Can Sci-fi FFs work debate thread

[CharlesX]

After Sky Lord, there weren't anymore properly sci-fi FF (Spectral Stalkers is debatable, but I think that was more supernatural, like House Of Hell, than space sci-fi). Sci-fi FF has been criticised as underwhelming, boring, and commercially less successful FF. Yet some like the sci-fi, even consider them the best FF, and the series would surely be poorer without them.
   So, is sci-fi FF dead? Is it too much to ask an already struggling franchise in the digital age to try something different? I don't know if Blood Of The Zombies 'counts' but if so it surely isn't much of a plus. Is there just something about the FF format that makes SF ones harder - the pacing, the notekeeping, the fixed length - or conversely, will there be more, sometimes successful sci-fi FF if the series continues for many more years * fingers crossed *?
   I'm aware there are a number of SF gamebook apps, as well as even more brave gamebooks such as Can You Brexit?, but such things remain deeply niche. For some reason Tin Man made an App of Starship Traveller, which is like choosing Eye Of The Dragon if you had one choice for an Ian Livingstone FF.
   FWIW there a few amateur sci-fi FFs online, often worthy ones.

[peasantscribbler]

I don't see why a new sci-fi FF couldn't work. With a few tweaks, Crystal of Storms could have been sci-fi. To me, the important thing is to get the mechanics and playability right. (Pratchett didn't quite succeed with this, though she did a lot better than Higson.) In this regard, the overall record of sci-fi FFs isn't that bad. Other than Blood of the Zombies, I think they're all playable. I could do without the instant-death maze in Starship Traveller, the too numerous instant deaths in Rebel Planet, and the too random instant deaths in Star Strider, but I don't mind playing any of them (and I quite like Rebel Planet). I'm not a fan of all the puzzles in Sky Lord (and so I find it a bit tedious) but I'm not really put off by its overly difficult combats.

[tyrion]

Well heart of ice is sci-fi and I don't think anyone disputes how good that is.

The winner of the lindenbaum prize this year was sci-fi.

So there is definitely potential.

[sylas]

The strength of a gamebook adventure is, unsurprisingly, mainly in the story and the gameplay. As long as at least these two factors are implemented well, I can't see why any genre can't succeed unless it is too offensive or too controversial.

[terrysalt]

There's nothing inherently bad about sci-fi. it's just a different genre from what people expected given the name of the series. And mismatched expectations always lead to disappointment.

[sleepyscholar]

May 12, 2022 22:07:15 GMT terrysalt said:

There's nothing inherently bad about sci-fi. it's just a different genre from what people expected given the name of the series. And mismatched expectations always lead to disappointment.

I suspect that this (along with the questionable quality of the actual attempts) is the key point. In a series called Fighting Fantasy, SF is already at a disadvantage. Heart of Ice was in a series called Virtual Reality, which already set up an expectation that SF could be on the table.

In practice, for SF to work in FF, someone would have to feel that it was worth doing. If you have stunt authors being chosen for their fame value, they are less likely to think about what might make it work. And those who do think a bit about their work are likely to look at the precedent and wonder whether they want to make the effort.

[misomiso]

There's no reason at all the FF Sci-fi shouldn't work. As other's have said if you have a good scenario, good combat and a good story the genre doesn't really matter.

I think it has one disadvantage in that FF had Titan as it's main setting which helped a lot in building a shared world, where as all the Sci-FI titles were stand alones.

FF would have benefited from a kind of '40k titan' setting where the stories could take place.

[kieran]

May 13, 2022 7:06:28 GMT misomiso said:

FF would have benefited from a kind of '40k titan' setting where the stories could take place.

Maybe but this would have also limited the authors somewhat. I quite like that all the sci-fi books are quite different from one another.

[a moderator]

May 13, 2022 9:49:06 GMT kieran said:

May 13, 2022 7:06:28 GMT misomiso said:

FF would have benefited from a kind of '40k titan' setting where the stories could take place.

Maybe but this would have also limited the authors somewhat. I quite like that all the sci-fi books are quite different from one another.

Space is big. A more coherently defined SF universe for FF shouldn't prove all that restrictive - and if an author has an SF gamebook concept that cannot easily be made to fit in with the other books, Talisman of Death shows that using an established setting is not mandatory even when writing in the appropriate genre.

