Traits of Ian Livingstone's Gamebooks

[zoove]

Funny you say that, Kieran. I was just thinking the very same thing last night. Probably fair enough to give yourself high initial scores and then play the rest without cheating.

Question that may be off topic... when you've been killed, do you guys begin the book over? Or "re-spawn" from where you were killed?

I was thinking to re-roll initial scores and start again but feels like it would get tedious fast.

[a moderator]

With a lot of FF books, 're-spawning' will get you nowhere most of the time, because success turns out to be impossible without an item/secret/whatever that you could only have acquired by making a different decision at an earlier stage of the adventure.

I suppose if you know the 'true path' and have been following it carefully only to fall foul of an unlucky roll (a certain witch trial in Spellbreaker comes to mind), the temptation to just retake the roll could be strong, but until you know the book well, 'respawning' can just lead to digging your character's grave all the deeper.

[lordomnibok]

I would say Greenspine’s advice is pretty spot on. Respawning could often cause more trouble than good. With some of the books, restarting and exploring different routes can feel like reading a whole new adventure. But there are a few linear entries that can test one’s resolve in this matter.

[zoove]

That's great advice, thanks. I'm not in a hurry for it be over given I'm enjoying it so much, so it's worth going back to the start and exploring different options.

It's funny how difficult these books are to complete when you follow the rules. I must've been a rampant cheater as a kid.

[babbagefart]

It's interesting how opinions on Livingstone's writing methods and designs change with my own age.

When I started reading these books in the mid-eighties I liked his style more than other writers because they were easier to read and for my young brain to follow the rules and story. Titles like Creature of Havoc were too much for me to become fully immersed in until I was a bit older. Then I started to enjoy other writers more and Livingstone started to feel childish and his titles frustrating.

When Return to Firetop Mountain came out in 1992 I was fourteen and remember being really disappointed with it. Perhaps I was too old for these books now. I hadn't read one in a couple of years and on this evidence they were beginning to feel tired.

Now as an adult I can see that it was just that Livingstone's methods never developed much. He had a style and he stuck with it and continues to do so. Jackson always tried to push the boundaries of what a gamebook could be with each new title; Green constantly tried to keep things interesting; Martin tried different styles also. Not all of these authors' works succeeded but you can't accuse them of finding a safe method and milking it. The same cannot be said for Livingstone and sometimes it does feel like he's doing it only for the money. Some references smell of product placement.

You know what though? When I started looking into these books again for the first time in a couple of decades it was more Ian's books that gave me the pangs of nostalgia. Crypt may suck as a game but as a boy I loved going on epic adventures and that book was one of only a few that ever felt epic while reading. Allansia was my favourite continent as it was the most fleshed out and I loved how the books felt connected.

The new books are nothing special. We all know that. Nevertheless, my copy of 'Assassins of Allansia' is winging its way to me as I type. I bought his last one and I'll buy the next.

Recent releases have taught me to keep expectations low, and they are, but I'm sure that Livingstone's new title will send the young lad still in me and keen on adventure on another dangerous mission through lands and cities we've all been to before while raising a few smiles and more than a little frustration along the way.

That's worth a few bucks on its own.

[dragonwarrior8]

Well, personally Id like to think we could shoot for better then just hoping a new book doesnt suck. I truly believe the series could be great again (although the time for aiming it at kids has passed I think) but as others on the boards have pointed out, as long as Ian is the main author this probably aint gonna happen.

[thealmightymudworm]

Sept 11, 2019 18:18:39 GMT dragonwarrior8 said:

Well, personally Id like to think we could shoot for better then just hoping a new book doesnt suck. I truly believe the series could be great again (although the time for aiming it at kids has passed I think) but as others on the boards have pointed out, as long as Ian is the main author this probably aint gonna happen.

I don't think the bolded bit is true – at least not if you mean that the readers of these new FF books are exclusively nostalgic guys in their 40s. It's difficult (for me at least) to determine how many kids around 8-18yo are playing them beyond noticing eg Gates of Death being CBBC book of the month last year (and seemingly received with more enthusiasm than it was on here).

If you mean that FF books are getting a special boost atm because children of the '80s are pressing them on their own sons (and hopefully daughters) then that's undoubtedly true. Also, obviously, they will only sell a fraction of what they did in the '80s. But there's no reason to assume that gamebooks in general and FF in particular have to be in terminal decline.

