN ANSELL' in White Dwarf issue 77. Care to share your side of the story?
BA: When I took over running games workshop all those years ago, the first priority was to close down the London office. All they did was publish White Dwarf, distribute imported American products and complain that Warhammer was puerile. We had taken over all other publishing duties at Citadel some time earlier. Space was expensive in London and Games Workshop was extraordinarily overstaffed. However, things were moving along nicely in Eastwood and at the Nottingham Studio and we felt that we would be able to find useful work in Nottinghamshire for any or all of the London staff who wanted to move.
In the event: ten or so of the London staff came to us.
The White Dwarf staff didn’t move up. This wasn’t entirely a surprise, as they had savagely resisted our attempts to put Warhammer material into WD. Despite the quite obvious fact that the only thing keeping Games Workshop rolling was our awful fantasy battle game. I suppose that “sod off ” is the sophisticated London gamers equivalent of “thanks very much for the offer: but we’re going to have to pass this time.”
Unfortunately, we did have to fire a number of the ex-London staff for stealing not long after they joined us. Mac Coxhead was in charge of one half of the factory shop floor at the time, and would randomly check departing staff for hidden lead with his metal detector. However, we did gain the services of Jervis Johnson and Lindsey to de la Doux Paton: both of whom were to contribute greatly to Games Workshop’s future. Any comments? I was surprised at the people nicking stuff and getting scanned business.
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Post by vastariner on Mar 4, 2021 20:35:08 GMT
Would Mac Coxhead be the inspiration for the Macommonians, who try to steal your spaceship in Starship Traveller?
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Post by tyrion on Mar 4, 2021 21:22:26 GMT
Mac Coxhead? Was he friends with the Analander?
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Post by sleepyscholar on Mar 5, 2021 1:29:04 GMT
My first White Dwarf was number 91 so the 'hidden message' was a bit before my time. I do own the issue with it in though and it amuses me to see it. Below is an extract from an interview with Bryan Ansell from a few years ago which you may or may not have seen before: RoC80s: For many, many years one of the more infamous things associated with your tenure in charge was the 'SOD OFF BRYAN ANSELL' in White Dwarf issue 77. Care to share your side of the story?
BA: When I took over running games workshop all those years ago, the first priority was to close down the London office. All they did was publish White Dwarf, distribute imported American products and complain that Warhammer was puerile. We had taken over all other publishing duties at Citadel some time earlier. Space was expensive in London and Games Workshop was extraordinarily overstaffed. However, things were moving along nicely in Eastwood and at the Nottingham Studio and we felt that we would be able to find useful work in Nottinghamshire for any or all of the London staff who wanted to move.
In the event: ten or so of the London staff came to us.
The White Dwarf staff didn’t move up. This wasn’t entirely a surprise, as they had savagely resisted our attempts to put Warhammer material into WD. Despite the quite obvious fact that the only thing keeping Games Workshop rolling was our awful fantasy battle game. I suppose that “sod off ” is the sophisticated London gamers equivalent of “thanks very much for the offer: but we’re going to have to pass this time.”
