How do you playtest?

[aggsol]

I have a few questions about playtesting.

Do expect a player to use the lowest rolled character? I fill route for a low stat PC with riddles, extra weapons and tests of luck so the reader has a chance to get to the end.

How many combat encounters are too much?  I have about 1 combat every 10 sections.

Do you calculate winning chances for balancing? Should the best case stats guarantee a win over the final boss? Is 80% wining over the final boss enough?

[philsadler]

"Do expect a player to use the lowest rolled character?"

No. But I expect an average character to get through (with stats of about 9/9/18). I then run the book a few times myself and try with those stats. If I can get through then the book is fine.




"I fill route for a low stat PC with riddles, extra weapons and tests of luck so the reader has a chance to get to the end."

Be careful of tests for anything, especially of the 'roll or die mechanic' of the worst of Ian Livingstone's books. I think the only reason you'd have those would be (A) instead of an 'Instant Death' or (B) to punish a player for a bad mistake or the lack of an item.




"How many combat encounters are too much? I have about 1 combat every 10 sections."

So, does that mean that if your book had 400 refs then it would have 40 fights? Even the combat-heavy FF books rarely had more than 20. Here's what I did for my own books:

Hellfire:
499 refs
14 Unavoidable fights
42 deaths

Riders of the Storm:
400 refs
16 unavoidable fights
37 deaths

House of Pain
499 refs
19 unavoidable fights
39 deaths

Deathtrap
499 refs
15 unavoidable fights
28 deaths

Personally I think that if the fights are interesting with a few nice mechanics then you should use them. If the fight is a bog-standard one then it might get boring for the reader. Try to mess with skill/stamina/luck/attack strength and so on in fights (not all of them but perhaps the majority as it keeps things interesting). Here's some ideas from a recent post of mine:

Enemy:

Hits for more than 2 stamina
Hits for only 1 stamina
Hits do more damage each round
Hits do more damage each time it hits you
Hits do more damage each time you hit it
Hits use a damage table like the Cockotrice
Hits kill you

Takes a skill point with each hit
Takes a skill point with each hit and adds it to its own
Takes an initial skill point with each hit
Takes a luck point with each hit
Takes an inital luck point with each hit
Takes an initial stamina point with each hit
Takes a stamina point with each hit and adds it to its own
Takes 2 stamina points and a luck/skill/initial point(s)

Roll a die when it hits you: 1-2: -2 stamina 3-4: - 1 luck 5-6: - 1 skill
Roll a die when it hits you: 1-3: -2 stamina 4-5: - 1 luck 6: - 1 skill

Gains a skill point with each hit
Gains a stamina point with each hit
Gains a stamina/skill point each round
Gains a point of skill each time it's hit but loses them when it hits you

It's very strong but only needs 1 hit to kill it
It's very weak but has a very high stamina score
It's skill score is equal to your skill/luck score
Its skill is 1 point higher than yours/1-2 points lower
It's stamina is equal to yours
It will win drawn attack rounds
It can't be hurt and so has no stamina score but you can still kill it outright by rolling 2 sixes.

Ruins a provision with each hit
Ruins an item with each hit



You:

You only damage it when you win an attack round if you roll odds/evens
You only damage it when you win an attack round if you roll 1-3/4-6
You only damage it when you win an attack round if you roll a double
You only damage it when you win an attack round if you roll a certain number or above
You only damage it when you win an attack round if you roll at least 1 more point higher than its Attack Strength, then 2, then 3 and so on

Test your luck when you win an attack round or you do it no damage/1 damage
Test your skill when you win an attack round or you do it no damage/1 damage
Test your stamina when you win an attack round or you do it no damage/1 damage
Test your luck/skill/stamina each time it hits you

Lose a skill/stamina/luck point per round

Must defeat it in a certain amount of rounds
Must defeat it in less/the same amount of rounds as your skill/luck points

Test your luck/skill/stamina each time you hit it



Both

You gain a skill point when you hit it but it gains that same skill point when it hits you



"Do you calculate winning chances for balancing? Should the best case stats guarantee a win over the final boss? Is 80% wining over the final boss enough?"