[dragonwarrior8]

Well, I mean what would you estimate the average age of gamebook readers is? I wouldnt say its exclusively adults as there are always exceptions but I would wager the vast majority of gamebook fans today are over 30. I agree its difficult to determine so maybe you are correct, but based on some of the pictures Ive seen from FF3 there sure didnt look like there was anyone younger than 30 there. It was rows and rows of bald heads. lol. Maybe someone who was actually there saw different though and maybe due to the nature of the event there was some kind of sampling bias at play.

I also dont think if they were aimed at adults would mean they are necessarily in terminal decline. The board game industry, while not nearly as popular as it once was thanks to video games, doesnt seem to be in decline. And while there are obviously still lots of board games aimed at kids there sure seem to be more board games aimed at adults then at any other time I can remember.

I do worry about the increase of gamebooks released only in digital form. It would sadden me greatly if we got to the point where we no longer had physical books to play as I dont feel the experience is anywhere near the same thing. So yes, I do worry about the decline of the printed books.

[vagsancho]

Gates of Death being CBBC book of the month[/a] last year (and seemingly received with more enthusiasm than it was on here).

People in this forum are too much critic.
I have seen a lot of critics here to CRYPT OF THE SORCERER , when the book is just a brilliant pearl, a flawless diamond, a spectacular masterpiece, an extremely complete and beyond all other, fantastic and amazing gamebook.

[a moderator]

Call me picky if you will, but I prefer gamebooks that are actually playable.

[philsadler]

Sept 13, 2019 19:45:26 GMT a moderator said:

Call me picky if you will, but I prefer gamebooks that are actually playable.

Yeah. And aren't a massive kick in the nuts.

[daredevil123]

vagsancho, could you explain why Crypt of the Sorcerer is "a spectacular masterpiece" in terms of game design? Or is it that your divine master Razaak makes up for the ludicrous difficulty?

[bloodbeasthandler]

Sept 8, 2019 18:56:58 GMT babbagefart said:

It's interesting how opinions on Livingstone's writing methods and designs change with my own age.

When I started reading these books in the mid-eighties I liked his style more than other writers because they were easier to read and for my young brain to follow the rules and story. Titles like Creature of Havoc were too much for me to become fully immersed in until I was a bit older. Then I started to enjoy other writers more and Livingstone started to feel childish and his titles frustrating.

When Return to Firetop Mountain came out in 1992 I was fourteen and remember being really disappointed with it. Perhaps I was too old for these books now. I hadn't read one in a couple of years and on this evidence they were beginning to feel tired.

Now as an adult I can see that it was just that Livingstone's methods never developed much. He had a style and he stuck with it and continues to do so. Jackson always tried to push the boundaries of what a gamebook could be with each new title; Green constantly tried to keep things interesting; Martin tried different styles also. Not all of these authors' works succeeded but you can't accuse them of finding a safe method and milking it. The same cannot be said for Livingstone and sometimes it does feel like he's doing it only for the money. Some references smell of product placement.

You know what though? When I started looking into these books again for the first time in a couple of decades it was more Ian's books that gave me the pangs of nostalgia. Crypt may suck as a game but as a boy I loved going on epic adventures and that book was one of only a few that ever felt epic while reading. Allansia was my favourite continent as it was the most fleshed out and I loved how the books felt connected.

The new books are nothing special. We all know that. Nevertheless, my copy of 'Assassins of Allansia' is winging its way to me as I type. I bought his last one and I'll buy the next.

Recent releases have taught me to keep expectations low, and they are, but I'm sure that Livingstone's new title will send the young lad still in me and keen on adventure on another dangerous mission through lands and cities we've all been to before while raising a few smiles and more than a little frustration along the way.

That's worth a few bucks on its own.

Agree with a great deal of what you’ve written.

You wrote: Now as an adult I can see that it was just that Livingstone's methods never developed much.

This could be explained because (I seem to remember hearing him saying) he didn’t read other gamebooks, neither Lone Wolf, Way of the Tiger, or even other FF. On the plus side, I suppose he cannot be accused of plagiarising other gamebooks!

Crypt of the Sorceror was always one of my favourites and still is, for the same reasons you have given. It gets stick because it wasn’t properly play-tested to the extent that it is impossible to complete without cheating. If it gets re-released they should tweak it, that’s all. Attack-strength bonuses and nerfing Razaak could do it.

