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Post by Law on Dec 30, 2020 11:23:01 GMT
"This is where things may be mildly controversial.
I don't find Sorcery! to be "Epic!" in terms of individual books and as a whole.
There is no denying that Steve is a decent writer and knows his way round a complex gamebook,
however I find that he tries too hard to make things complex for the sake of it,
which ruins the Sorcery! series." - The Count (29/12/2020)
Citizens of Fantazine! The Count has persecuted our nostalgia, ransacked our joy, and now, he has declared war on 'The Crown of Kings', herself! Will we allow it?!
It is true that among Jackson's quadrilogy we have countless embarrassing moments: of lunch-sacks being ransacked by a fat-bellied Sciuridae,
being kicked up the bum to fall into a public gong pit,
having no money to trade with and being crucified for it.
And even being enough of a pillock to willingly don a strait-jacket in the middle of the enemy's stronghold! But ignore all those! Let's not bicker and argue over, "what killed who?!" This is supposed to be an - 'appy occasion! Where we can all bring up the moments in these books that made us feel like a badass warrior-mage!
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Post by vastariner on Dec 30, 2020 12:01:41 GMT
One of the genius things about it is that, Manticore aside, you did not really need to be so mega badass. You could use brains rather than brawn. The Seven Serpents being a strong example.
I think the Moon Serpent might be the most badass moment; you deal with an enemy that has literally just frightened someone to death. Getting past the Sleepless Ram, after all, it might be the first time you ever come across an automaton. And the Bond villain face-to-face at the (almost) end.
But the epic thing is the sweep of it. You walk across a nation, cross a dangerous city, and get closer and closer to the core of Chaos, with everything beginning to warp around you. Your basic spells (as wizard) at the start - your JIGs or POPs - stop working and you have to go for the hardcore likes of ZAP and of course ZED. It is akin to Lord of the Rings; you start off with the bucolic Shire and end up with a Netherworld Demon. And you're even flown out of the disaster zone. LotR is an epic, but what does Frodo actually DO that is epic? He's basically going to Argos to get rid of an unwanted gift.
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Post by Law on Dec 30, 2020 14:09:36 GMT
One of the genius things about it is that, Manticore aside, you did not really need to be so mega badass. You could use brains rather than brawn. The Seven Serpents being a strong example. I think the Moon Serpent might be the most badass moment; you deal with an enemy that has literally just frightened someone to death. Getting past the Sleepless Ram, after all, it might be the first time you ever come across an automaton. And the Bond villain face-to-face at the (almost) end. But the epic thing is the sweep of it. You walk across a nation, cross a dangerous city, and get closer and closer to the core of Chaos, with everything beginning to warp around you. Your basic spells (as wizard) at the start - your JIGs or POPs - stop working and you have to go for the hardcore likes of ZAP and of course ZED. It is akin to Lord of the Rings; you start off with the bucolic Shire and end up with a Netherworld Demon. And you're even flown out of the disaster zone. LotR is an epic, but what does Frodo actually DO that is epic? He's basically going to Argos to get rid of an unwanted gift. Frodo does get two badass moments when he talks smack to the Nine while dying of the Morgul blade and when he stabs the Cave Troll in the foot with Sting, but yeah... He's more there to make Samwise look even better!
Absolutely, the escalation from sylvan wilderness and quaint hamlets, to a wretched hive of scum and villainy, forging across a desert of the mind and up into the high mountains of peril; the scenery and magnitude of the task is awe-inspiring.
Beating the Moon Serpent with the common tinder box is a riot but so is using a seeking fireball to one-shot him!
True, I still remember the magic three-hit-combo to leave the Manticore alive though, DOZ, HOT, WAL, voila!
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Dec 30, 2020 17:37:29 GMT
There's so much to like about the Sorcery! series.
I'd call it an epic quest overall, for sure, and would be interested in hearing an opinion or argument into why it is NOT an epic.
Questing out of the relative safety of Analand [protected by its Wall] into the lawless hills of the north, traversing a dangerous cityport, having to track down and kill powerful supernatural enemies whose knowledge of your quest has compromised it, then the infiltration into the enemy fortress.
All over the course of four books where you grow in power and abilities as you go and where information gained earlier can become very useful.
Badass? I suppose get hold of the blessed hardwood spear?
Get tooled up with Alianna's Armband of Swordsmastery and the broadsword from Cantopani and carve a path of red ruin from Analand to Mampang?
For me, Steve Jackson's strengths as a gamebook writer do not lie in the creation of suped-up characters slugging it out with SKILL 15 monsters but in the eerie, the horrific, the bizarre and the 'not as it seems'. His books are full of atmospheric encounters, and this includes the Sorcery series.