I still think it's a pity that you haven't made any more use of the backdrop you created for Prey of the Hunter.

[kieran]

May 13, 2022 12:10:19 GMT a moderator said:

Space is big. A more coherently defined SF universe for FF shouldn't prove all that restrictive

True.

and if an author has an SF gamebook concept that cannot easily be made to fit in with the other books, Talisman of Death shows that using an established setting is not mandatory even when writing in the appropriate genre.

I feel Talisman of Death only got away with that because it was an early book published when Titan hadn't really been properly defined yet. And unlike other early books that weren't meant to be based on Titan (like Seas of Blood), it couldn't easily be retroactively inserted. The only other non-Titan high fantasy book was Legend of Zagor and even that had pretty strong links to Titan.

I still think it's a pity that you haven't made any more use of the backdrop you created for Prey of the Hunter.

Well, I wouldn't rule it out, I still have a few ideas in mind for it. I'd probably ret-con some of the more cringy stuff though.

[misomiso]

I feel readers / consumers of media appreciate world building quite a lot; it helps with the escapism if there are at least some consitencies and world outlines.

But they didn't go that way so it's a bit academic.

[CharlesX]

May 13, 2022 14:57:06 GMT misomiso said:

I feel readers / consumers of media appreciate world building quite a lot; it helps with the escapism if there are at least some consitencies and world outlines.

But they didn't go that way so it's a bit academic.

I'm not sure I'm getting you or something with your last sentence. Part of the purpose of this thread is whether there can be more SFs in future FFs, because I'm hoping the J & L September books will be neither the last in the series nor anywhere close to that. Jackson did Appointment with F.E.A.R., which has SF elements and was OK, Starship Traveller had a good enough concept but wanting execution. Very recently Livingstone's Blood Of The Zombies was an SF FF gamebook albeit possibly the worst in the series. Will Jackson's new Sorcery! take the PC into the future world of Titan?
 The fact SF FF has so far been commercially less successful than sword & sorcery based FF does make an SF FF series or miniseries hard to imagine. And as well, the market is not the same from the heyday, so it's pretty unlikely (but not impossible) SJ or IL will write a new SF FF. And if they would be as bad as Blood Of The Zombies, that's no bad thing.

[a moderator]

I wouldn't call Blood SF. It, like most modern zombie fiction, is horror first and foremost, with a veneer of pseudo-science.

Have I missed some announcement about Secrets of Salamonis being connected with the Sorcery! series? It isn't even set on the same continent.

[CharlesX]

May 13, 2022 16:20:21 GMT a moderator said:

I wouldn't call Blood SF. It, like most modern zombie fiction, is horror first and foremost, with a veneer of pseudo-science.

Have I missed some announcement about Secrets of Salamonis being connected with the Sorcery! series? It isn't even set on the same continent.

No, there was no such announcement, I'm just basing my guesswork instead on SJ's well-known remarks about possibly expanding the Sorcery! universe.

[misomiso]

charles X apologies I had lost the gist of the thread and was just musing!

What i meant was that back in that day IF there had been a 'Galaxy Titan', ie a FF shared sci-fi world, then I think the sci-fi books may have been more successful as having a shared world would appeal more to the consumers. However I could be completely wrong here!

Fantasy as a genre seems to have something that makes it very appropriate for gamebooks, however I'm not sure what that is. Maybe a more active protaganist with a sword and shield who fights orks is more appealing than captain kirk, or maybe the basic story of 'go into a dungeon and kill the wizard' lends itself more to a gamebook format. I'm not sure, but almost all the big gamebook hits have been Fantasy, and the notable exception of 'Heart of Ice' I would classify more as post apocalyptic.

I too wish than the FF publisher would publish more books, but there just doesn't seem to be a market for them anymore. Rhianna Pratchett's book was obviously them experimenting a bit. Perhaps what they need to do is pair a 'Name' author with a gamebook veteran so they can get the best of both worlds.

[CharlesX]

May 13, 2022 17:58:16 GMT misomiso said:

charles X apologies I had lost the gist of the thread and was just musing!

