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Post by dragonwarrior8 on Dec 12, 2019 13:58:20 GMT
The ordering of the four spell lines must have been rendered into an absolute crapshoot.
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Post by schlendrian on Dec 12, 2019 16:30:14 GMT
Unfortunately, the Sorcery! Books are among those I only own in English, wherefore I cannot elaborate on them. Same goes for HoH, which would also interesting for the password.
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tom
Squire
Posts: 23
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Post by tom on Apr 4, 2021 18:57:29 GMT
Spoiler warning: the ending of Khare has always confused me. How are you supposed to know which order to kiss Courga, other than being given clues that the left eye leads the way and not to kiss the cheek. I have just read the thread and picked up ‘a cross and not across’ but can’t work out how this helps with the correct order ‘left eye, right eye, forehead, nose, mouth’.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,437
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Apr 4, 2021 21:58:06 GMT
Spoiler warning: the ending of Khare has always confused me. How are you supposed to know which order to kiss Courga, other than being given clues that the left eye leads the way and not to kiss the cheek. I have just read the thread and picked up ‘a cross and not across’ but can’t work out how this helps with the correct order ‘left eye, right eye, forehead, nose, mouth’. Well the sign above his head tells you to finish with the lips, so you know the mouth is last. You get a clue to start with the left eye, and another clue to ignore the cheeks. The nose would be in the middle of the cross so not necessary. So the only choice is whether to do the forehead or right eye first. If you do the forehead first, you'd make a diamond rather than a cross, so the correct order must be left eye, right eye, forehead, mouth. I think it is an imperfect puzzle though - certainly leaving out the nose is a bit questionable.
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Post by a moderator on Apr 4, 2021 22:28:26 GMT
If the nose were included, how would you know when to do it? Between the eyes? Between forehead and lips? Both times?
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,437
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Apr 5, 2021 8:15:53 GMT
If the nose were included, how would you know when to do it? Between the eyes? Between forehead and lips? Both times? I think any of those options are reasonable to be honest.
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Post by a moderator on Apr 5, 2021 14:11:12 GMT
If the nose were included, how would you know when to do it? Between the eyes? Between forehead and lips? Both times? I think any of those options are reasonable to be honest. That'd bring its own problems. For brevity's sake, I'll use numbers rather than kissable areas. As things stand, the correct sequence is 1-2-3-4. Any deviation from this sequence leads to a lethal loop. Make the nose (5) part of the sequence, and suddenly there are multiple possible correct sequences: 1-5-2-3-4, 1-2-3-5-4, 1-5-2-3-5-4, and a case could be made for 1-2-5-3-4 and possibly even 1-5-2-5-3-5-4. So do you arbitrarily choose just one of them as correct? If so, you either make the challenge more unfair, because there's no way to work it out (other than trial and error with a dead hero for every wrong guess), or you have to find somewhere else in the book to put another clue. And if you decide that more than one should be acceptable, the kissing sequence becomes structurally more complex because it now has to allow for multiple potentially correct paths while still ensuring that all other variants lead into the death loop. Instead of one correct path and a bunch of dead ends, you have several overlapping potentially correct paths, requiring additional sections (for example, as well as 'kiss right eye straight after left eye' and 'kiss right eye at wrong time' you need 'kiss right eye after first left eye and then nose', and they'd need to lead to separate 'kiss forehead' options, because 'right straight after left' is on a path that still needs to include the nose at some point, while 'right after left plus nose' is on a path where the nose can be kissed again, but doesn't need to be), which means restructuring a lot of the gamebook to fit the extra ones in.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,437
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Apr 5, 2021 20:51:53 GMT
I think any of those options are reasonable to be honest. That'd bring its own problems. For brevity's sake, I'll use numbers rather than kissable areas. As things stand, the correct sequence is 1-2-3-4. Any deviation from this sequence leads to a lethal loop. Make the nose (5) part of the sequence, and suddenly there are multiple possible correct sequences: 1-5-2-3-4, 1-2-3-5-4, 1-5-2-3-5-4, and a case could be made for 1-2-5-3-4 and possibly even 1-5-2-5-3-5-4. So do you arbitrarily choose just one of them as correct? If so, you either make the challenge more unfair, because there's no way to work it out (other than trial and error with a dead hero for every wrong guess), or you have to find somewhere else in the book to put another clue. And if you decide that more than one should be acceptable, the kissing sequence becomes structurally more complex because it now has to allow for multiple potentially correct paths while still ensuring that all other variants lead into the death loop. Instead of one correct path and a bunch of dead ends, you have several overlapping potentially correct paths, requiring additional sections (for example, as well as 'kiss right eye straight after left eye' and 'kiss right eye at wrong time' you need 'kiss right eye after first left eye and then nose', and they'd need to lead to separate 'kiss forehead' options, because 'right straight after left' is on a path that still needs to include the nose at some point, while 'right after left plus nose' is on a path where the nose can be kissed again, but doesn't need to be), which means restructuring a lot of the gamebook to fit the extra ones in. Agreed. However, I feel a good puzzle shouldn't require you to think about the structure of the gamebook to help solve it. Certainly I remember as a child going wrong by trying to include the nose. The cheeks confused me a bit too - I didn't think there would be an option to kiss them if they weren't part of the pattern, which led me to coming up with some odd chi-rho style crosses!