Unfortunately, we did have to fire a number of the ex-London staff for stealing not long after they joined us. Mac Coxhead was in charge of one half of the factory shop floor at the time, and would randomly check departing staff for hidden lead with his metal detector. However, we did gain the services of Jervis Johnson and Lindsey to de la Doux Paton: both of whom were to contribute greatly to Games Workshop’s future. Any comments? I was surprised at the people nicking stuff and getting scanned business. An interview with Bryan Ansell (and Jervis) also appeared in an issue of my fanzine the year after the incident, though oddly enough he refrained from describing it in such aggrieved terms. But I think Bryan's words speak for themselves. They were determined to close down the London office and reduce the workforce, he says. So based on that alone, affecting surprise at resentment towards him seems a little naïve. Actually, the one with the most cause to be resentful was Steve Williams, who had been given a specific assurance that GW would not be moving the publishing department to Nottingham, and had then gone ahead and bought a flat in London. And am I the only one who finds it funny that the managing director of a company should be subject to a 'savage' resistance from underlings. I mean, poor little Bryan, being 'savaged' by us two hunky ex-fanzine editors. What actually happened is that we got sent material that we thought was shit and told to print it, and we foolishly believed that we were still editing White Dwarf, not a Citadel catalogue. Notice also the deliberate ambiguity over the 'offer' of work up in Nottingham. In my case, the 'offer' consisted of 'We're making you redundant from March. But you can apply for a job in Nottingham if you like'. Actually, GW were right to get rid of Ian Marsh and me (and maybe even Peter Darvill-Evans, our boss). We were too idealistic. We joined GW -- and worked for rather lower than market salaries -- because we loved role-playing games, which was not a useful trait in a company that wanted to ditch role-playing games and make its money from wargaming (and it did, didn't it?). The practical business reasons Bryan cites in the interview are all true. But if you look at what he said, you can perhaps understand why we would want to be shot of the company he had taken over. The transparent attempt to suggest that Ian Marsh and I were thieves because, well, we were London staff and some former London staff were later done for thievery? That chimes with how, at the time, we felt he went about running the company. Incidentally, as FF fans I hope you noticed that Bryan elided you from history. GW Publications published not only White Dwarf but also Warlock (as well as The Good Games Guide, which was the catalogue publication that Ansell apparently wanted, but which he preferred to dump and turn White Dwarf into). Unlike GGG, Warlock made the transition to Nottingham, and was, of course, edited by Marc Gascoigne, who was the only editorial-side London staffer to go up there. How many issues did it survive? Incidentally, the nicking stuff doesn't surprise me. The warehouse staff at GW London were always a little bit whee, a little bit whoo, if you take my Fast Show reference. There was a pool table sitting in front of the clock. So you could have a game of pool and if you noticed the boss on his way, you could clock off before he got there. That sort of thing.
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Post by The Editor (Alex B) on Mar 5, 2021 20:18:28 GMT
I genuinely like some of the wackiness of Sly Lord. The segment with Zud's cylinder I found particularly amusing. As a kid SL was just another sci-fi adventure in the range, no more different or wacky than any of the previous SF offerings. Plus it has an awesome cover!
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Mar 5, 2021 21:30:15 GMT
I genuinely like some of the wackiness of Sly Lord. The segment with Zud's cylinder I found particularly amusing. As a kid SL was just another sci-fi adventure in the range, no more different or wacky than any of the previous SF offerings. Plus it has an awesome cover! Zud's cylinder is riffing off an idea found in The Eyes of the Overworld by Jack Vance. The book itself [Sky Lord] is dedicated to one of the characters in it, Cugel, so I know the author read it. I recommend the book if you can find it.
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Mar 6, 2021 18:02:47 GMT
What actually happened is that we got sent material that we thought was shit and told to print it, and we foolishly believed that we were still editing White Dwarf, not a Citadel catalogue.... ....We joined GW -- and worked for rather lower than market salaries -- because we loved role-playing games, which was not a useful trait in a company that wanted to ditch role-playing games and make its money from wargaming (and it did, didn't it?) White Dwarf morphed into a version of the Citadel Journal in the end, which was very much concerned only with GW products like Warhammer and Citadel Miniatures. As an ex- or current wargamer at the time did you see any future for a combining of roleplaying with Warhammer? I mean strongly scenario-based fantasy wargaming rather than 2000 points from an army list clashing in the middle of the table with 2000 points from the other side. After all, this is how the game started - look at MacDeath, Thistlewood, The Magnificent Sven and Bloodbath at Orc's Drift which all had strong roleplaying elements to them insofar as you are playing the leader of a faction with specific aims and motivations. Was it inevitable that WH should move away from this and into competition-based gaming and points values? Issue 76 (while you were still at the magazine) had the Glen Woe scenario connected to the MacDeath Warhammer boxset in which assassins seek to infiltrate where the King is staying and kill him, with Orc soldiers cutting off the escape routes. Though I never played it at the time, I thought it looked quite good and certainly gave me food for thought when I got hold of a back-issue years later. If it's any consolation, the change in WD was noticed and not liked by the 5th and 6th formers at the school roleplaying club I went to in the late 80's. So you were missed. Incidentally, as FF fans I hope you noticed that Bryan elided you from history. GW Publications published not only White Dwarf but also Warlock (as well as The Good Games Guide, which was the catalogue publication that Ansell apparently wanted, but which he preferred to dump and turn White Dwarf into). Unlike GGG, Warlock made the transition to Nottingham, and was, of course, edited by Marc Gascoigne, who was the only editorial-side London staffer to go up there. How many issues did it survive? Not many. Warlock issues 10, 11, 12 and 13 came out after the move to Nottingham. The last Warlock came out November 1986 - hardly a time when gamebooks were finished and the market dead. Was there even a pretence of moving Warlock over to WD? (apart from 'Derek the Troll' which doesn't count) I don't think there were any articles focussing on gamebooks nor was Warlock in any way blended into WD. There was a solo gamebook scenario done by Carl Sargent in WD 106 but this was very much a one-off and a surprise . A pity. Even I noticed that WD was not covering the whole 'hobby' by the time I started reading it because the letters pages had people writing in asking about LARP, PBMs and fanzines.