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Post by Law on Dec 30, 2020 19:40:50 GMT
Badass? I suppose get hold of the blessed hardwood spear? Get tooled up with Alianna's Armband of Swordsmastery and the broadsword from Cantopani and carve a path of red ruin from Analand to Mampang? Oh, by Libra, when that spear starts performing the Wierding Way on those Sightmasters by itself and Steve suddenly jacks up the violence and gore to 18+ my jaw dropped. Bless Colletus and praise Throff! (in secret homage...)
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Post by The Count on Dec 31, 2020 6:25:29 GMT
I'd call it an epic quest overall, for sure, and would be interested in hearing an opinion or argument into why it is NOT an epic. See below for starters... Unless you argue that name is an epic fail. It is very difficult to take anything seriously after that. Epics have to be taken seriously. Then there is the green wig... |
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Dec 31, 2020 9:00:30 GMT
Ha! The name Analand doesn't even register a twitch on my daftometer, to be honest. I always pronounced it as if the first 'n' was doubled, like in the name Anna, or the word annals [edit: indeed that's where I thought the name came from... the annals of history, Analand being a more civilised land than its neighbours etc] . So maybe that's why. This tends to be the case for proper nouns in general for me unless they are unavoidably odd or funny like reading there's a settlement called Twatt in the Shetlands, for example.
Also, is then the Iliad not an epic because it has a man called Ajax (sounds like a brand of bleach to me) in it? And the Trojans... that's a brand name of condoms isn't it?
As for the wig... well i agree you must look a bit absurd with it on, chatting to a mouse or sparrow or whatever. Usually the spell ingredients have a sort of logic to them. I feel i used to know why the green wig was used and have forgotten somehow.. anyone know? [edit: for some reason I'm thinking I saw it in D and D or a Michael Moorcock book]
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Post by Law on Dec 31, 2020 13:41:55 GMT
Ha! The name Analand doesn't even register a twitch on my daftometer, to be honest. I always pronounced it as if the first 'n' was doubled, like in the name Anna, or the word annals [edit: indeed that's where I thought the name came from... the annals of history, Analand being a more civilised land than its neighbours etc] . So maybe that's why. Me too, like an optical illusion, I can't believe I never noticed the toilet-humour implications until The Count pointed it out! I wonder whether Mr Jackson was having a laugh when he penned the country's name, or he missed it as well, though...
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Post by dragonwarrior8 on Dec 31, 2020 14:07:23 GMT
I never thought about the name Analand in that context either. Gives new meaning to traveling the hills of Analand. I hope you dont come across any (wood) piles!
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Post by Law on Dec 31, 2020 14:54:04 GMT
I never thought about the name Analand in that context either. Gives new meaning to traveling the hills of Analand. I hope you dont come across any (wood) piles! Considering how many times the NIF spell can be used successfully in the series and the communal squatty-potty in Mampang... |
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Dec 31, 2020 15:11:31 GMT
Ha! The name Analand doesn't even register a twitch on my daftometer, to be honest. I always pronounced it as if the first 'n' was doubled, like in the name Anna, or the word annals [edit: indeed that's where I thought the name came from... the annals of history, Analand being a more civilised land than its neighbours etc] . So maybe that's why. Me too, like an optical illusion, I can't believe I never noticed the toilet-humour implications until The Count pointed it out! I wonder whether Mr Jackson was having a laugh when he penned the country's name, or he missed it as well, though...
Kakhabad was named after someone SJ actually knew at school. Mampang as a place exists. So does Khare, and a number of those villages in Shamutanti Hills too. Analand: My guess is that it's a variant on a name or place he has picked up somewhere. |
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Post by Law on Dec 31, 2020 17:36:19 GMT
Me too, like an optical illusion, I can't believe I never noticed the toilet-humour implications until The Count pointed it out! I wonder whether Mr Jackson was having a laugh when he penned the country's name, or he missed it as well, though...
Kakhabad was named after someone SJ actually knew at school. Mampang as a place exists. So does Khare, and a number of those villages in Shamutanti Hills too. Analand: My guess is that it's a variant on a name or place he has picked up somewhere. Kakha... Kaka Means Poop! Steve can't help himself!
Let's try to get back to the topic at hand! Epic scenes, gimme, gimme, gimme!
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Post by tyrion on Dec 31, 2020 18:52:01 GMT
Finding the amulet in book 1 that has a connection with the captain in book 4... Only a little thing, but shows how well Steve thought the whole thing out.
Even as a teenager, I never thought any of the names were rude. Like bloodbeasthandler, I pronounced it as anna-land.
