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Post by lordomnibok on Apr 7, 2018 21:58:58 GMT
As for Ian Livingstone, while Crypt and Blood may be the only virtually impossible books he's written, everything from Deathtrap Dungeon onwards (and arguably also City of Thieves) made a lie of the claim that 'any player, no matter how weak on initial dice rolls, should be able to get through fairly easily'. The 'wimp may win' clause should be scrubbed from some books, and weaker characters should have been presented as an opportunity for exploitation, to pave the successful route for tougher heroes. I think that would have been ok. From a game mechanics perspective, the original rule is the best, but to create a world that feels real, I don't mind certain quests requiring tougher heroes, (as long as its not ridiculous.)
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Post by vastariner on Apr 7, 2018 22:38:25 GMT
Livingstone's classics are more that he is a very good writer. He is not a good game designer. His books are linear with obvious side-quests. At least once one gets past DD. Things like "do you want to let the dwarf keep talking?" are utter immersion breakers as it is obvious that you are going to get something useful.
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Post by Wilf on Apr 8, 2018 13:16:47 GMT
"Hither Chaos Angel Died" is an anagram of "The Dead Charlie Higson".
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Post by a moderator on Apr 8, 2018 13:24:24 GMT
As for Ian Livingstone, while Crypt and Blood may be the only virtually impossible books he's written, everything from Deathtrap Dungeon onwards (and arguably also City of Thieves) made a lie of the claim that 'any player, no matter how weak on initial dice rolls, should be able to get through fairly easily'. The 'wimp may win' clause should be scrubbed from some books, and weaker characters should have been presented as an opportunity for exploitation, to pave the successful route for tougher heroes. I think that would have been ok. From a game mechanics perspective, the original rule is the best, but to create a world that feels real, I don't mind certain quests requiring tougher heroes, (as long as its not ridiculous.) They did get rid of the claim after Temple of Terror, by which time Ian had only had 5 or 6 'impossible to beat without a double-figure Skill score' books published.
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Post by johnbrawn1972 on Apr 8, 2018 14:20:42 GMT
has anyone here seen the inside of the shamutanti hills re-print ? Has the john blanche art been left untouched ? I had a look at the art today in Waterstones. The wonderfully atmospheric and intricate artwork which. along with the more adult language and puzzles, intimated this is more for teenagers than the earlier books has been dumbed down to a level which is laughable. The last paragraph 456 which beforehand evoked Lord Of The Rings now looks as if you are being congratulated by village idiots. They clearly have no idea what the product is and who it is aimed towards. It is a shame but at least youngsters who like the written word(I am starting to sound like Giles in Buffy)will be taken on a wonderful journey but without the visual reinforcement.
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Post by johnbrawn1972 on Apr 8, 2018 14:55:06 GMT
I would suggest Ian Livingstone was a very good writer with City Of Thieves and Deathtrap Dungeon being efforts which have easily withstood the tooth of time. After that I not so sure.
Arguably by the time of Trial of Champions and Crypt of the Sorcerer either the passion had dimmed or he no longer really cared resulting in efforts which were either difficult or nearly impossible where the atmosphere was non-existent or the mien that was created was sheer incredulity at the scattering of necessary items strewn over hundreds of square miles. I can only presume the worlds he created only existed in category 5 hurricane zones.
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Post by Ed on Apr 9, 2018 10:40:39 GMT
Thanks for that info
Yes just as I feared and I cant believe that Steve and Ian approved of this.
Although its heartening to see on twitter that most of the fans who are now playing the FF series with their kids are using the original editions.
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Post by Wilf on Apr 10, 2018 20:09:49 GMT
First time out, I rolled a 1 for my Skill, and got slaughtered by the Demon Merchant.
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Post by lordomnibok on Apr 10, 2018 22:36:12 GMT
First time out, I rolled a 1 for my Skill, and got slaughtered by the Demon Merchant. Haha. That is bad luck but well done for playing by the rules. I'll be doing the same. I hope its well balanced. Better luck next time.
