sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,677
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Aug 2, 2020 19:45:08 GMT
17 : Valgan's SKILL/STAMINA are boosted depending on how many places we visited, but that doesn't seem logical : it should be the portal itself which gets mighter during the time we travel, so Chaos Incarnate should evolve rather than Valgan. Even better, Valgan may get weaker as long as he uses power to open the portal.
Probably a bit late to make this change. I saw it as Valgan drawing power from the Chaos Gate so he gets stronger the longer he is in its vicinity. The Gate only fuels the Chaos Incarnate if you failed to ever obtain the Sword of Tamahelos. I know it's not a great argument but you are likely to find many instances in gamebooks where something happens without much logic to it. It's usually best to go with it.
17 during combat : could the Crystal Amulet be useful against chaos bolt ?
No. The Amulet will help in instances where you are told to make a Luck Test to avoid hostile magic rather than when you may choose to Test your Luck to lessen damage dealt.
21 : can't understand why the master thief gives us a clue and then proclaims he has to kill us. He shouldn't have given us the clue. And his characs 9/10 are way over the other thieves, and there's no reason for that.
I initially thought this was odd too. The way I see it, he is not trying to kill you because he's just given you information, but more so because you have seen the thieves' guild and know where it is in The Noose. It could be a rule in the guild to not allow strangers to know about it, at the same time he feels obligated to tell you the information you seek...if you are wily enough to escape with that knowledge. A Master Thief having higher attributes than his underlings is quite normal. If Blacksand! is anything to go by, I'd say all their stats are actually a bit lower than many other thieves so they are possibly all giving you a better chance to escape.
66 : maybe we could have a tiny chance to escape ? Test luck 3 times or roll a double... dunno.
It may seem harsh but I don't think it's too unfair. Getting lost in a mine isn't really a thing you can Luck your way out of. IIRC there are a couple of people who warn that you MUST have a map otherwise you will get lost.
143 / 261 / 378 : Harend's brother lives in a hut outside the city, right. But then, when we want to meet him it we first go to 378 inspect mines, which is unconsistent with the fact he lives way outside the city. I would add a code instead.
Didn't notice this before but reading it does sound a bit odd. I would change the line at 261 from 'If you don't, you can either go down to the quarry to investigate one of the mines (turn to 378), or leave the city altogether (turn to 313)' to 'If you don't, but plan on going down to the quarry to investigate one of the mines (turn to 378). Otherwise, you leave the city altogether (turn to 313)' This way, you have the mindset to go but haven't gone there yet, which allows you to meet your contacts first.
293 : killing Saw-Tooth with the poison is not mentioned, and finally that was not very useful because we have really tough fights in any case.
The Baron figures you would have had something to do with the Saw-Tooth's death. If you did not kill it with poison, you would have had to kill it in battle instead. The fights against the critters and the golem are quite survivable because you have Garn with you, whereas the fight against the Saw-Tooth can be deadly without him. You only fight the Bills and Centipedes in pairs which means after surviving 6 attack rounds, you won't even face most of the other critters. If it still seems too difficult, the best I can do is to lower the number of attack rounds from 6 to 5, and lower the Golem's Stamina from 10 to 8. But let me know if you make this change.
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Post by linflas on Aug 3, 2020 10:00:52 GMT
Thanks for your answers. 17 : added that line to explain the boost. "Indeed, the more time he spent in contact with the chaotic forces, the more his power will have grown." 21 : I don't modify anything, but the master skill is really high. 8 could be better. 66 : added italic words on people warnings. "Vous devez posséder une carte." 143 : changed line with your proposition. 293 : lowered rounds count to 5 and golem stamina to 8.
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,677
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Aug 3, 2020 14:54:43 GMT
Note that although his Skill is decent, it is possible to make the fight last only 2 attack rounds if you use Luck and target the first thief while parrying the rest. This part of the adventure and the valley of the Boulder Beasts are the only two real trap areas of the book. A first time adventurer blundering into either area will know to avoid them in future attempts or find ways to get around them for a better outcome. The adventure is not designed for a minimum stats character but a below average character has a decent chance of survival if he uses his previous experience to aid him. Visiting certain locations first will help make certain other areas easier to deal with, but none of the locations are easy. If you want, I can include 3 pre-generated characters for players to use. Their stats will be vastly different but each one can still beat the adventure.