What i meant was that back in that day IF there had been a 'Galaxy Titan', ie a FF shared sci-fi world, then I think the sci-fi books may have been more successful as having a shared world would appeal more to the consumers. However I could be completely wrong here!

Fantasy as a genre seems to have something that makes it very appropriate for gamebooks, however I'm not sure what that is. Maybe a more active protaganist with a sword and shield who fights orks is more appealing than captain kirk, or maybe the basic story of 'go into a dungeon and kill the wizard' lends itself more to a gamebook format. I'm not sure, but almost all the big gamebook hits have been Fantasy, and the notable exception of 'Heart of Ice' I would classify more as post apocalyptic.

I too wish than the FF publisher would publish more books, but there just doesn't seem to be a market for them anymore. Rhianna Pratchett's book was obviously them experimenting a bit. Perhaps what they need to do is pair a 'Name' author with a gamebook veteran so they can get the best of both worlds.

You're right in that most gamebooks have chosen D & D over SF, and the gamebooks that haven't have sometimes been good, but have been variable, below-average, as well. CYOA and EQ did a lot of SF, but they were specifically aimed at young people.
   What is it about SF gaming that means it can be less appealing? My theory is it stems from lack of conflict, exemplified by Star Trek creator Gene Roddenberry's utopian humanist vision. So, Gamma World and Paranoia and Star Wars and Traveller have more of a following in the way the Star Trek RPG maybe doesn't. Gamma World is fantasy with magic swapped for machines and mutants.

[bloodbeasthandler]

May 13, 2022 17:58:16 GMT misomiso said:

charles X apologies I had lost the gist of the thread and was just musing!

What i meant was that back in that day IF there had been a 'Galaxy Titan', ie a FF shared sci-fi world, then I think the sci-fi books may have been more successful as having a shared world would appeal more to the consumers. However I could be completely wrong here!

Difficult to say. I can think of at least one gamebook sci-fi series - Falcon - and these books came out at the very peak of the gamebook craze in the mid 80s. They took place in a consistent universe and setting. Did they sell well? 
Having said that I wasn't even aware they existed at the time so maybe their marketing was poor? 
If they had been badged FF, maybe they would have been more known about. 
Did others here collect the books at the time? What do you think?

May 13, 2022 17:58:16 GMT misomiso said:

 I'm not sure, but almost all the big gamebook hits have been Fantasy, and the notable exception of 'Heart of Ice' I would classify more as post apocalyptic.

We don't know what the sales were for individual gamebooks (neither sci-fi nor fantasy ones) to be able to ascertain if they were commercial successes or not. Purely from my own anecdotal evidence of the people in my school, the science fiction FF were at least as popular as the others. 

May 13, 2022 17:58:16 GMT misomiso said:

I too wish than the FF publisher would publish more books, but there just doesn't seem to be a market for them anymore.

That's the inescapable conclusion, isn't it? 
If there was a mass market, if people were buying them in anything near the numbers from the 80s and 90s it would be a different story. 
This applies to all the other brands of interactive fiction too. 
All of us on here are gamebook fans and yet as that recent poll showed, many of us haven't or don't necessarily read or buy other gamebooks. 
That would be an interesting poll - a list of all the current gamebook series with a vote as to whether you read/buy them or not. Fabled Lands, Steam Highwayman, Lone Wolf, ACE, Click Your Poison etc. 

May 13, 2022 17:58:16 GMT misomiso said:

Perhaps what they need to do is pair a 'Name' author with a gamebook veteran so they can get the best of both worlds.

I'd have loved to have seen a combination of Jamie Thomson and Iain M Banks writing something set in Banks' Culture universe.
Or a Peter F Hamilton gamebook because he thrives on world-building.

[vastariner]

One thing about a sci fi series is that there are so many worlds to build you lose the world builder aspect. Titan is self-contained in a way the universe is not. The Riddling Reaver’s home is incongruous because it has the Titan context. In a universal environment that would not apply. In a universe of infinite possibilities nothing can be out of place; nothing can be expected. Were into defend Skylord it would be on that basis. That L’Bastin could not live long enough to understand his entire set of possibilities so has to take a punt when it went beyond his comfort zone.

Falcon was a brilliant series, difficult but logically so. And Orb makes a cameo appearance.