[thealmightymudworm]

Sept 12, 2019 13:10:43 GMT dragonwarrior8 said:

Well, I mean what would you estimate the average age of gamebook readers is? I wouldnt say its exclusively adults as there are always exceptions but I would wager the vast majority of gamebook fans today are over 30. I agree its difficult to determine so maybe you are correct, but based on some of the pictures Ive seen from FF3 there sure didnt look like there was anyone younger than 30 there. It was rows and rows of bald heads. lol. Maybe someone who was actually there saw different though and maybe due to the nature of the event there was some kind of sampling bias at play.

I also dont think if they were aimed at adults would mean they are necessarily in terminal decline. The board game industry, while not nearly as popular as it once was thanks to video games, doesnt seem to be in decline. And while there are obviously still lots of board games aimed at kids there sure seem to be more board games aimed at adults then at any other time I can remember.

I do worry about the increase of gamebooks released only in digital form. It would sadden me greatly if we got to the point where we no longer had physical books to play as I dont feel the experience is anywhere near the same thing. So yes, I do worry about the decline of the printed books.

I wouldn't like to estimate – it would be a guess. I'm not totally confident it isn't mostly adults but it seems odd to predict that books kept in the children's section are being sold mostly to nostalgic grown-ups. These Amazon stats for The Warlock of Firetop Mountain surely can't be explained solely by the ageing FF fanbase – there aren't enough of us, even with all the blogs and the FB pages. Besides which, how many old FF fans are buying new copies of TWoFM (at least for themselves) when they could have replaced any lost Puffin editions with Wizard ones ages ago?



The Warlock of Firetop Mountain

Fighting Fantasy Fest is a different matter entirely! The tickets weren't cheap, some of those there to sign stuff such as Peter Darvill-Evans would mean nothing to anyone born this century and from what I can see of it there weren't a lot of dress-up and run around type activities. It wasn't aimed at young new readers at all.

As for boardgames and gamebooks in general, I don't feel I can comment on either industry with any confidence. I would have though that the great majority of boardgames were designed for family play – ie allowing for at least some children in the mix. Although there are a variety of games aimed primarily at adults: Risk, Settlers of Catan, etc and obviously ancient ones like chess, if children under 15 overnight decided that they were never going to play boardgames then the industry would be crippled. Then it would continue to dwindle because kids who haven't grown up playing boardgames are unlikely to buy Scythe or whatever.

I'd have thought both points apply even more strongly to gamebooks. I'm not really aware of all that many gamebooks aimed exclusively at adults. Obviously there must be a decent number – I've just been playing Can You Brexit? which only someone exceptionally dimwitted or cruel would put in the kids section of a bookshop, and just yesterday someone in another forum mentioned Life's Lottery by Kim Newman. But in general I just can't imagine many people get into gamebooks at the age of say 28 if they didn't play any growing up. It's worth taking any opportunity to draw youngsters' attention to gamebooks, though I draw the line at "How do you do fellow kids"-ing all over Snaptok and Tikchat and things like that.

[daredevil123]

Sept 12, 2019 13:10:43 GMT dragonwarrior8 said:

Well, I mean what would you estimate the average age of gamebook readers is? I wouldnt say its exclusively adults as there are always exceptions but I would wager the vast majority of gamebook fans today are over 30. I agree its difficult to determine so maybe you are correct, but based on some of the pictures Ive seen from FF3 there sure didnt look like there was anyone younger than 30 there. It was rows and rows of bald heads. lol. Maybe someone who was actually there saw different though and maybe due to the nature of the event there was some kind of sampling bias at play.

I also dont think if they were aimed at adults would mean they are necessarily in terminal decline. The board game industry, while not nearly as popular as it once was thanks to video games, doesnt seem to be in decline. And while there are obviously still lots of board games aimed at kids there sure seem to be more board games aimed at adults then at any other time I can remember.

I do worry about the increase of gamebooks released only in digital form. It would sadden me greatly if we got to the point where we no longer had physical books to play as I dont feel the experience is anywhere near the same thing. So yes, I do worry about the decline of the printed books.

If it makes you feel any better, I am well under 30!