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Post by sleepyscholar on Mar 7, 2021 3:36:30 GMT
As an ex- or current wargamer at the time did you see any future for a combining of roleplaying with Warhammer? I mean strongly scenario-based fantasy wargaming rather than 2000 points from an army list clashing in the middle of the table with 2000 points from the other side. After all, this is how the game started - look at MacDeath, Thistlewood, The Magnificent Sven and Bloodbath at Orc's Drift which all had strong roleplaying elements to them insofar as you are playing the leader of a faction with specific aims and motivations. Was it inevitable that WH should move away from this and into competition-based gaming and points values? Interesting question. I think at the time I was too close to things to see the big picture. It was role-playing that interested me, and specifically the elements of role-playing that were escaping from the plastic shroud of D&D. But of course the origin of D&D, and all role-playing, was that Napoleonic wargame in which players role-played officers, which Arneson then applied to a fantasy game. Whether it was inevitable that Warhammer would turn into what it did, I don't know, but I think it's clear that the route taken was by far the most profitable one. Look at the way that GCitadelW was happy to ditch the role-playing side of Warhammer. I mean, they wouldn't have let James Wallis and the others anywhere near it if they thought there was any chance of it making serious money. Integrating the role-playing and wargaming is, as you suggest, a much more interesting direction of travel, but not a commercial one, I fear. Oh no, your memory is playing tricks on you. That can't have happened, because as you well know, the 'White Dwarf staff' (Messrs Marsh and Mason) savagely resisted any attempt to put Warhammer material in the magazine. Again, gamebooks were regarded as irrelevant by Nottingham. I suspect that Warlock only continued going for a few issues for two reasons: to keep Ian and Steve, and maybe more importantly Marc happy (given his heavy involvement in FF), and because it turned a profit and spread costs. But Nottingham's strategy was to move out of the 'hobby games' industry, and instead create the 'Warhammer' industry, and that required focus. White Dwarf would shed too many readers if it just ditched all non- Warhammer stuff at one go, but if you look at it over the run from 78 to 90 or so, there is a steady attrition to wean readers off variety and on to the new sole focus. I remember my surprise on seeing issue 73 of Warlock in my local bookshop shortly after I arrived in Japan. As you imply, Warlock could probably have survived as a magazine in the UK too.
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Post by vastariner on Mar 7, 2021 14:00:57 GMT
I genuinely like some of the wackiness of Sly Lord. The segment with Zud's cylinder I found particularly amusing. As a kid SL was just another sci-fi adventure in the range, no more different or wacky than any of the previous SF offerings. Plus it has an awesome cover! For me (also as a kid) it stood out as being completely tonto. There was at least an internal logic to the other SF books. Decisions had consequences, even if you could not predict what they were, just as in any other FF book. Sky Lord gave you no clues at all. It was totally unlike any other FF book, it was more along the lines of Star Challenge, where the book changes with every decision.
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Post by petch on Mar 7, 2021 18:23:46 GMT
It was the bit where the bandolier-sporting space jellyfish start talking to you like Mexican banditos that did it for me. Despite myself I can't bring myself to dislike something that out there.
