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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Mar 19, 2018 14:18:58 GMT
To begin with, a quote from Terry Pratchett
'J.R.R. Tolkien has become a sort of mountain, appearing in all subsequent fantasy in the way that Mt. Fuji appears so often in Japanese prints. Sometimes it’s big and up close. Sometimes it’s a shape on the horizon. Sometimes it’s not there at all, which means that the artist either has made a deliberate decision against the mountain, which is interesting in itself, or is in fact standing on Mt. Fuji.'
The fighting fantasy books and gamebooks in general are heavily influenced by ideas from Tolkien’s books. Some examples are clear and obvious ones but what about some of the more potentially obscure influences and plot devices? Worth a discussion?
For example, the Talisman of Death - a vital item is placed in the hands of a reluctant hero who is pursued by wraiths on horseback working for a powerful master. The quest is to journey to a place where the item can be put beyond reach.
For example, Masks of Mayhem - a bargain is made with a ghostly host whereby they come to the aid of the hero, who grants them freedom and rest.
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Post by lordomnibok on Mar 19, 2018 23:08:50 GMT
I agree with this. I will have to think on it, but I suspect that similarities to The Rings will be found in most ff books. Tolkien's work - particularly The Rings - was epic in its inspirational legacy. I'm not sure what ff would have looked like had Tolkien not toiled away for years at night, writing those books. I doubt we would have Waylander either, nor many other great fantasy books, were it not for Tolkien.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Mar 20, 2018 0:25:29 GMT
To begin with, a quote from Terry Pratchett
'J.R.R. Tolkien has become a sort of mountain, appearing in all subsequent fantasy in the way that Mt. Fuji appears so often in Japanese prints. Sometimes it’s big and up close. Sometimes it’s a shape on the horizon. Sometimes it’s not there at all, which means that the artist either has made a deliberate decision against the mountain, which is interesting in itself, or is in fact standing on Mt. Fuji.'
The fighting fantasy books and gamebooks in general are heavily influenced by ideas from Tolkien’s books. Some examples are clear and obvious ones but what about some of the more potentially obscure influences and plot devices? Worth a discussion?
For example, the Talisman of Death - a vital item is placed in the hands of a reluctant hero who is pursued by wraiths on horseback working for a powerful master. The quest is to journey to a place where the item can be put beyond reach.
For example, Masks of Mayhem - a bargain is made with a ghostly host whereby they come to the aid of the hero, who grants them freedom and rest.
Talisman of Death also features a dangerous dragon under a mountain of course. It's a good idea for a topic. Difficult to know which ideas to give credit for in some cases. Eg the hero in Fangs of Fury is carrying a tiny, crucial item to cast into flames to defeat an evil wizard, whilst also wearing jewellery (a bracelet) which might turn on them. Tolkien had his own influences of course. It was only a few years ago I realised that the One Ring was more or less lifted from the Ring of Gyges in Plato's Republic.
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,677
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Mar 20, 2018 16:40:30 GMT
I honestly never even noticed the similarities between Talimas of Death an LOTR.
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Mar 20, 2018 20:41:21 GMT
To begin with, a quote from Terry Pratchett
'J.R.R. Tolkien has become a sort of mountain, appearing in all subsequent fantasy in the way that Mt. Fuji appears so often in Japanese prints. Sometimes it’s big and up close. Sometimes it’s a shape on the horizon. Sometimes it’s not there at all, which means that the artist either has made a deliberate decision against the mountain, which is interesting in itself, or is in fact standing on Mt. Fuji.'
The fighting fantasy books and gamebooks in general are heavily influenced by ideas from Tolkien’s books. Some examples are clear and obvious ones but what about some of the more potentially obscure influences and plot devices? Worth a discussion?
For example, the Talisman of Death - a vital item is placed in the hands of a reluctant hero who is pursued by wraiths on horseback working for a powerful master. The quest is to journey to a place where the item can be put beyond reach.
For example, Masks of Mayhem - a bargain is made with a ghostly host whereby they come to the aid of the hero, who grants them freedom and rest.
Talisman of Death also features a dangerous dragon under a mountain of course. It's a good idea for a topic. Difficult to know which ideas to give credit for in some cases. Eg the hero in Fangs of Fury is carrying a tiny, crucial item to cast into flames to defeat an evil wizard, whilst also wearing jewellery (a bracelet) which might turn on them. Tolkien had his own influences of course. It was only a few years ago I realised that the One Ring was more or less lifted from the Ring of Gyges in Plato's Republic. Right! Tolkien wasn't writing in a vacuum. How many ideas (tropes?) are down to him and how many to North European or Greek mythology which he would have been aware of?