[dragonwarrior8]

Sept 15, 2019 17:48:45 GMT thealmightymudworm said:

Sept 12, 2019 13:10:43 GMT dragonwarrior8 said:

Well, I mean what would you estimate the average age of gamebook readers is? I wouldnt say its exclusively adults as there are always exceptions but I would wager the vast majority of gamebook fans today are over 30. I agree its difficult to determine so maybe you are correct, but based on some of the pictures Ive seen from FF3 there sure didnt look like there was anyone younger than 30 there. It was rows and rows of bald heads. lol. Maybe someone who was actually there saw different though and maybe due to the nature of the event there was some kind of sampling bias at play.

I also dont think if they were aimed at adults would mean they are necessarily in terminal decline. The board game industry, while not nearly as popular as it once was thanks to video games, doesnt seem to be in decline. And while there are obviously still lots of board games aimed at kids there sure seem to be more board games aimed at adults then at any other time I can remember.

I do worry about the increase of gamebooks released only in digital form. It would sadden me greatly if we got to the point where we no longer had physical books to play as I dont feel the experience is anywhere near the same thing. So yes, I do worry about the decline of the printed books.

I wouldn't like to estimate – it would be a guess. I'm not totally confident it isn't mostly adults but it seems odd to predict that books kept in the children's section are being sold mostly to nostalgic grown-ups. These Amazon stats for The Warlock of Firetop Mountain surely can't be explained solely by the ageing FF fanbase – there aren't enough of us, even with all the blogs and the FB pages. Besides which, how many old FF fans are buying new copies of TWoFM (at least for themselves) when they could have replaced any lost Puffin editions with Wizard ones ages ago?



The Warlock of Firetop Mountain

Fighting Fantasy Fest is a different matter entirely! The tickets weren't cheap, some of those there to sign stuff such as Peter Darvill-Evans would mean nothing to anyone born this century and from what I can see of it there weren't a lot of dress-up and run around type activities. It wasn't aimed at young new readers at all.

As for boardgames and gamebooks in general, I don't feel I can comment on either industry with any confidence. I would have though that the great majority of boardgames were designed for family play – ie allowing for at least some children in the mix. Although there are a variety of games aimed primarily at adults: Risk, Settlers of Catan, etc and obviously ancient ones like chess, if children under 15 overnight decided that they were never going to play boardgames then the industry would be crippled. Then it would continue to dwindle because kids who haven't grown up playing boardgames are unlikely to buy Scythe or whatever.

I'd have thought both points apply even more strongly to gamebooks. I'm not really aware of all that many gamebooks aimed exclusively at adults. Obviously there must be a decent number – I've just been playing Can You Brexit? which only someone exceptionally dimwitted or cruel would put in the kids section of a bookshop, and just yesterday someone in another forum mentioned Life's Lottery by Kim Newman. But in general I just can't imagine many people get into gamebooks at the age of say 28 if they didn't play any growing up. It's worth taking any opportunity to draw youngsters' attention to gamebooks, though I draw the line at "How do you do fellow kids"-ing all over Snaptok and Tikchat and things like that.

Im not sure how much you can draw from sales figures for childrens books though? Certainly for ones that have been around so long as many are no doubt bought without the childs input. TWoFM was obviously huge in the 80s which means people who grew up with it are now parents and many could be buying to try and pass their experience on to their children (which I believe is what you were alluding to?) Whether their children are interested in it is another matter. The popularity of this book in particular I think would skew this number. I think the figures for a more obscure when it was originally released (but still very good) FF such as Appointment With FEAR might be a better indicator.



Im sure there are those here who are around youngsters more than I, but I am around a fair number and can honestly say Ive never heard any asking their parents for an FF book (or rarely any book for that matter). With the proliferation in online gaming and smartphones this seems like it would become even increasingly more so.



I also for one couldnt care less about boardgames growing up (I was usually on my own which is why I was drawn to FF) but now I love them so I do certainly think it is possible to discover new hobbies in adulthood. This is all anecdotal of course as all I have to go by are my own experiences so maybe Im just an outlier.



For what its worth my original post was just an opinion and while I dont personally see it happening I do actually hope you are right. I would certainly like to see as many readers as possible become captivated by gamebooks whether they are kids, adults or even seniors.