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Post by The Count on Apr 6, 2021 2:04:13 GMT
Its a terrible puzzle in every way. One of many failings of the Sorcery! series.
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Post by petch on Apr 6, 2021 14:15:16 GMT
I'd just like to commend the restraint of the forum's members for not making any jokes about the Analander kissing cheeks as yet.
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Post by jmisbest on Apr 6, 2021 15:32:49 GMT
I'd just like to commend the restraint of the forum's members for not making any jokes about the Analander kissing cheeks as yet. I didn't even know their were jokes about the Analander kissing cheeks, which is why I want to know if the jokes about the Analander kissing cheeks would have something to do with The Culture of his or her Homeland of Analand?
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Post by tyrion on Apr 6, 2021 15:42:49 GMT
I'd just like to commend the restraint of the forum's members for not making any jokes about the Analander kissing cheeks as yet. I didn't even know their were jokes about the Analander kissing cheeks, which is why I want to know if the jokes about the Analander kissing cheeks would have something to do with The Culture of his or her Homeland of Analand?
Some people think Analand sounds rude.
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Post by Wilf on Apr 7, 2021 17:12:44 GMT
Question I have, though is: the “talking” fish. What was the point of his word, “bwrthrrs”? Actually "bwrthhrs". Only Connect fans might spot this one: "Beware The Horse" without the vowels.
There's a stallion up the road from the pond. Mounting it is a bad idea if you want to keep on the correct path with your stamina score intact.
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Post by Wilf on Apr 7, 2021 17:24:56 GMT
Spoiler warning: the ending of Khare has always confused me. How are you supposed to know which order to kiss Courga, other than being given clues that the left eye leads the way and not to kiss the cheek. I have just read the thread and picked up ‘a cross and not across’ but can’t work out how this helps with the correct order ‘left eye, right eye, forehead, nose, mouth’. Well the sign above his head tells you to finish with the lips, so you know the mouth is last. You get a clue to start with the left eye, and another clue to ignore the cheeks. The nose would be in the middle of the cross so not necessary. So the only choice is whether to do the forehead or right eye first. If you do the forehead first, you'd make a diamond rather than a cross, so the correct order must be left eye, right eye, forehead, mouth. I think it is an imperfect puzzle though - certainly leaving out the nose is a bit questionable. Never had a problem with this one, oddly. Though I'll admit child-Wilf solved it by using the five-finger-bookmark and comparing reference numbers!
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,437
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Apr 7, 2021 23:10:32 GMT
Never had a problem with this one, oddly. Though I'll admit child-Wilf solved it by using the five-finger-bookmark and comparing reference numbers! Always a helpful tactic! Thinking about it some more, the closest thing to a cross would probably be left eye, right eye, nose, forehead, mouth.
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Post by schlendrian on Apr 8, 2021 6:08:48 GMT
I'd guess the correct answer would be immediately obvious to every catholic.
My take on the riddle is, that although all important infos need to be provided by the book, I don't need to be spoonfed. Expecting the reader to make an inference like "there's no information and no obvious unique answer as to where the nose should go, so it probably isn't part of the solution" is perfectly valid imo.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,437
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Apr 8, 2021 7:41:43 GMT
I'd guess the correct answer would be immediately obvious to every catholic. Not this Catholic it wasn't!
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,437
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Apr 8, 2021 7:44:04 GMT
Question I have, though is: the “talking” fish. What was the point of his word, “bwrthrrs”? Actually "bwrthhrs". Only Connect fans might spot this one: "Beware The Horse" without the vowels.
There's a stallion up the road from the pond. Mounting it is a bad idea if you want to keep on the correct path with your stamina score intact.
I always thought the fish was just a... red herring! Seriously though, I thought it's only purpose was to waste money you need to bribe the guards at the gate.
