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Post by misomiso on Dec 29, 2021 9:55:06 GMT
If you could give one piece of feedback to Ian Livingstone and Steve Jackson for their 2022 books, what would it be?
For Ian, I would say please please please listen to some of the criticism of the recent books; his early books are amazing, and even his middle books that are not so highly regarded had a lot going for them, but his recent ones have not been nearly as good. I know it's asking a lot, but I remember before Howl of the Werewolf J Green did a lot of community research and the result is one the greatest gamebooks in the series. Ian can do the same!
For Steve I would just say please push the bounds of creativity again. He was always the most experimental of the two, and his later efforts like House of Hell and Creature of Havoc were really showed a lot of outside the box thinking. We would like to see that again!
Anyway just my two cents.
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Dec 29, 2021 10:09:42 GMT
Advice: Get people who know about gamebooks to playtest the book to destruction and listen to the feedback and act on it.
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Dec 29, 2021 10:17:10 GMT
Having said that, that advice might be pointless because it would be too late - the book would have already been written and IL would be unlikely to do a complete rewrite or restructure if it was fundamentally flawed.
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Post by terrysalt on Dec 29, 2021 11:46:58 GMT
My advice to Ian would be to abandon his "everyone cheats so balancing the game is unnecessary" attitude. Probably a bit much to ask but a guy can dream.
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Post by CharlesX on Dec 29, 2021 12:48:23 GMT
If my biggest criticism of IL is his difficulty level, and the second biggest his pedestrian originality (which has only become worse instead of better with his recent works, as has been said), my third criticism is his heavy carelessness about the rules, which affects gameplay as well as enjoyment. It wouldn't take half-an-hour for Livingstone or others to notice the rules ambiguities and barrage of skill bonuses which do not affect attack strength. Jackson isn't quite as bad in this regard, but then his COH had the notorious misprint - and after that, the illustration of the Rhino-man missing the vital number. As mentioned elsewhere, the one time in COTM they took the book to task (from a different time and place), it introduced new errors where the skill from the previous, harder book was kept.
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Post by misomiso on Dec 29, 2021 13:01:10 GMT
On difficulty level, I think the target to hit for IL is Deathtrap Dungeon and City of Theives - yes they are both very difficult but they both feel 'reasnoble' if you have good stats etc, where some of the others just feel ludicrous.
I completely agree on playtesting and balancing gameplay though. It wouldn't take much to have somebody do a thorough playtest / look through. Hell even some people from the community would be up for it I think for free.
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Post by The Count on Dec 29, 2021 16:05:43 GMT
Get them properly playtested, proofread and copy edited - something that hasn't happened with a single book in the range leading to rule ambiguities, excessive difficulty and game breaking bugs.
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Post by Wilf on Dec 29, 2021 16:12:56 GMT
Ian should read one of Steve's books, to see how it works. Ideally, Creature Of Havoc. And also the works of Jonathan Green and Victoria Hancox. (And Sleepyscholar, I s'pose. ) Creating the form is one thing; improving and perfecting it is another. Ian's writing with these authors' techniques and tricks would be a winning combination. In fact, I would like to see the minimum qualifications for anyone writing a new FF is having first read Creature Of Havoc, The Crimson Tide, Siege Of Sardath, Alice's Nightmare In Wonderland, and Nightshift. Ian Livingstone's, Charlie Higson's and Rhianna Pratchett's books for Scholastic all have much to commend them (Ian's handling of Allansia; Charlie's irreverent prose style; Rhianna's imaginative worldbuilding), but they are all very, very fundamentally flawed in terms of gameplay.
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Post by sleepyscholar on Dec 29, 2021 16:37:08 GMT
In fact, I would like to see the minimum qualifications for anyone writing a new FF is having first read Creature Of Havoc, The Crimson Tide, Siege Of Sardath, Alice's Nightmare In Wonderland, and Nightshift. Personally I'd say they needed to read Heart of Ice. But since the thread refers to IL and SJ books, any of these requirements demand a level of humility that might be difficult.
