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Post by johnbrawn1972 on Jan 18, 2021 15:37:14 GMT
5 Vault of the Vampire 9 20 20 17 9 20 10 9 TOTAL 95 / FF 10
I've eluded elsewhere to the fact that I consider Keith Martin to be my favourite FF author, and this book is the primary reason. Your first sentence should read I've alluded.
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Jan 18, 2021 17:26:36 GMT
...the very act of having to tick the boxes generates a feeling of a race against time, even if the mechanic doesn't really bear this out properly. That's right, it does. And that's enough really. The pleasure is to be had in the experience of reading and playing the book. When I'd finished the book, it didn't irritate me that the time track was rather less crucial than it appeared at first. Others may disagree, and feel they'd been 'had'. I can remember nothing about the logic behind the inclusion of the killing blow rule. My guess is that it's nothing more than impatience with FF combat! In any case, I don't think there's any real justification for it. The mechanism first appeared in the Riddling Reaver to my recollection. When we played the campaign we [wrongly?] applied the killing blow rule to NPCs' and monsters' attacks as well as the heroes'. It made combat potentially lethal, with STAMINA 20 heroes getting chopped down to -1 STAMINA and needing an urgent healing spell cast on them before bleeding out. As with the time mechanic above, it sort of worked even if it wasn't intended like that. It forced other avenues of approach to be taken to a problem rather than just letting our SKILL 11 bullyboy wade in with Timakron every time. ... the Riddling Reaver cover that Steve J foisted on us (which completely screwed up the look of the Riddling Reaver). The double-headed arrow livery on the lizardmen differed on the cover from the illustrations on the inside of the book, too. I'd assumed the RR was always human in appearance and that that inhuman face on the front cover was one of his masks. I'd have to work out which names I was allowed to use, and which I'd have to change (good thing I'm still in touch with Marc). Gah! We want the proper names kept. And what else might have to be changed, the combat mechanic too? DEXTERITY, STRENGTH and FORTUNE?
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Post by tyrion on Jan 18, 2021 18:25:04 GMT
ACE gamebooks use the same mechanics as ff, it's just called combat/agility instead of skill and endurance instead of stamina.
I like the riddling reaver in magehunter.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,453
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Jan 18, 2021 21:14:54 GMT
When I'd finished the book, it didn't irritate me that the time track was rather less crucial than it appeared at first. Others may disagree, and feel they'd been 'had'. I think it would be less of an issue if the book didn't make such a song and dance about it. The back of the book declares that in this adventure one of your enemies is time itself and the inside front cover is devoted to an elaborate time chart. It wasn't the first book to have a time track - Seas of Blood and Star Strider beat it to the punch and both did it rather better so not sure why it was made to be such a big deal here. I think ultimately the issue is a book with such a narrow true path is the wrong one to put a time track in. When the only way to waste time is to do something that will result in failure anyway it seems a bit pointless (Keith P Phillips made this mistake too with Siege of Sardath). I take Paul's point that it does serve a narrative/atmospheric purpose but it might have been better used in a book where it could also have a gameplay function. Sorry Paul, it seems I'm always bashing Slaves on here - I do like it, promise!
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Post by sleepyscholar on Jan 19, 2021 1:46:36 GMT
Sorry Paul, it seems I'm always bashing Slaves on here - I do like it, promise! No problem: you may have noticed I was bashing it a bit myself. But more importantly, I was responding to The Count's interesting observations, so let's get back to them...
