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Post by sleepyscholar on May 18, 2022 9:45:33 GMT
I've just remembered that when Steve Jackson's F.I.S.T was doing well, and he had invited Livingstone to 'write' one, when I went round to his house the game I actually pitched was Star Trek. I thought the 'audio gamebook' approach would work really well for a starship captain on the bridge giving orders.
Needless to say, it was dismissed out of hand (Star Trek licenses don't come cheap), and we went ahead instead with the execrable wizard's duel, which was rapidly put out of its misery when the moral panic put paid to F.I.S.T.
I still think, though, that the actual familiarity of the Star Trek setting would go a long way to compensate for the disadvantages of SF. And coincidentally, a decade after that I was hired to voice the Klingons for a Star Trek-themed pachinko game here in Japan (probably the most fun voice-over job I've ever had).
Throughout this thread, Heart of Ice has been held up as an example of how SF can hold its own against fantasy. But I've just remembered that the 'Heart of Ice' was originally the 'Heart of Durritlamish', and the gamebook was based on an epic Tekumel adventure in the lost city of Du'un (I was fortunate enough to play in one iteration of this). Tekumel is sort of SF, but I think most people would view it first and foremost as fantasy.
One of the many iterations of Tekumel as a rolegame had the wizard wheeze of using a gamebook format for character creation. Potentially brilliant, but you'd need to have dozens of gamebooks to really make it capable of furnishing entire player groups with distinct characters.
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Post by slloyd14 on Jul 10, 2022 11:23:03 GMT
I think the system is slightly set against sci fi to begin with. Firstly, it's called Fighting Fantasy, so sci fi might not come to mind.
Secondly, every sci fi books need special rules, usually to cover vehicles or shooting. This isn't inherently bad and fantasy books also have special rules. However, the rules are more elaborate and so there is more chance to have broken unfair rules. However, this does not have to be the case.
Thirdly, linked to the above, shooting and vehicle combats are usually more deadly, giving more chance of instant deaths. You could have a skill 12 character but a piece of junk space ship that gets you killed. Once again, this is a rules thing rather than a sci fi thing.
Fourth, to me, luck is not a very sci-fi stat and I think that some sci-fi books don't really know what to do with it.
Fifth, some sci fi books could just be fantasy dungeon crawls with the names changed, so that could be considered a let down.
The main ways to remedy these things are 1) PLAYTEST and 2) come up with a reason why it is sci-fi and not just fantasy with tech instead of magic.
Maybe use some ideas from Stellar Adventures or a new sci fi setting not covered by FF yet (Dune, Foundation?)
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Post by CharlesX on Jul 10, 2022 12:21:26 GMT
I think the system is slightly set against sci fi to begin with. Firstly, it's called Fighting Fantasy, so sci fi might not come to mind. Secondly, every sci fi books need special rules, usually to cover vehicles or shooting. This isn't inherently bad and fantasy books also have special rules. However, the rules are more elaborate and so there is more chance to have broken unfair rules. However, this does not have to be the case. Thirdly, linked to the above, shooting and vehicle combats are usually more deadly, giving more chance of instant deaths. You could have a skill 12 character but a piece of junk space ship that gets you killed. Once again, this is a rules thing rather than a sci fi thing. Fourth, to me, luck is not a very sci-fi stat and I think that some sci-fi books don't really know what to do with it. Fifth, some sci fi books could just be fantasy dungeon crawls with the names changed, so that could be considered a let down. The main ways to remedy these things are 1) PLAYTEST and 2) come up with a reason why it is sci-fi and not just fantasy with tech instead of magic. Maybe use some ideas from Stellar Adventures or a new sci fi setting not covered by FF yet (Dune, Foundation?) This is well-written and I 100% agree. Sci-fi would arguably work better in either simple systems such as Endless Quest or systems built around sci-fi such as Star Wars & Doctor Who gamebooks (although it's a well-known fact Make Your Own Adventure With Doctor Who sucks). I haven't played Star Wars gamebooks as they were never big here in the UK. The funny thing is people like Andrew Chapman, Like Sharp and even Steve Jackson know how to write good gamebooks, yet their Sci-Fi works were some of their worst, which just lead me to conclude as you do the genre requires a lot of effort.