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Post by linflas on Aug 3, 2020 20:12:39 GMT
If you planned to generate them, please do so ! And If you have special rules as well. When translating and playtesting, I found FTS too easy to complete (got SK 10 ST 19 LU 9). So I got a few ideas... First, a unique pre-generated character : SK 9 ST 13 LU 11. Skill 9 is really the minimum to complete FTS imho. Stamina is weak, this was intended as I don't like the idea that a human being, even a hero, can have over 3 points more than a - let's say - master thief . And we can get 4 points everyday by eating a second meal. High luck is for using it a lot during tough fights of course. Then, let's say we're able to modify our default characs by chance. Roll 2 dice *twice* and apply two below rules (or the same) depending on score (rules may change) : 2 - lose 1 SK 3 - lose 1 LU 4 - lost 1 ST 5 - do not change anything 6 - add 1 ST 7 - add 1 LU 8 - add 1 LU + 1 ST 9 - add 1 SK 10 - add 1 SK + 1 ST 11 - add 2 SK 12 - add 2 SK + 2 ST + 1 LU And final new rule, tell me if it's good or not : *tadaaaaa* special hits ! When rolling for your attack strength (not foe), if you score a double, you make special hit : 1x1 = fumble : lose assault regardless attack strengths and lost 3 ST, your attack strength is lowered by 2 on next turn 2x2 = dodge : if your attack strength is lower, lose 1 ST because you dodge just in time. if your attack strength is higher, normal damage to foe. 3x3 = parry : if your attack strength is lower, you don't lose any ST point but your attack strength is lowered by 1 on next turn. if your attack strength is higher, normal damage to foe. 4x4 = feint : if your attack strength is lower, you and foe lose 1 ST both. if your attack strength is higher, normal damage to foe and his attack strength is lowered by one on next turn. 5x5 = powerful hit : if your attack strengh is lower, normal damage to you. if your attack strength is higher, foe lose 4 ST. 6x6 = critical hit : you win assault regardless attack strengths. foe lose 3 ST and his attack strength is lowered by 2 on next turn
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Post by linflas on Aug 3, 2020 20:30:14 GMT
About the drawings : - there's a big gap between jeweller and spider-snake sections, so I think about drawing a boulder beast at 231. Tell me what you think. - then I got a little problem with the Dragon Couser : the one I penciled is wounded with the broken door (see below). At section 351, it is not already wounded. So that illustration will be for 169 or 271, which is quite close to stag beetle and Mr "Spake"... So I may need another illustration at 340-ish : Gregor at 328, clerk at 337, Nicodemus home at 350, Lieutenant talking to ethereal visage at 356 - I do prefer that one, Ogre at 357...
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,677
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Aug 3, 2020 21:53:31 GMT
I really appreciate your enthusiasm liflas but I'm going to stick with the standard FF rules. Your additions while creative add far too much to an adventure already brimming with various new rules and gameplay mechanics. Plus I already have a guy coding the adventure and I don't want to make his job even more complex than it is.
Pre-generated characters I had in mind are in a similar fashion to the ones featured in FF Wizard series 2 (the large shield covers) so, again, only standard FF rules will be used. Oddly enough, one of them is SK10, ST18, LK9 so only 1 Stamina difference to yours.
The adventure is designed to be not too difficult yet challenging to players fairly new to it. I've had mixed reviews on the difficulty so far. Most have said it's too hard unless you know the book inside out, others failed at their first location of visit, a few more have said it's really easy while giving themselves maxed out stats, and a couple said they reached the dark elf base but lacked the items needed to win. You are the first to claim it is too easy based on slightly above average stats, so I am curious as to which order you chose to visit the 5 main locations. Usually if I get such mixed views on the difficulty level, then I feel the level should be about right.
The other pre-generated characters I had are: SK11, ST17, LK7 and SK8, ST23, LK12. I'll have to name and give them all a background at some point.
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,677
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Aug 3, 2020 22:15:19 GMT
About the drawings : - there's a big gap between jeweller and spider-snake sections, so I think about drawing a boulder beast at 231. Tell me what you think. - then I got a little problem with the Dragon Couser : the one I penciled is wounded with the broken door (see below). At section 351, it is not already wounded. So that illustration will be for 169 or 271, which is quite close to stag beetle and Mr "Spake"... So I may need another illustration at 340-ish : Gregor at 328, clerk at 337, Nicodemus home at 350, Lieutenant talking to ethereal visage at 356 - I do prefer that one, Ogre at 357...