I don't calculate anything. If I can get through on average stats, then it's enough. As for the 80% chance on the boss; well, I think of the reader's done everything right and has collected the necessary items and so on, then the chance of beating the boss should be 100%.

[daredevil123]

Jun 25, 2018 19:26:19 GMT philsadler said:

Hellfire:
499 refs
14 Unavoidable fights
42 deaths

Riders of the Storm:
400 refs
16 unavoidable fights
37 deaths

House of Pain
499 refs
19 unavoidable fights
39 deaths

Deathtrap
499 refs
15 unavoidable fights
28 deaths

If you don't mind me asking, why not add an extra paragraph to your 499-para adventures? I find this a bit of an OCD trigger. 

[philsadler]

"If you don't mind me asking, why not add an extra paragraph to your 499-para adventures? I find this a bit of an OCD trigger."

Because I feel that almost every single FF book ever written (apart from Crown of Kings, Howl of the Werewolf and Starship Travler) had 400-something refs. So, if I go over 499 then it becomes 500-something and that's not in keeping with the 'true' FF canon.

[aggsol]

Jun 25, 2018 19:26:19 GMT philsadler said:

"I fill route for a low stat PC with riddles, extra weapons and tests of luck so the reader has a chance to get to the end."

Be careful of tests for anything, especially of the 'roll or die mechanic' of the worst of Ian Livingstone's books. I think the only reason you'd have those would be (A) instead of an 'Instant Death' or (B) to punish a player for a bad mistake or the lack of an item.

"How many combat encounters are too much? I have about 1 combat every 10 sections."

So, does that mean that if your book had 400 refs then it would have 40 fights? Even the combat-heavy FF books rarely had more than 20. Here's what I did for my own books:

"Do you calculate winning chances for balancing? Should the best case stats guarantee a win over the final boss? Is 80% wining over the final boss enough?"

I don't calculate anything. If I can get through on average stats, then it's enough. As for the 80% chance on the boss; well, I think of the reader's done everything right and has collected the necessary items and so on, then the chance of beating the boss should be 100%.

That makes sense! I use the tests to allow an easy way out or non combat solutions to progress. I don't do roll or die, I find that stupid. I want the reader to die or the adventure to end by their own mistakes. Do you count battle sections also as deaths/ends? I have "deaths" were the player does not die but the adventure is over. I assume you count them as deaths too?

I should have added that this is my very first attempt to write an adventure and that I set a limit of 50 sections. (I read on the old FF website that they recommend 25 sections for a first amateur adventure) I had trouble plotting and organizing the activities. Most of the times the set pieces I wrote were nonsensical or would straight derail the plot. Now that it is for the first time in a playable state with 38 sections and the final boss/location missing I started playtesting. I find 5 battles in 50 sections ok, as it is short and dense adventure.

[aggsol]

Jun 26, 2018 5:35:25 GMT philsadler said:

"If you don't mind me asking, why not add an extra paragraph to your 499-para adventures? I find this a bit of an OCD trigger."

Because I feel that almost every single FF book ever written (apart from Crown of Kings, Howl of the Werewolf and Starship Travler) had 400-something refs. So, if I go over 499 then it becomes 500-something and that's not in keeping with the 'true' FF canon.

Hahahah, that is also kinda OCD As I don't have that much free time, which of your adventures would you consider best? I would like to play it  to get a feel how other people do it and how they write.

[philsadler]

Jun 26, 2018 6:41:21 GMT aggsol said:

Jun 26, 2018 5:35:25 GMT philsadler said:

which of your adventures would you consider best?

I think that House of Pain is the best: fightingfantazine.proboards.com/thread/444/house-pain-sequel

But it is violent and difficult which may not suit everyone.

[philsadler]

Jun 26, 2018 6:38:24 GMT aggsol said:

Jun 25, 2018 19:26:19 GMT philsadler said:

"Do you count battle sections also as deaths/ends?"

No, I don't.

" I have "deaths" were the player does not die but the adventure is over. I assume you count them as deaths too?"

Yes, I do. Any situation where the player cannot continue should be considered a 'death'.