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Post by The Count on Jan 20, 2021 10:35:26 GMT
...the very act of having to tick the boxes generates a feeling of a race against time, even if the mechanic doesn't really bear this out properly. That's right, it does. And that's enough really. The pleasure is to be had in the experience of reading and playing the book. When I'd finished the book, it didn't irritate me that the time track was rather less crucial than it appeared at first. Others may disagree, and feel they'd been 'had'. It may not be obvious from some of my comments, but I feel an additional stat is well implemented when it contributes to the overall story and atmosphere even if it isn't the best gamewise - Ferocity in TCT is a good example of this as it contributes far more to the narrative as it does to the game mechanics.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,453
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Jan 20, 2021 11:05:06 GMT
That's right, it does. And that's enough really. The pleasure is to be had in the experience of reading and playing the book. When I'd finished the book, it didn't irritate me that the time track was rather less crucial than it appeared at first. Others may disagree, and feel they'd been 'had'. It may not be obvious from some of my comments, but I feel an additional stat is well implemented when it contributes to the overall story and atmosphere even if it isn't the best gamewise - Ferocity in TCT is a good example of this as it contributes far more to the narrative as it does to the game mechanics. I suppose the opposite of that would be something like the Honour stat in Tower of Destruction and Night Dragon. Functionally it's fine but it doesn't really fit with the theme of either book.
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Post by The Count on Jan 20, 2021 11:57:17 GMT
4 Black Vein Prophecy 9 18 20 19 10 20 10 10 TOTAL 96 / FF 10
Sometimes when FF strays from the standard template, it is a disaster. Occasionally it becomes a masterpiece. This is without a doubt the latter. A completely surreal mystery that very slowly gathers the often bizarre threads into place, and even then only makes sense if you read it very carefully. So as a narrative, it is doing the job immediately. Starting without a history lesson or info dump, you have absolutely no context as to what happened, is happening or will happen. No introduction, straight into what is arguably the best Paragraph 1 of the entire series. A brilliant instant death within a few paragraphs for making a poor decision, and the controversial luck test which is in some ways unfair is also a sign of devious brilliance as sometimes things need to go wrong in life. The start is a great mixture of suspense, confusion and urgency with some interesting set pieces. Once you get beyond the strange ruined city, and gather more pieces of the puzzle, you can slowly attempt to fit them into place, often incorrectly. Bit by bit, you discover more about yourself and the world you are in which both expand wonderfully. Encounters range from potentially useful allies to deadly enemies, to those who change on an incomprehensible whim, as well as the weird Shael Beast and the madness of the Polybleb. Each engagement needs careful consideration to get the best outcome, which isn't always what you'd expect it to be. Scenes such as the robbers, the bath house and the boat are brilliant in both story and game as the outcomes of each option do not immediately let you know anything beyond what has just happened - long term rewards or consequences are cunningly camouflaged to the extent that the true path only makes sense on completion of the whole adventure, yet the false trails are equally engaging. Possibly gaining some powers through certain choices is incredibly well done and using them requires thought as they are subtle in application (but not in outcome). The ending is so incredibly well thought out and executed that it is a thing of beauty when you win, especially if you have been paying attention and realise exactly what is happening. While Skill is 2 points lower than normal, the fights are balanced according to this. There are some faults which arise from having two authors who weren't communicating and zero editing - items changing names and occasional shifts in tone - however, these don't take away from the excellence of the book. Replaying is easy, in fact I'd suggest it should be compulsory in order to uncover as much of the wonderful tapestry of the tale and the twisting path through it.
So why is this magnificent FF tome not ranked higher? The return to the start is not very well implemented as while it is possible this is how you ended up there in the first place, having the exact same set of circumstances for each encounter is implausible. Which is unfortunate as this could have been covered by either an imaginative instant death, or by directing you towards the first one. That aside, and the fact it will sadly probably never be republished, I have absolutely no complaints about this. An absolute pleasure to read and play through.
Internal art is magnificent - brooding, murky, sinister, slightly indistinct and perfectly in keeping with the tale it supplements. Unlike the author, I love the cover - it is simple, mysterious, striking and hints at something that you are not quite sure of much like a lot of the story. Very fitting.
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Post by peasantscribbler on Jan 20, 2021 23:03:45 GMT
4 Black Vein Prophecy 9 18 20 19 10 20 10 10 TOTAL 96 / FF 10
The ending is so incredibly well thought out and executed that it is a thing of beauty when you win, especially if you have been paying attention and realise exactly what is happening. Do you mean when you read the winning path or when you actually win? I've assumed that very few (if any) have actually won, but I could be wrong. Personally, I got close enough to the end to continue reading and discover how one would actually win, but I don't count this as a win.