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Post by a moderator on Apr 8, 2021 11:49:57 GMT
I'd guess the correct answer would be immediately obvious to every catholic. I'm not a catholic, but I have seen Nuns on the Run, and the mnemonic used in that to help Eric Idle's character remember the correct sequence for crossing himself suggests that the forehead goes first, so I'm not sure that'd be much help with Courga.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,437
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Apr 8, 2021 13:14:51 GMT
I'd guess the correct answer would be immediately obvious to every catholic. I'm not a catholic, but I have seen Nuns on the Run, and the mnemonic used in that to help Eric Idle's character remember the correct sequence for crossing himself suggests that the forehead goes first, so I'm not sure that'd be much help with Courga. The "spectacles, testicles, wallet and watch" mnemonic always seems wrong to me. The correct order is head-chest-left-right. But most people wear their watch on their left wrist and keep their wallet in their right pocket so it should really be "spectacles, testicles, watch and wallet". But I guess that's not as catchy. Edit: apparently it dates back to the days of pocket watches which were carried in the right pocket - so it's a mnemonic that really should have died off 100-odd years ago.
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Post by schlendrian on Apr 8, 2021 14:14:59 GMT
I'd guess the correct answer would be immediately obvious to every catholic. I'm not a catholic, but I have seen Nuns on the Run, and the mnemonic used in that to help Eric Idle's character remember the correct sequence for crossing himself suggests that the forehead goes first, so I'm not sure that'd be much help with Courga. I stand corrected. In my defence, I'm no catholic either and regardless of the order, there is no mid-point/nose necessary for it to count as a cross, which was what I was aiming for
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Post by The Count on Apr 8, 2021 22:51:28 GMT
I'd just like to commend the restraint of the forum's members for not making any jokes about the Analander kissing cheeks as yet. I did restrain myself from doing so here and in my thread
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Post by vastariner on May 10, 2022 22:12:18 GMT
A few little thoughts on a replay...
...why can you not use HOW on the kissing ritual?
...why can you not go back into the city if you don't know the four spell lines?
...why has nobody done anything about mine host at the Wayfarer's?
...if you get the book right, you have no idea where the "traps" bit in the title comes in.
...Lortag's conundrum is really, really stupid.
...is the fighting booth REALLY to the death? Seems like the operator would be running out of challengers pretty quickly...
...unless I've always missed it, I think there is only one weapon that can deal with the undead Lord - a bit surprised there's not another weapon option available.
...despite it being the Verminpit, I think there is only one necessary fight.
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Post by vastariner on May 10, 2022 22:13:59 GMT
And the very obvious point...
...why the bloody hell can't Libra give you the spell lines? Perhaps the priest of Slangg has a point.
One plot twist that might have been fun is for you to get some sort of benefit from being a Slangg devotee; perhaps a fight bonus for being extra-malicious. In-universe it would not have done you any good in finishing the book, although you can in theory win the book without that particular line.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,437
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on May 11, 2022 9:39:39 GMT
- How does no-one overhear the First Noble whenever s/he recites the whole spell? For that matter how did various people learn one line but no more?
- You are told that one line each is known by one of the leading nobles of the city but only one you learn is actually from a noble - and he's dead. Does that mean there are others you don't encounter who also know spell lines?
- If pretty much no-one can open the North Gate, why is it so heavily guarded?
- Why does a devotee of a god of malice spend his time healing the crippled? Doesn't seem very malicious.
- Many of the descriptions are so bare-bones you barely feel you're in a city at all.
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Post by vastariner on May 11, 2022 10:41:04 GMT
I think the beggar is a fallen noble. Wouldn't surprise me if Lortag and Slanggy were also nobles in mufti. I can imagine the one-line thing being a security device for when the First Lord dies or goes bonkers, someone can step in and do the double-key thing, or it's like the Funniest Joke in the World.
The gate is presumably guarded against incomers, as there's nothing stopping you from opening it from the outside, surely? Hence the caravans in the Baklands. And of course people could try sneaking out when caravans come in (and then sail back down the Jabaji to pick up copperstones et al off the coast).
Certainly I'd be asking Courga for a detailed exegesis on how to get the Crown safely back to Analand rather than a tricksy point about a god's name...
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,437
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on May 11, 2022 10:54:21 GMT
The gate is presumably guarded against incomers, as there's nothing stopping you from opening it from the outside, surely? But wasn't the whole point of the North Gate spell to protect the city from Baklands raiders? And if the guards are to prevent intruders, shouldn't they be outside the city?
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on May 11, 2022 17:36:07 GMT
Were we told why you couldn't just invest in a rope and grapnel, look for a temporarily vacant stretch of city wall and just descend onto the ground outside the city? Or even just jump off and cast FAL if you don't fancy the exercise?
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