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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 13, 2013 23:17:12 GMT
From TUFFF... Okay, this one I made some interesting observation in comparison with my original french edition... but more on that later. First a quick review. I always loved Kharé. This one oozes atmosphere. The seedy town seems to breath, especially due to the amazing artwork by John Blanche. His streets, the architecture of all the crooked houses makes it seems so believable that I could just walk inside the picture and down the road without blinking twice. Well, you know, nearly. It's a hard book - doubtful that you'd be beating it on your first try - but not hair-pulling hard. It's mostly fair and finding the right way should only take a few tries. Making it to the end with the right rolls and stats is another matter, I guess, but still. I always thought the original cover was amazing. What a disturbing creature. It's right up there with the Bloodbeast for me. For the originality, for the way it's strike the imagination... The new cover for Wizard is okay. It's well done, plenty disgusting, with a right "sewer" feel. But it lacks the weirdness of the original, the balance of colours, the spookiness. The new Slime Eater is just a fat, bloated, Elvis wannabe. Now for my observations... My french edition, La cité des pièges (City of traps), got all it's illustrations on the right side this time (not mirrored), but looking at those, it's obvious that the illustrations in the more recent Wizard edition are way darker (contrary to Shamutanti where they were paler...) masking a lot of the fine details. Take the Mantis Man for instance. In my french edition you can see him clearly smile in a diabolical fashion... not so in the Wizard edition. His facial traits are almost completely obscures. Now... that's minor. Another minor thing but funny nonetheless: in the french edition there is a mistake when you fight the Slime Eater (him again!). In the original, he is Skill 7, Stamina 11. In my french edition, probably due to a printing error, he is Skill 7, Stamina 1. A real push-over! Even funnier in that context is the way you are ask if you'd rather use magic againt it than fight it. Anyone playing the french edition would just laugh at this notion!! Why waste a spell against the guy when I can just kick him in the balls and leave him dead? Now something far more interesting, that I have kept for last: While there are some illustrations missings from the french edition, the most important being the North Gate at the end, there is also one missing from the Wizard edition, that my french one's got! Now that is the first time that I ever notice something like this...
The illustration in question is for section 56 and is set in a gambling-type place, with people playing dice and other casino-style game.
Now, I can confirm that this illustration is missing from my Wizard edition, but what I'd like to know is if anyone of you can tell me if it's missing or not from an original Puffin edition. As I'm sure a few of you guys got that edition, it would be nice if you could look it up.
My guess is that it's only missing from the Wizard edition. Speak in extremes, it will save you time.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 13, 2013 23:17:53 GMT
From TUFFF... Great review Hynreck - I totally agree that this book oozes with atmosphere and is definitely one of my favs (perhaps my all time favourite). John Blanche's illustrations play a major part. And I would pay good money to see a Slime Eater kicked in the balls! The gambling halls illustration appears in the original Puffin edition, as does the Mantis Man's smile. I suppose that means that the fascinating names on the books behind Lortag are also obscured in the Wizard edition. I am guilty of having scanned that illustration at very high resolution to make out as many of the names as possible...
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 13, 2013 23:18:35 GMT
From TUFFF... Really enjoying your reviews Hynreck. The illustrations in all the Wizard books I have seem very dark. Sometimes it works - Deathtrap Dungeon looks even danker for instance. But missing out on the Mantis Man's evil smile is inexcusable!
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 13, 2013 23:19:41 GMT
From TUFFF... Thanks guys for the compliments. I'm happy and relieved to see that it's just a printing mistake by Wizard. Well, not happy about it, but it would have been weird to have a special illustration just for the French edition. It's not even a special one or anything...
And yeah, that printing problem is annoying; first Wizard's Shamutanti is too pale, now Kharé is too dark. Wonder how Seven Serpents is going to turn out. That's what's nice about having the originals at home: I have a way to make some comparisons. With later books, it won't be so. Speak in extremes, it will save you time.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 13, 2013 23:20:49 GMT
From TUFFF... Paltogue, you can still read a lot on the names on the books behind Lortag. Of course, maybe not all of them... Sad to be missing on details like that, truly... Speak in extremes, it will save you time.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 13, 2013 23:21:59 GMT
From TUFFF... It's bizarre that Shamutanti illo's are paler, because yes in general the contrast/brightness ratio is way off the mark in the Wizard prints as others have observed. In a particularly detailed illustration, like those found in Return to Firetop Mountain for instance, it really does ruin things because a lot of the shading and fine line-drawing is simply blacked over. Another excellent review. I too enjoy reading them very much! PS: I never noticed the illustration hadn't made it in Wizard. I wonder if there are any more missing from the Sorcery! Series? ~ Vae Victis! ~
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 13, 2013 23:22:45 GMT
From TUFFF... Thanks again, very nice. In any case that's the only illustration that I noticed so far. I'll do the same process for the next 2 books. Eventually though, I'll run out of FF to compare to, but that's only a problem with a few Wizard editions.