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,678
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Jan 21, 2021 0:14:55 GMT
BVP definitely an underrated masterpiece. Reading through it feels more satisfying than playing through it. The best thing is that for those who have the patience of actually completing it, subsequent reads offer more information and plot that you didn't notice before and that seemingly random events or character behaviour is not all that random at all. My favourite story in the whole series and second overall in the gamebook world.
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Post by sleepyscholar on Jan 21, 2021 2:47:30 GMT
I think it should be pretty clear that Steve and I were enthusiastic about the narratives BVP expressed (and there's a big role-playing dimension there, if you think of it), but we lacked the technical competence to express them seamlessly in terms of a game (in the sense that the book is a complex system). My fault, really. I had studied optimisation theory and critical path analysis as part of the operational research component of my degree, but I patently didn't pay enough attention to using any of that stuff in planning the gamebooks. In practice, we wrote these books attempting to keep it all in our heads, which nowadays is not something I would consider doing for an instant!
On the other hand, it does occur to me that if I had tried to construct a system based on analysis, it would have been more foolproof, but also much simpler, and it might well have missed out on some of the rough edges that give the books their odd flavours. It would have been -- if I can steal an odd analogy -- a digital synthesizer compared to an analogue one.
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Post by The Count on Jan 21, 2021 10:07:54 GMT
4 Black Vein Prophecy 9 18 20 19 10 20 10 10 TOTAL 96 / FF 10
The ending is so incredibly well thought out and executed that it is a thing of beauty when you win, especially if you have been paying attention and realise exactly what is happening. Do you mean when you read the winning path or when you actually win? I've assumed that very few (if any) have actually won, but I could be wrong. Personally, I got close enough to the end to continue reading and discover how one would actually win, but I don't count this as a win. Actually winning which was how I realised the full details of the marvellous tale, although discovering the final path without winning presumably would be the same. It took many attempts and never once did I feel frustrated during any of those attempts.
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Post by stevendoig on Jan 21, 2021 12:50:15 GMT
Patience is required with this book. Something I lack in any great amount.
Therefore this book 'annoys' me
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Post by The Count on Jan 21, 2021 13:19:44 GMT
3 Legend of the Shadow Warriors 10 20 20 18 10 20 10 10 TOTAL 98 / FF 10
The tonal shift from basic dungeon exploring in the earlier FF books, into the more complex and mature titles of the 50s really came into its own in the 40s, and if I had to point to one book where this was fully realised, it would be this. The world building within is so wonderfully done, making a very small area in a remote, hitherto unexplored corner of Titan come alive with a sense of a long past and eventful present. The background giving some history which enhances the plot subtly is well employed, and the introduction beautifully sets the scene for the adventure to come. The Royal Lendle section where you start your journey to aid Karnstein has a lighter tone than you'd expect, is almost comical in places and yet there is a subtle air of something worse waiting in the wings. Having your most immediate danger being a tax collector is something that is more entertaining as an adult, yet it helps establish that this is not just another generic adventure. The titular Shadow Warriors themselves are introduced in a moment of great suspense in a narrow pass, the revelation that they are not only real but you cannot truly defeat them (yet - you might discover the weakness if you search carefully enough) takes an undercurrent of fear and magnifies it into full blown horror. With two main paths through the book and the opportunity to explore some amazing set pieces and imaginative encounters (the Pan-Terric Behemoth, Haggworts, Mandrakes, Kauderwelsch, Nightmare Master, Mahogadon), there are so many wonderful details to explore and lots of opportunity to replay and discover different areas and enemies, and to try alternative means of handling them. Each path has its own sub plot to explore and enjoy - the Haggworts on the cover on one, the Mandrakes on the other - and the atmosphere in each is carefully and strongly maintained. Careful reading has some brilliant discoveries - pushing a jester away with a palm to the face, mongoose paperweights, finding a bad hiding place. While the puzzle to locate the place to confront the Shadow Warriors for the final time, and the Vovoid who is behind them, is normal for the series at this point, it isn't really necessary. There are a few things that could be improved: the use of armour is well implemented as it has benefits and drawbacks, however it does lead to some extra book keeping that is easy to forget. The spear needed to confront Vovoid is a bit too dependent on what you roll when you find it, there is an error in directions which may lead to you going the wrong way and while the inspiration of the Shadow Warriors is hinted to be the Ringwraiths, the stupidly named Smegg is clearly Gollum. However these are very minor niggles and do not take away from an amazing book. Fights are varied across the spectrum, none too low as to make them a waste of time and none that are excessively high. Even the tougher fights are mostly around the Skill 9 mark - it is their special attacks which make the Shadow Warriors deadly. The ending is a masterpiece both in successfully delivering a twist and in exquisite storytelling.