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Post by Law on Dec 31, 2020 19:18:45 GMT
Finding the amulet in book 1 that has a connection with the captain in book 4... Only a little thing, but shows how well Steve thought the whole thing out. Even as a teenager, I never thought any of the names were rude. Like bloodbeasthandler, I pronounced it as anna-land. An underrated and humanising moment for Cap'n Cartoum, indeed.
Though I prefer to use the (I believe) only instance of the GOD spell to turn him into a drooling Igor sycophant. |
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Dec 31, 2020 19:33:50 GMT
Epic or not... tangling with the young red eye thugs in Khare is done well. Walking into the wrong part of town and seeing trouble coming your way, deciding whether to brazen it out or run and if so potentially getting cornered and burned up.
In S!3 there’s the sinister encounter with the seven spirits who try to trick you into renouncing the goddess, and the consequences for you if you do so. That one stuck in my mind for whatever reason, as did the fight with the Earth Serpent where it’s one thing after another.
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Dec 31, 2020 20:41:28 GMT
Since the topic has turned in this direction, a true story for you... Little did I know it when i first read the book in 1985 or 1986, but the description and illustration of the shithouse in Mampang was prophetic, something which would become a reality for me many years later. In 1999 I was working as a casual labourer on a building site in the countryside to the west of London and one of my duties was cleaning the toilets. It was clear to me that the previous night many of the bricklayers had been drinking beer watching the Man Utd vs Bayern Munich UEFA Champions League Final. And had then attempted to deposit the resulting sludge in the general direction of the toilet. I don’t recall how many STAMNINA points I lost, but it looked like a depth charge had gone off in that chocolate river in Willy Wonka’s Factory. The pan itself could be described as 'pebble dashed'  |
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Post by Law on Dec 31, 2020 21:10:19 GMT
In 1999 I was working as a casual labourer on a building site in the countryside to the west of London and one of my duties was cleaning the toilets. It was clear to me that the previous night many of the bricklayers had been drinking beer watching the Man Utd vs Bayern Munich UEFA Champions League Final. And had then attempted to deposit the resulting sludge in the general direction of the toilet. I don’t recall how many STAMINA points I lost, but it looked like a depth charge had gone off in that chocolate river in Willy Wonka’s Factory. The pan itself could be described as 'pebble dashed' Since you moonlight as a handler of rare Blood Beasts, finding them new pools of feculent slime to wallow in; that incident must have been a cakewalk! |
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Post by johnbrawn1972 on Jan 1, 2021 0:43:38 GMT
Finding the amulet in book 1 that has a connection with the captain in book 4... Only a little thing, but shows how well Steve thought the whole thing out. Even as a teenager, I never thought any of the names were rude. Like bloodbeasthandler, I pronounced it as anna-land. An underrated and humanising moment for Cap'n Cartoum, indeed.
Though I prefer to use the (I believe) only instance of the GOD spell to turn him into a drooling Igor sycophant. That is really interesting. I do not believe I find a Jewel of Gold on my route. Where do you find it? |
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Post by a moderator on Jan 1, 2021 1:13:56 GMT
You can get any spell component from Fenestra in a two-for-one trade, IIRC.
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Post by Law on Jan 1, 2021 1:59:15 GMT
You can get any spell component from Fenestra in a two-for-one trade, IIRC. Tee hee... I traded my gold-backed mirror and a vial of holy water for that jewel of gold; like a good-boy. I'm sure some readers flung a handful of sand and a pebble on her table!
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Jan 1, 2021 9:47:51 GMT
You can get any spell component from Fenestra in a two-for-one trade, IIRC. Tee hee... I traded my gold-backed mirror and a vial of holy water for that jewel of gold; like a good-boy. I'm sure some readers flung a handful of sand and a pebble on her table!
A pebble or two, goblin teeth. I confess I bent the rules a bit when i played it years ago and gave her those spell artefacts for the WOK spell - gold pieces. |
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Post by Law on Jan 1, 2021 12:19:04 GMT
Tee hee... I traded my gold-backed mirror and a vial of holy water for that jewel of gold; like a good-boy. I'm sure some readers flung a handful of sand and a pebble on her table!
A pebble or two, goblin teeth. I confess I bent the rules a bit when i played it years ago and gave her those spell artefacts for the WOK spell - gold pieces. Interestingly enough, the Analander doesn't need to use gold pieces to cast that spell, a copper penny would do! |
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Post by johnbrawn1972 on Jan 2, 2021 17:56:52 GMT
I feel cheated as you can only access the spells if you are not shunted down the Analander pathway. This means you can only cast GOD if you are playing the book independently of the others.
As far as I can tell you have to have a locket otherwise you are forced into a skill test roll. Seemingly then you can only pursue this route if you roll a 10 skill right at the beginning. So you could go to the mine for key 111 and the gems/Borrinskin boots while still passing the skill roll.