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Post by lordomnibok on Apr 10, 2018 22:38:49 GMT
The 'wimp may win' clause should be scrubbed from some books, and weaker characters should have been presented as an opportunity for exploitation, to pave the successful route for tougher heroes. I think that would have been ok. From a game mechanics perspective, the original rule is the best, but to create a world that feels real, I don't mind certain quests requiring tougher heroes, (as long as its not ridiculous.) They did get rid of the claim after Temple of Terror, by which time Ian had only had 5 or 6 'impossible to beat without a double-figure Skill score' books. That's actually very interesting. Somehow I never noticed that. Thanks.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,453
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Apr 11, 2018 19:10:48 GMT
Well had my first crack at Gates of Death today. Here are my thoughts (no spoilers): - The writing is odd. Sometimes it's quite detailed, other times (like in the Background) ridiculously brusque. This mixed with the injection of occasional off-the-wall and toilet humour actually reminded me of Sky Lord - The art is still not great, but one or two images were pretty decent - better than Port of Peril - Gameplay is also a bit unusual, it allows for a lot more backtracking than usual. Sometimes Higson seems very au fait with FF mechanics, other times he doesn't seem to really know how things like Stamina work. - Quite often I felt quite pleased with myself for discovering some piece of useful information, only to stumble across that same information several times afterwards. Or the information in question turned out to be fairly useless. - The book seems very forgiving combat wise and most of the poorer choices I made had such mild penalties that they felt more like flavour than a punishment - I encountered a few continuity errors - assuming I knew who characters I had never heard of before were, or one time assuming a character had died in a different way - I encountered one link with the wrong section number. I also encountered a section where you were asked which item you wanted to use. I had none of them but that wasn't an option. In both instances I had to backtrack a bit which was annoying
So yeah mixed feelings is probably a fair assessment.
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Post by lordomnibok on Apr 12, 2018 0:12:21 GMT
Interesting thoughts Kieran. I'll hold my judgment til I've read it. I opened it up out of curiosity this afternoon and I glanced reference 421. Didn't give me a good feeling but I'll give it a go and hopefully that page was just a one off. Going to read Mudworm's latest entry first, when time allows. But I'll delve into this after, I suspect.
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Post by Wilf on Apr 12, 2018 6:33:32 GMT
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Post by Ed on Apr 12, 2018 11:29:59 GMT
I had a look at GATES OF DEATH yesterday but I only found it by looking under H for Charlie Higson.
And you would never know it was a FF book going by the cover.
Why on earth did Scholastic commission such lavish artwork and then not use it ?
The adventure itself seemed ok and the art was effectively creepy.
And then I got to the page with the bum monster.
Yes , you read that correctly.
BUM MONSTER.
Or BUTTOCK MONSTER.
Or Arse Face. Whatever.
This killed the book stone dead for me.
This must rank as the nadir of the FF series to date.
The apple has fallen very far from the tree.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,453
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Apr 12, 2018 11:48:38 GMT
Yes, the Bum-Faced Monster just screamed Sky Lord to me.
What's more inexcusable is Higson doesn't even do anything with the concept. It could just be a standard demon.
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Post by johnbrawn1972 on Apr 12, 2018 12:02:25 GMT
I have just had a dispatch e-mail so I will be hard at work on a solution by the weekend. My autistic self will be trying to squeeze the maximum out of minimum attributes.
I think because I ordered at a slight discount I have been made to wait which is somewhat annoying. Why should I be penalized?
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Post by electricwater on Apr 12, 2018 15:35:05 GMT
My copy of Gates of Death arrived today (damaged, so I'll be requesting a replacement). Had a quick leaf through... wow - the illustrations are so poor. The same rubbish as Port of Peril. The cover is also bland. When I was a child in the mid-80's, I would spend hours looking at the beautiful artwork by the likes of Russ Nicholson, Iain McCaig and others. It fired the imagination, helped to enrich the fantasy worlds, and inspired me to become an artist. Those books also sold millions. Why do they think these uninspired cartoons will be successful?
