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Post by thealmightymudworm on Nov 7, 2013 13:51:56 GMT
From TUFFF... I bought the originals 1983-1985 but one thing has always bugged me. As far as I can tell you either go for the Borrinskin boots or the locket in Shamutanti Hills. These have a significant impact on The Seven Serpents and Crown Of Kings respectively. Is there a definitive response to this or is it a matter of individual choice? One other thing I will mention about Khare. I agree with Wilf(?) it is best to call on Libra with the deathwraith in the crypt especially for the wizard. Even with 10 skill it is still a bit tricky with the bow and silver arrows. The options in the book should be do you have a bow with silver arrows(turn to...) otherwise your only option is to call on Libra(turn to...). Making you fight and doing the luck throw is incredibly harsh. A wizard with 5 skill has virtually no chance either way especially if your luck is only 8. Question 1 above has bugged me for years.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Nov 7, 2013 13:52:33 GMT
From TUFFF... Neither item is essential. There's a route through TSS that allows you to deal with all seven Serpents without needing to use the boots, and you can get past Captain Cartoum without the locket (though it's a good deal easier if you managed to deal with all the Serpents in the previous book). I often get through TSH without acquiring either - in fact, off hand I couldn't even say how to get them.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Nov 7, 2013 13:53:33 GMT
From TUFFF... I will now put my anorak on which in reality I never take off. Acquiring the borrinskin boots allows you to avoid the very nasty baddu-bak beetle with its nasty extra possible skill damage. This seems the 'ideal' way in The Seven Serpents. This contradicts If you acquire the locket then when you meet the guard with the picture of the woman on wall in Crown then he forgets who you are and allows you straight on. If you do not have the locket then you have to make a very nasty skill roll which is nasty for an average wizard surely? So the locket seems the 'ideal' way in Crown. Definite contradiction.(My considered opinion is to take the locket because of the instant death if you fail the skill roll whereas the baddu bak damage is Libra-fixable) Nevertheless this has bugged me for years. The two paths are mutually exclusive. I wondered if there was any theory on here as to which path is best or is there a super-path I have missed?
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Nov 7, 2013 13:54:04 GMT
From TUFFF... Personally, I quite like the idea of having to choose, rather than being able to get both. Then again, there is one spell that can get you past the Baddu-Beetle without having to fight it, so assuming there's a way to acquire the essential component in Kharé (and there should be, given that TSS doesn't say 'you do not have this item, so the spell doesn't work'), that would make the boots more dispensable.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Nov 7, 2013 14:07:49 GMT
From TUFFF... Anorak-mode-again. Brilliant advice. From memory I remembered the mantis man in Khare but for years nay decades I thought he was a red herring. After faffing around for a couple of hours with Khare I now think Mantis Man is the desirable route as long as you use one of the bonus if-you-do-not-have-one-of-the-lines then you are redirected to Lortag and the rest falls into place. My considered opinion is now that the Borrinskin Boots are strictly a red herring as using the Sun spell on the beetle works a treat as you suggest. To my mind this means the locket in Hills must be the right route as it really is necessary unless you have a 12 skill in Kings. What is the weakest character you have completed Sorcery with? It goes without saying it has to be without cheating. My instinct is a 5/14/7 wizard has no chance. The deathwraith in Khare is essential and the rules are fairly strict. Bow and arrows=no chance. Calling on Libra would be tricky as 5/14/8 is tricky to say the least. Also the defence of the beggar would be tricky. Maybe casing Wok to give you -2 attack strength bonus would equalise the fight but the beggar would probably die so game over again. As wizard I normally play with 8 skill because of Flanker in Hills, the deathwraith and a reasonable chance of defending the beggar. Finally a low stamina is tricky most obviously because of the ZED spell in Kings. It is incredibly tricky to reach the end of Kings with a stamina of 8-14(if you go with the minimum). Again a high stamina from the outset is pretty much mandatory. Only a luck of 7 from the start is just about sufficient as the boosts throughout the books are quite substantial. What is the initial luck score at the end of Kings? 13 if memory serves.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Nov 7, 2013 14:09:41 GMT
From TUFFF... I agree about the Borrinskin Boots. I thought they were essential until I discovered that really quick route past the beetle, after you meet Shadrack.