The cover is one of the most striking and gripping in the entire series, even though the automatic assumption is that these are the Shadow Warriors themselves. Internal art is stunning - the two near identical images are used perfectly. It's a shame that the very last drawing in the book is the weakest.
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Post by The Count on Jan 21, 2021 18:08:11 GMT
BVP definitely an underrated masterpiece. Reading through it feels more satisfying than playing through it. The best thing is that for those who have the patience of actually completing it, subsequent reads offer more information and plot that you didn't notice before and that seemingly random events or character behaviour is not all that random at all. My favourite story in the whole series and second overall in the gamebook world. Agree with this, although I find I enjoy a gamebook less if I can't fully enjoy it as a game - which is why Spellbreaker for example is much further down the list, and this is so high.
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Post by petch on Jan 21, 2021 19:18:02 GMT
Am pleased to observe that your BVP review now has more likes than my meandering BotZ musings, and quite rightly so too. In fact your eloquent and well considered words on BVP - as well as the fact that several other forum members clearly think very highly of it - have convinced me that I need to go back and revisit it to give it another chance. I think I may have missed something, something about it didn't quite click with me before. Don't get me wrong, I still enjoyed it, but it nonetheless sits in the bottom half of my own rankings table (only just mind you, and I hasten to add it's the only one of Paul's books that does!). All this is also making me think that we need a new culinary metaphor to describe Mr Mason's output...as we pretty much all seem to like it, marmite clearly no longer suffices. I was thinking maybe soy sauce for reasons similar to the opening of the Count's Slaves of the Abyss review...not sure if you like it when you first try it, then you grow to love it.
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Post by petch on Jan 21, 2021 19:22:48 GMT
Ok, so given that it finished bottom of both the main rankings table and the Count's rankings here, I'm going to attempt to mount something of a defense for poor old Blood of the Zombies. I wouldn't blame anyone if they decided to stop reading this post right here! First off though, the fact that it is impossible to complete with the given rules is indefensible, and I'm not even going to try. It's like Ian finished writing his first draft of the book, thought 'that'll do,' and didn't bother with even cursory playtesting - given that he had created his own bespoke rules for this book, it really wouldn't have taken him much effort to tweak either the rules or your character's starting stamina to make it actually playable and just smacks of laziness on his part. Indeed, while a number of other books in the series have infinitesimally low mathematical probabilities of completing them if playing by the rules, BotZ has the dubious honour of being the only one that is actually impossible - unless I guess you count the missing paragraph trigger in Creature of Havoc as rendering that particular book impossible, which surprisingly would give one of the series' best regarded entries something in common with one of its worst! Similarly, I can't disagree with the Count's point about the ambiguity of the counting requirement, and the necessity of tallying every zombo killed from the hordes that you faced was some irritatingly intrusive numbercrunching in a book that otherwise wasn't exactly a stretch on cranial capacity. Onto the good though. The introduction was effective, atmospheric and pretty damn dark for Ian. Your character is given a brief background, which humanises them a lot more than the empty 'mighty warrior' cipher you play in the majority of the books. The fact that the book has a real-world setting and is the only one other than House of Hell to do so gives it a point of difference. Now, a lot of this promising set-up is lost when the book gets going proper and things get kind of silly, but you know what? I kind of liked that dumbness. I revelled in it. The fact that you play a weedy, malnourished mythology student who suddenly becomes an 80s action movie star, mowing down hordes of undead with whatever weapons come to hand had a satisfyingly bloodspattered, corpse-dismemberingly Sam Raimi-esque knowing daftness to it. Where else in the series do you get to cut down swathes of foes with a mounted Browning machine gun, butcher them with a chainsaw or dive off of a castle battlements as someone fires an RPG at you? As for the main villain, no, Gingrich Yurr's actions or motivations made absolutely no sense. But in keeping with the hyperbolic swagger of the rest of the book, that didn't matter to me. He was a mental cartoon bad guy who did bad things because he was bad, and that was the only justification he needed. When he suicidally injected zombie blood into himself was the icing on the very bloody cake. I'm not trying to say that Blood of the Zombies is, in any credible sense, actually good. It's not, I accept that. But I did find it a great deal of fun (once I'd doctored the rules to make it actually playable by quintupling my starting stamina or something), and more entertaining and memorable than some of the series' more formulaic moments. I don't know what's worse - you defending BoTZ or getting more likes for doing so than any of my posts in my own thread... Sorry, don't know why I'm incapable of using the quote function properly. In reference to my previous post was trying to quote the Count's post here!