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Post by Ed on Apr 12, 2018 17:55:27 GMT
I couldn't agree more.
As John Brawn pointed out, Scholastic clearly haven't the first clue as to how to properly package FF for today's readers.
They haven't even retained the full cover art style.
Its like listening to a really bad cover version of a song you loved from the 1980s.
As I stated on my own FF blog, its FF of the past that I'm still in love with , not FF in its present form.
A new FF adventure is not something to be written as a lark or taken lightly.
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Post by Wilf on Apr 12, 2018 19:48:56 GMT
Skill 400, Stamina 800!!!
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Post by lordomnibok on Apr 12, 2018 22:20:48 GMT
I have just had a dispatch e-mail so I will be hard at work on a solution by the weekend. My autistic self will be trying to squeeze the maximum out of minimum attributes. I think because I ordered at a slight discount I have been made to wait which is somewhat annoying. Why should I be penalized? New releases don't come round often John. I know you love working out the optimal routes but I hope that smashing out the solution at double speed doesn't detract from your enjoyment of those initial play throughs.
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Post by johnbrawn1972 on Apr 13, 2018 13:01:10 GMT
It is ready to collect so I will pick it up tomorrow.
My efforts with earlier books meant I oscillated between frustration and enjoyment.
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Post by Wilf on Apr 14, 2018 10:54:05 GMT
Your hand closes on... one of your socks.
It smells of cheese.
Damn.
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Post by lordomnibok on Apr 14, 2018 12:38:49 GMT
Your hand closes on... one of your socks.
It smells of cheese.
Damn. This was the death scene reference that I accidently glanced when I first picked up the book.
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Post by offm on Apr 14, 2018 16:13:06 GMT
What the heck did i just saw a lady butt monster with two faces on the butt cheeks?! I am so excited to kill her.!! Damn .
Sent from my SUNSET2 using proboards
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Post by Zhu Bajie on Apr 16, 2018 21:36:20 GMT
Quite enjoying Gates of Death. Tonally it's all over the shop, from gritty-dark to silly toilet humour, which is quite unusual. Bier Goggles, Holy Man, puns abound. Port Blacksand and Lord Azzur *again* - I'm not really a fan of FF as a setting, I prefer it just as some random places adventure happens in, and all these recurring motifs give me a slight nausea. That said, I did like Logan the trickster god turning up and telling me off for a random cheat - that was fun, and I hated The Riddling Reaver. It's similar to Port of Peril in that regard as the quest sends you around Allansia visiting various sites of interest from other books. Structurally there are loops, so it's possible to keep going around the same part and picking up the +1 stamina objects. I might be wrong but Scorpion Swamp aside (and that had mechanics that deal with it) I think that is a first for FF. It also looks like a requirement to keep back-tracking over these as more 'information' is picked up, but perhaps node mapping would have made this easier. I think it is also the first use of a MONSTER stat for pure drama. Higsons character names are great, and I really like the weapon system. The Adventure Sheet in the back of the book is worse than useless, there are loads of potions to keep track of (it's very potion-centric), and not nearly enough space to write any of them in, and loads of space for SSL, so I'm working up my own old-school classic 80s style character sheet for it. Might do some 'cards' for the weapons as well.
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Post by Wilf on Apr 16, 2018 23:10:11 GMT
I'm imagining Mr. Higson has kids, and that he asked them what characters or monsters they'd like him to put in the Temple. Stick Man and Bum-Faced Monster are very close together, and just outside the toilet. In fairness, FF should be written for a new generation of kids, not us grown-up nostalgia-chasers, so no complaints from me.
