The Quest for Originality

[sylas]

Mar 8, 2021 11:47:31 GMT vastariner said:

Mar 8, 2021 0:50:36 GMT sylas said:

You know, I've read BVP about ten times and I've never realized that the tomb-robber had that degree of impact. An act of chance that decided the fate of the kingdom (I'm reminded of the rat in Avengers: Endgame). The layers in this adventure are incredible!

And it was tomb explorers that changed the fate of the creature in CoH OH MY GOD THEY ARE LITERALLY EXACTLY THE SAME

I'm starting to think that NONE of the books are original since they all feature YOU as the hero using the same set of 3 attributes.

[kieran]

Mar 8, 2021 15:11:25 GMT sleepyscholar said:

Mar 8, 2021 12:46:18 GMT kieran said:

My understanding is Leone never accepted Fistful of Dollars was based in any way on Yojimbo, but was forced by Kurosawa's lawyers to put an acknowledgement in.

In that case, my opinion of Leone has gone down drastically. There is no question that Fistful of Dollars is Yojimbo, and none the worse for it.

I haven't actually seen Yojimbo so can't really comment. I think Leone's argument was he was inspired by the same works that Kurosawa was - the American novel Red Harvest and the Italian play Servant of Two Masters so similarities were due to both directors having the same inspirations rather than Yojimbo directly inspiring Leone. Though since Leone agreed to settle out of court, presumably he wasn't convinced the courts would side with him there.

[bloodbeasthandler]

Mar 8, 2021 16:12:54 GMT kieran said:

Mar 8, 2021 15:11:25 GMT sleepyscholar said:

In that case, my opinion of Leone has gone down drastically. There is no question that Fistful of Dollars is Yojimbo, and none the worse for it.

I haven't actually seen Yojimbo so can't really comment. I think Leone's argument was he was inspired by the same works that Kurosawa was - the American novel Red Harvest and the Italian play Servant of Two Masters so similarities were due to both directors having the same inspirations rather than Yojimbo directly inspiring Leone. Though since Leone agreed to settle out of court, presumably he wasn't convinced the courts would side with him there.

Even PM's dark nemesis Bryan Ansell openly acknowledges influences when asked: 

RoC80s/CC: The work of Michael Moorcock is evident in chaos as a whole, but what else did you draw on and what were your literary and artistic influences in general?



BA: Certainly, Michael Moorcock was an influence and inspiration. Michael Moorcock and Tolkien cast massive shadows over the whole fantasy industry: in my case Jack Vance and Clark Ashton Smith were equally important.

I don't think our vision of Chaos Warriors overlaps much with that of Michael Moorcock (although we did occasionally borrow his arrow symbol).

For me, all the roots of the Chaos Warriors that Citadel made over the years lie with Frank Frazetta's "Death Dealer" paintings and sketches, the first few "Chaos Warriors" that Tony Ackland made at Asgard (also the one that Stan Pochron made) and John Blanche's sketches from the early 80s.

 

[tyrion]

Reminds me of the time John Fogerty got sued for sounding too much like John Fogerty.
While in Creedence Clearwater Revival, Fogerty wrote Run through the jungle. Later, as a solo artist he wrote Old man down the road, which sounds similar. His original record label sued him for copyright infringement.

[kieran]

Mar 8, 2021 16:39:34 GMT bloodbeasthandler said:

Even PM's dark nemesis Bryan Ansell openly acknowledges influences

I don't think Leone had an issue with acknowledging influences per se - apart from Red Harvest and Servant of Two Masters, he said Fistful of Dollars owed a debt to My Darling Clementine and Shane among other Westerns. He just seemed to take exception to the idea that there was a Yojimbo influence for whatever reason.

[dragonwarrior8]

This is a great discussion. Sure, the stop the evil wizard/demon from taking over the world (all by yourself no less!) has been done many times but that's because it makes for a really good quest and can have different variations put on it. Same with a typical dungeon crawl. If its done well Id gladly keep playing more of them. The only actual FF book Ive read that had me raising my eyebrows was strangely one that was quite original viewed strictly within the FF framework and that was Freeway Fighter. Now Im wondering if anyone else felt the same about it. Obviously though youd have to be familiar with the Mad Max franchise for that to happen.