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Post by The Count on Mar 8, 2021 2:01:59 GMT
As an ex- or current wargamer at the time did you see any future for a combining of roleplaying with Warhammer? I mean strongly scenario-based fantasy wargaming rather than 2000 points from an army list clashing in the middle of the table with 2000 points from the other side. After all, this is how the game started - look at MacDeath, Thistlewood, The Magnificent Sven and Bloodbath at Orc's Drift which all had strong roleplaying elements to them insofar as you are playing the leader of a faction with specific aims and motivations. Was it inevitable that WH should move away from this and into competition-based gaming and points values? Interesting question. I think at the time I was too close to things to see the big picture. It was role-playing that interested me, and specifically the elements of role-playing that were escaping from the plastic shroud of D&D. But of course the origin of D&D, and all role-playing, was that Napoleonic wargame in which players role-played officers, which Arneson then applied to a fantasy game. Whether it was inevitable that Warhammer would turn into what it did, I don't know, but I think it's clear that the route taken was by far the most profitable one. Look at the way that GCitadelW was happy to ditch the role-playing side of Warhammer. I mean, they wouldn't have let James Wallis and the others anywhere near it if they thought there was any chance of it making serious money. Integrating the role-playing and wargaming is, as you suggest, a much more interesting direction of travel, but not a commercial one, I fear. Oh no, your memory is playing tricks on you. That can't have happened, because as you well know, the 'White Dwarf staff' (Messrs Marsh and Mason) savagely resisted any attempt to put Warhammer material in the magazine. Again, gamebooks were regarded as irrelevant by Nottingham. I suspect that Warlock only continued going for a few issues for two reasons: to keep Ian and Steve, and maybe more importantly Marc happy (given his heavy involvement in FF), and because it turned a profit and spread costs. But Nottingham's strategy was to move out of the 'hobby games' industry, and instead create the 'Warhammer' industry, and that required focus. White Dwarf would shed too many readers if it just ditched all non- Warhammer stuff at one go, but if you look at it over the run from 78 to 90 or so, there is a steady attrition to wean readers off variety and on to the new sole focus. I remember my surprise on seeing issue 73 of Warlock in my local bookshop shortly after I arrived in Japan. As you imply, Warlock could probably have survived as a magazine in the UK too. I come at WD from a very different perspective as I only started reading White Dwarf when a friend would lend me his issues where they had new quests for (Advanced) HeroQuest, though I had skimmed a few more, including one with a rather impressive Undead army. It only became a regular monthly read from WD153 when I finally persuaded my parents to take me to GW to buy a Troll (the Marsh Troll shown in The Eyes of Chaos adventure specifically but they never had it - I got two Marauder Trolls instead as they were £1 less than a single Blood Bowl Troll) to use in one of my own designed quests and I bought it to read on the bus home - which became the start of my interest in Warhammer. When I started looking at back issues, I was confused with some of the content in the older issues, and I would only buy them if they had HQ / AHQ or a Battle Report. To me, it was never anything but a Citadel / Warhammer magazine. I only discovered Warlock a long time later and have only ever read naughty pdfs of it.
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Post by The Count on Mar 8, 2021 2:03:41 GMT
It was the bit where the bandolier-sporting space jellyfish start talking to you like Mexican banditos that did it for me. Despite myself I can't bring myself to dislike something that out there. The utter insanity of Sky Lord is what makes it entertaining and enjoyable - and it never seems childish. Just very removed from reality.