The locket route past me by for years. I always went the route where you entered the tents as that seemed to be the right way. The pilfer grass just seemed like a diversion. It was only cheating when trying to pass the Captain that I remembered that illustration of the woman in the picture matching the one in SH. (Really clever and sneaky puzzle, I thought.) Did anyone actually make it all the way through the 4 books and happen to still have the locket with them at that stage, without already realizing its importance? Chance seem really remote. Anyway, regarding the perfect route. It always puzzled me in Crown of Kings that after surviving the courtyard area and making it through the Throben door, the rest of the adventure becomes very linear. I think I'm right in saying when faced with the option of going into the tower on the left, or the kitchens on the right, the only true way is to go left and encounter one of the sets of Birdmen? I'm sure when I went the kitchen route, It misses out the chance of meeting the Torturemaster, so its impossible to get through the next set of doors? This seemed a shame, since eating something you shouldn't produces all sorts of consequences, and Jackson went to a lot of effort creating these - yet you never live much longer for them to take effect. I think this is right, or has anyone managed to survive by going the kitchen way?
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Nov 7, 2013 14:34:31 GMT
From TUFFF... I'm sure when I went the kitchen route, It misses out the chance of meeting the Torturemaster, so its impossible to get through the next set of doors? This seemed a shame, since eating something you shouldn't produces all sorts of consequences, and Jackson went to a lot of effort creating these - yet you never live much longer for them to take effect. I think this is right, or has anyone managed to survive by going the kitchen way? If you are right then eat not from the larder of Throgg if you value your life was given in deadly earnest ie turn left not right.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Nov 7, 2013 14:35:32 GMT
From TUFFF (Feb 2013)... At some point over the Summer I might try to do a walkthrough of Sorcery. I am not going to do a play without cheating post at the same time. The sheer vastness of the whole thing means a walkthrough is enough. I will go with the wizard option for sure. Stats not sure but something like 8/20/7 so by the end of Kings it should be 10/20/13. I have changed my route in Khare so I am not sure how this impacts on the rest of the books. At first glance I am not sure if I need to give Glandragor his axe but I need to fight Flanker. This impacts on the items I buy from the trader. Maybe the sword is a better buy. Second I now think the Mantis Man is the route in Khare but I am not sure of the consequences. Third I need some 'useless' spell items to give to The Sham. I used to give her the gold-backed mirror from the magical fire but now I need to re-think this now I go the Mantis Man route. Could give her the bracelet of bones I suppose? People can always post their alternatives. If anyone else wants to do the warrior path then feel free.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Nov 7, 2013 14:36:54 GMT
From TUFFF... I need some 'useless' spell items to give to The Sham. I used to give her the gold-backed mirror from the magical fire but now I need to re-think this now I go the Mantis Man route. Could give her the bracelet of bones I suppose? Give her a Pebble or two. You rarely use the spell as other options tend to be more favourable, and you usually pick up more than one at a time. Same goes for Goblin's Teeth. Two Words
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Nov 7, 2013 14:37:26 GMT
From TUFFF... Or get the Galehorn from Shadrack and buy the one the Black Elves are selling, then hand over the spare one.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Nov 7, 2013 14:37:50 GMT
From TUFFF... How about a gold piece? Technically they are needed for a spell...
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Nov 7, 2013 14:39:30 GMT
From TUFFF... Interesting suggestions. I had never thought of a gold piece as a spell item but strictly speaking it is.
I am trying to remember if my route now takes me past the Black Elves. I cannot remember which way I go now. I used to go the Black Elves way and then give the Borrinskin Boots to Manata the snake charmer. Now I encounter the Baddu-Bak beetle and use a Sun spell which works a treat. You have to be careful at the beginning else you miss the first serpent.
Frankly I need to do a playthrough of my new route to see what I acquire and what consequences are incurred.
Sorcery is the non plus ultra of FF. It is slightly more adult for sure and the sheer scope lends itself to a myriad number of choices. As some other posts have hinted the choices are limited in 2,3 and 4 due to the mechanics. There are more choices in Hills but there is some impact on Khare. The spell lines in Khare mean the 'forces' are quite strong. Missing out on any of the serpents is disastrous so the 'forces' are strong there too. Likewise in Kings only the opening lends itself to some variation but the Throben Doors again mean the 'forces' are quite strong. So the upshot means the whole thing is more like Trial Of Champions where the player is forced down strict bottlenecks. I suppose this is inevitable else the books would be 1500 paragraphs long. I remember in 1985 being thunderstruck on finally seeing Crown Of Kings in WHSmith. I was gobsmacked at the £2.50 asking price but on having a quick look the sheer size assuaged my reluctance to buy.