It's a bit lame, though. You'd think after all those years, they would get it right. Speak in extremes, it will save you time.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 13, 2013 23:24:22 GMT
From TUFFF... ***SPOILERS AHEAD*** I usually prefer adventures which either involve exploring large buildings (Citadel of Chaos, Vault of the Vampire, etc.) or settlements (Moonrunner, Dead of Night, etc.) Such adventures, on the whole, are a lot more fun to explore and are usually more diverse in the encounters experienced. Kharé - Cityport of Traps is a prime example of how an intricate and atmospheric town/city setting will have its readers eager to see what is in the next building. Although the similar City of Thieves was brilliant, it is surpassed by Kharé easily. Some of my personal favourite moments include meeting the unnervingly still mantis man (especially if you send a goblin to investigate first); choosing what to do at the festival (I love the rather bizarre consequence of joining in the dance) and...erm... fighting a paintbrush (!) The Cabinet of Fortune is a cute parody of the claw machines found in arcades and is one of the most entertaining ways of obtaining random equipment in FF. The boisterous atmosphere of the Wayfarer's Rest, complete with its West Country innkeeper ("We'll feed yer t'the gills") is a bit different to the sultry menace of taverns in previous books. The way that you wake up strapped to that peculiar device is much more interesting than just having someone sneak into to either attack or steal from you. All these delights, not to mention the neat ritual in the Temple of Courga, the speaking fish with his single gold piece, the sprite versus pixie scrap and the feelings of paranoia which comes from visiting the parts of the city inhabited by Red-Eyes. I had a hard time here in selecting just a few encounters to detail if I was to avoid making this review even longer than usual. The Spell Book idea is one of Steve Jackson's best. It is hard at first to learn the spells, but the complexity is part of the fun. (I was surprisingly good as a child at not cheating and taking a peek during play throughs). Learning the spells is such a monumental task that there's no way that it would've worked for any stand-alone adventure. When playing Sorcery! series as a whole, common spells such the basic first six, POP, SIX and DOP, that it all took less effort to memorise than it appeared at first. Allowing the addition of extra paragraphs to accommodate the spell system was a wise move. In Kharé the spells are less frustrating to cast than many in The Shamutanti Hills were, largely due to having more of the items required. The spell effects themselves range from the frustrating (appropriately so though), such as casting SIX on the living corpse (435); the satisfying, such as blasting your cell bars with POP (504); to the surreal, such as slipping on a green-haired wig in the sewers to howl and moan at a Slime Eater (479). The last paragraph of this review is reserved for John Blanche worship. I've read comments here and there on the Net which show that this artist's work is adored by some fans and detested by others. I think that the detractors are those who like illustrations to have a strong sense of realism to them. I like the solid, realistic style of the like of Martin McKenna and Tony Hough too, but of course art isn't always about producing something akin to a photograph. John Blanche has, to my eye, the most idiosyncratic style of all the FF artists. It's all about the atmosphere, giving this fantasy world a feel that is distinct from the - supposedly - real one that the reader occupies. His use of shape and texture are immediately identifiable and have a strong fairytale quality to them. One sure sign that a creator of a fictional world has done their job well is when those who are admiring it wish - on some level - that they could climb inside and interact themselves. (Hynreck has hinted at this desire too, so I know that I'm not alone). The illustrations in Kharé are my favourites. Despite the inherent dangers, I always have desires to stroll past the bronze statue (89) to look in every single one of the windows that I pass. I also wish that I could climb inside the picture of the gnome and take a closer look at his clutter, which has been given so much detailed care by the artist. (Those who've read my review of Talisman of Death will know of my love for unusual artefacts). As with the gambling guy in Warlock, I want to be able to touch and read the books on the shelves of reference 336, especially as tantalising snippets of titles are given too. Climbing in and interacting - that's what's at the very core of Fighting Fantasy itself.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 13, 2013 23:27:45 GMT
From TUFFF... As mentioned on another thread I am playing through the Sorcery books for the first time. Well carrying on from Shamutanti (see other thread) I am now in Kharé. Here is how I got on... SPOILERS ahead...
