Traits of Ian Livingstone's Gamebooks

[bloodbeasthandler]

Some themes I feel I’ve picked out in Ian Livingstone's books. Feel free to agree or disagree or add to them.

In no particular order:

1. Overwhelmingly set in Allansia, developing the world. I felt that Caverns of the Snow Witch was the one which started tying the world together properly (preceded by the single reference to Deathtrap Dungeon in Island of the Lizard King and Sourbelly's sister in DD.).

2. Likes to tell a story, an epic quest.

3. Cameos - you often bump into Ian whether he's cowering in a cell with his severed hand nailed to a door or sat telling you about his sailing exploits....

4. Companions such as Redswift, Littlebig, Borri or... Mungo.

5. Difficult or even impossible fights against high SKILL opponents.

6. Lots of collecting items... sometimes absolute masses of what seems to be bric-a-brac but turn out to be essential.

7. There tends to be 'one true path' through the gamebook.

8. Presence of humour. Bay's Ball, the encounter with the two old women fighting over a wooden duck, the Warthog Book of Troll Records etc and others.

I suspect that the first paragraph of Port of Peril may have been Ian sending himself up a bit (see point 6) with that list of items - a bag of nails, a ball of string and a piece of chalk... 

Am I right to detect a certain dark humour in Deathtrap Dungeon where taking one emerald eye is fine, indeed necessary, but the other one is instant death?

I also think it amuses him to think that those readers who made one unlucky choice near the beginning of the book and so missed a vital item are then doomed to fail much later on.  

[dragonwarrior8]

Id like to add late stage random guessing games with a one-in-three chance of survival! Im guessing he does this to artificially increase the "length" (or total playtime) of the book?

[greenspine]

Situations where a single roll of a die can doom you.

The risk of being poisoned (the gas in the silver box and one variety of mushroom in Forest, the pill game in City, food and the bite of the Black Widow Spider in Deathtrap, rattlesnake bites in Island, Caverns and Freeway, watering holes in Caverns and Temple, envenomed spikes and more gas in Trial, multiple bottles in Eye...)

[philsadler]

1.) Roll a die: "Did you roll a number? Die. You didn't? Die anyway."
2.) Thrilling decisions: "Do you wish to open the door? The treasure chest? Or ignore them both knowing full well that they could contain something vital/deadly/or just be uselessly empty."
3.) Skill 11 opponents.
4.) Shopping list of useless bullshit.
5.) Rigid linear path.
6.) Stupid pointless Test Your Luck moments: "You trip over a pebble, Test Your Luck. If you are Lucky, nothing happens. If you are Unlucky, nothing happens anyway but you must lose another Luck point for being an idiot."
7.) Amazing descriptions: "You are in a corridor. You are in a long corridor. You are in a wide corridor. You are in a room-shaped corridor. You are not in a corridor."

[kieran]

Dec 19, 2018 4:25:03 GMT philsadler said:

1.) Roll a die: "Did you roll a number? Die. You didn't? Die anyway."
2.) Thrilling decisions: "Do you wish to open the door? The treasure chest? Or ignore them both knowing full well that they could contain something vital/deadly/or just be uselessly empty."
3.) Skill 11 opponents.
4.) Shopping list of useless bullshit.
5.) Rigid linear path.
6.) Stupid pointless Test Your Luck moments: "You trip over a pebble, Test Your Luck. If you are Lucky, nothing happens. If you are Unlucky, nothing happens anyway but you must lose another Luck point for being an idiot."
7.) Amazing descriptions: "You are in a corridor. You are in a long corridor. You are in a wide corridor. You are in a room-shaped corridor. You are not in a corridor."

Not a fan then Phil?

[daredevil123]

Dec 19, 2018 4:25:03 GMT philsadler said:

1.) Roll a die: "Did you roll a number? Die. You didn't? Die anyway."
2.) Thrilling decisions: "Do you wish to open the door? The treasure chest? Or ignore them both knowing full well that they could contain something vital/deadly/or just be uselessly empty."
3.) Skill 11 opponents.
4.) Shopping list of useless bullshit.
5.) Rigid linear path.
6.) Stupid pointless Test Your Luck moments: "You trip over a pebble, Test Your Luck. If you are Lucky, nothing happens. If you are Unlucky, nothing happens anyway but you must lose another Luck point for being an idiot."
7.) Amazing descriptions: "You are in a corridor. You are in a long corridor. You are in a wide corridor. You are in a room-shaped corridor. You are not in a corridor."

You're probably the only person who dislikes Livingstone more than I do. 

I'd also say his books tend to include Easter eggs and references to other books. The Port of Peril has connections to just about every other Allansia-set Livingstone book. Personally I find this pretty self-indulgent.

[philsadler]

Well I certainly love Deathtrap and I quite like COTSW and I even like IOTLK (a bit). In fact I would place Death behind only House of Hell in the 'greatest FF list' (even though it's still most of the things I said above!).

[linflas]

Self-indulgence may be interpreted as fan service, especially in his last Allansia books.