Dwarves toiling away underground and being good at making stuff must be from German/Scandinavian mythology and heroes and magic swords abound in legend.. But Elves being tall, essentially good-natured, excellent at archery and living in the woods; wizards in towers; orcs as the footsoldiers of evil - was that Tolkien?
And I will look up the Ring of Gyges - had never heard of it before. Thanks.
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Mar 20, 2018 20:51:59 GMT
I honestly never even noticed the similarities between Talimas of Death an LOTR.
Nor had I until a little while ago.
I think that might be for two reasons. One - The world of Orb, which feels like a sort of fully-formed and 'lived-in' world, might be masking the similarity somehow. Have you read The Way of the Tiger Book 2 - Assassin? Some similarity with Tolkien's work in that one too - I'm thinking of the barrow-wight and the adventure in the goblin mountain.
Two - I don't know about you but I read FF11 as a child, and you tend not to notice these sorts of things at that age unless it's really obvious. Having missed the similarity as a child maybe you get blinded to it as an adult?
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,437
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Mar 21, 2018 20:01:10 GMT
In Talisman, the talisman gets heavier the closer you get to being rid of it, exactly what Frodo experienced with the ring.
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Mar 24, 2018 12:05:42 GMT
Dead of Night - the Tower of the Baleful Eye in Dunningham, guarded by orcs, must surely be based on Sauron's Tower.
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Post by Pete Byrdie on Mar 28, 2018 8:07:46 GMT
Talisman of Death also features a dangerous dragon under a mountain of course. It's a good idea for a topic. Difficult to know which ideas to give credit for in some cases. Eg the hero in Fangs of Fury is carrying a tiny, crucial item to cast into flames to defeat an evil wizard, whilst also wearing jewellery (a bracelet) which might turn on them. Tolkien had his own influences of course. It was only a few years ago I realised that the One Ring was more or less lifted from the Ring of Gyges in Plato's Republic. Right! Tolkien wasn't writing in a vacuum. How many ideas (tropes?) are down to him and how many to North European or Greek mythology which he would have been aware of?
Dwarves toiling away underground and being good at making stuff must be from German/Scandinavian mythology and heroes and magic swords abound in legend.. But Elves being tall, essentially good-natured, excellent at archery and living in the woods; wizards in towers; orcs as the footsoldiers of evil - was that Tolkien?
And I will look up the Ring of Gyges - had never heard of it before. Thanks.
Elves were frequently described as virtually indistinguishable from humans, besides their beauty, in medieval british sources, which is also the origin of the term Middle Earth. Their skill in archery I expect is based upon the folklore of elf shot, which explained various afflictions as well as found stone arrowheads. Orcs are a little more difficult to analyse. 'Orcneas' appears in Beowulf and is generally translated as something like 'evil spirits', but its origin is disputed. It is from here that Tolkien claimed to have derived the orc. However, western Europe had their own orcs of which Tolkien would have been aware, 'wild man' characters, usually malignant, probably based on representations of the Latin god Orcus in early pageants. From these, the French derived the word 'ogre'. Tolkien's portrayal of orcs as essentially goblins is his own as far as I know, and it's perhaps the biggest influence on fantasy literature (and other media; just look at Netflix's Bright) he has had. That Dwarves toiled beneath the ground making fine objects can be deduced from various myths. Dwarves themselves, originally not represented as short, are associated with the dark elves, and they may not originally have been distinct. Whatever his influences in mythology, folklore and ancient literature, Tolkien undoubtedly popularised our perception of these races. For an interesting alternative, but surprisingly similar, approach, Poul Anderson's The Broken Sword is worth a read. Fictional world's such as Titan and Orb unashamedly copy Tolkien's Middle Earth, and we all accept an unspoken agreement that Tolkien is part of the literary heritage of the fantasy genre to the extent that it's fine to create a fictional world poplated with dwarves, elves and orcs, all of a basically Middle Earthish nature, without accusations of plagiarism or lack of imagination. Without Tolkien, there may not have been a 'fantasy genre' so clearly recognisable in our minds from which to derive gamebooks, and Fighting Fantasy, or whatever it might have been called, would probably have focused more on science fiction.
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Post by vastariner on Mar 30, 2018 13:49:06 GMT
I suppose the idea of a dwarf city inside a mountain a la Fangthane is not originally Tolkien? The main difference between FF and Tolkien being the treasure is on the outside in one...
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