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Post by vastariner on Mar 11, 2022 12:25:59 GMT
In the 40th Frenzy, I seem to have been cursed with bad Skill rolls, and the losing basically the first fight I'm in.
Which makes me think that this should actually be a game design. Because you don't waste ages going deep into a book with minimal stats, then being blasted out of the way with e.g. a Black Lion that proves impossible to beat.
But if, after about two paragraphs, you meet a Black Lion, then you rapidly come to the conclusion you need Sk11 in order to get past reasonably easily.
The problem with that is it can lead to an unbalanced book. Big early fight as a tester, then, if you beat a Black Lion, beating goblins or orcs or even trolls is something of a piece of cake.
So, what ways are there of getting around this? There are a couple of ways without magic weapons;
-Demons of the Deep, Cyrano can teach you;
-bizarrely, Skylord has an interesting solution, you upgrade your ship if you beat someone better, presumably reflecting greater experience in combat.
In order to prove the rubric about winning with minimal stats, there should be some method of boosting a low Sk. Weapon and armour that can take you up to Sk10, for instance. Often a Big Boss can be easier than a minion because of a special item. The Black Lion is harder than the Lizard King.
Or...they should really drop the pretence. It is, after all, unrealistic to expect a Sk7 character to be an outright hero. And therefore give you a Sk9 fight at the start as a tester, to get you to roll again.
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Post by CharlesX on Mar 11, 2022 13:43:14 GMT
Slightly cheaply and uncontroversially, I think the difficulty level in FF can be too high. I would say a balance could be struck e.g. Starship Traveller is one of the worst FFs, Spectral Stalkers is one of the best. As you say there are ways of affecting a skill disadvantage such as attack strength bonuses magic etc.
There's always the option of FFs where a higher skill is a disadvantage or even impossible, of which Magehunter is the only full-length one I know of. Magehunter is stronger on description and atmosphere than gameplay, and was arguably after the heyday of FF (30s - 40s), and seems to have emphasis on foreign a colourful concepts more than big, brash, male ones.
Will the stat bonus be different for Magehunter, and say Black Vein Prophecy, and FF magazine games where it's advantageous to fail?
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Post by nathanh on Mar 11, 2022 14:37:41 GMT
I quite like a model where a low-skill character is able to explore relatively deep in the book, but has low chance of actually winning, either because they have to miss an optional-but-necessary path that would kill low-skill characters, or because of difficult final tests.
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Post by CharlesX on Mar 11, 2022 15:05:38 GMT
I quite like a model where a low-skill character is able to explore relatively deep in the book, but has low chance of actually winning, either because they have to miss an optional-but-necessary path that would kill low-skill characters, or because of difficult final tests. Interesting, because one might think 'difficult final tests' would frustrate gamers with low skill who could feel cheated out of a half-expected victory. Taking Midnight Rogue as an example, because it ends with two or three tough fights and a mandatory luck test. Would the fights or the tests particularly resonate with you, and why? My preferred analogy would be a driving test - so, it's more tense if you're near the end, then suddenly fail, instead of realising a few references in you have no chance of success (say, Armies Of Death's 50 50). Which would Devil's Advocate means you can try again from an earlier point, if you take a 'character is cheap' approach. |
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Post by johnbrawn1972 on Mar 11, 2022 17:22:31 GMT
For a long time I have thought the Howl of the Werewolf Skill 8-10 would be more suited to the combat system as I never realised until very late that being disadvantaged by -2 skill means the fight will be invariably very unfair. This could be offset by magic weapons and luck to an extent.
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Mar 11, 2022 22:19:24 GMT
Rather than go into contortions trying to level up characters via Cyrano the Swordfish style methods, or items that only add SKILL if your Initial is below 9, or placing powerful opponents early on to sort the wheat from the chaff you can
a) just have either pre-generated characters (choose from three, say) or
b) make Initial SKILL 6 + D3 [or 7 + D3 if you like]
The book can then be tailored to take this into account and will be all the better for it.
The 6+d6 rule just gives too great a spread. Just abolish it. It shouldn't be set in stone as the way to generate characters.