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Post by petch on Mar 19, 2021 11:40:33 GMT
9 The Crimson Tide 8 19 19 16 10 18 7 9 TOTAL 90 / FF 9
One of the more experimental books, and in some ways one of the strangest. Starting as a child, you are given the chance to grow and develop as the plot unfolds, and you get to control your destiny. Pretty zen stuff. The oriental influence is evident, without dropping into tired cliches or stereotypes (something SotS didn't quite manage) and the prose if full of lovely details that help you to really soak up the story. Unfortunately, this was one of the only books that any kind of editor bothered looking at, and in doing so made a mess of it by failing to read (and from reading said editors own tedious tome, its clearly not something he is good at), making one choice lead to an impossible fight, when it should merely be a very difficult fight. Luckily, you can win without having to defeat this enemy. What you are otherwise faced with is a complex puzzle that requires careful thought about your options. Enemies are reasonably balanced - you don't start facing truly strong ones until your Skill has increased - and a good mix of human and creatures. The Ferocity stat is well implemented, and this is one of the few books where codewords are not only incredibly well implemented, it's very difficult to tell if a codeword is good or bad. There is a minor carry-on moment where the King can offer you his wood if you make certain choices. Possibly quite forward thinking in creating that path. The continuity nods to BVP, SotS and the Riddling Reaver are subtle enough to enhance the book - you get a sense of a much wider world of which you know little to nothing about as you are focused on your own little corner of it - and you don't have to have read any previous FF books either making them nice easter eggs for fans (and no unsubtle tour guide of the Abyss either, thankfully). When you gradually place the bits of the puzzle together and everything clicks, you have an incredibly zen moment - and this can happen in at least 3 of the endings. You can also choose some the opposite path if you so wish. Aside from the Deaths Messenger looking like a glow in the dark cartoon sticker you would get free from Weetabix or Cornflakes, the art is fantastic, really drawing you further into the plot. The cover is interesting as it seems to be more of a statement of an alternative ending instead of an actual scene from the book, again quite clever world building. The only thing dragging this down is that the aging aspect doesn't fully work. Granted, it would make for a very long book if there was too much detail, and the revelation that the author thinks the true ending happens about a third of the way through. Despite being tough with low stats, this is one that can be explored extensively on numerous occasions. The Crimson Tide was an entry I really feel I should have enjoyed more than I actually did. I really wanted to like it more because of its inventiveness, its ambition, and its fine writing. I didn't, because it was too fricking hard. To explain: there were other lots of other books in the series where I enjoyed the difficulty (Creature, House, Siege). Even though they took multiple playthroughs, with each go I felt I was taking baby steps towards cracking the puzzle. With Tide, I honestly couldn't work out where I was going wrong, what I needed to do. Granted, this was because of the very clever way that it concealed its solution, but it did it so well that after the umpteenth attempt where I still didn't feel like I was getting anywhere, it started to feel like I was enduring it rather than enjoying it. I also got the impression that the required code words were supposed to have been given at key moments on your character's road to some kind of spiritual awakening, which would have helped me with finding the right path, but some of them appeared to have been inserted at seemingly random points on the myriad intertwining paths, which only added to my headscratching and frustration. I recognise that most of this is more reflective of my own inadequacies rather than legitimate criticisms of the book itself. But that was my experience with it, so there you go. I never got on with Dark Souls, either.
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Post by sleepyscholar on Mar 19, 2021 14:23:26 GMT
The Crimson Tide was an entry I really feel I should have enjoyed more than I actually did. I really wanted to like it more because of its inventiveness, its ambition, and its fine writing. I didn't, because it was too fricking hard. To explain: there were other lots of other books in the series where I enjoyed the difficulty (Creature, House, Siege). Even though they took multiple playthroughs, with each go I felt I was taking baby steps towards cracking the puzzle. With Tide, I honestly couldn't work out where I was going wrong, what I needed to do. Granted, this was because of the very clever way that it concealed its solution, but it did it so well that after the umpteenth attempt where I still didn't feel like I was getting anywhere, it started to feel like I was enduring it rather than enjoying it. I also got the impression that the required code words were supposed to have been given at key moments on your character's road to some kind of spiritual awakening, which would have helped me with finding the right path, but some of them appeared to have been inserted at seemingly random points on the myriad intertwining paths, which only added to my headscratching and frustration. I recognise that most of this is more reflective of my own inadequacies rather than legitimate criticisms of the book itself. But that was my experience with it, so there you go. I never got on with Dark Souls, either. Nah, for what it's worth, I think you're right. As I've mentioned elsewhere, I was so pleased with myself over the difficulty, and it took me a while to realise how annoying it actually was. This was why I made a distinct effort to make Magehunter easier -- and I've always been a little surprised by the complaints that Magehunter itself is too difficult.
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Post by tyrion on Mar 19, 2021 15:48:31 GMT
I think with magehunter it is a bit confusing at the start. Like the bit where you get near the town - have you got a scar? Or a claw? What the hell, I just got here! Have you got a dog? Where from? Nobody mentioned a dog before. It's like portal of evil, where you can walk into the woods right at the start, or slaves of the abyss if you don't turn back, and miss about half of the book. Except magehunter is more dependent on actions, rather than directions.
