kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,458
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on May 23, 2022 16:31:10 GMT
Unlike peasantscribbler, I decided to go on a Forest of Doom killing spree A combination of this arrogance, picking up a Ring of Clumsiness and some astonishingly bad dice rolls saw me hacked to death by the bandits in my first sweep of the forest. At least I took their leader down.
Sk9 St21 Lu11
Kills Hobgoblin x2 Sting Worm Ogre Goblin Ape-Man Giant Spider Forest Giant Death Hawk x3 Bandit
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Post by a moderator on May 25, 2022 13:22:08 GMT
I'm not playing for points, so there was no good reason for me to go on a killing spree in Forest, especially with stats on the lower side of average. Nevertheless, my Skill 9 Stamina 19 Luck 8 character got into a lot of unnecessary fights as well as the required or unavoidable ones, and killed:
2 Hobgoblins Sting Worm Goblin Ape Man Barbarian 3 Vampire Bats 2 Wild Hill Men 2 Gremlins Gremlin Gremlin Chief Gremlin 5 Bandits
For a while I was contemplating looping round, but the Gremlin tunnels depleted my Luck, so I settled for a single pass through Darkwood and a relatively easy victory.
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Post by vastariner on May 26, 2022 10:46:50 GMT
Well, nobody else is going for it, so let's give The Dervish Stone a whirl.
Sk 7 (ugh)
St 15 (OMG) Lu 10
And I start with a sword, 20 GP, and two Potions of Luck, which I ought to have drunk before rolling the bones.
Loot:
20 GP - I assume this is the intro GP; spent some on equipment and lost the rest on a failed Luck roll and a clubbing
Potion of human control - which the adventure forces me to drink almost instantly
Rotten fruit - wonder if that is a provision?
Manacles
Leg irons
Rope
Gen:
The info re the big diamond somewhere in Dervishland
Bought:
3 gas ampoules
What amounts to binos
Scraps:
Bitten by a lizard at the start (-1 St)
Legged it from the Night Ghoul ASAP (-2St, -2Lu), who was evidently hungry, as he had all my vittles
Three Lizard Men, whom I get via gas, and then lose 1 Luck for not fighting 1 v 3 with a lower skill, FFS
Two Bugbear guards, whom I get via gas, and then GAIN 1 Luck for not fighting 1 v 2 with a lower skill
And then I get stabbed to death while having a nap. By which time St is down to 8 because of hunger.
Incidentally, the adventure assumes one has a lantern, and who am I to disagree?
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Post by a moderator on May 26, 2022 12:40:49 GMT
Well, nobody else is going for it, so let's give The Dervish Stone a whirl. Sk 7 (ugh)
St 15 (OMG) Lu 10
And I start with a sword, 20 GP, and two Potions of Luck, which I ought to have drunk before rolling the bones. Loot:
20 GP - I assume this is the intro GP; spent some on equipment and lost the rest on a failed Luck roll and a clubbing
Potion of human control - which the adventure forces me to drink almost instantly
Rotten fruit - wonder if that is a provision?
Manacles
Leg irons
Rope
Gen:
The info re the big diamond somewhere in Dervishland
Bought:
3 gas ampoules
What amounts to binos
Scraps:
Bitten by a lizard at the start (-1 St)
Legged it from the Night Ghoul ASAP (-2St, -2Lu), who was evidently hungry, as he had all my vittles
Three Lizard Men, whom I get via gas, and then lose 1 Luck for not fighting 1 v 3 with a lower skill, FFS
Two Bugbear guards, whom I get via gas, and then GAIN 1 Luck for not fighting 1 v 2 with a lower skill
And then I get stabbed to death while having a nap. By which time St is down to 8 because of hunger.
Incidentally, the adventure assumes one has a lantern, and who am I to disagree? I intend to play The Dervish Stone as well - I've played both titles every other week. As I recall, avoiding the death that finished you off leads to an unavoidable fight against an opponent with 11 or 12 SKILL (it varies depending on what you do), with your character taking automatic STAMINA damage every time you wound the enemy, so you probably wouldn't have got much further whatever you did.