- I would put the Dragon Couser at 169 (another lovely picture) and forget about doing the Stag Beetle. - I would put the Boulder Beast at 231 and have the Lieutenant Ishenla at 356 OR - Put the Boulder Beast at 341 and have the Lieutenant Targamis at 233.
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Post by linflas on Aug 4, 2020 6:45:03 GMT
No problem, I'll stick with FF rules About illustrations, i choose 169, 231 and 356. The Stag Beetle is already finished, that'll be a bonus drawing.
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,677
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Aug 4, 2020 14:49:54 GMT
Okay. Bonus is good.
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Post by linflas on Aug 7, 2020 8:45:05 GMT
If you don't mind, could you write here short background for the 3 pre-generated characters ? I need to translate them before finishing the book layout. Thanks a lot !
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,677
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Aug 8, 2020 19:30:05 GMT
Pre-Generated Characters:
Crystal Skyguard
Skill 10 Stamina 17 Luck 9
Crystal was orphaned at the age of ten when a raiding band of Hill Trolls attacked her village. Upon seeing her family killed, she fought back ferociously against the Trolls slaying several before they backed away to find easier pickings. Vengeance burnt inside her but she was too exhausted to give chase and her village was already destroyed. Crystal and a handful of survivors found sanctuary at the nearby town of Stonebridge and have lived there ever since. Enlightened by the local priest, she was taught to control her anger and use it to become stronger in mind and body. Crystal became a disciple to Throff, the earth goddess, and a valuable ally to the dwarves when she offered her services as a bodyguard, protecting the town and its trade routes from hostile forces.
Velendren ‘Crow Master’ Wells
Skill 11 Stamina 16 Luck 7
Velendren is a fierce swordsman who trained under the tutelage of an even greater fighter. Years before, while practicing swordplay, his master left him to investigate a nearby disturbance. It was then that the crows started appearing. At first, Velendren thought it was a sign of impending doom but soon realized that they were trying to guide him. So he followed and arrived on the moors days later where he found his master’s corpse, having mysteriously died without a single wound on his body. Seeing the crows still circling above him, the locals immediately became suspicious, though none dared to openly accuse the swordsman of his master’s death. He decided to leave the area to avoid confrontation, heading west as the crows flew. Perhaps one day the ‘Crow Master’ will be able to make a better reputation for himself.
Ansan Jalac
Skill 8 Stamina 23 Luck 12
For as long as he can remember, Ansan sought to become a great warrior. In grubby inns and seedy taverns he could listen for hours to the many tales told by adventurers, usually after he had passed them a drink or three. But he didn’t just listen; he learned from their experiences and took inspiration from them. Now Ansan seeks real adventure and despite his somewhat clumsy nature, he trusts his great strength and knowledge to pull him through the most dangerous encounters. Only recently he hired his services to a travelling trader in the bid to chance upon a more challenging assignment. If luck is on his side, which it often is, it won’t be long before he gets the opportunity to join the ranks of the heroes that inspired him.
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Post by linflas on Aug 9, 2020 8:50:31 GMT
This is marvelous, thanks !
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,677
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Aug 9, 2020 10:16:38 GMT
linflasCould you tell me the order in which you visited the 5 main locations? Spoiler hide if necessary.
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Post by linflas on Aug 9, 2020 11:53:32 GMT
Zengis, Fang, Stonebridge again, Wrapstone, Salamonis (Lost first time here because of possessing evil equipment). Didn't go to Blacksand as I had read section 21 by chance... Harder passages were Boulder Beasts...
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,677
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Aug 9, 2020 12:18:49 GMT
Zengis, Fang, Stonebridge again, Wrapstone, Salamonis (Lost first time here because of possessing evil equipment). Didn't go to Blacksand as I had read section 21 by chance... Harder passages were Boulder Beasts... Blacksand isn't as impractical as you might think, especially if you don't succeed in Warpstone. Otherwise, you went with one of the better routes. I'm not absolutely certain but I think a different order of visit helps for each of the 3 pre-gen characters. You'll likely need different equipment for sure.