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Post by CharlesX on Dec 29, 2021 16:40:52 GMT
Ian should read one of Steve's books, to see how it works. Ideally, Creature Of Havoc. And also the works of Jonathan Green and Victoria Hancox. (And Sleepyscholar, I s'pose. ) Creating the form is one thing; improving and perfecting it is another. Ian's writing with these authors' techniques and tricks would be a winning combination. In fact, I would like to see the minimum qualifications for anyone writing a new FF is having first read Creature Of Havoc, The Crimson Tide, Siege Of Sardath, Alice's Nightmare In Wonderland, and Nightshift. Ian Livingstone's, Charlie Higson's and Rhianna Pratchett's books for Scholastic all have much to commend them (Ian's handling of Allansia; Charlie's irreverent prose style; Rhianna's imaginative worldbuilding), but they are all very, very fundamentally flawed in terms of gameplay. Alice's Nightmare In Wonderland might be well-written and well-intentioned, but the gameplay is poor, with few combats & other challenges, and an overemphasis on story elements over replay value. The shield is gameplay-breaking, and the chess puzzle is unfair. I recommend instead Gamebook Adventures, the works of Dave Morris, and (more from FF) P. Mason and S. Hand. Btw R. Pratchett's writing style in her Crystal Of Storms kind of reminds me of the Knightmare books from around 1990, which is a compliment.
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Post by Wilf on Dec 29, 2021 18:46:40 GMT
In fact, I would like to see the minimum qualifications for anyone writing a new FF is having first read Creature Of Havoc, The Crimson Tide, Siege Of Sardath, Alice's Nightmare In Wonderland, and Nightshift. Personally I'd say they needed to read Heart of Ice. *googles*
Just read some very encouraging reviews of this one. Probably a bit too soon to put it on my 2022 Crimbo pressie list, but might take the plunge before then...
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Post by terrysalt on Dec 29, 2021 19:09:46 GMT
Jackson isn't quite as bad in this regard, but then his COH had the notorious misprint - and after that, the illustration of the Rhino-man missing the vital number. Given how much he trolls the player in that book, I'm still not fully convinced that WAS a typo. What's the rhino-man thing? I haven't heard about that one before.
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Post by terrysalt on Dec 29, 2021 19:15:17 GMT
I recommend instead Gamebook Adventures, the works of Dave Morris, and (more from FF) the late P. Mason and S. Hand. Btw R. Pratchett's writing style in her Crystal Of Storms kind of reminds me of the Knightmare books from around 1990, which is a compliment. I thought you were saying Paul had died at first.
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Post by CharlesX on Dec 29, 2021 19:22:29 GMT
Jackson isn't quite as bad in this regard, but then his COH had the notorious misprint - and after that, the illustration of the Rhino-man missing the vital number. Given how much he trolls the player in that book, I'm still not fully convinced that WAS a typo. What's the rhino-man thing? I haven't heard about that one before. Apparently, a later edition removed the 'typo', and a still later edition replaced it, which goes some way to confirming your hypothesis, or its just the editors being idiots * shrugs * (source: Titannica). At some point in in COH, you're told to talk to a Rhino-man at Thugruff's camp, who you can identify via a number on the tag (the more standard illustration has it pretty prominent). A fairly recent edition of COH doesn't include any number on the illustration of the Rhino-man in Thugruff's camp.
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Post by CharlesX on Dec 29, 2021 19:29:16 GMT
I recommend instead Gamebook Adventures, the works of Dave Morris, and (more from FF) the late P. Mason and S. Hand. Btw R. Pratchett's writing style in her Crystal Of Storms kind of reminds me of the Knightmare books from around 1990, which is a compliment. I thought you were saying Paul had died at first. 🐑 Carl Sargent is the dead FF author isn't he?
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Post by daredevil123 on Dec 29, 2021 19:58:45 GMT
I thought you were saying Paul had died at first. 🐑 Carl Sargent is the dead FF author isn't he? Yes. As much as I dislike Legend of Zagor, I'm still hoping Scholastic releases an edition correctly credited to him.
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Post by CharlesX on Dec 29, 2021 20:02:58 GMT
Edited the original Mason/Sargent reference so its more correct and also in case anyone wants to quote it.