There's no way I'd read a new book with a SKILL 7 character because it ruins the experience knowing you won't stand a chance.
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Post by terrysalt on Mar 12, 2022 5:31:44 GMT
You could troll the reader a bit. Make them generate stats then have them go through a portal and end up in someone else's body and have to use the stats of the new body. *gives a Masonic handshake*  |
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Mar 12, 2022 9:59:27 GMT
You could troll the reader a bit. I wonder how many readers back in 1995 got annoyed that they'd 'lost' their SKILL 12 STAMINA 24 character and turned into a weak old man or a young nobleman. Make them generate stats then have them go through a portal and end up in someone else's body and have to use the stats of the new body. *gives a Masonic handshake*  That is absolutely one way to do it, but can't really be repeated I'd say, without people saying 'you nicked that character-swap device from Magehunter!' For a long time I have thought the Howl of the Werewolf Skill 8-10 would be more suited to the combat system as I never realised until very late that being disadvantaged by -2 skill means the fight will be invariably very unfair. This could be offset by magic weapons and luck to an extent. Being 2 SKILL points [or Attack Strength points] down in a fight is often catastrophic. If you don't outright lose, you'll likely have to use a lot of provisions or healing.. and will have to hope that the writer has taken all this into account. It's not just combat, it's Test your skill too. SKILL 12 is instant success, and 11 is what... a 1 in 36 chance of failing? Skills of 8, 9 or even 10 add a bit of drama to the books because you're not guaranteed passing the skill tests. |
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Post by terrysalt on Mar 12, 2022 10:37:31 GMT
With how central skill is to the entire gameplay of the series, and how massive the impact of a single point of skill is, I would actually say there shouldn't be any variance. I'd be fine with preset characters that you choose from (or even just a single character) that they can balance the game around.
With a less lopsided game structure, you could do the thing a lot of CRPGs do. Have a baseline that your stats start at then give you a set number of points to allocate to whichever stats you want.
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Mar 12, 2022 12:42:42 GMT
With how central skill is to the entire gameplay of the series, It is very central, isn't it? Too much so, I'd say. One way to get around this when it comes to tests of agility, don't let it be a simple 2d6 vs SKILL score. This minimises the impact of high or low SKILL scores. An example might be attempting to scale a wall and gain access to a window. Roll two dice and add them together Apply the following modifiers +3 if you own a rope and grapple, +1 if your skill score is 9 or higher, -1 if your stamina score is less than 10 -1 if you are Stubble the dwarf +2 if you spend a point of LUCK before rolling the dice And then have success be on an 8 or more [difficulty levels varying according to difficulty of task] That sort of thing. I don't like tonnes of stats and I'm not a big fan of overcomplicating things in these books (and maybe this would?), so I'm thinking of ways to get around it. |
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Post by CharlesX on Mar 12, 2022 14:38:16 GMT
With how central skill is to the entire gameplay of the series, It is very central, isn't it? Too much so, I'd say. One way to get around this when it comes to tests of agility, don't let it be a simple 2d6 vs SKILL score. This minimises the impact of high or low SKILL scores. An example might be attempting to scale a wall and gain access to a window. Roll two dice and add them together Apply the following modifiers +3 if you own a rope and grapple, +1 if your skill score is 9 or higher, -1 if your stamina score is less than 10 -1 if you are Stubble the dwarf +2 if you spend a point of LUCK before rolling the dice And then have success be on an 8 or more [difficulty levels varying according to difficulty of task] That sort of thing. I don't like tonnes of stats and I'm not a big fan of overcomplicating things in these books (and maybe this would?), so I'm thinking of ways to get around it. I personally prefer the Rings of Kether\Gamebook Adventures style where you roll under your skill, better in realism, gameplay and drama. For example, take a harder FF like Trial Of Champions, where most of the book is deeply tough. If you know in advance a Skill 12 character is going to pass every Skill test 100%, that really takes away from the tension. |
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,453
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Mar 12, 2022 21:03:08 GMT
The simplest way to handle it is to make tough fights avoidable. That way having a high Skill is a bit of insurance if you choose badly rather than mandatory to win.
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Post by terrysalt on Mar 12, 2022 21:05:58 GMT
You have to be careful with that method or else you end up with Starship Traveller.