I used the Svinn key to open the South Gate. I saw a small building with a man through the window and decided to investigate, but got locked in (welcome to the cityport of traps!). The old man said the guards would let us out in a couple of days, giving him plenty of time to explain that I would need to collect the 4 lines of verse to open the north city gates which were magically locked. Rather than wait for the guards I decided to bust out with my DOP spell. I then wandered along turning right, then entered the house of a Floating Squid Creature and stole his box of treasures. Carrying on I came to a festival and watched a wrestling match, featuring none other than 'Anvar the Barbarian' of LEGEND OF ZAGOR fame! Then I had a go at one of those grab-a-toy games, but featuring a small gremlin who selected the toy for you. I then wandered along until I came to a chapel, inside I answered the priest's riddle and got the first part of the verse to open the gate. Yay. Then it was late so I stopped at the inn to sleep. Zzzzzzz. Next day I woke up and discovered the innkeeper was a sadistic lunatic and had tied me to a guillotine device. Lucky I figured out how to escape. After that I crossed a bridge and enter a district of scary Red Eye people who overpowered me and slung me in prison. At this point I had to pray to Libra for help or face life imprisonment. Thanks to Libra I got out and legged it. Next I went to a gambling hall, on the way out I peeked inside the portal room and a bouncer threw me down a pit. I landed in the sewer below the city and was up to my neck in shit (literally). After some searching, and killing a slime beastie, I found the exit. Carrying on I saw a blind old man attacked by harpies, a scene I remembered from my Greek mythology. I killed the harpies and the old man was grateful and so told me another line of the verse to open the gate, except he had forgotten part of it so advised I visit the temple of Couga. I then came to the Couga Temple and went inside as suggested, where I obtained the missing word of the line. Finally I came to the north gate, unfortunately however I only had 2 clues out of 4 so couldn't open it. At this point I was told my quest had failed etc. Well 2 of 4 isn't a bad start. Hopefully next time I shall get a bit further.
My FF reviews: z3.invisionfree.com/Orc__Goblin_Warpath/index.php?showtopic=29374
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 13, 2013 23:28:26 GMT
From TUFFF... Legend of Zagor isn't set in the same world as Sorcery! Either Anvar somehow managed to move from one dimension to another, or these are two different characters with the same name.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 13, 2013 23:30:20 GMT
From TUFFF... I've just played Kharé - Cityport of traps, and was ultimately undone by my own inability to read instructions found in the Shamutanti Hills: I'd written down that when I meet Flanker in Kharé, I should turn to 79, instead of just reading the instructions of 79 before beginning the adventure. In trying to ascertain where I failed, it appears to me essential to have this second meeting with Flanker to get one of the lines of the spell to open the North gate. I don't think there's another way around it. Anyway, I definitely enjoyed the book, I liked that I didn't' have to fight very much, although I nearly died several times due to low stamina - and I started with 21. I think I prefer Port Blacksand as a city to adventure in, but Kharé was entertainingly different, an entirely different vibe. I like the concept of a city of traps as a means for the citizens to protect themselves. Needing to find four different lines of a spell to open the gate also struck me as a clever touch: searching for sentences as opposed to items. I thought the purpose of the book was also cool, it's certainly different to have unlocking a city gate as the cause for all the trouble I went through. An example of the this trouble was landing in the sewer, and suffering a face full of excrement. God I love the 80s - this was a book marketed towards kids! Even worse than that, I had to draw a map to escape said sewer, taken from the most confusing instructions I've ever encountered in a FF book eg. Which way will you go? (second option) First right, first left, second left, first right? I ended up drawing a map so arcane it resembled a demonic sigil with potential to put my soul in danger as a reader. Then I was tricked into giving a good quantity of gold to a seductive wishing well, 5 gp down before realising I was going around in circles as opposed to getting cured of every ailment known to man, as promised. Then I had to shower erotic kisses over someone else's god, only to learn it was all in vain because I can't bloody read instructions properly.Lastly, the illustrations were both interesting and weird, I liked the detail and took time to enjoy examining the smaller points of many of them. They were weird because they each had something oddly 'out' about them, whether proportion or facial features or whatever. A bit like a strange dream. I perhaps should have read the old puffin version, because they were a bit too blurry in the Wizard edition. 'Then battle for freedom wherever you can, And, if not shot or hang'd, you’ll get knighted.' - Lord Byron
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 13, 2013 23:31:54 GMT
From TUFFF... ...it appears to me essential to have this second meeting with Flanker to get one of the lines of the spell to open the North gate. I don't think there's another way around it. There is another way. You have to intervene in a fight (and pick the right side). Steve Jackson's put some pretty devious stuff into his books, but never stooped as low as making victory depend on having played a different book beforehand.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 13, 2013 23:33:05 GMT
From TUFFF... Then I had to shower erotic kisses over someone else's god, only to learn it was all in vain because I can't bloody read instructions properly.