If you cheat eg with the guard who desires the locket in Kings then you can simply 'cheat' and turn to the successful skill roll page but that is not the point it seems to me. Acquiring the right items so that your path is fairly secure is what I am aiming for.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Nov 7, 2013 14:40:47 GMT
From TUFFF... Missing out on any of the serpents is disastrous I wouldn't say so. It makes things harder certainly but far from impossible so I'd say The Seven Serpents does allow for quite a bit of freedom.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Nov 7, 2013 14:42:11 GMT
From TUFFF... I wouldn't say so. It makes things harder certainly but far from impossible so I'd say The Seven Serpents does allow for quite a bit of freedom. Missing out on the +2 to initial skill bonus is what I had in mind rather than the deducting -30 when encountering the analander bonus.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Nov 7, 2013 14:43:08 GMT
From TUFFF... I am trying to remember if my route now takes me passed the Black Elves. I cannot remember which way I go now. I used to go the Black Elves way and then give the Borrinskin Boots to Manata the snake charmer. Now I encounter the Baddu-Bak beetle and use a Sun spell which works a treat. You have to be careful at the beginning else you miss the first serpent. The Black Elves come after the Moon Serpent. It's Centaurs that you encounter before Manata.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Nov 7, 2013 14:44:01 GMT
From TUFFF... I have checked my notes for my character in Sorcery. If luck in Hills is 7 then it is 8 in Khare. At the end of Serpents it is boosted to 9. Finally there are the boosts near the beginning in Kings which take you up to 11. Does anyone know of any other boosts I have missed?
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Nov 7, 2013 14:45:06 GMT
From TUFFF... I have typed up all four books in Word. I am still not sure how much detail to go into. I have decided to ditch Glandragor's axe at the beginning as strictly it is superfluous to Khare. This allows you to buy the remarkably powerful broadsword with +1 to attack strength. I had never considered buying it before though it eats up the gold pieces if you are unlucky with a 2d6 roll. When to eat is not always clear. Using the sword against the Deathwraith in Khare is helpful as you are still entitled to the attack strength bonus but with no damage done of course. This makes it easier to call on Libra though an 8 luck is still a bit risky. Jumping forward to Serpents I had forgotten how ruthless the luck roll is when your boat is buffeted by the water serpent. Again 8 luck is very risky considering the consequences. What items to buy at the black elves camp is still not clear. Maybe just take the pearl ring as a gift. To trade with the sham strictly there is no reason not to trade a pebble, a gold-backed mirror(if not broken by falling in the hole earlier) or a goblin's tooth. Also dump the vial of glue for some sand just prior to the fire serpent. Finally after checking the options in CoK there is no need to enter the cave with the diseased dead body at all. Simply go into the cave to acquire the stoppered bottle and then become angry in a later encounter(shades of CoC with the female tornado) so you encounter page 545 and then turn to 525. No problemo. The only thing I need to check is if there is a way to restore stamina just after ridding oneself of Jann or just before you encounter Jann. Ideally a perfect time to cast a doc spell. Let me see -7 stamina for the zed spell and -4 for the zap spell so -11 stamina in total. So a 14 stamina character should be fine as long as you can cast a doc spell. Must check the closing paragraphs again.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Nov 7, 2013 14:46:27 GMT
From TUFFF... Using the sword against the Deathwraith in Khare is helpful as you are still entitled to the attack strength bonus but with no damage done of course. This makes it easier to call on Libra though an 8 luck is still a bit risky. Jumping forward to Serpents I had forgotten how ruthless the luck roll is when your boat is buffeted by the water serpent. Again 8 luck is very risky considering the consequences. There should be a few places where you can pick up a Lucky Charm/Talisman. This will increase your chances of making those Luck rolls as you'll effectively be rolling against a 9 rather than 8. you can find one: on the Troll sentry in TSH; or the cabinet of Fortune in Kharé. The Gnome barterer in Kharé has something similar that it only deducts Luck points when Unlucky, and if you haven't found one by the time you reach Fenestra in TSS, get the Lucky Charm from her so you can at least roll at full Luck. Two Words
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Nov 7, 2013 14:49:17 GMT
From TUFFF... There should be a few places where you can pick up a Lucky Charm/Talisman. This will increase your chances of making those Luck rolls as you'll effectively be rolling against a 9 rather than 8. you can find one: on the Troll sentry in TSH; or the cabinet of Fortune in Kharé. the Gnome barterer in Kharé has something similar that it only deducts Luck points when Unlucky, and if you haven't found one by the time you reach Fenestra in TSS, get the Lucky Charm from her so you can at least roll at full Luck. Interesting suggestions. I feel a bit like Blackadder's opponent Samuel Johnson when Blackadder says my deepest contrafibularities ie my knowledge of the 'false' paths is not that strong. I have tried to make the main encounters easier such as using the sun spell against the Baddu-bak beetle. I have not thought about the 'consequences' very much. Might need to wait until the Summer months to finally post. I do not even remember the troll sentry in TSH. What does he guard? Second I am not sure my path through Khare takes me passed the cabinet of fortune. Likewise the gnome barterer. Finally I will have to check my encounter with Fenestra so I buy the calling whistle and take the lucky charm as a gift or the other way around!