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Post by linflas on Aug 10, 2020 13:49:38 GMT
Question about Crystal : if she fought a group of Hill Trolls at ten, that wouldn't be logical to meet one of them on the road to Fang that recognizes her so many years later... or the Troll has perfect memory... or she's 11 !
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,677
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Aug 10, 2020 15:20:46 GMT
Question about Crystal : if she fought a group of Hill Trolls at ten, that wouldn't be logical to meet one of them on the road to Fang that recognizes her so many years later... or the Troll has perfect memory... or she's 11 ! Make her a little older maybe? 14 should do. Don't know. I got into a fight 17 years ago and I still remember the guy I broke the arm of. I'm sure he still remembers me too.
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Post by linflas on Aug 10, 2020 16:10:51 GMT
14 is ok, i keep that.
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Post by linflas on Sept 3, 2020 13:17:30 GMT
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Post by linflas on Sept 13, 2020 18:03:05 GMT
A critic of the translated version by Gauthier Wendling (he's a game/escape book published french writer). Warning : automatic translation
This is the twin adventure of the one told in FF14 Temple of Terror: while Malbordus was looking for dragons to put at the head of his army of Chaos, what were his Dark Elves allies up to? In terms of book object, it's quite impressive: 400 paragraphs but a doubled quantity of text compared to the original. 12 full-page illustrations (my prefered ones 93, 169, 179, 198 and 231) and several fillers. Pre-generated characters with a small personal story. An adventure with many paths and a strong replayability. What more could you ask for? Each town or area has its own micro-plot. When you arrive, you must try to make the right meeting, visit the right place that provides the clue, and then you unroll. Palace intrigue, financial or other kind. Of course, a Dark Elf or an accomplice will always be hidden somewhere behind a curtain, a suit or a back door. An Allansia map may be missing to help you find your way around during the second part of the game.
Mechanics: - 3 pre-generated characters, each with a strong point. - An adventure that does not necessarily require maximum statistics, but rather a management of the material and judicious choices. - Meals and gold are much in demand during the moves, there is a RPG simulationist aspect, reminiscent of Keith Martin's FFs. - With several possible routes, you have to get used to the idea that you will never have all the information, all the bonus objects. This implies being able to play again. I have obviously missed several situations and I have only located two out of three Chaos lieutenants.
The end is of course an epic battle against two opponents, with at least one object being strictly necessary to close the portal of Chaos.
A welcome tendency to show that this world continues to turn around us, around our little quest, since we meet several characters launched into personal quests, without having any influence on our adventure. They're just here to "make it real", like Mrs Aubain's thermometer (real effect, Barthes, etc). Examples : - an old and powerful Dark Elf sorcerer, who doesn't care about the scheming of his fellow men, who hunts the essence of great warriors. He warns us that we will see him again one day, when we will be more seasoned, that our essence will be more "stealable"... - a sailor chased by cultits because he has seen a cursed jewel in a distant temple (looks a bit like Conan Doyle). - a drunkard who remembers that he was done an injustice without remembering clearly what it was... We end up coming across an object that shows that he didn't make it all up, but we will never see him again.
All of this gives credit and depth to the story.