It was only as an adult that I realised the words above the God say "a cross and not across" which is very sneaky imo. Second I agree Flanker makes things a lot easier as you can pick up the sun jewel and then use Flanker to double back to find the first line. Also this allows you to go back to fair later in the day to pick up the -1 to luck roll pendant. This is pushing the rules to breaking point but it is fair as far as I can tell.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 13, 2013 23:34:58 GMT
From TUFFF... There is another way. You have to intervene in a fight (and pick the right side).Steve Jackson's put some pretty devious stuff into his books, but never stooped as low as making victory depend on having played a different book beforehand. Ah good, that's somewhat reassuring. I was harbouring a suspicion that when I finally got to The Crown of Kings, I might lose because of something I didn't collect or learn in The Shamutanti Hills! 'Then battle for freedom wherever you can, And, if not shot or hang'd, you’ll get knighted.' - Lord Byron
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 13, 2013 23:35:55 GMT
From TUFFF... It was only as an adult that I realised the words above the God say "a cross and not across" which is very sneaky imo. You know, I didn't even recognise that the script was English, so poor was the quality of the illustration in the edition I was using. I guess I could have made it out if I really tried, but I just thought it was characters from an invented language. Yes, that is very sneaky and clever too. 'Then battle for freedom wherever you can, And, if not shot or hang'd, you’ll get knighted.' - Lord Byron
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 13, 2013 23:36:36 GMT
From TUFFF... As far as I know this book has the rare distinction of being the only time when you can get doped up on drugs in FF, with the exception of the generic quaffing of ale that goes on in other books, or unintentional ingestion of poisons like Mad-Mad Berries. I don't think the Black Elf crash pad is on the optimal path, but I'm always tempted to seek them out anyway when going through this one. I have fond memories of reading this book in my early 20s and being delighted when stumbling in on the smoking weed aficianados for the first time, largely because I was coincidentally in a sympathetic mental state myself at the time of reading. I'm honestly surprised this made it past the editors, although I guess the fact that the outcome of imbibing isn't portrayed as necessarily positive is a plus. Still, considering the Naked Sacrifice Lady was censored out in the US version of House of Hell it's interesting I haven't heard too much about this encounter, which seems just as controversial an addition to what was in essence supposed to be 'children's entertainment'. As for the rest of the book, I enjoy this one a lot, although I prefer the wilderness settings of the 1st and 3rd books for some reason. Still, there's some great encounters in here... and some really weird ones. Others have mentioned that whispering fish (wtf is up with that??), being hooked up to a trap in an Inn, and the intense sense of paranoia you get while dealing with the Red-Eyes. I also like that squid-faced gimp with no arms, who you can steal a gold-backed mirror from. He's like an illithid, only completely ineffective and dopey. Although I said I prefer wilderness settings, the gimpithid encounter sort of drives home to me one great advantage of 'city books' (and this is what I love about City of Thieves too)- being able to wander into the houses/stores of complete strangers and either threaten them with my sword, rob them blind, or both. Brilliant.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,437
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Aug 18, 2014 10:41:22 GMT
Just wondering, do people think it's a legitimate tactic to use Luck to do more damage against the Death Wraith using the bow? I've always thought you couldn't but I suppose it makes sense you could have lucky shots that do more damage.
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Post by dragonwarrior8 on Oct 24, 2019 18:02:38 GMT
Just wondering, do people think it's a legitimate tactic to use Luck to do more damage against the Death Wraith using the bow? I've always thought you couldn't but I suppose it makes sense you could have lucky shots that do more damage. For some reason I didnt think you could either but now that you mention it (5 years ago lol) I dont see why not. I wish had thought of it at the time! How about the tactic of using the Libra "revitalize" boon during combat once you get to 1 or 2 stamina points left? I believe you can use this at any time even in a battle. This would seem to make the toughest fight in any adventure a heck of a lot easier as you effectively double your stamina and replenish your luck for the fight.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,437
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Oct 25, 2019 9:08:58 GMT
For some reason I didnt think you could either but now that you mention it (5 years ago lol) I dont see why not. I wish had thought of it at the time! I'd completely forgotten asking this question but good to get a response! Yes, I think this is definitely fine - nothing says you can't pray during battle and it makes Book 1 a lot more fair for the warrior. Same as in Warlock of Firetop Mountain, you can down a Potion of Stamina (twice) while fighting if you like.