[bloodbeasthandler]

Mar 8, 2021 18:27:50 GMT dragonwarrior8 said:

This is a great discussion. Sure, the stop the evil wizard/demon from taking over the world (all by yourself no less!) has been done many times but that's because it makes for a really good quest and can have different variations put on it. Same with a typical dungeon crawl. If its done well Id gladly keep playing more of them. The only actual FF book Ive read that had me raising my eyebrows was strangely one that was quite original viewed strictly within the FF framework and that was Freeway Fighter. Now Im wondering if anyone else felt the same about it. Obviously though youd have to be familiar with the Mad Max franchise for that to happen.

Though I got the book about 3 years after it came out I still hadn't seen [or rather been allowed to see] any of the Mad Max films and that's a key point really. As you say... if a book's done well...
But after the novelty of the adventure sheet with its rockets, iron spikes, spare wheels and oil slick tallies wore off I found the book weak both as a game and as a story. The biggest source of vexation to me was the running out of fuel again and again.

It's never been among my favourite FF books. Funnily enough, if I'd seen Mad Max previously maybe I'd have enjoyed it more. Who can say?

A few other points - post apocalyptic gamebooks can be done well - I enjoyed Joe Dever's Freeway Warrior books which came out 88 and 89. Again, I hope that FF13 didn't rule out similar books from getting written afterwards.

Also I don't mind it if these books 'tie-in' with certain popular trends at the time - I mean if a zombie series is taking tv by storm then by all means bring out a book about zombies; if flavour of the year is Game of Thrones then no objections from me for a gamebook of political intrigue and battles. Just let them be good.

[kieran]

Speaking of Mad Max in the context of originality in FF, Andrew Chapman said in an interview that the car chase in Rings of Kether was inspired by the car chase at the start of the original Mad Max film. Not sure it's all that obvious a tribute though!

[vastariner]

Mar 8, 2021 17:18:40 GMT tyrion said:

Reminds me of the time John Fogerty got sued for sounding too much like John Fogerty.
While in Creedence Clearwater Revival, Fogerty wrote Run through the jungle. Later, as a solo artist he wrote Old man down the road, which sounds similar. His original record label sued him for copyright infringement.

THREAD HIJACK

CCR song titles that would make great FF books:

Bad Moon Rising

Run Through The Jungle

Tombstone Shadow

[a moderator]

Mar 8, 2021 15:26:16 GMT sylas said:

I'm starting to think that NONE of the books are original since they all feature YOU as the hero using the same set of 3 attributes.

Blood of the Zombies doesn't use all three.

And it has a different combat system.

Yeah, I think I'll stick with the 'use established FF tropes in an interesting way' books.

[sylas]

Mar 8, 2021 21:21:46 GMT a moderator said:

Mar 8, 2021 15:26:16 GMT sylas said:

I'm starting to think that NONE of the books are original since they all feature YOU as the hero using the same set of 3 attributes.

Blood of the Zombies doesn't use all three.

And it has a different combat system.

Yeah, I think I'll stick with the 'use established FF tropes in an interesting way' books.

Blood of the Zombies is a difficult one to classify. I know it's supposed to be FF but since everything about it is not FF, I have a hard time believing it is part of any FF series.

[sleepyscholar]

Mar 8, 2021 16:39:34 GMT bloodbeasthandler said:

Even PM's dark nemesis Bryan Ansell openly acknowledges influences when asked: 

RoC80s/CC: The work of Michael Moorcock is evident in chaos as a whole, but what else did you draw on and what were your literary and artistic influences in general?



BA: Certainly, Michael Moorcock was an influence and inspiration. Michael Moorcock and Tolkien cast massive shadows over the whole fantasy industry: in my case Jack Vance and Clark Ashton Smith were equally important.

I don't think our vision of Chaos Warriors overlaps much with that of Michael Moorcock (although we did occasionally borrow his arrow symbol).