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Nov 7, 2013 14:51:03 GMT
From TUFFF... After a bit of perusal most of those lucky charms are pretty hard to come by. I am quite taken by the idea of buying the calling whistle and then taking the lucky charm as a gift. At least you will have a luck of 8 for the roll to come when you are buffeted in the boat so roughly a 2/3 chance of making it? One of the things that really surprises me about FF is how you can still tinker with the path you take. Also the difference between a child's perspective compared to an adult's perspective is striking. Some years ago I looked back over my ideal pathways that I still had written down from when I was 11-13. My youthful approach was to have as many encounters as possible on a 'correct' path. My older self tends to pick the path of least resistance. This is especially evident in WofFM, FofD and CofT. For instance I used to go for the shield in Warlock but the 'bonus' is so weak it is hardly worth bothering imo. The only thing I would like different in Warlock is the +2 skill magic sword to be before the Iron Cyclops as it is really only has trophy value it is so late in the game.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Nov 7, 2013 14:51:38 GMT
From TUFFF... I have done a proper game using my new system. I wondered if a wizard starting with 8/14/7 could make it through. Very helpfully there is a chance to cast a DOC spell in CoK just before setting off for the prison tower which helps a lot. I finished with 1 stamina point by the time I blew the silver whistle. End initial stats 10/14/11. I admit I cheated once precisely at the point mentioned above namely in the boat crossing the river. I tested my luck and threw a 10. So it is possible to complete Sorcery with fairly low character rolls but you need a bit of luck. Possibly there is a way to acquire more luck as someone helpfully said above. Nevertheless I have not played through every possibilty. Had a quick look at some of the options the other day. The troll sentry is unlikely to yield the luck boost as it is only proffered on a lucky dice roll. Likewise the cabinet of fortune. The gnome barterer is a different kettle of fish but I am not sure you can encounter him on the successful path. It is most likely you will be at your max luck by the time of the luck roll on the boat so the lucky charm from Fenestra is not that helpful in the short term but could be useful in the long term.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Nov 7, 2013 14:52:17 GMT
From TUFFF... After faffing about with Khare yet again it is possible, as far as I can tell, to take the powerful lucky charm from the cabinet of fortune. It does effectively entail doubling back to to Lortag and then going to the festival again but there is nothing in the text that debars you from doing this. This would not have helped me in my game as detailed above but being able to roll a 9 or less are fairly good odds. Unfortunately I never did A-level mathematics so I am not sure how to work out the percentages. From elsewhere on on here is a 7 or less 57% so for a 9 is about 75%? A 3/4 chance is not too bad for the roll on the boat in Serpents.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Nov 7, 2013 14:53:16 GMT
From TUFFF... From elsewhere on on here is a 7 or less 57% so for a 9 is about 75%? You stand a 5 in 6 chance (or 83%) off rolling a 9 or lower. So yeah, those are some pretty good odds.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Nov 7, 2013 14:54:13 GMT
From TUFFF... This is mightily helpful to call on Libra later on in the crypt and makes the cruel luck roll on the boat in Serpents a bit more unlikely. Funny enough, I've never considered 'calling on Libra' as an option in the Sorcery! books unless I find I have no choice (i.e. I haven't planned to call on her in advance using my knowledge of the game, it has just ended up that way because of bad luck on my part). I've always assumed, no idea why, that calling on her is almost like failing the game but with a get out clause, so that planning to do it, as part of an optimal route, is a bit of a cheat. What do you all think?