[misomiso]

@vestariner yes but you can have strong consistency even in a sci-fi universe. Look at 40k, Star Trek, or Star Wars. All of these universes have strong themes and ideas that people recognise. FF could have done the same.

In terms of publishing, I think part of the problem is that a huge audience for Gamebooks back in the day was kids, and nowadays kids just aren't interested as much. We have the general decline in reading, added to the fact that the kids who WOULD have been into FF now have so many more options in video games.

I always thought Neil Gaiman paired with a gamebook author could produce a title we would want to see, or Charlie Brooker. Thought it was a real shame he didn't do a book with FF to conjunction with 'Bandersnatch' as that was a great marketing opportunity.

[bloodbeasthandler]

May 14, 2022 6:37:59 GMT misomiso said:

 yes but you can have strong consistency even in a sci-fi universe. Look at 40k, Star Trek, or Star Wars. All of these universes have strong themes and ideas that people recognise. FF could have done the same.

A writer could have developed a setting, like what happened with Ian Livingstone's part of Allansia, or Kallamehr, or Stephen Hand's Old World adventures but in a sci-fi setting. All FF's sci-fi were one offs. There was no more development of Andrew Chapman's detective in the Aleph-Cygni system, nor did US Steve Jackson write any more Battletech-style FF after Robot Commando, no aftermath with Rebel Planet, which I think is a pity.  

May 14, 2022 6:37:59 GMT misomiso said:

In terms of publishing, I think part of the problem is that a huge audience for Gamebooks back in the day was kids, and nowadays kids just aren't interested as much. We have the general decline in reading, added to the fact that the kids who WOULD have been into FF now have so many more options in video games.

No doubt this is true. 
I would add to this that the children who turned into adults left behind the idea of gamebooks and choosing paths in books, as well, whilst at the same time going on to enjoy RPG style computer games. So there is a desire to be in control of and interact with your entertainment... entertainment based on science fiction and fantasy (Halo, Skyrim etc) ... just not in book form.  And where you have to generate the random numbers with dice, write things down and do all the heavy-lifting that is now done by the machine. 

May 14, 2022 6:37:59 GMT misomiso said:

I always thought Neil Gaiman paired with a gamebook author could produce a title we would want to see, or Charlie Brooker. Thought it was a real shame he didn't do a book with FF to conjunction with 'Bandersnatch' as that was a great marketing opportunity.

Good call with Neil Gaiman.

I'm certain we will not get a decent sci-fi book in FF whist the series aims at modern-day 9 to 12 year olds. That we can be sure of. 

[misomiso]

You are correct on the book form, however books still hold a kind of special mystical place in people's hearts, even the techno generation.

I think had 'Bandersnatch' had a book released in tandem then it would have sold like hotcakes, and similarly if Neil Gaiman wrote a book, or JK Rowling, then it would do very well.

Part of the problem though is that the skill of WRITING a gamebook is quite different to other forms of literature and even game design, and even designgin a game BOOK is very different to video game design.

Even some of the big hits of the genre have issues I think.

[misomiso]

I would say that I think a gamebook marketed to children could work, but they'd really have to rethink how they went about it. The Original first ten to fifteen FF books had a much terser prose, and in some ways the game design was both simpler and harder than modern books; very often they were key hunts that seemed to hit the difficulty level perfectly.

The best best would eb recreate something like that I feel.

[bloodbeasthandler]

Oh, I don't know misomiso.

If children aren't interested in the books, what is the point of writing them for them?

Speaking for myself, yes I do enjoy the first gamebooks, but better are ones like Slaves of the Abyss, Moonrunner, Creature of Havoc, Portal of Evil, Howl of the Werewolf and many others, which are not really like the books you described. And I don't necessarily want key hunts, I want engaging stories with characters that have realistic motivations, the exploration of interesting themes. All with fair and balanced gameplay.

And to return to the sci-fi theme of the thread, I'd want future books more like Black Mirror episodes, the themes of which are not suitable for really young children.

[nathanh]

I suspect there are a bunch of things at work that act against SF FF.