Did anyone else buy the books from 1983 to 1985? At first it seemed the Borrinskin boots were essential then ultimately it was revealed they were a red herring.
I still feel the books would be better without the warrior option as this would allow many more varied uses of the spells.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,453
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Jan 2, 2021 18:56:07 GMT
I feel cheated as you can only access the spells if you are not shunted down the Analander pathway. This means you can only cast GOD if you are playing the book independently of the others. Or you could have played the previous books but missed a serpent or two. |
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Post by johnbrawn1972 on Jan 2, 2021 20:59:24 GMT
I feel cheated as you can only access the spells if you are not shunted down the Analander pathway. This means you can only cast GOD if you are playing the book independently of the others. Or you could have played the previous books but missed a serpent or two. I had thought about this but a skill 5 having to roll a 2,3 or 4 is brutal. The route where you have bested all seven serpents means you can roll a 2,3,4,5 or 6 is reasonable. The gamebook mechanics here are as brutal as Caverns of the Snow Witch as once you start from the beginning the rest is almost academic. The only difference is whether to buy the +1 attack strength sword or the magical items. I think I am with Nathan(?) where I always buy the magical items and the 3 damage sword. My extreme use of the rules whereby I meet the academic twice in Khare makes this almost a necessity. In other words I have to buy Glandragor's axe. This is taking the rules to breaking point but there is no contradiction as far as I can tell. I am not sure how old I was before I knew what the reason was why the dice was the correct choice. I think because the books are adult oriented it was a number of years before I cottoned on as to the basic reason why the correct choice is what it is. I think I was baffled that the symbol itself meant something rather than it was simply a replacement for one. If you are playing as a warrior then the +1 attack strength sword is a necessity without question. |
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Post by a moderator on Jan 2, 2021 21:10:57 GMT
I still feel the books would be better without the warrior option as this would allow many more varied uses of the spells. I don't see how. Steve clearly wasn't allowing himself to be constrained by the 'need' to have a round number of sections in every book, so eliminating the few 'warrior-only' sections wouldn't have freed up space for additional magic use. Besides, considering the number of spell-use sections that say something along the lines of 'this spell does not exist', 'you cannot yet have the item needed for casting this spell' or 'this spell is completely inappropriate for the situation, you moron', it seems that Steve was having a hard enough time making use of the scope available to him as it was. |
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Post by johnbrawn1972 on Jan 2, 2021 21:21:26 GMT
I am not at all sure about this reasoning because there would be no rationale to have every encounter be suitable for a warrior only avatar.
The use of spells is very limited even if you want to exploit every opportunity.
Having to shoehorn in a genie to supply a way out for a warrior shows the problem of trying to be all things to all men.
There was no problem in Citadel in having spells and fighting. The writing clearly shows Sorcery was aimed at teenagers rather than 8-12 year olds.
Nevertheless I love that Sorcery allows a 5/14/7 to win especially if you take the rules to breaking point.
The amount of spell opportunities that were lost due to having to accommodate the warrior route is something of an opportunity lost.
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Post by Law on Jan 2, 2021 21:39:44 GMT
Epic or not... tangling with the young red eye thugs in Khare is done well. Walking into the wrong part of town and seeing trouble coming your way, deciding whether to brazen it out or run and if so potentially getting cornered and burned up. Ah, putting these hooligans in their place is so satisfying! They are no joke even for the best swordsman in the land and you have to tuck tail and run from these Heat-Vision spewing Droogies or be imprisoned.
But with a touch of magic...
A Lawful Good mage can merely scare the crapola out of them with the GAK Spell.
But a Chaotic Neutral mage can pay evil unto evil by using either KIN or MUD to slaughter the entire gang!
One of the only times AOE is taken into account and you school at least five with one action.
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Post by The Count on Jan 2, 2021 23:45:17 GMT
I still feel the books would be better without the warrior option as this would allow many more varied uses of the spells. I don't see how. Steve clearly wasn't allowing himself to be constrained by the 'need' to have a round number of sections in every book, so eliminating the few 'warrior-only' sections wouldn't have freed up space for additional magic use. Besides, considering the number of spell-use sections that say something along the lines of 'this spell does not exist', 'you cannot yet have the item needed for casting this spell' or 'this spell is completely inappropriate for the situation, you moron', it seems that Steve was having a hard enough time making use of the scope available to him as it was. I think it needed some constraints to prevent such wasted sections. |
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Post by a moderator on Jan 3, 2021 1:31:52 GMT
Having to shoehorn in a genie to supply a way out for a warrior shows the problem of trying to be all things to all men. The genie uses up at most 4 sections, less than 1% of the book. How drastically do you think the book would have been improved by freeing those 4 sections up for additional spell use? |
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