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Nov 7, 2013 14:56:11 GMT
From TUFFF... Funny enough, I've never considered 'calling on Libra' as an option in the Sorcery! books unless I find I have no choice (i.e. I haven't planned to call on her in advance using my knowledge of the game, it has just ended up that way because of bad luck on my part). I've always assumed, no idea why, that calling on her is almost like failing the game but with a get out clause, so that planning to do it, as part of an optimal route, is a bit of a cheat. What do you all think? I agree you shouldn't have to call on her as part of an optimal route, but then Steve does throw a few obligatory tough encounters at the reader (the Death Wraith in Khare and the Manticore in The Shamutanti Hills is a tough fight for a low-Skilled warrior) so I think cautious use of calling on Libra is just another resource to manage. For instance if (playing as a warrior) you blunder into one of the death traps in the manticore's cavern, you will waste a Libra call there and then be at a severe disadvantage against the manticore itself. Libra calls seen in that respect aren't much different to the old potions of Skill/Strength/Fortune of the main series books - take the optimal route and you should still have one for when you really need it. Related to this, is it acceptable to use a Libra call when in the prison tower in Book 4 to heal yourself? Technically you're no longer within the fortress itself and at that stage you probably need the Stamina for the ZED spell.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Nov 7, 2013 14:58:12 GMT
From TUFFF... ...is it acceptable to use a Libra call when in the prison tower in Book 4 to heal yourself? Technically you're no longer within the fortress itself and at that stage you probably need the Stamina for the ZED spell. In section 439, Libra says she's endangering herself just speaking to you, and the clear implication is that you're not going to be able to call on her again. That close to the fortress, she doesn't seem to be able to cure the trembling disease - she tells you if you have it, and if she were able to get rid of it, surely she'd say so at that point. 454 suggests that the prison tower is right next door to Mampang (you 'step across' to it), so while in there you'd be closer to Mampang than you were when Libra took the risk of approaching you in your dreams. I'm pretty sure that Steve's intent was that in the tower, you're on your own (except for Jann, who's worse than no help).
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Nov 7, 2013 14:58:47 GMT
From TUFFF... Fair points. It's not something I've ever considered before but there's been a few times where I haven't had enough Stamina for the Zed spell and been properly annoyed. Thought perhaps this could be a way round that problem but I guess not.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Nov 7, 2013 15:01:19 GMT
From TUFFF... Fair points. It's not something I've ever considered before but there's been a few times where I haven't had enough Stamina for the Zed spell and been properly annoyed. Thought perhaps this could be a way round that problem but I guess not. On my saved walkthough there is the opportunity to cast a DOC spell(medicinal potion given to you by the she-satyr thingummy) just before leaving for the erm prison tower iirc. This means with a bit of luck, my wizard had 10 skill, you can make it to the end with 1 stamina point intact just before blowing the silver whistle. The only problem seems to be if you throw a 11 or 12 just before entering the prison tower you end up losing an extra stamina point so you have to fight Farren Whyde. I am assuming a 14 initial stamina here. Nevertheless a boosted from Serpents wizard with 10 skill and the +1 a.s. broadsword acquired back in Hills should suffice.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Nov 7, 2013 15:02:37 GMT
From TUFFF... In section 439, Libra says she's endangering herself just speaking to you, and the clear implication is that you're not going to be able to call on her again. That close to the fortress, she doesn't seem to be able to cure the trembling disease - she tells you if you have it, and if she were able to get rid of it, surely she'd say so at that point. 454 suggests that the prison tower is right next door to Mampang (you 'step across' to it), so while in there you'd be closer to Mampang than you were when Libra took the risk of approaching you in your dreams. I'm pretty sure that Steve's intent was that in the tower, you're on your own (except for Jann, who's worse than no help). I totally agree with the strict interpretation. Libra is no help in Crown. If Libra could help via the samaritans of schinn, for example, then this would be made clear in the text. I have always thought the end of Khare is very cruel as there are no boosts at all unlike Hills. In my walkthrough I advise calling on Libra to revitalise your stats fairly near the beginning of Serpents otherwise a low cal wizard is mincemeat.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Nov 7, 2013 15:09:30 GMT
From TUFFF (August 2013)... I know this thread has been quiet for a few months, so I thought you might like to know I intend to post a full, 'golden path' route through all 4 sorcery books with a sk5/st14/lk7 wizard character within the next two weeks or so. Hope you don't mind, johnbrawn? Don't want to step on anyones toes or anything. Please don't ZAP me! I have already mapped the books, found the optimal path and played it through from start to finish successfully, so now it's just a question of typing it all up. It's been a labour of love, and weirdly enough, I found Khare to be my new favourite of the four. It will incorporate everything from getting disastrous dice rolls, evading every possible combat through magic, killing all 7 serpents, which spell items to get (including when to sell/trade them, and why) and when is the optimal time to do what and where (charms, provisions etc). Here's some factoids to whet your appetite: 1) Neither glandragor's axe nor the +1atst broadsword are needed from cantopani; 2) Yes, the water serpent luck test IS the riskiest part in the whole series, but you'll still have about an 83% chance of success; 3) It will incorporate 8 fights and 26 spells over 549 references, and takes place over a course of fourteen 'in-game' days Watch this space, and remember - if you should ever face the serpent of time, remember the all-important chant: hiz fiz danno do agga bagga mogol.
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