For me, all the roots of the Chaos Warriors that Citadel made over the years lie with Frank Frazetta's "Death Dealer" paintings and sketches, the first few "Chaos Warriors" that Tony Ackland made at Asgard (also the one that Stan Pochron made) and John Blanche's sketches from the early 80s.

As I've previously said, both here, and in response to, for example, the interview I did with Bryan for my fanzine, he often tells it straight, unlike certain other GW bosses.

In other words Warhammer lifts the image of Moorcock's work, and a large dose of misanthropy, but dispenses with the animating philosophy.

Incidentally, Ansell isn't entirely my nemesis. In a weird demonstration of my earlier yin-yang comment, Ansell was the founding editor of Trollcrusher, a role-playing APA that was the venue of my first published writing (albeit during the later tenure as editor of Lawrence Miller, then the manager of my local game shop, Dungeons & Starships, later manager of Games Workshop Birmingham). Amusingly, this is the only context in which he appears (misspelled in places) in Playing at the World, the history of wargames and role-playing by Jon Peterson.

[The Count]

Mar 8, 2021 22:32:24 GMT sylas said:

Mar 8, 2021 21:21:46 GMT a moderator said:

Blood of the Zombies doesn't use all three.

And it has a different combat system.

Yeah, I think I'll stick with the 'use established FF tropes in an interesting way' books.

Blood of the Zombies is a difficult one to classify. I know it's supposed to be FF but since everything about it is not FF, I have a hard time believing it is part of any FF series.

I don't count it as FF and classify it as Shy T.

[daredevil123]

Mar 8, 2021 21:16:19 GMT vastariner said:

Mar 8, 2021 17:18:40 GMT tyrion said:

Reminds me of the time John Fogerty got sued for sounding too much like John Fogerty.
While in Creedence Clearwater Revival, Fogerty wrote Run through the jungle. Later, as a solo artist he wrote Old man down the road, which sounds similar. His original record label sued him for copyright infringement.

THREAD HIJACK

CCR song titles that would make great FF books:

Bad Moon Rising

Run Through The Jungle

Tombstone Shadow

Bad Moon Rising is the name of the prologue in Howl of the Werewolf.

[sylas]

Mar 9, 2021 1:57:10 GMT The Count said:

Mar 8, 2021 22:32:24 GMT sylas said:

Blood of the Zombies is a difficult one to classify. I know it's supposed to be FF but since everything about it is not FF, I have a hard time believing it is part of any FF series.

I don't count it as FF and classify it as Shy T.

Thing is, while I know its impossible to play, if you disregard the background and the final part of the winning section as well as dice rolls, it's actually a decent story.

[The Count]

Mar 9, 2021 14:55:57 GMT sylas said:

Mar 9, 2021 1:57:10 GMT The Count said:

I don't count it as FF and classify it as Shy T.

Thing is, while I know its impossible to play, if you disregard the background and the final part of the winning section as well as dice rolls, it's actually a decent story.

Despite it being reasonably well written for a Livingstone effort (and it doesn't contain the usual trek through his previous books), I don't enjoy the story. The entire premise does nothing for me at all. Same with FEAR.

[bloodbeasthandler]

I've been looking through some other 'reviews' online and I've set myself a 'lockdown mini-quest'. Finding the most idiotic review of an FF book on the Internet. Goodness me there's some stiff competition. Some laugh out loud rubbish getting spouted on 'goodreads' that would not even be fit to appear on the bottom half of Youtube... and I haven't even looked at Amazon yet. 

[vastariner]

The worst review I've ever seen is on Amazon, on David Kynaston's book The City Of London.

A a real cockney, I was misled into thinking this would be a history of the City of London: the guilds, the churches, the schools, the hospitals etc. Instead it was just about the Stock Exchange, the banks and finance.

[bloodbeasthandler]

Mar 9, 2021 21:40:18 GMT vastariner said:

The worst review I've ever seen is on Amazon, on David Kynaston's book The City Of London.

A a real cockney, I was misled into thinking this would be a history of the City of London: the guilds, the churches, the schools, the hospitals etc. Instead it was just about the Stock Exchange, the banks and finance.

Challenge accepted.