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Post by a moderator on May 27, 2022 23:22:50 GMT
My Skill 7 loser got further through The Dervish Stone than I expected. In the end the variable-Skilled Bronze Golem (it's 10 or 11 rather than 11 or 12, but that's still pretty hopeless for a below-average hero - and the Skill 10 variant has an additional 'autokill if it wins 3 consecutive rounds' ability, which it successfully employed against me).
Enemies killed Goblin Night Ghoul War-Cat Lauper 2 Bugbear Guards 24-hour (or thereabouts) warning for nathanh and mudworm. Week 22This century - Ascent of Darkness ( Fantazine 11) Last century - Fangs of Fury
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Post by terrysalt on May 28, 2022 0:32:13 GMT
Praise be. The RNG didn't completely screw me over stat-wise for a change. Fangs of Fury Skill: 9 Stamina: 16 Luck: 7 Guide: Champskees Items: 6 provisions, 5 gp, 13 black cubes, 11 white cubes, triangle block 15, key, mushroom block 50, circle block 27, cube block 22, cross block 39, crescent block 75, wand Kills: goblin guard, 2 orcs, mage warrior Info: religion named XEN, 247 has alphabet code, lock 18, do not pull, left path - beast, right path - weaponry My low luck (both RL and in-game) almost killed me at the end. It took me NINE attempts to roll a double and then I failed 2 of the 3 luck tests. Luckily I managed to survive with 3 stamina* and collapsed over the finish line, bloodied but victorious and cursing Luke Sharp's name. *Yes, yes, I had plenty of provisions but shush, it's a better story this way.
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Post by nathanh on May 28, 2022 10:41:45 GMT
I rolled some very high stats, so I had to seek out a lot of encounters to compete for the "most kills" in Forest of Doom. Sk 12 St 18 Lu 12
Kills: 2 HOBGOBLINS, STINGWORM, OGRE, GOBLIN, APE MAN, FISH MAN, WEREWOLF, 2 WILD HILL MEN, GREMLIN, GREMLIN, 2 GREMLINS, 5 BANDITS For full transparency, I used my map from previous plays, which isn't exhaustive but gave me enough to know where the must-have items are. I hadn't learned where the Silver Key was before this playthrough though.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on May 29, 2022 15:05:38 GMT
Yesterday I put through a special request to Greenspine that I be given a couple of hours grace to submit my FoD playthrough due to an annual event. He agreed, provided that I don't fall back on any of my other birthdays (official, back-up, emergency...). Firm but fair. Whether he realised that 'a couple' was going to mean '16' I'm not sure – I did not. I don't know FoD at all well and the playthrough felt very long, despite my not successfully returning to the start. Frankly I was grateful to the hillmen – their intervention felt like euthanasia, especially as neither handle nor head was in my backpack. Anyway if anyone objects to this playthrough being so late I'll understand it it's discounted. SKILL: 12 STAMINA: 18 LUCK: 7 Final inventory: Rope of Climbing, Boots of Leaping, Nose Filters, Potion of Anti-Poison, Armband of Strength, Eye of Amber, brass bell, ingot worth 28 gold, clay hand Gold: 9 Provisions: 0 Notes: goblin skeleton in crypt to North Fights won: Giant Spider, 5 x gremlins, wyvern, 5 x bandits
Might edit in more comment later.
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Post by a moderator on May 29, 2022 20:57:48 GMT
Week 21 scoring
1st: nathanh - 16 (stats bonus 1 + victory bonus 10 + most fights won bonus 5) 2nd: peasantscribbler – 14 (stats bonus 4 + victory bonus 10) 3rd: terrysalt – 12 (stats bonus 2 + victory bonus 10) 4th: vastariner - 5 (stats bonus 5) 5th: thealmightymudworm - 4 (stats bonus 4)* 6th: kieran – 2 (stats bonus 2)
Running totals
1st: nathanh – 176 2nd: terrysalt - 174 3rd: vastariner – 148 4th: kieran - 100 5th: peasantscribbler - 99 6th: thealmightymudworm - 87* 7th: The Count - 85 8th: schlendrian - 52
*Unless there are any objections to mudworm's belated submission.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,458
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Jun 1, 2022 13:33:51 GMT
Had a go at Fangs of Fury: Sk10 St16 Lu11 I made it as far as the maze within the Fangs but my low initial Stamina was my undoing. I reached a point where your Stamina minus the blocks you were carrying needed to be more than 12 or you fall to your death. My Stamina was 13 and I had 4 blocks. I wasn't sure if I was allowed to ditch the blocks then seek out replacements in the maze but assumed I couldn't and dutifully plunged to oblivion.