[thealmightymudworm]

Sidenote: I'm quite struck by the fact that you've been thinking about what font your adventure should be in when it's your first effort of no more than 50 refs. I wonder if as much thought went into the font used for any of the recent FF books published.

---

As to what I do, all my mini adventures so far would give at least some kind of chance to a player on min stats if they were playing with a walkthrough. That's just me though – possibly I'm a bad loser and would much rather have a book that some might deem statistically too easy than be banging up against an unbalanced foe again and again.* The exact stats you should need to have a decent chance in an adventure are a matter of taste – just don't get fixated on ensuring that it's tough even for someone on 12/24/12 because that is guaranteed to make it less fun for most.

It is a problem that there's such a gulf in power between min and max stats in the standard rules. At least one of the Fantazine minis restricted the range of possible Skill scores to be 8-11 which makes some sense.

There are a bunch of other possibilities for dealing with it as you know. You can have an easy route and a tough route (as in eg Sword of the Samurai) or have 'good' endings which are not as exacting as the best ending. Or 'rewards for failure' (eg losing in your swordfight with Cyrano in Demons of the Deep gains you 2 Skill points whereas winning only gains you 1) or even the chance to re-roll mid-adventure (eg the merman baths, again in Demons). Any of those might add to an adventure, but none are necessary to make a good one and might also be difficult to insert into a <50 section one.

Anyway, I wouldn't bother actually calculating stats – if you playtest it honestly (roll up a couple of times) you'll get a feeling of whether it's unfair. I'm sure you'll get things right for the low-joes.

---

As to the number of fights, obviously it matters quite a lot whether they're compulsory, and then the frequency and total number both matter (talking across a variety of book lengths).
If your adventure has 5 compulsory fights in 50 refs, that's probably OK despite the high frequency (40 across 400 would be mad) if they're not too exacting but it would be near the upper limit. Six or seven would just be too many. Like Phil I'm always tempted to mix-up the rules a bit in at least one or two of them.

I haven't written anything as long as Phil, but here are my stats anyway:
Creature of Hangover
47 refs
3 fights, none compulsory
4 deaths

Hovel of the Vampire
37 refs
6 fights, 1 compulsory
4 deaths

Festivities of Fury
62 refs
7 fights, 3 needed for a win, 4 for the best win
4 deaths

Murderous Mire
167 refs
13 fights, minimum of 1 on one route and 2 on the other I think, though you'd need quite specific spell use to avoid more.
16 deaths

*(Mostly because in general I think that while rolling dice for combat in an FF book adds a dimension and a bit of excitement, dying in combat is quite tedious. It's not like a computer game where battling against a boss 20x before defeating him feels worth it because there's physical skill and/or well-developed tactics involved.)

[aggsol]

I felt that having not enough combat scene would make the adventure more like collecting items and making the right choice. I don't every enemy to be a deadly encounter but a distraction, a change of flow. I have encounters that can be approached differently depending on items, so the the actual combat are on different sections. Do you count sections with combat or actual encounters?

I drew a graph of the story and it looked nice and the combats were nicely distributed so I feel like I am on the right track. I will keep you posted.

[thealmightymudworm]

Jun 30, 2018 21:05:16 GMT aggsol said:

I felt that having not enough combat scene would make the adventure more like collecting items and making the right choice. I don't every enemy to be a deadly encounter but a distraction, a change of flow. I have encounters that can be approached differently depending on items, so the the actual combat are on different sections. Do you count sections with combat or actual encounters?

I drew a graph of the story and it looked nice and the combats were nicely distributed so I feel like I am on the right track. I will keep you posted.

Good question... the numbers I've listed are for opponents (except in Hovel you might have to fight one opponent on two occasions, so that has to count as two fights). There are several occasions in Mire where eg you might change the stats of a combat with a spell so the versions of those fights might be spread over a few sections.

If you've got to the point of seeing how well your fights are distributed on a graph you probably have a good handle on what you're doing. I'll look forward to playing it.

[aggsol]

Sadly I am writing it in German because that is my native tongue. Maybe I will try to translate it at the very end. I will post it here anyway. But this is my overall first attempt to write a story. I felt I could pull it off, as a gamebook has many technical aspects too not just the plot and characters.