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,678
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Jan 21, 2021 23:43:56 GMT
Legend of the Shadow Warriors is my number 1 so great to see it ranked so high. A lot of care is given for each encounter you come across which really helps bring the world to life. Some good examples include the part where you can use Bartolph's loaded die against the Clown woman. The result is wonderfully hilarious, but it's the murderous intent behind her forced smile that brings a sinister unease. Or the fascinating skeletal Behemoth that masterminds it's release from a rocky crag through means of mind-control is expertly told. Features like this gives the adventure real dimension. There's a lot of heart and imagination put into this adventure and it is well paced and well designed for replayability. Everyone should have a go at this one.
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Post by vastariner on Jan 22, 2021 18:54:28 GMT
I was thinking, provoked by this thread, why I rate Black Vein Prophecy and Slaves of the Abyss so highly, when they only have one path (I think) to victory - and in BVP's case it's pretty unfair.
I have come to the conclusion that it is because they are both detective stories.
Other books with tight and linear paths have the storyline set out in advance. You know what you've got to do and where to go; you don't know exactly what's en route. But there's an obvious end game.
They are not satisfying as books because the interactivity and replayability value is low. It's more a puzzle. Once you pick the path, that's it. There's nowhere else you can go with it. Sometimes it's worth re-looking because the writing or storyline is so good; sometimes you meet a dog-headed kangaroo and it smells of desperation.
In BVP and SotA though you don't know what's going on. Literally in the case of BVP. You are picking up clues as you go as to what is happening. You end up with dead (literally again) ends and failures, and alternative endings. But they all add to the knowledge you have with what the storyline is doing.
So there is lots of replayability value; even once you get through, you have to go back to enjoy the story, so that it all fits in together. And you can see how the failures also tie into everything.
One of the things I find most appealing about SotA is that you are NOT a mega-hero at the start, you're bumbling along as best you can until a literal (I am using literally in the literal sense a lot here) deus ex machina rescues you; it's like the Quest for the Grail, in that there are three knights (in Malory) who achieve it - the biggest name of them all (Galahad), another Champions League fighter (Perceval), and...Bors, a distinct third-rater, whose main role in Arthurian myth is to be one of Lancelot's retainers, and whose main attribute is doggedly and quietly ploughing on as best he can, avoiding boss fights, and using his wits rather than his sword. And for him, as with SotA, the climax is the greatest achievement in FF. But it's also far more realistic than "YOU are the dude to save the world", the best trick the Devil played was to convince the world he did not exist; makes sense that an Abyss figure would use guile and try to get through with nobody noticing - and that someone not obviously a threat (Frodo?) could win through in the end.