• Most of the series is fantasy, so sci-fi just always feels a bit "off" from the start. This doesn't just apply to Sci-Fi: I've seen someone criticise Moonrunner for similar, which I find sad but understandable.
• The gamebook formula and FF in particular seems well-suited to the solo adventurer delving into dangerous forgotten areas. You can do this in Sci-fi, but I don't think that many of the FFs did. If we think about Heart of Ice, the post-apocalyptic setting seems sufficiently similar.
• Titan was a shared world for the FF titles and it was also a generic fantasy world in the main. This automatically gave the fantasy books a sense of setting and theme without having to do any work. The Sci-fi books didn't have this, and I don't think many of the authors put enough effort into it, leaving their books quite lolrandom. I don't think it's a surprise that Rebel Planet is relatively well thought of, since the author put enough effort into these areas
• Unfortunately, I think most of the FF Sci-fi books were also objectively not particularly good gamebooks and stories.

[CharlesX]

May 14, 2022 9:57:01 GMT misomiso said:

I would say that I think a gamebook marketed to children could work, but they'd really have to rethink how they went about it. The Original first ten to fifteen FF books had a much terser prose, and in some ways the game design was both simpler and harder than modern books; very often they were key hunts that seemed to hit the difficulty level perfectly.

The best best would eb recreate something like that I feel.

This will not endear me to the hearts of some fellow FF fans but I did not always think the world of many of the early FFs, and judging by the many digs at Livingstone here I am not alone in that regard. Livingstone in particular had (has, unfortunately) excessive difficulty, linearity and bland, wanting description, Jackson, while often creative, could be predictable and dark imho. The better sci-fi FF, like the series, was imo more at the middle, such as Robot Commando and Rebel Planet.
   Rings Of Kether for example, though not the worst SF FF, had shorter writing, a good difficulty level, a skilful plot, and intelligent game mechanics, but was forgettable and underwhelming because of its lack of ambition and mediocre world-building.

[vastariner]

May 14, 2022 6:37:59 GMT misomiso said:

@vestariner yes but you can have strong consistency even in a sci-fi universe. Look at 40k, Star Trek, or Star Wars. All of these universes have strong themes and ideas that people recognise. FF could have done the same.

You can by framing them within something that links - in particular - time.  Star Trek is within the human lifetimes of the crew.  FF's sci-fi were all over the place time-wise.  Freeway Fighter was very near future, Star Strider and Rebel Planet not that far ahead; Rings of Kether was surely a thousand years hence, Starship Traveller maybe similar,  Space Assassin much further on, and Skylord could have been billions of years in the future.  You've got the difference between interstellar travel being a new thing and covering entire galaxies being a cinch.

[misomiso]

Yes - I can't remmeber them but it sounds like somewhere between Rebel Planet and Rings of Kether would have been ideal, althought honestly setting it in another Galaxy, maybe one far far away, would have been a better idea...

(Ie a setting not linked to Earth!)

[dragonwarrior8]

I think they CAN work for sure. I enjoyed Rebel Planet (even though the back half started to drop off considerably) and a couple of the others well enough. As someone else probably pointed out though, the things that come to mind when I hear "Skill, Stamina, and Luck" are wizards, dragons, orcs, dwarves etc. Maybe putting the Sci-Fi's in their own series might have been the way to go. 

[CharlesX]

Rebel Planet's introduction reads as well as any other published SF short story, Starship Traveller (counter-point) doesn't even have an introduction.
    Being realistic I have to say computer games may have supplanted gamebooks, and greatly in some areas. A sci-fi RPG solo game can be Elite, Star Trek or Star Wars, just like the entire Western gaming scenario has been dealt with in Red Dead Redemption games.
   With this in mind I think an SF FF would have to be stellar (pun intended) quality in order even to be published, and I just can't imagine that, although sadly I can imagine publishers limping along with a POC SF FF gamebook by Ian or Steve with their name as it's author.

[misomiso]

Yes - I think also the Computer game version of the Choose your own adventures have a lot of advantages, as you can reference earlier choices in the text. there is a video on youtube somewhere that shows how Inkle do it, and I think the software is free on their site.

As said before I think CYOA adventures CAN work and sell well, but you need to offer the reader something different. For example the early FF were VERY edgy for the time in their Art, where as now they seem a lot more conservative.