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Post by petch on Mar 19, 2021 15:55:46 GMT
The Crimson Tide was an entry I really feel I should have enjoyed more than I actually did. I really wanted to like it more because of its inventiveness, its ambition, and its fine writing. I didn't, because it was too fricking hard. To explain: there were other lots of other books in the series where I enjoyed the difficulty (Creature, House, Siege). Even though they took multiple playthroughs, with each go I felt I was taking baby steps towards cracking the puzzle. With Tide, I honestly couldn't work out where I was going wrong, what I needed to do. Granted, this was because of the very clever way that it concealed its solution, but it did it so well that after the umpteenth attempt where I still didn't feel like I was getting anywhere, it started to feel like I was enduring it rather than enjoying it. I also got the impression that the required code words were supposed to have been given at key moments on your character's road to some kind of spiritual awakening, which would have helped me with finding the right path, but some of them appeared to have been inserted at seemingly random points on the myriad intertwining paths, which only added to my headscratching and frustration. I recognise that most of this is more reflective of my own inadequacies rather than legitimate criticisms of the book itself. But that was my experience with it, so there you go. I never got on with Dark Souls, either. Nah, for what it's worth, I think you're right. As I've mentioned elsewhere, I was so pleased with myself over the difficulty, and it took me a while to realise how annoying it actually was. This was why I made a distinct effort to make Magehunter easier -- and I've always been a little surprised by the complaints that Magehunter itself is too difficult. Ha, thanks...I do feel a bit validated by that! And by no means do I dislike Tide, I'd just say it's more one that I admired much more than I actually enjoyed.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,451
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Mar 19, 2021 15:58:11 GMT
This was why I made a distinct effort to make Magehunter easier -- and I've always been a little surprised by the complaints that Magehunter itself is too difficult. I suppose compared to Crimson Tide, it's much easier, but it's definitely at the more difficult end of the spectrum for the series as a whole - both in terms of tough dice rolls and finding the correct path. Not necessarily a bad thing though. I came up with a rationale for all the codewords in Crimson Tide but no idea if it's what you had in mind! When - Achieved after defeating Death's Messenger - a symbolic victory against death itself King - Shows you are sensible in going to report the crime in first instance Offers - Shows you can keep focused on your purpose by not getting sidetracked by exploring the city Sword - Achieved after successfully training as a monk without completely forgoing your quest, displaying focus and discipline Turn - Achieved after completing the monks' test, granting you a higher level of awareness To - Shows you are not rash enough to attack the bandits at the first opportunity 198 - Shows you have the intelligence not to fall for Pantu's tricks.
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Post by petch on Mar 19, 2021 18:45:46 GMT
This was why I made a distinct effort to make Magehunter easier -- and I've always been a little surprised by the complaints that Magehunter itself is too difficult. I suppose compared to Crimson Tide, it's much easier, but it's definitely at the more difficult end of the spectrum for the series as a whole - both in terms of tough dice rolls and finding the correct path. Not necessarily a bad thing though. I came up with a rationale for all the codewords in Crimson Tide but no idea if it's what you had in mind! When - Achieved after defeating Death's Messenger - a symbolic victory against death itself King - Shows you are sensible in going to report the crime in first instance Offers - Shows you can keep focused on your purpose by not getting sidetracked by exploring the city Sword - Achieved after successfully training as a monk without completely forgoing your quest, displaying focus and discipline Turn - Achieved after completing the monks' test, granting you a higher level of awareness To - Shows you are not rash enough to attack the bandits at the first opportunity 198 - Shows you have the intelligence not to fall for Pantu's tricks. Ooh, I like that. Whether it was intended or not, I like it a lot! I think Magehunter is a stunning piece of work. In retrospect, I think I ranked it too low in my table for a couple of minor quibbles: that the necessary purchase of 6 mirrors at the bazaar was pretty unintuitive (unless I missed a clue somewhere, which is entirely possible), and its short 'true path' length - but that is only the case because it manages to pack so much in. I never quite got how The Most Revered Treatise of Mage Hunting came into play functionally...it was (admirably) never quite spelled out, but I kind of figured that the rules didn't apply to mages on Titan, and sometimes they worked on Mencius, sometimes not, because...he was in a different body?? But that confusion ultimately didn't matter and actually enhanced the fish-out-of-water, otherworldly feeling that was so prevalent and effective throughout. The storyteller sequence is a little moment of wonder. Beautiful, bold, clever writing and one of my favourite moments in all of FF. Oh, and I think Prince Reinhardt beats off competition from Jesper and Throm as my favourite FF companion, in spite of - actually, because of - the fact that he's essentially a self-serving liability.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,451
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Mar 19, 2021 19:58:58 GMT
I never quite got how The Most Revered Treatise of Mage Hunting came into play functionally I think the Treatise is genius. The trick to it is it's designed to work in a world where mages are few so working out how to apply it in a world where mages are common (and not necessarily bad) takes careful thought - for instance, something may lead you to the nearest mage, but is this the mage you want? Easily my favourite element of the book. As for the mirrors, there is a clue but it's easy to miss. The background mentions you trapping Mencius in a circle of mirrors.