[dragonwarrior8]

Sept 15, 2019 20:27:32 GMT daredevil123 said:

Sept 12, 2019 13:10:43 GMT dragonwarrior8 said:

Well, I mean what would you estimate the average age of gamebook readers is? I wouldnt say its exclusively adults as there are always exceptions but I would wager the vast majority of gamebook fans today are over 30. I agree its difficult to determine so maybe you are correct, but based on some of the pictures Ive seen from FF3 there sure didnt look like there was anyone younger than 30 there. It was rows and rows of bald heads. lol. Maybe someone who was actually there saw different though and maybe due to the nature of the event there was some kind of sampling bias at play.

I also dont think if they were aimed at adults would mean they are necessarily in terminal decline. The board game industry, while not nearly as popular as it once was thanks to video games, doesnt seem to be in decline. And while there are obviously still lots of board games aimed at kids there sure seem to be more board games aimed at adults then at any other time I can remember.

I do worry about the increase of gamebooks released only in digital form. It would sadden me greatly if we got to the point where we no longer had physical books to play as I dont feel the experience is anywhere near the same thing. So yes, I do worry about the decline of the printed books.

If it makes you feel any better, I am well under 30!

Actually it makes me feel old! lol! 

Although I am interested to know what got you turned onto gamebooks? 

[daredevil123]

Sept 16, 2019 1:27:16 GMT dragonwarrior8 said:

Sept 15, 2019 20:27:32 GMT daredevil123 said:

If it makes you feel any better, I am well under 30!

Actually it makes me feel old! lol! 

Although I am interested to know what got you turned onto gamebooks? 

My dad had some of the classic FF books (IE the first 10 or so) and introduced me to them when I was about 8 or 9. I've since become a bigger FF fan than he ever was and my interest increased significantly when I discovered this forum, although I've been pretty busy over the last year or so and haven't had as much time to actually sit down and play FF books as much as I'd like. I suspect many modern kids get introduced to gamebooks by their parents rather than discovering them independently, which may or may not be a good thing.

[schlendrian]

I know a school librarian who says that the CYOA books are still among the most read books in the library. There are no "real" gamebooks there though, so I'm unsure as to how much develops out of that.

[Pete]

As I've said earlier, gamebooks have been good at getting non-readers to take up reading.  Are parents buying them for their kids for this reason?  Or maybe the kids who read CYOA are moving on to these - should librarians be looking at getting some in?

[Pete Byrdie]

Sept 17, 2019 7:11:26 GMT Pete said:

As I've said earlier, gamebooks have been good at getting non-readers to take up reading.  Are parents buying them for their kids for this reason?  Or maybe the kids who read CYOA are moving on to these - should librarians be looking at getting some in?

I was slow to start reading, so when I showed an interest in FF my mother encouraged it. Having said that, I'm fairly sure I'd read Treasure Island by that point, and some other older, wordy adventure novels. I was slow to start reading but embraced it enthusiastically.

[thealmightymudworm]

This doesn't prove anything, but just as a follow-up to the question about whether kids are reading FF gamebooks:

(For those who can't see tweets on here:)

SPOILER: Click to show

Enthused GFC students are enjoying
@ian_livingstone
's Fighting Fantasy gamebook in English class.

Students are drawing inspiration as they are working towards creating their own fantasy stories.

@fightingfantasy


#gfc #gills #medway #kent #school #education #reading #fantasy

Not sure if I can link this back very convincingly to the thread topic, but they are reading an IL book and visibly not bothering with dice, which speaks to its traits somewhat. 

[dragonwarrior8]

I wonder why they dont package the books with dice? (and a pencil and some copies of adventure sheets for that matter). Seems like that might help.

[kieran]

Nov 20, 2019 0:21:04 GMT dragonwarrior8 said:

I wonder why they dont package the books with dice? (and a pencil and some copies of adventure sheets for that matter). Seems like that might help.

Adds to the cost I guess. Plus it makes it difficult for shops to shelve them.

[slloyd14]

After reading the latest IL book, I've come to another conclusion about Ian Livingstone.

Ian Livingstone hates your hands.

From sword blades coated in wax to cursed rings, to putting your hands in dark holes, Ian Livingstone seems to like abusing your hands.

There are a couple of exceptions in Forest of Doom and Shadow of the Giants and a mixed one in Island of the Lizard Kind, but there's usually a lot of potential for hand abuse. Didn't trial of the champions have a gauntlet of pain as well?

He also seems to hate crowns or people/beings who wear them. Fire Demons, Lich Queens, skeleton kings or his latest book (spoilers) have evil crowns or evil crown wearing beings.

There are other examples.