Combats won Knuckler x2 Goblin Irregular Goblin Executioner Rogue x2 Bodyguard Knight Giant Rogue Catcher Marsh Fiend Goblin Fire Demon x2 Dragonman x3
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Post by vastariner on Jun 1, 2022 19:12:52 GMT
Ascent of Darkness.
Interesting way to roll stats...
Sk 10 St 18 Lu 10; will go with the Logaan thing and start Lu 12
C'est pas l'heure:
Carry-on luggage:
Sword Spear Shield (-1 opp A/s) Helmet 50 GPs
Detritus:
Caarth warrior
And then I lost 4 St trying to get the Caarth warrior mage - which was a problem as I was down to 2 St after ONE combat...
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Post by vastariner on Jun 3, 2022 10:52:17 GMT
Will try Fangs of Fury, given I've probably not played it since it came out.
Sk 12 St 16 Lu 9 Souvenirs: White die; number from rolls: 17 Extra 41 GPs Triangle pattern block with number 15 2x Mushroom with number 50 Circle with 27 Cube with 22 Cross with 39 Crescent with 75 Key
My preciouses: Star Crystal
Detritus: Goblin guard 2 orcs The Thing 3 Garks Mage warrior
Gen: Look to the Wazarri Silent Knights Religion is called XEN Water Rogue catchers are after me Follow forest path to bridge, but look to warrior with fist of fire The stuff that's at para 389
Towers gone: 7
And I end up winning because I can read the semaphore on the broken bit of parchment by using genre knowledge and cryptography. How many 8 letter numbers have three letters the same in positions 1, 6, and 7? I'm counting that on the basis that it rewards the intelligence the character is supposed to have, but, if that's a cheat, then the adventure ends where the character gets to the lock and basically has four chances to smash it.
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Post by a moderator on Jun 3, 2022 14:17:46 GMT
And I end up winning because I can read the semaphore on the broken bit of parchment by using genre knowledge and cryptography. How many 8 letter numbers have three letters the same in positions 1, 6, and 7? I'm counting that on the basis that it rewards the intelligence the character is supposed to have, but, if that's a cheat, then the adventure ends where the character gets to the lock and basically has four chances to smash it. Seems reasonable to me. If gamebook authors don't want the readers to crack codes without the key, they need to either create a cypher that's not vulnerable to basic cryptography or to include something in the text that prevents players who didn't follow the 'true path' from being able to solve it with just their wits (eg a plot token acquired while learning the key, or even just asking 'Have you seen the key?' and restricting the options if the answer is 'no').
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Post by a moderator on Jun 3, 2022 23:07:07 GMT
On my third ever attempt at Ascent I finally survived for long enough to find out what the actual plot involves. I was expecting another rapid failure after losing almost half my Stamina in the first fight. However, for the first 3 rounds of the fight against the Caarth Champion, we tied on Attack Strength, but Stunt damage whittled away my enemy's Stamina, and I scraped though with 1 point remaining.
Then, within sight of home, I was unavoidably shot with a poisoned arrow, and died. Presumably one of the items I didn't take from the Druids acts as an antidote or enables me to evade the ambush, but with no hints as to what most of the treasures do until you select them, the choice between life and death is a little too random for my liking. 24-hour warning for the usual suspects. Week 23
This century - Creature of HavocLast century - The Keep of the Lich-Lord
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Post by terrysalt on Jun 4, 2022 3:44:27 GMT
A book where I don't need it so of course I roll skill: 12 stamina: 20 luck: 10 Resolve: 8
items: ring of fays, polished shield, 10 gold, iron key, charm of disruption kills: 2 undead guards, 3 undead archers, Davmori the undead info: 253 to use charm guide: Champskees
Lich-lord successfully kept!
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Post by nathanh on Jun 4, 2022 9:44:21 GMT
Edit: I didn't realise my Shield reduced my opponent's attack strength by 1. I didn't die after all.
Edit 2: I had to re-do the adventure from the start but I still died to the CAARTH CHAMPION. Sk 10 St 16 Lu 10.