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Post by peasantscribbler on Mar 19, 2021 22:27:02 GMT
.,. magehunter is more dependent on actions, rather than directions. For me, I think that is a big part of what makes Magehunter difficult. I find it harder to use trial and error as a strategy for finding a winning path because it is harder to remember what action you took to obtain some artefact than it is, say, to remember the direction you took in a dungeon crawl. Especially if the significance of the artefact is based on what further paths or branches it opens rather than on what the artefact might be used for. Maybe it's just a matter of defamiliarizing my routine way of playing an FF gamebook. Anyways, it seems harder than a lot of the others. I didn't think it was harder than Crimson Tide, but I guess I didn't really fully complete Crimson Tide as I didn't find the first codeword.
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Post by petch on Mar 19, 2021 23:04:01 GMT
As for the mirrors, there is a clue but it's easy to miss. The background mentions you trapping Mencius in a circle of mirrors. Aah, so it does. I'm annoyed I never picked up that detail before!
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Post by sleepyscholar on Mar 20, 2021 0:48:33 GMT
This was why I made a distinct effort to make Magehunter easier -- and I've always been a little surprised by the complaints that Magehunter itself is too difficult. I suppose compared to Crimson Tide, it's much easier, but it's definitely at the more difficult end of the spectrum for the series as a whole - both in terms of tough dice rolls and finding the correct path. Not necessarily a bad thing though. I came up with a rationale for all the codewords in Crimson Tide but no idea if it's what you had in mind! Well, in the words of Kenneth Wolstenholme: 'It is now!' And I wasn't suggesting that Magehunter was easy! When Warlock readers kept on going on about how they liked difficult books, they may not have been entirely truthful, but they weren't outright lying. It's just that Crimson Tide saw me putting most of my effort into a ludicrously difficult 'safe combination' approach to cracking the book, whereas with Magehunter I was more interested in memorable set-pieces. Look at my avatar: the reason that had to be the cover of Magehunter (even in its Ian Miller incarnation) is that it's my favourite scene. Probably the bit of an FF book I've most enjoyed writing. The 'set-pieces' approach also explains why I did the absurdly ambitious body-swapping (and why it doesn't quite work).
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Post by petch on Mar 20, 2021 16:50:28 GMT
I suppose compared to Crimson Tide, it's much easier, but it's definitely at the more difficult end of the spectrum for the series as a whole - both in terms of tough dice rolls and finding the correct path. Not necessarily a bad thing though. I came up with a rationale for all the codewords in Crimson Tide but no idea if it's what you had in mind! Well, in the words of Kenneth Wolstenholme: 'It is now!' And I wasn't suggesting that Magehunter was easy! When Warlock readers kept on going on about how they liked difficult books, they may not have been entirely truthful, but they weren't outright lying. It's just that Crimson Tide saw me putting most of my effort into a ludicrously difficult 'safe combination' approach to cracking the book, whereas with Magehunter I was more interested in memorable set-pieces. Look at my avatar: the reason that had to be the cover of Magehunter (even in its Ian Miller incarnation) is that it's my favourite scene. Probably the bit of an FF book I've most enjoyed writing. The 'set-pieces' approach also explains why I did the absurdly ambitious body-swapping (and why it doesn't quite work). For what it's worth, I think the body-swapping element was implemented really well. Considering how error-strewn some of the other titles around the same time were, I don't think there was a single bug in it, which is impressive given its complexity. I also like how it uses coded triggers to secretly keep track of the body you are inhabiting, rather than going for the more obvious (and presumably less of a headache to design!) option of having a 'body' tickbox on the Adventure Sheet. I've read about the fans asking for harder books thing on here before. I'm sure I'm not the first to think that the likes of Crypt of the Sorceror and Jon Green's early works were the direct result of the authors misinterpreting exactly what the fans meant by that!