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Post by The Count on Mar 13, 2022 13:49:15 GMT
It is very central, isn't it? Too much so, I'd say. One way to get around this when it comes to tests of agility, don't let it be a simple 2d6 vs SKILL score. This minimises the impact of high or low SKILL scores. An example might be attempting to scale a wall and gain access to a window. Roll two dice and add them together Apply the following modifiers +3 if you own a rope and grapple, +1 if your skill score is 9 or higher, -1 if your stamina score is less than 10 -1 if you are Stubble the dwarf +2 if you spend a point of LUCK before rolling the dice And then have success be on an 8 or more [difficulty levels varying according to difficulty of task] That sort of thing. I don't like tonnes of stats and I'm not a big fan of overcomplicating things in these books (and maybe this would?), so I'm thinking of ways to get around it. I personally prefer the Rings of Kether\Gamebook Adventures style where you roll under your skill, better in realism, gameplay and drama. For example, take a harder FF like Trial Of Champions, where most of the book is deeply tough. If you know in advance a Skill 12 character is going to pass every Skill test 100%, that really takes away from the tension. Yet, in Trial, you need to fail a Skill test around 2/3 of the way through, passing it leads to an arbitrary roll to avoid an instant death - though at a 1 in 6 chance it is more forgiving that similar examples in Greens early efforts... |
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Post by CharlesX on Mar 13, 2022 14:36:22 GMT
I personally prefer the Rings of Kether\Gamebook Adventures style where you roll under your skill, better in realism, gameplay and drama. For example, take a harder FF like Trial Of Champions, where most of the book is deeply tough. If you know in advance a Skill 12 character is going to pass every Skill test 100%, that really takes away from the tension. Yet, in Trial, you need to fail a Skill test around 2/3 of the way through, passing it leads to an arbitrary roll to avoid an instant death - though at a 1 in 6 chance it is more forgiving that similar examples in Greens early efforts...L I think you might be mixing up.. Trial has a Skill test in the training section where you have to pass, or you have a 5 in 6 chance of death (i.e. you're dead unless you're heavily lucky). The test you have to fail (2\3 in) is with the tongue-thing, and only has a 1 in 3 chance of happening. |
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Post by The Count on Mar 13, 2022 16:29:29 GMT
Yet, in Trial, you need to fail a Skill test around 2/3 of the way through, passing it leads to an arbitrary roll to avoid an instant death - though at a 1 in 6 chance it is more forgiving that similar examples in Greens early efforts...L I think you might be mixing up.. Trial has a Skill test in the training section where you have to pass, or you have a 5 in 6 chance of death (i.e. you're dead unless you're heavily lucky). The test you have to fail (2\3 in) is with the tongue-thing, and only has a 1 in 3 chance of happening. It's after the Tongue when you encounter the Siren - passing the Skill test leads to an instant death |
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Post by CharlesX on Mar 13, 2022 16:42:25 GMT
I think you might be mixing up.. Trial has a Skill test in the training section where you have to pass, or you have a 5 in 6 chance of death (i.e. you're dead unless you're heavily lucky). The test you have to fail (2\3 in) is with the tongue-thing, and only has a 1 in 3 chance of happening. It's after the Tongue when you encounter the Siren - passing the Skill test leads to an instant death I don't recall even encountering a Siren in TOC, and there defs isn't one on the true path, after the Tongue or otherwise. It's been a fairly long time since I played Trial, but if there is an off-the-beaten-track path where you encounter a Siren, and the best\only way to escape it is to roll above your Skill, that would make Trial up there with Crypt, even Spellbreaker, in difficulty terms if you took that path, and so I'd advise very much not to! |
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,453
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Mar 13, 2022 18:33:21 GMT
I don't recall even encountering a Siren in TOC, and there defs isn't one on the true path, after the Tongue or otherwise. There is indeed a Siren straight after the Tongue. You have to roll a die. If you roll 3-6, you're fine. If you roll 1 or 2, you have to Test your Skill. If you succeed, she kills you. If you fail, you escape. |
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Post by CharlesX on Mar 13, 2022 18:56:08 GMT
I don't recall even encountering a Siren in TOC, and there defs isn't one on the true path, after the Tongue or otherwise. There is indeed a Siren straight after the Tongue. You have to roll a die. If you roll 3-6, you're fine. If you roll 1 or 2, you have to Test your Skill. If you succeed, she kills you. If you fail, you escape. Right, well with two witnesses I'll take your words for it as I don't have Trial with me anymore (and think it's unlikely an extra inclusion was made from the Puffin edition I owned). However, I don't remember there being one on the true path, more to the point Champskees solution doesn't mention one, so I don't know if that means he just didn't bother listing it, or if that affects the given difficulty level. |