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Post by terrysalt on Dec 29, 2021 20:14:05 GMT
Given how much he trolls the player in that book, I'm still not fully convinced that WAS a typo. What's the rhino-man thing? I haven't heard about that one before. Apparently, a later edition removed the 'typo', and a still later edition replaced it, which goes some way to confirming your hypothesis, or its just the editors being idiots * shrugs * (source: Titannica). At some point in in COH, you're told to talk to a Rhino-man at Thugruff's camp, who you can identify via a number on the tag (the more standard illustration has it pretty prominent). A fairly recent edition of COH doesn't include any number on the illustration of the Rhino-man in Thugruff's camp. Ah, thanks. I only have the Puffin version of the book where the picture is fine.
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Post by misomiso on Dec 30, 2021 8:06:51 GMT
Ian should read one of Steve's books, to see how it works. Ideally, Creature Of Havoc. And also the works of Jonathan Green and Victoria Hancox. (And Sleepyscholar, I s'pose. ) Creating the form is one thing; improving and perfecting it is another. Ian's writing with these authors' techniques and tricks would be a winning combination. In fact, I would like to see the minimum qualifications for anyone writing a new FF is having first read Creature Of Havoc, The Crimson Tide, Siege Of Sardath, Alice's Nightmare In Wonderland, and Nightshift. Ian Livingstone's, Charlie Higson's and Rhianna Pratchett's books for Scholastic all have much to commend them (Ian's handling of Allansia; Charlie's irreverent prose style; Rhianna's imaginative worldbuilding), but they are all very, very fundamentally flawed in terms of gameplay. Why Crimson Tide and Siege of Sardath over some of the others?
I would say Vault of the Vampire, Dead of Night / Legend of the Shadow Warriors, The 1st two 'Inkle' Sorcery! Games (they are very good and an help with inspiration I think), Stormslayer as a start, then maybe books like Beneath Nightmare Castle and Sword of the Samurai for different inspirations.
That would be just from the 'non-big ones' of FF though don't know about the others.
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Post by The Count on Dec 30, 2021 12:17:56 GMT
In fact, I would like to see the minimum qualifications for anyone writing a new FF is having first read Alice's Nightmare In Wonderland So they can see how NOT to write a gamebook / rip off someone elses work?
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Post by sleepyscholar on Dec 30, 2021 12:48:54 GMT
In fact, I would like to see the minimum qualifications for anyone writing a new FF is having first read Alice's Nightmare In Wonderland So they can see how NOT to write a gamebook / rip off someone elses work? Times like this I feel a Harry Hill impersonation coming on...
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Post by dragonwarrior8 on Dec 30, 2021 18:21:34 GMT
I would like to see them actually interact with the fans. So many other gamebook authors have some sort of online presence where they provide updates, respond to questions etc. Has anyone else here tried asking a question at the Official Fighting Fantasy site? Good luck getting a response. I know Ian is on Twitter but does he respond to any questions on there?
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Post by The Count on Dec 30, 2021 23:44:24 GMT
I would like to see them actually interact with the fans. So many other gamebook authors have some sort of online presence where they provide updates, respond to questions etc. Has anyone else here tried asking a question at the Official Fighting Fantasy site? Good luck getting a response. I know Ian is on Twitter but does he respond to any questions on there? Not to any sensible questions. He has responded to things like: "omg i iz playink deftwap wif my dotah huw 2 wyn?" with "have 2 SKILL and 6 STAMINA on me!"
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Post by Wilf on Dec 31, 2021 0:51:35 GMT
Why Crimson Tide and Siege of Sardath over some of the others?
Because they do new or interesting things with the mechanics. Tide for the trick with the codewords, and the final paragraph. Siege for the various ways it handles secret paragraphs or hides information in plain sight. All the books I picked take the FF format and do interesting things with it.
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Post by tyrion on Dec 31, 2021 9:28:19 GMT
Why Crimson Tide and Siege of Sardath over some of the others?
Because they do new or interesting things with the mechanics. Tide for the trick with the codewords, and the final paragraph. Siege for the various ways it handles secret paragraphs or hides information in plain sight. All the books I picked take the FF format and do interesting things with it. I'd actually prefer the opposite from an IL book; cot, dd and tot don't do anything above the standard ff format, they are just well written adventures with interesting encounters. This is what he is good at, and he should stick to it. Just make the book fair, stick to the rules as written, don't dumb down the writing and have good illustrations.