[dragonwarrior8]

Moderately suprised at some of the dislike for Livingstone although perhaps I shouldnt have been as Ive found all your points to be pretty valid. I guess I thought because of City of Thieves and Deathtrap Dungeon he was given a pass on everything else. Glad you are holding him to account! Even in the early going of the series he seems to cut and paste the same formula over and over into different settings with each book getting slowly worse. And this is the odd thing for me, youd think a gamebook writer would get BETTER as they go along, not worse. From learning what works, what doesnt etc. I havent read Blood of the Zombies yet (is it really THAT bad?) but Id have to give him at least SOME points for trying something new for a change. Even if it fails miserably. He really does do a great job of creating atmosphere I have to give him that.

Have to agree with daredevil about the self-indulgence though. Its kind of like he is saying "Remember those other great books I did? Sure you do because Im going to keep reminding you"

[bloodbeasthandler]

Dec 19, 2018 4:25:03 GMT philsadler said:

3.) Skill 11 opponents.

I've said something along the lines of this before but would it help if we were to get a ruling from the authors that paragraphs such as 'you find a magic sword, add 2 SKILL points' actually means add 2 to your attack strength or Initial SKILL?

[daredevil123]

Dec 19, 2018 17:02:52 GMT bloodbeasthandler said:

Dec 19, 2018 4:25:03 GMT philsadler said:

3.) Skill 11 opponents.

I've said something along the lines of this before but would it help if we were to get a ruling from the authors that paragraphs such as 'you find a magic sword, add 2 SKILL points' actually means add 2 to your attack strength or Initial SKILL?

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Another Livingstone trademark: infuriating SKILL/Attack Strength ambiguities. Although unfortunately that's not unique to him...

[dragonwarrior8]

I believe there is a +1 helmet in City of Thieves that stated "attack strength" bonus instead of skill. This would seem to indicate that Ian realized the difference. I always assumed it to be cheating to take a Skill bonus as an attack strength bonus but maybe that was just my interpretation.

[greenspine]

City is weird on the bonus front. No matter which street you take at the first crossroads, you have the opportunity of gaining an item with a combat-related bonus before the paths converge at the market. However, on two of those streets the bonus is to Attack Strength, while it's a Skill bonus on the third. It's as if, part of the way through writing the book, Ian Livingstone sustained a blow to the head which caused him to forget the phrase 'Attack Strength', and he never recovered that memory.

SPOILER: Click to show

No matter how many other authors' brains he ate.

[vastariner]

Being offered illogical options that of course turn out to be the right thing to do. You see some red powder. What do you do with it? Sniff it? Lick it? Sprinkle it? Light it? No, you dab it on your face. Yes, that's what always comes to mind.

The obvious choice, usually when it comes to information. "Do you want to go away, or do you want to listen to what the man has to say WHICH WILL BE THE SECRET TO HOW TO WIN THE BOOK?"

[sylas]

Dec 19, 2018 10:25:07 GMT daredevil123 said:

I'd also say his books tend to include Easter eggs and references to other books. The Port of Peril has connections to just about every other Allansia-set Livingstone book. Personally I find this pretty self-indulgent.

To be fair, most authors are guilty of this, Steve Jackson and Jon Green included. 

[sylas]

A trait that features in both Ian's and Steve's encounters are blind people or people with eye-patches.

[Paul Mc]

Needing really bizarre items to stop yourself being doomed. I can accept needing info, certain weapons, keys, jewels etc. but some items you needed were just weird.
You are suddenly trapped in a room... do you have a piece of cheese? If so you can throw it on the floor and a rat opens the door for you to escape. If you don't you are trapped game over.

[Wilf]

Early Livingstone books had multiple paths and created new environments. They were simply written, and a bugger to win on the true path, but they were also iconic and replayable.

From as early on as Caverns, though, they started to feed off previous titles (it's notable that three of the four direct sequels in the range are Livingstone's - Trial, Return, and Port), and by the time Crypt came around, they were joyless, linear, unbeatable item-hunts.

Certainly from Armies onwards, Livingstone's books have descended into self-referential parody, with barely any new ideas and increasingly broken gameplay, giving the impression he's churning them out for the money, with little enthusiasm or regard for quality.

The range has developed and expanded under other writers, and the FF format still has potential to improve and to push the envelope. This will never happen whilst Livingstone remains the books' principal author.

[Wilf]

Dec 19, 2018 15:47:10 GMT dragonwarrior8 said:

I havent read Blood of the Zombies yet (is it really THAT bad?) 

Blood Of The Zombies gets a lot of flak for being unwinnable on so few STAMINA points.

Whilst this is undoubtedly true, such criticism overlooks the fact that it's also the most linear book in the range, all the monsters are the same, the premise is plain stupid, the prose is poor, and the mechanics simply don't work (later paragraphs assume things which may not have happened in earlier ones).

Yes, it is really THAT bad.  It is boring, irritating, broken, and has no replay value.  It is easily Livingstone's worst book, and is right down there with Sky Lord among FF's biggest misfires.