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Post by linflas on Sept 13, 2020 19:25:03 GMT
Second and long critic by Emmanuel Quaireau, quite a lot published gamebook/gamecomics writer. Sorry for automatic translation again ... It is a priori a collective project. But if I hadn't known that, I would never have guessed it. The fact that a single translator has worked on it inevitably helps to harmonise the whole and the style. But still, I suppose that the main author, Victor Cheng, has done a huge amount of work to make the overall work consistent. Or maybe he wrote 80% of the adventure all by himself. In any case, not surprising in the end that he is credited as main author. In its classic old-fashioned medfan style, this is a very good fan-gamebook. As an heir of the original Fighing Fantasy, it practically achieves the quality of the FF-like adventure of "gynogege" (which is not a tiny compliment). If it had been in the official collection, it would have been in the top 5 without question. Its real weakness is that it doesn't offer any devilishly original theme or scenario like the best FFs such as Creature, House, Sardath or Talisman. By imposing itself in Allansia's setting with numerous sections to please the fans, it was not going to go much off the track. But this classicism is compensated by all the other aspects one can expect from a good game book. Already the style is pleasant, beyond the ordinary for a FF. Linflas is to be thanked for this first. I can think of many sections where we talk to NPCs. Moreover, the adventure includes many "relational" moments where you argue rather than fight. In these moments, the attitudes of the characters are varied, equivocal, with small details on their expressions that give a lot of life to the characters. It's immersive. [note from Linflas : tiny sentences I've added to 'refresh' sometimes long monologues] Above all, to pursue the spirit of a book that is more adult than the old-fashioned ones, despite the weak plot, the situations shine by their consistency. Whether it's the army sent by the king that we find in the field, the various enemies employed by the dark elf lieutenants or the reason for the presence of some wandering monsters, the background behind our quest is lively, colourful and relevant. As for the charismatic enemies, they are not lacking. There are plenty of interesting moments in each of the key locations. Special mention to the local Grima-Wormtongue which requires a lot of skill to be confounded in front of the king. The epic fights are also very well performed, at the level of Keith Martin (each of the lieutenants, saving slaves, the arena, the final fight...). On the other hand, I'm somewhat less convinced by the successive random encounters over a long section, such as the fleeing from the thieves or the fight at the inn. On paper it is original and nice, but in practice, it's a bit of a mess. Perhaps it would have been necessary to put a little more tension by increasing the dangerousness of these sections (piece of cake if you have more than 7 Skill). As for the journeys between the five key points, they help to increase the realism of the story: a feeling of freedom, careful management of meals and gold, events that differ depending on the route. (This reminded me personally of my construction of Vargass Island in The Fifth Battalion, with these benefits but also the same pitfall: passages that are a little hollow and empty compared to the more intense encounters that await us at our destination, which stretch the already dense rhythm and adventure). As for the game system and the challenge, they are very well thought out and have had to be successfully tested. Many (almost too many) objects to collect, a lot of fighting too. But the whole thing is well balanced. The management of injuries and recoveries is fine and the fights balanced. Above all, success doesn't depend only on the luck with dice or in messed up choices, it depends on important decisions to be taken throughout the adventure. Except at the very end, I have never spotted a single " unfair " death and you really have the feeling that you build your success by gathering valuable information. That book is difficult because some unfortunate decisions can make us fail quickly, there are many fights and the adventure is long, just that. My experience is a bit special. By using the three pre-gen characters successively, I failed each time rather quickly without having the opportunity to meet even one of the lieutenants. On my 4th attempt, I randomly picked an SK10 ST17 LU7 character. But thanks to the experience gained, I finally found how to track down and kill the three lieutenants, even boosted myself with AS of 13, and the long final sequence in the forest and then with the dark elves seemed almost too easy to me. A slight blame on the playability because the fights until then were rather intense. But during a final choice after the big boss had been killed, I fell into a "PFA" (Bad Ending Section) rather hard to avoid just before 400. Frustrating! I didn't restart it all, let's say that I completed it in 5 tries which is very good for a big FF of this kind. It remains an old-fashioned LDVELH (You are the Hero Gamebook) with a strong gaming aspect. You don't have to be allergic to dice rolls, fights to be played or endless character sheet management. But in that genre, it is really a "grand cru" that would have deserved to be published alongside the other successes.
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,677
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Sept 13, 2020 19:28:13 GMT
(Gauthier Wendling review.)
Wow, that's a great review! Sounds like he had a lot of fun playing it. Please tell him I said 'thanks' for his positive review. I am grateful for these comments (good and bad). And it appears your illustrations are really helping to bring the adventure to life.
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,677
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Sept 13, 2020 19:44:53 GMT
(Emmanuel Quaireau review)
Very flattered by the praise. A great review for the team effort and covers a lot of area written by the many contributors. The negative comments are useful too and I do agree with some of them myself. Again I'm glad that the 'fun'ness has shone through and going by these comments, Linflas is to be thanked again for his stellar work in translation and art (and very quick work too) as well as making the adventure reach a larger audience. Please let all the playtesters and reviewers know that the authors say thank you for their kind words.
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Post by linflas on Sept 13, 2020 19:51:45 GMT
Done !
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,677
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Sept 26, 2020 12:27:14 GMT
From The Shadows is now available to download as a PDF on Facebook. Join the 'Fighting Fantasy (and other gamebooks)' group and find the adventure in the Files section.
Alternatively, you can email me (vic_scarlan@hotmail.com) for the adventure if you do not use Facebook.
Another huge thank you to all involved and Linflas for the many gorgeous pieces of art.
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