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Post by CharlesX on Dec 31, 2021 9:48:13 GMT
Because they do new or interesting things with the mechanics. Tide for the trick with the codewords, and the final paragraph. Siege for the various ways it handles secret paragraphs or hides information in plain sight. All the books I picked take the FF format and do interesting things with it. I'd actually prefer the opposite from an IL book; cot, dd and tot don't do anything above the standard ff format, they are just well written adventures with interesting encounters. This is what he is good at, and he should stick to it. Just make the book fair, stick to the rules as written, don't dumb down the writing and have good illustrations. True, that being said, TOT has a magic system. Magic can add colour to an FF adventure, the only counter-examples being Legend Of Zagor, which implements it poorly, and Phantoms Of Fear where, although in keeping with your character and so on, it is useless throughout.
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Post by misomiso on Dec 31, 2021 9:59:54 GMT
Because they do new or interesting things with the mechanics. Tide for the trick with the codewords, and the final paragraph. Siege for the various ways it handles secret paragraphs or hides information in plain sight. All the books I picked take the FF format and do interesting things with it. I'd actually prefer the opposite from an IL book; cot, dd and tot don't do anything above the standard ff format, they are just well written adventures with interesting encounters. This is what he is good at, and he should stick to it. Just make the book fair, stick to the rules as written, don't dumb down the writing and have good illustrations. Yes completely agree and this is what I want. For me City of Thieves and DD also worked well because you had a strong sense of place - the location was as much a character as anything else.
I always thought he should do something like a 'Tomb Raider' style one, like the final part of Indianna Jones Last Crusade maybe where your forced to enter as they have captured your sister etc, then he can go slightly Meta.
The narrative of the adventure, both what you encounter and the 'impied narrative' of the other adventurers, also adds a lot to DD. People always remember Throm, and then you try to rescue the Elf Woman and have to fight the Assassin. Really helps add flavour I think.
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Jan 3, 2022 11:10:24 GMT
Because they do new or interesting things with the mechanics. Tide for the trick with the codewords, and the final paragraph. Siege for the various ways it handles secret paragraphs or hides information in plain sight. All the books I picked take the FF format and do interesting things with it. I'd actually prefer the opposite from an IL book; cot, dd and tot don't do anything above the standard ff format, they are just well written adventures with interesting encounters. This is what he is good at, and he should stick to it. Just make the book fair, stick to the rules as written, don't dumb down the writing and have good illustrations. I'm caught between the two here. [while agreeing 100% with Tyrion's last sentence] It would be interesting to see what he could come up with if he did branch out and use different mechanics. A pre-requisite for this would be to have a good read of what others have done with gamebooks, and not just FF. His best ones are where he spins a good yarn, sends us on an epic quest. But in some books I just find the plot [or rather the path to victory] flawed from the start. Why must you kill all the zombies in Blood of the Zombies? Why are you sent out in a car with nowhere near enough fuel, nor initially the means to siphon it, in Freeway Fighter? What is the real logic of seeking out all the assassins in Assassins of Allansia? Surely it makes sense to avoid them if possible and leave them far behind? Collecting a series of crucial items makes sense in Deathtrap Dungeon 1 and 2, but effectively treating those assassins and zombies in the same way as the gold rings from FF21 [ie as objects needing to be collected for the win] just doesn't make any sense.
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Post by philsadler on Jan 3, 2022 12:20:22 GMT
From Ian Livingstone I would like the following:
A ridiculous plot. I want to gain stamina in the first reference without having lost any. I want my character to be described as 'starving' even though he has 10 provisions. I want the first enemy to be skill 10. I want the next enemy to be skill 5. I want decisions such as 'open the door', 'east or west' and the classic 'open the chest'. I want enemies such as Orc, Goblin, Troll and of course the infamous Man. I want ridiculous luck tests that, even if you fail them, only deduct 2 stamina points. I would like silly messages in laughable locations with essential information. I would like vital items just lying about. I would love him to ignore his own rules. I would love him to not understand his own rules. Never play-test his own books. I want to constantly die because I have rolled a certain number. I want his fanboys to defend all of the above. But most of all I want a real slap-in-the-face final boss that you could never defeat even with perfect stats.
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Post by stevendoig on Jan 3, 2022 13:30:14 GMT
Chuckling away here. In which book did you fight 'Man' though, I canny mind
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