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,453
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Mar 13, 2022 19:04:13 GMT
more to the point Champskees solution doesn't mention one, so I don't know if that means he just didn't bother listing it, or if that affects the given difficulty level. He does cover it, he just doesn't mention why you have to roll the dice: |
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Post by CharlesX on Mar 13, 2022 19:31:40 GMT
more to the point Champskees solution doesn't mention one, so I don't know if that means he just didn't bother listing it, or if that affects the given difficulty level. He does cover it, he just doesn't mention why you have to roll the dice: Jus me getting confused then. I remembered you were supposed to roll 3+, and IIRC if you didn't, you had to test your Skill in the hope the Tongue doesn't reckon you're fit prey, I just don't recall where the Siren fits in the mix. |
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Post by CharlesX on Mar 26, 2022 12:31:01 GMT
As we've said a lot depends your initial skill roll, which is partly why I sometimes prefer gamebooks which have no skill system such as Golden Dragon, or a pool-based system such as Vulcanverse or Real Life gamebooks. Lone Wolf is every bit as bad as FF in the skill stakes, with its tough fights you are often effectively finished without a Combat Skill that is average or better than average.
Perhaps the solution is to revamp this very old system (that was what they chose to do with Advanced FF), although not in the way of IL's Blood Of The Zombies. Don't know how though. Instead of picking a character which will inevitably be stronger or weaker, you could roll a die to determine your character? You could hire adventurers, like in computer games? You could even play an untrained peasant, who starts out with minimum Skill and whatever Stamina and Luck.
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Post by misomiso on Mar 26, 2022 12:51:38 GMT
First off, although it's very random and unfair the skill roll mechanic is probably one the main reasons Fighting Fantasy was so popular as a series.
It gives us an incredibly simplified combat experience, allows for wildly different abilities of characters, and gives replay value as you can see how low a skill character you can complete a book with.
Having said all that, it is definately a very flawed mechanic. I did some math on the stats and even a '1' point advantage in skill gives you a 67% chance to win any given roll, and a 2 point advantage gives you an 80% chance.
As to how this is dealt with, it really comes down to how the author can balance each individual book. If they set themselves up so that a skill 10 character is needed to finish then all the combats need to balanced round the goal. I personally quite like the idea of a 'guardian' fight early on, maybe 25% of the way in, that is quite tough that can 'weed out' very weak characters.
The Howl of the werewolf solution of having skill as 7+1d3 is also very good, as it narrows the range of starting options, but you lose the thrill of intense randomness when creating your character.
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Mar 26, 2022 13:31:46 GMT
First off, although it's very random and unfair the skill roll mechanic is probably one the main reasons Fighting Fantasy was so popular as a series. Character generation in general, yes, I would agree with you. Specifically the SKILL generation roll? I would say no. It gives us an incredibly simplified combat experience, allows for wildly different abilities of characters, and gives replay value as you can see how low a skill character you can complete a book with. Having said all that, it is definitely a very flawed mechanic. I did some math on the stats and even a '1' point advantage in skill gives you a 67% chance to win any given roll, and a 2 point advantage gives you an 80% chance. It is a flawed mechanic - it just straight up encourages cheating. Imagine a computer game that gives you a more or less zero chance of winning as a result of a random number generated before the game starts. You would be very tempted to 'hack' the game, or just 'kill' the character and wait for the next roll to come along giving you a fighting chance. The Howl of the werewolf solution of having skill as 7+1d3 is also very good, as it narrows the range of starting options, but you lose the thrill of intense randomness when creating your character. I don't want an intensely-random character. And SKILL 12 can be just as boring as SKILL 7 or 8, to be honest. Either now or in the heyday of FF, I doubt most people really sat down to a brand new book and accepted those SKILL 7 characters which limped along for a few dozen paragraphs before inevitably being put out of their misery by something 2 SKILL points higher. I know I didn't back in the day and still don't now. |
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Post by CharlesX on Mar 26, 2022 13:52:58 GMT
Well, I have many memories of wanting to play an otherwise enjoyable gamebook such as Island of the Lizard King, Vault of The Vampire or Seas of Blood, and just rejecting eight out of ten of the Avatars I'd create because they weren't material (short hint to gamebook designers: this isn't fun).