There's a few structural flaws (The High Priestess encounter isn't mandatory; Lady Webspinn could recognise you even if you've never met her before; Bum-face never gets permanently vanquished, and you can pick up a lifetime's supply of cold sausage if you keep defeating it; and so on...) but it's otherwise a very enjoyable read, albeit one with few diversions from the True Path, which rob it of its replayability quite quickly. It's not a difficult book, either - there's no secret references to be found or codes to crack, and most of the clues and items you need can be found in multiple places.
The biggest fault with Gates Of Death is, of course, the presentation, with its abysmal artwork and its horrendous new cover template. But that's not the author's fault, and if he upped the difficulty a little and did a little more playtesting, I would welcome another book from him. Certainly Gates Of Death is a better effort than Ian Livingstone's last two.
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Post by Pete Byrdie on Apr 17, 2018 10:27:54 GMT
Quite enjoying Gates of Death. Tonally it's all over the shop, from gritty-dark to silly toilet humour, which is quite unusual. Bier Goggles, Holy Man, puns abound. Port Blacksand and Lord Azzur *again* - I'm not really a fan of FF as a setting, I prefer it just as some random places adventure happens in, and all these recurring motifs give me a slight nausea. That said, I did like Logan the trickster god turning up and telling me off for a random cheat - that was fun, and I hated The Riddling Reaver. It's similar to Port of Peril in that regard as the quest sends you around Allansia visiting various sites of interest from other books. Structurally there are loops, so it's possible to keep going around the same part and picking up the +1 stamina objects. I might be wrong but Scorpion Swamp aside (and that had mechanics that deal with it) I think that is a first for FF. It also looks like a requirement to keep back-tracking over these as more 'information' is picked up, but perhaps node mapping would have made this easier. I think it is also the first use of a MONSTER stat for pure drama. Higsons character names are great, and I really like the weapon system. The Adventure Sheet in the back of the book is worse than useless, there are loads of potions to keep track of (it's very potion-centric), and not nearly enough space to write any of them in, and loads of space for SSL, so I'm working up my own old-school classic 80s style character sheet for it. Might do some 'cards' for the weapons as well. I always found it odd that the box for STAMINA (which frequently changes) was always the same size as that for LUCK (which changes quite often) and SKILL (which rarely changes). But then, who uses the adventure sheets in the books anyway?
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Post by johnbrawn1972 on Apr 17, 2018 13:17:39 GMT
I am at work so I will do a quick review. My feeling is it is not much better but it is a slight improvement.
Considering it is 470 references there seems to be much less to do than the 450 references in Night Of The Necromancer.
To say it feels less tight than the Jonathan Greene masterpieces is an understatement. The comparison again is his masterpieces unlock deeper structures whereas here you wander anywhere and are given the information in case you missed it in an earlier reference. This gives the illusion of many paths to victory when the paths have little gameplay difference.
If you have a higher skill the Lord Azzur path seems to be the warrior path. If you have a lower skill then the smoke-oil path gives you a better chance.
All in all I think it is a case of the Emperor's new clothes.
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Post by Zhu Bajie on Apr 17, 2018 19:47:59 GMT
I always found it odd that the box for STAMINA (which frequently changes) was always the same size as that for LUCK (which changes quite often) and SKILL (which rarely changes). But then, who uses the adventure sheets in the books anyway? According to my eBay purchases, quite a few people like to use the adventure sheets in the books, in pen as well. Heathens. No idea why it would be a mystery that the stat boxes are the same size, all you need is two dice, a pencil and an eraser.
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Post by lordomnibok on Apr 17, 2018 21:40:33 GMT
I imagine that almost everyone just uses a separate sheet of paper. If someone uses the actual adventure sheet then i would presume it was their first go at a gamebook. Even with a pencil and an eraser, I think I would end up rubbing a hole right through most books before completing them. Though I would love to see someone try to use the actual equipment box on a Livingstone adventure.
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