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Post by peasantscribbler on Jun 4, 2022 19:15:13 GMT
First I tried Ascent of Darkness, but I died fighting the Caarth Champion. So, I gave Fangs of Fury a try, and it was a lot better than I remembered. At least until I ran into the Sharpism that killed me. I died when I was hit by two fireballs thrown by a Genie from whom I was running away. The first fireball did 4 St and 1 Sk of damage. The second fireball was instant death, so effectively 14 St points of damage in my case. I contend that this scenario would be much less aggravating if all fireballs did equal damage (though I realize that I might not have made it much further with my Skill reduced to 5).
Initial Stats: Skill=7, Stamina=18, Luck=10
Fights Won (1) Horned Devil
Items Acquired 30 gold 2 star crystals armour
Information Gathered I missed all the important stuff about the white cubes.
Didn't use a guide.
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Post by a moderator on Jun 4, 2022 22:24:54 GMT
I covered some territory I'd not previously explored in Fangs of Fury. Near the beginning I fell into a trap and discovered a network of crawlways connecting all the traps.
Thanks to Long John Silver's thieving monkey, I had to go for a gem hunt in the Dragonlands.
In an effort to make up for the time wasted on that side quest, I tried riding a horse, which turned out to be booby-trapped. Game over.
Kill count Great Orc 2 Knuclers Goblin Irregular Goblin Executioner 2 Rogues Horned Devil Rogue Catcher Kragaar Dragonman Dragonman
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Jun 4, 2022 22:50:17 GMT
Took a shot at Fangs of Fury (which for once I own)
SKILL 7
STAMINA 24
LUCK 12 (?!)
I'm absolutely kicking myself. For once I gave this a quick playthrough earlier in the week as preparation. For that I took a potion of fortune as that's often the right thing to do. During the playthrough though I lost a SKILL point and was reminded that that can happen quite easily in this book. Having rolled a 7 for the real playthrough, I took a potion of SKILL. Needless to say, I lost no SKILL points on the real playthrough but had to use LUCK to compensate for my crappy SKILL in combat.
I got right through to the Fangs of Fury and had an epic battle with a Mage Warrior (Skill 8 Stamina 10) in which I was effectively on SKILL 5 (due to fighting wand-free) STAMINA 20, which left me on STAMINA 1, LUCK 4, only to see it followed by the need for a triple LUCK test. Even 1 successful test would have seen me limp to the end, but rolling 4 or under, or failing that 3 or under, or failing that 2 exactly, is tricky. A quick swig letting me surge to LUCK 13 (unlucky for some!) would have done nicely.
Final details: SKILL: 7 STAMINA: 9 LUCK: 1
Provisions: 0 Black cubes: 11 Gold: 7 Walls down: 9 Inventory: Potion of Skill, key Notes: Name of religion is XEN, look out for white cubes, Talin alphabet shows A-H, I-P, Q-X, Y, Z, follow the forest path forwards until bridge, but instead of crossing look for female warrior with the fist of fire. Find the key and heed the warnings, carry the blocks and place them carefully, the door to fury will then open
Fights won: 2 x knuclers, goblin irregular, goblin executioner, rogue sailor, kragaar, 3 x garks, mage warrior
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Post by terrysalt on Jun 5, 2022 7:30:13 GMT
Took a shot at Fangs of Fury (which for once I own)
SKILL 7
STAMINA 24
LUCK 12 (?!)
I'm absolutely kicking myself. For once I gave this a quick playthrough earlier in the week as preparation. For that I took a potion of fortune as that's often the right thing to do. During the playthrough though I lost a SKILL point and was reminded that that can happen quite easily in this book. Having rolled a 7 for the real playthrough, I took a potion of SKILL. Needless to say, I lost no SKILL points on the real playthrough but had to use LUCK to compensate for my crappy SKILL in combat.
I got right through to the Fangs of Fury and had an epic battle with a Mage Warrior (Skill 8 Stamina 10) in which I was effectively on SKILL 5 (due to fighting wand-free) STAMINA 20, which left me on STAMINA 1, LUCK 4, only to see it followed by the need for a triple LUCK test. Even 1 successful test would have seen me limp to the end, but rolling 4 or under, or failing that 3 or under, or failing that 2 exactly, is tricky. A quick swig letting me surge to LUCK 13 (unlucky for some!) would have done nicely.