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Post by zoove on Dec 8, 2019 20:47:19 GMT
I just finished this one. Had to run through it a number of times to get all four spells which I now realise you don’t actually need. The priest’s line is unnecessary. But his puzzle was a fun one to solve.
Question I have, though is: the “talking” fish. What was the point of his word, “bwrthrrs”? It sounds like he was saying “brothers” which might allude to the whole Courga and Fourga thing but you never get to use this or use a spell to translate what the fish is saying.
Is this section just a red herring, pardon the pun?
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,437
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Dec 9, 2019 10:01:24 GMT
I just finished this one. Had to run through it a number of times to get all four spells which I now realise you don’t actually need. The priest’s line is unnecessary. But his puzzle was a fun one to solve. Question I have, though is: the “talking” fish. What was the point of his word, “bwrthrrs”? It sounds like he was saying “brothers” which might allude to the whole Courga and Fourga thing but you never get to use this or use a spell to translate what the fish is saying. Is this section just a red herring, pardon the pun? I thought it was just a way for you to waste cash you might need to bribe the guards at the North Gate - if there is a clue there, it's far too subtle to be of much use!
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Post by dragonwarrior8 on Dec 9, 2019 15:35:39 GMT
The riddle threw me off a bit. In Bigfoot's family there are 6 sons. Is Bigfoot himself not a son though? (Meaning he himself has only 5 sons).
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,437
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Dec 9, 2019 15:40:06 GMT
The riddle threw me off a bit. In Bigfoot's family there are 6 sons. Is Bigfoot himself not a son though? (Meaning he himself has only 5 sons). That thought never occurred to me, but now you mention it, it is confusingly worded. Why not just "Bigfoot has six sons"?
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Post by dragonwarrior8 on Dec 9, 2019 17:51:14 GMT
The riddle threw me off a bit. In Bigfoot's family there are 6 sons. Is Bigfoot himself not a son though? (Meaning he himself has only 5 sons). That thought never occurred to me, but now you mention it, it is confusingly worded. Why not just "Bigfoot has six sons"? I was wondering that myself. lol. It started me thinking though when the books were translated into different languages I wonder how many, if any, because nigh unsolvable due to a word puzzle or riddle taking on different meanings.
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Dec 9, 2019 18:17:25 GMT
That thought never occurred to me, but now you mention it, it is confusingly worded. Why not just "Bigfoot has six sons"? I was wondering that myself. lol. It started me thinking though when the books were translated into different languages I wonder how many, if any, because nigh unsolvable due to a word puzzle or riddle taking on different meanings. From what is written on the Masks of Mayhem thread, the book's French, German and Portuguese versions correctly adapt the traitor's name to make it include a number in their language.
No such luck for the Hungarians, (I think their version stayed with Ifor Tynin). The book was impossible for them. Lack of proper playtesting more than anything else.
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Post by vastariner on Dec 9, 2019 20:06:55 GMT
Question I have, though is: the “talking” fish. What was the point of his word, “bwrthrrs”? It sounds like he was saying “brothers” which might allude to the whole Courga and Fourga thing but you never get to use this or use a spell to translate what the fish is saying. I took it as being "brothers", as a clue to getting Fourga's name. Although it's not much of a clue.
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Post by schlendrian on Dec 10, 2019 0:08:16 GMT
Generally that is a problem for translations, but ff specifically was translated quite well into German - I couldn't think of any difficulties in that regard.
Much more problematic are the missing pictures - again, not so much for ff but I remember that in Fabled Lands one could buy a map of a forest in Golnir and the English book would say that you bought the map and there would be the picture next to it. The paragraph in the translation would say that you bought the map but the picture would be missing... Same goes for Bigleg's map in Forest of Doom - the introduction would mention that you got the map, but there simply is no map in the book
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Post by a moderator on Dec 10, 2019 0:27:08 GMT
The map in Forest is very unhelpful, so you're not missing much there.
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Post by Peter on Dec 10, 2019 6:32:05 GMT
Question I have, though is: the “talking” fish. What was the point of his word, “bwrthrrs”? It sounds like he was saying “brothers” which might allude to the whole Courga and Fourga thing but you never get to use this or use a spell to translate what the fish is saying. I took it as being "brothers", as a clue to getting Fourga's name. Although it's not much of a clue. I always felt this was just a red herring (or "negative-outcome encounter"), cunningly designed to suggest a clue is on offer, but in fact nothing more than a drain on your resources.
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Post by schlendrian on Dec 10, 2019 13:33:52 GMT
The map in Forest is very unhelpful, so you're not missing much there. Indeed. Finding the map years later proved to be particularly disappointing.
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