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Jan 22, 2021 19:39:15 GMT
I was thinking, provoked by this thread, why I rate Black Vein Prophecy and Slaves of the Abyss so highly, when they only have one path (I think) to victory - and in BVP's case it's pretty unfair. I have come to the conclusion that it is because they are both detective stories. .... In BVP and SotA though you don't know what's going on. Literally in the case of BVP. You are picking up clues as you go as to what is happening. You end up with dead (literally again) ends and failures, and alternative endings. But they all add to the knowledge you have with what the storyline is doing. Spot on. Same with Creature of Havoc and Siege of Sardath. NOT knowing what you are initially up against, NOT knowing the big picture from the start is appealing to me too. Better that things get found out within the book than having them all set out in the introduction. One of the things I find most appealing about SotA is that you are NOT a mega-hero at the start, you're bumbling along as best you can until a literal (I am using literally in the literal sense a lot here) deus ex machina rescues you.... But it's also far more realistic than "YOU are the dude to save the world" That's right, you are one of a number of hired warriors recruited to help the city. And I agree with the last sentence there, too. Not trying to derail the thread, but some time ago I read a blog called 'The Old School is pathetic - a rant' by 'dr bargle' (easily findable if you google those search terms) which perhaps touches on some of the reasons why.
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Post by tyrion on Jan 22, 2021 19:40:22 GMT
I think you've hit the nail on the head there with bvp and sota (and others like vault of the vampire, masks of mayhem, the crimson tide and magehunter to a lesser extent). They are both great interactive stories, rather than games (the opposite would be legend of zagor,which is more a game than a story). They can be read multiple times and still be enjoyed, even with the very linear path. After all, I've read all the jack reacher novels multiple times, it doesn't mean I won't enjoy them again. Same with star wars. On the other hand, stephen hand's books (and sword of the samurai) are replayable because there are different routes through depending on whether you roll a weak or strong character.
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Jan 22, 2021 19:47:49 GMT
In fact your eloquent and well considered words on BVP - as well as the fact that several other forum members clearly think very highly of it - have convinced me that I need to go back and revisit it to give it another chance. For the same reasons BVP went to the top of the list of my FF books to reread after I'm done with getting up to date with Lone Wolf 30 and 31, and the Sorcery! series, for sure. With a lot of the books, I'm working off of memories from years ago.
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Post by tyrion on Jan 22, 2021 20:12:24 GMT
Same here. I used to dislike bvp (and siege of sardath), but seeing as lots of folks here rated them so highly, I've gone back to them and found they are great books. The naivety of youth!
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,678
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Jan 22, 2021 21:47:31 GMT
Same here. I used to dislike bvp (and siege of sardath), but seeing as lots of folks here rated them so highly, I've gone back to them and found they are great books. The naivety of youth! Same here. Persistence yields rewards.
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Post by sleepyscholar on Jan 23, 2021 16:24:00 GMT
Same here. I used to dislike bvp (and siege of sardath), but seeing as lots of folks here rated them so highly, I've gone back to them and found they are great books. The naivety of youth! Same here. Persistence yields rewards. I found that too, after being told for many years they sucked seawater. Incidentally, D F Chang cited you as a gamebook guru, responsible for him getting the Critical IF books. Good for you!
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,678
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Jan 24, 2021 0:43:06 GMT
Sorry, who's D F Chang?
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Post by sleepyscholar on Jan 24, 2021 2:09:16 GMT
Just a Youtube guy who reviews computer games and occasional gamebooks. Big fan of Jonathan Green.
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,678
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Jan 24, 2021 12:03:08 GMT
Just a Youtube guy who reviews computer games and occasional gamebooks. Big fan of Jonathan Green. Ah okay. Good that I'm helping to spread the joy.
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Post by The Count on Jan 25, 2021 4:09:01 GMT
I'm sure that those bothering to read this thread have figured out my Top 2. In writing my post for #2, I found myself in a bit of a dilemma and was questioning my rankings for both books. While they are very different, there is one element they both have in common, and this element ensures they are head and shoulders above every other FF book in my esteem. It is also the factor that is making me question if I have placed them in the wrong order. While I will ultimately stick to my spreadsheet rankings, I think in order to do both books justice, I will have to write both commentaries before posting about either.
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Post by petch on Jan 25, 2021 16:04:08 GMT
I was wondering why you were leaving us waiting
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