Final details: SKILL: 7 STAMINA: 9 LUCK: 1
Provisions: 0 Black cubes: 11 Gold: 7 Walls down: 9 Inventory: Potion of Skill, key Notes: Name of religion is XEN, look out for white cubes, Talin alphabet shows A-H, I-P, Q-X, Y, Z, follow the forest path forwards until bridge, but instead of crossing look for female warrior with the fist of fire. Find the key and heed the warnings, carry the blocks and place them carefully, the door to fury will then open
Fights won: 2 x knuclers, goblin irregular, goblin executioner, rogue sailor, kragaar, 3 x garks, mage warrior
Don't beat yourself up too much. I think most people would have made a similar call given the stats you rolled. I had a luck of 7 so my choice of potion was never in question (and I still only passed 1 of the 3 luck tests).
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Post by a moderator on Jun 5, 2022 12:52:45 GMT
Week 22 scoring 1st: terrysalt – 15 (stats bonus 5 + victory bonus 10) 2nd: vastariner - 14 (stats bonus 4 + victory bonus 10) 3rd: kieran – 9 (stats bonus 4 + most fights won bonus 5) 4th= nathanh - 4 (stats bonus 4) 4th= peasantscribbler – 4 (stats bonus 4) 6th: thealmightymudworm - 1 (stats bonus 1)
Running totals 1st: terrysalt - 189 2nd: nathanh – 180 3rd: vastariner – 162 4th: kieran - 109 5th: peasantscribbler - 103 6th: thealmightymudworm - 88 7th: The Count - 85 8th: schlendrian - 52
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,458
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Jun 7, 2022 8:32:01 GMT
Went with Keep Sk8 St22 Lu7 Re8 Some lucky dice rolling saw me past a couple of tough fights and reach victory, collapsing the dam on top of Lord Mortis' head.
Combats won Thrasher Undead Tomb-Robber Lady Lotmora Vampire x2 Captain Jarmesh Wolfpack A Murder of Crows Skull Beast Undead Guard x2 Undead Archer x3 Davmori the Undead
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Post by vastariner on Jun 10, 2022 18:10:24 GMT
Keep of the Lich Lord.
Sk 7 f**k
St 22
Lu 7 f**k's sake
Resolve 11
I've basically created Bluto.
And that ridiculous low skill and luck make it impossible to get past the first fight. Temple guardian takes me down - not helped by me winning three attack rounds and having EVERY SINGLE WIN reduced to 1 St damage because of stupid.
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Post by nathanh on Jun 10, 2022 21:20:01 GMT
Well, I went on an epic journey in Keep of the Lich Lord, visiting some areas where I had never been before. With the Spear (or Sharpened Sword for non-undead), Armour, and Shield, you can be a powerful fighting force, although there were several fights where I was close to death (I needed luck twice against the TEMPLE GUARDIAN, and rolling a 1 against the ROCK GOLEM would have killed me too). In the end I felt confident enough to do battle with Lord Mortis: although he had the SKILL advantage, I was dealing 4 damage on a hit and taking only 1 damage, and had plenty of LUCK. Sk 8 St 17 Lu 9 Re 9 Kills: THRASHER, UNDEAD TOMB ROBBER, 3 CHAOS PIRATES, TEMPLE GUARDIAN, 3 WHIPPERWOLVES, ROCK GOLEM, WOLFPACK, MURDER OF CROWS, SKULL BEAST, 2 UNDEAD GUARDS, 3 UNDEAD ARCHERS, DAVMORI THE UNDEAD, LORD MORTIS
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Post by a moderator on Jun 10, 2022 23:11:49 GMT
Starting Keep with 11 Skill, 23 Stamina and 10 Luck, I only had misgivings about my Resolve, which was a measly 6. I only just succeeded at the very first Resolve roll, but the increase I gained for beating that set me up for resounding successes in all subsequent tests. In the end I took Mortis out with the spear.