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Post by slloyd14 on Jul 10, 2022 12:46:57 GMT
I think the system is slightly set against sci fi to begin with. Firstly, it's called Fighting Fantasy, so sci fi might not come to mind. Secondly, every sci fi books need special rules, usually to cover vehicles or shooting. This isn't inherently bad and fantasy books also have special rules. However, the rules are more elaborate and so there is more chance to have broken unfair rules. However, this does not have to be the case. Thirdly, linked to the above, shooting and vehicle combats are usually more deadly, giving more chance of instant deaths. You could have a skill 12 character but a piece of junk space ship that gets you killed. Once again, this is a rules thing rather than a sci fi thing. Fourth, to me, luck is not a very sci-fi stat and I think that some sci-fi books don't really know what to do with it. Fifth, some sci fi books could just be fantasy dungeon crawls with the names changed, so that could be considered a let down. The main ways to remedy these things are 1) PLAYTEST and 2) come up with a reason why it is sci-fi and not just fantasy with tech instead of magic. Maybe use some ideas from Stellar Adventures or a new sci fi setting not covered by FF yet (Dune, Foundation?) This is well-written and I 100% agree. Sci-fi would arguably work better in either simple systems such as Endless Quest or systems built around sci-fi such as Star Wars & Doctor Who gamebooks (although it's a well-known fact Make Your Own Adventure With Doctor Who sucks). I haven't played Star Wars gamebooks as they were never big here in the UK. The funny thing is people like Andrew Chapman, Like Sharp and even Steve Jackson know how to write good gamebooks, yet their Sci-Fi works were some of their worst, which just lead me to conclude as you do the genre requires a lot of effort. Many thanks. You make a good point about people writing good fantasy gamebooks and bad sci-fi ones. So I thought about how fantasy and sci fi are different. I thought that sci-fi has rules that you play by. Fantasy can be put down to magic. So it's easy to accept things in Fantasy. I think the sci-fi books where you could swap science words for fantasy words don't work. Heart of Ice works because you know the world and its rules - a satellite has screwed the climate, mutations and robots are a thing. Psi powers are a thing but they can't do everything. Also Heart of Ice does something that good sci fi does which is explore concepts. Each character represents a philosophy and people talk about why they will succeed/fail. Making and sticking to your own rules and exploring concepts are tricky.
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Post by a moderator on Jul 10, 2022 13:08:49 GMT
Magic still has rules unless the author is phoning it in. It probably has fewer limitations than anything in SF, but they're still there.
Or do you always win the Sorcery! series by casting YAP in section 1 of The Shamutanti Hills so you can turn immediately to section 800 of The Crown of Kings?
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Post by slloyd14 on Jul 10, 2022 16:53:35 GMT
Magic still has rules unless the author is phoning it in. It probably has fewer limitations than anything in SF, but they're still there. Or do you always win the Sorcery! series by casting YAP in section 1 of The Shamutanti Hills so you can turn immediately to section 800 of The Crown of Kings? Yes, true. I was thinking how Sci-fi generally has rules about how the Universe is the same except...warp speed or aliens etc. And then there are certain items with certain rules - spice can make you live longer, dilithium powers warp drives etc. and then some sci-fi is about working withing the constraints of those rules or thinking what if...? For example, if spice is the only way to do interstellar travel, then everyone will fight over it. Usually, sci-fi sets up those rules and explorers a world with the. Fantasy seems to be more easily forgiven for not having to explain anything - why are there several dozen humanoid races on the same planet? Don't ask, just remember that the short ones and the pointy eared ones are on your side and the green ones aren't. Why can a warrior use a magical ring of fire but not a magic staff? Magic, innit? Why does YAP need a green wig? Because I said so. Sci-fi can do the same, by using technobabble, but then it becomes fantasy in space (Star Wars).
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kieran
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Post by kieran on Jul 10, 2022 18:08:41 GMT
The funny thing is people like Andrew Chapman, Like Sharp and even Steve Jackson know how to write good gamebooks, yet their Sci-Fi works were some of their worst Interesting - I would say Chapman is better at sci-fi than fantasy and I would say Star Strider is definitely better than Chasms at least, maybe Fangs as well. As for Steve Jackson, are we counting Appointment with FEAR as sci-fi here?
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Post by CharlesX on Jul 10, 2022 18:41:05 GMT
The funny thing is people like Andrew Chapman, Like Sharp and even Steve Jackson know how to write good gamebooks, yet their Sci-Fi works were some of their worst Interesting - I would say Chapman is better at sci-fi than fantasy and I would say Star Strider is definitely better than Chasms at least, maybe Fangs as well. As for Steve Jackson, are we counting Appointment with FEAR as sci-fi here? Well, Chapman's Clash Of The Princes is admittedly bad, but disregarding that as it is little-known.. I'm personally a fan of both Rings Of Kether and Seas Of Blood. If gameplay is an issue, Rings Of Kether feels short, which isn't helped by a long chase scene and many short "Test your (blank), then turn to (blank) or (blank)" , Seas Of Blood is great but excessively difficult. Space Assassin is enjoyable but as someone else said here feels like a bunch of tasty things put into a bowl like fish and chocolate which somehow don't work together. I did enjoy Space Assassin the first few times I played but it seems like a B grade attempt to emulate The Warlock Of Firetop Mountain via a sci-fi setting. If that sounds harsh I reckon Chapman did much better with his later works. I know Star Strider has its fans but I personally never got into it, the choices feel very random, the game underwhelming, boring and easy, the only hard part being the strange 'roll and don't get doubles' and I'm quite against do-or-die rolls, especially if they're random. The cover is very cool though. I don't know whether Appointment with F.E.A.R. is sci-fi, I would say it arguably has sci-fi elements. I don't think it's SJ's best work, because in spite of some originality it's slightly linear (bad imho) and I just prefer SJ's other works. Incidehtally, I haven't read US Steve Jackson's Robot Commando but I have heard its one of the better sci-fi FFs (along with Rebel Planet). I sometimes like the more sci-fi FFs but I feel things like atmosphere, pacing and even writing are often better in the more regular Fighting Fantasy. And that's subjective.
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Post by kieran on Jul 11, 2022 12:36:16 GMT
Incidehtally, I haven't read US Steve Jackson's Robot Commando but I have heard its one of the better sci-fi FFs (along with Rebel Planet). All subjective I suppose - it's one of my least favourite FFs but you're right that others rate it highly.
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