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,451
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Mar 20, 2021 18:16:09 GMT
I think the body-swapping element was implemented really well. Considering how error-strewn some of the other titles around the same time were, I don't think there was a single bug in it, which is impressive given its complexity. I know of one bug. If you reach Allansia using the magic book rather than interrupting the ritual, you will have no clear idea any bodyswapping has taken place. Yet when you run into Mencius at the Kallamehr bazaar, he is described as being in his new body Pretty minor to be fair but it confused me in my first playthrough.
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Post by The Count on Mar 20, 2021 19:51:38 GMT
9 The Crimson Tide 8 19 19 16 10 18 7 9 TOTAL 90 / FF 9
One of the more experimental books, and in some ways one of the strangest. Starting as a child, you are given the chance to grow and develop as the plot unfolds, and you get to control your destiny. Pretty zen stuff. The oriental influence is evident, without dropping into tired cliches or stereotypes (something SotS didn't quite manage) and the prose if full of lovely details that help you to really soak up the story. Unfortunately, this was one of the only books that any kind of editor bothered looking at, and in doing so made a mess of it by failing to read (and from reading said editors own tedious tome, its clearly not something he is good at), making one choice lead to an impossible fight, when it should merely be a very difficult fight. Luckily, you can win without having to defeat this enemy. What you are otherwise faced with is a complex puzzle that requires careful thought about your options. Enemies are reasonably balanced - you don't start facing truly strong ones until your Skill has increased - and a good mix of human and creatures. The Ferocity stat is well implemented, and this is one of the few books where codewords are not only incredibly well implemented, it's very difficult to tell if a codeword is good or bad. There is a minor carry-on moment where the King can offer you his wood if you make certain choices. Possibly quite forward thinking in creating that path. The continuity nods to BVP, SotS and the Riddling Reaver are subtle enough to enhance the book - you get a sense of a much wider world of which you know little to nothing about as you are focused on your own little corner of it - and you don't have to have read any previous FF books either making them nice easter eggs for fans (and no unsubtle tour guide of the Abyss either, thankfully). When you gradually place the bits of the puzzle together and everything clicks, you have an incredibly zen moment - and this can happen in at least 3 of the endings. You can also choose some the opposite path if you so wish. Aside from the Deaths Messenger looking like a glow in the dark cartoon sticker you would get free from Weetabix or Cornflakes, the art is fantastic, really drawing you further into the plot. The cover is interesting as it seems to be more of a statement of an alternative ending instead of an actual scene from the book, again quite clever world building. The only thing dragging this down is that the aging aspect doesn't fully work. Granted, it would make for a very long book if there was too much detail, and the revelation that the author thinks the true ending happens about a third of the way through. Despite being tough with low stats, this is one that can be explored extensively on numerous occasions. The Crimson Tide was an entry I really feel I should have enjoyed more than I actually did. I really wanted to like it more because of its inventiveness, its ambition, and its fine writing. I didn't, because it was too fricking hard. To explain: there were other lots of other books in the series where I enjoyed the difficulty (Creature, House, Siege). Even though they took multiple playthroughs, with each go I felt I was taking baby steps towards cracking the puzzle. With Tide, I honestly couldn't work out where I was going wrong, what I needed to do. Granted, this was because of the very clever way that it concealed its solution, but it did it so well that after the umpteenth attempt where I still didn't feel like I was getting anywhere, it started to feel like I was enduring it rather than enjoying it. I also got the impression that the required code words were supposed to have been given at key moments on your character's road to some kind of spiritual awakening, which would have helped me with finding the right path, but some of them appeared to have been inserted at seemingly random points on the myriad intertwining paths, which only added to my headscratching and frustration. I recognise that most of this is more reflective of my own inadequacies rather than legitimate criticisms of the book itself. But that was my experience with it, so there you go. I never got on with Dark Souls, either. I love the fiendish difficulty of it, and of Siege of Sardath as well. Having a puzzle that needs to be solved is incredibly satisfying, especially compared to a slogfest like Crypt. It may have taken many plays to complete, but when you find the big ending it is incredibly satisfying - and also difficult to replicate on further attempts.
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