On the plus side, the artwork is very good (which is unusual for a post-Puffin title)...

[Paul Mc]

Another Livingstone trait is the sentence "Your adventure ends here."
It's slightly annoying as the narrative should tell me that my adventure has ended badly without him having to tell me.
Steve Jackson however had some great ending sentences including You deserved to die!

[daredevil123]

Jan 14, 2019 19:52:21 GMT Paul Mc said:

Another Livingstone trait is the sentence "Your adventure ends here."
It's slightly annoying as the narrative should tell me that my adventure has ended badly without him having to tell me.
Steve Jackson however had some great ending sentences including You deserved to die!

That's a good point although he more often says "Your adventure is over." I find it funny when you get descriptions like "You are ripped to pieces by the zombies and die a horrible death. You will soon rise as one of them. Your adventure is over." Yeah, I'd worked that out... And yes, Steve Jackson's send-offs were far better.

[schlendrian]

Objects with numbers on them which have no significance in-universe but turn you to paragraphs later on.

Characters which appear again in later books (including yourself - Trial and Armies)

[bloodbeasthandler]

He likes rhymes. one two three turn and flee [Crypt of the Sorceror], the song/rhyme said by the man with the mushroom in Return to Firetop Mountain, Bartholomew Bart's bridge warning (Port of Peril), Skeleton's Riddle in Trial of Champions. The words of the spirit girl in the beam of light (Deathtrap Dungeon). Probably more examples ….  

[kieran]

Jun 15, 2019 11:55:14 GMT bloodbeasthandler said:

He likes rhymes. one two three turn and flee [Crypt of the Sorceror], the song/rhyme said by the man with the mushroom in Return to Firetop Mountain, Bartholomew Bart's bridge warning (Port of Peril), Skeleton's Riddle in Trial of Champions. The words of the spirit girl in the beam of light (Deathtrap Dungeon). Probably more examples ….  

Trial of Champions also has that "One is on and two is gone" one.

[bloodbeasthandler]

Dec 19, 2018 0:31:59 GMT greenspine said:

The risk of being poisoned (the gas in the silver box and one variety of mushroom in Forest, the pill game in City, food and the bite of the Black Widow Spider in Deathtrap, rattlesnake bites in Island, Caverns and Freeway, watering holes in Caverns and Temple, envenomed spikes and more gas in Trial, multiple bottles in Eye...)

Yes - poison. Which reminded me he seems to like giving you the option of eating mushrooms and fungi quite a lot.

I think you are more likely than not to encounter a prisoner of some sort – old man in the cell in FF1, goblin in ogre’s cage FF3, prisoner fleeing guards FF5, prisoner with hand nailed to door FF6, prisoners galore FF7, (dwarf in pit in FF9 counts?), Sinclair hostage in FF13, (is the imp in the bottle in FF21 a prisoner or is that just a trap?), dwarf prisoners of hobgoblins and men in cages FF36, Zoot Zimmer FF50, Nicodemus in Azzur’s dungeons Port of Peril.

Not sure or can’t remember about FF14, FF26 and Eye of the Dragon so it’s not a 100% guaranteed in his books.

[greenspine]

Littlepestbig is a prisoner when you find him in Eye of the Dragon.

[Wilf]

Does Jella count in FF26? If the imp in a bottle in FF21 counts, then the sprite in the glass globe in the desert certainly counts for FF14.

[Wilf]

Livingstone doesn't have the monopoly on rhymes: Steve Jackson UK uses them quite a bit in Sorcery! 1&2 (blind beggar with key, Vancass, the well, getting advice about the Ram from the Sham, Courga's shrine, the North Gate spell). Though I can't think of too many in the main range.

This doesn't take away from their being a trait of Livingstone's books, of course.

[zoove]

Hey all. I'm new to the boards and via the wonder of eBay am currently replaying a lot of these books that I absolutely loved as a kid. Currently on COTSW and gotta say, as a kid, I loved it, and I still do, but the Ian Livingstone trait of over reliance on testing luck/ prevalence of 9+ skill opponents is infuriating. As a grown up, I'm playing without cheating and as such am finding it almost impossible to complete "fairly".

I lucked out with great skill and stamina scores but a terrible luck score of 7...and the whole reduce by a point every time you test it (which seems like every other paragraph) had me at zero before long. There's a section that actually puts you in a luck testing loop that you can't get out of and die pretty quickly (prism guy who projects illusions of himself).

Still, God, I'm having fun with these. I have a complete set of Sorcery! winging their way to me in the post and I can't wait to play them as it's probably been 30 years easily since I first set off on a trek across the Shamutanti Hills....

[kieran]

Jul 3, 2019 11:57:06 GMT zoove said:

There's a section that actually puts you in a luck testing loop that you can't get out of and die pretty quickly (prism guy who projects illusions of himself).

That is actually avoidable, but yes the book is very tough on low stats. I think it's quite acceptable to cheat when rolling your initial stats when playing any of Ian's books after City of Thieves.