Combats won Thrasher Undead Grave-Robber Temple Guardian 3 Whipperwolves Rock Golem Chaos Pirate Ogre Chaos Pirate Orc Wolfpack Murder of Crows Skull Beast 2 Zombies 3 Undead Archers Davmori the Undead
24-hour warning for peasantscribbler and thealmightymudworm Week 24This century - The Citadel of ChaosLast century - Beneath Nightmare Castle
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Post by terrysalt on Jun 11, 2022 0:32:22 GMT
Rather than take the guaranteed win of Citadel, I decided to try my luck in BNC. Skill: 10 Stamina: 16 Luck: 12 Willpower: 10
items: 1 gold, potion of berserk rage, 5 meals, green globe, Trident of Skarlos, Talisman of Loth fights: 6 swordsmen, snuff hound, southern swordsman, gamine thief (1 round only), giant spiders, unknown assailant. 2 southern swordsmen, Senyakhaz knowledge: don't use talisman in front of a mirror guide: Champskees
As far as I can tell, the trident doesn't allow you to exceed your initial skill but that ended up not being all that important as I steamrolled through every single fight in the game. I only lost a single attack round the whole game (against Senyakhaz).
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Post by CharlesX on Jun 11, 2022 0:46:20 GMT
Rather than take the guaranteed win of Citadel, I decided to try my luck in BNC. Skill: 10 Stamina: 16 Luck: 12 Willpower: 10 items: 1 gold, potion of berserk rage, 5 meals, green globe, Trident of Skarlos, Talisman of Loth fights: 6 swordsmen, snuff hound, southern swordsman, gamine thief (1 round only), giant spiders, unknown assailant. 2 southern swordsmen, Senyakhaz knowledge: don't use talisman in front of a mirror guide: Champskees As far as I can tell, the trident doesn't allow you to exceed your initial skill but that ended up not being all that important as I steamrolled through every single fight in the game. I only lost a single attack round the whole game (against Senyakhaz). BNC has an RPG\sandbox-like choice of paths which makes it ideal for competitive play such as this. My only (!) criticism of BNC is buying first the Trident Head, before getting or not getting the Trident itself, feels like a Livingstone item hunt. This happens quite a bit in FF - a tradesman sells you a random, mystery key which could have come from anywhere on Titan, but which so happens to turn in the exact same building where it would be helpful!
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Post by a moderator on Jun 11, 2022 1:00:51 GMT
As far as I can tell, the trident doesn't allow you to exceed your initial skill but that ended up not being all that important as I steamrolled through every single fight in the game. I only lost a single attack round the whole game (against Senyakhaz). The rules to BNC do not contain the usual restriction on exceeding your Initial Skill. They do, however, say that you cannot exceed your Initial Stamina or Luck 'unless specifically stated', suggesting that the lack of a cap on Skill is intentional.
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Post by terrysalt on Jun 11, 2022 1:43:24 GMT
As far as I can tell, the trident doesn't allow you to exceed your initial skill but that ended up not being all that important as I steamrolled through every single fight in the game. I only lost a single attack round the whole game (against Senyakhaz). The rules to BNC do not contain the usual restriction on exceeding your Initial Skill. They do, however, say that you cannot exceed your Initial Stamina or Luck 'unless specifically stated', suggesting that the lack of a cap on Skill is intentional. Ah, good catch.
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Post by peasantscribbler on Jun 11, 2022 14:29:52 GMT
For the record, I did try Creature of Havoc, but I was killed early on by Black Elves. So, I switched to Keep of the Lich Lord, and I managed to just scrape through to victory. The Rock Golem had me down to 1 Stamina point, and I reached Mortis with only 2 Stamina points remaining. I didn't think I could beat him hand-to-hand, so I threw the spear and killed him that way.
Initial Stats: Skill=9, Stamina=19, Luck=10, Resolve=11
Fights Won (18) Thrasher Undead Tomb-Robber Temple Guardian First Whipperwolf Second Whipperwolf Third Whipperwolf Rock Golem Wolfpack Murder of Crows Skull Beast First Undead Guard Second Undead Guard First Undead Archer Second Undead Archer Third Undead Archer First Undead Guard (a different one) Second Undead Guard (a different one) Davmori the Undead
Items Acquired 85 gold Spear of Qadarni golden whistle Elixer of Lhyss iron mace Shadow Cloak iron key
Information Gathered Mortis was originally killed by the Spear of Qadarnai. I also learned the Charm of Disruption from Lady Iola, but I didn't use it.
Didn't use a guide.
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