One solution is to create 'hard road' such as those present in Sword of the Samurai, Deathmoor, and Howl of the Werewolf (and maybe Scorpion Swamp).
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Post by tyrion on Mar 26, 2022 18:31:13 GMT
Maybe a points buy system, either fixed like in krampus, or random. Say roll 5d6, choose 4 results and distribute between the three stats? Add another die or two if there is another stat.
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Post by dragonwarrior8 on Mar 26, 2022 22:36:59 GMT
Maybe a points buy system, either fixed like in krampus, or random. Say roll 5d6, choose 4 results and distribute between the three stats? Add another die or two if there is another stat. I'd love to see something like this. The initial Skill roll was probably the one big thing I felt Fighting Fantasy got wrong, and I felt that way playing it back in the 80's as well. The fact that this is still being used 40 years later boggles my mind. As touched upon in one of the other threads, they don't really seem to be trying to improve the product do they? |
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Post by vastariner on Mar 27, 2022 8:41:22 GMT
or just 'kill' the character and wait for the next roll to come along giving you a fighting chance. Which is why a difficult early fight is actually a benefit. If your first opponent is (say) Sk10 St12, then a weak character will be killed off, and you can re-roll for something better. No time wasting. |
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Mar 27, 2022 10:08:47 GMT
or just 'kill' the character and wait for the next roll to come along giving you a fighting chance. Which is why a difficult early fight is actually a benefit. If your first opponent is (say) Sk10 St12, then a weak character will be killed off, and you can re-roll for something better. No time wasting. Putting a wyvern or something like it early on in the book would be one way of sifting out weaker ( honest) players, I suppose. I just think it would be another artificial method of coping with a sub-standard character generation system. To use a metaphor, I see it as the root of the problem and i think it best to attack the root rather than try to cope with other parts of the plant. With this method you die after reading 5 to 15-odd paragraphs rather than 30 or more? Because of a dice roll made before you even get to the Introduction or para 1? I still call that a waste of time. I think it may be because when I play these books (even moreso Fabled Lands and Steam Highwayman) I do try to invest maximum effort into the PC and don't see it, say, as an utterly expendable sprite in some 1980's 'platform' computer game or a pacman which I expect to die and resurrect hundreds of times before winning through. I think I've said before, you only read a book for the first time once, and that this first reading experience could and should be the most impactful. Example - Black Vein Prophecy. The start. What a start to a book. Even with that beginning to a book, how many reads before the impact and sense of urgency wears off? There's a 'sweet spot' of difficulty level for a book, but I find it hard to quantify exactly what it is. The books are hard enough in terms of choices you have to make without being doomed from the start by a single dice roll. |
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Post by CharlesX on Mar 27, 2022 12:01:08 GMT
I prefer it when an FF doesn't mix very low Skill opponents with very tough opponents, exactly the way Livingstone doesn't in most of his books but especially in his Eye Of The Dragon.
I would also draw a distinction between FF which are 'quite tough but ultimately enjoyable' (Seas Of Blood, Bloodbones) and FF which are 'hard to the point they aren't fun' (Spellbreaker, Sky Lord, Masks of Mayhem). With the latter the authors incorporate unusual, complicated rules, excessive do-or-die\50-50 rolls, and a very big number of tough combats that are totally unavoidable.
That is aside from the linearity or otherwise of the FF - sometimes the sheer boredom of playing an FF can add to its difficulty, hard or not.
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