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Post by babbagefart on Feb 16, 2020 14:35:08 GMT
7) Island of the Lizard King
I have played this one briefly but can’t remember much about needed items. I have to knock that thing off the Lizard King’s head and speak with a shaman. Other than that I am not sure. It may come back to me.
Attempt 1:
Skill: 12 Stamina: 22 Luck: 10
Good stuff. I feel ready.
1 24 211
182 – Wow! No easing us unto this one. Skill 10, Stamina 11. But then it is a giant crab.
366 198 267
354 – f**k it. What is there to lose!? Wait – it’s a Livingstone book!!!
238 152 391 81 177 229 337 171 215
323 – Personally I never find my Luck score going below 7 all that much anyway.
113 7 317 58 235 29 389
49 – I was warned but then I did get through those battles with no Stamina loss. Having a Skill score of 12 really kicks ass!
362 40 253 382 35 119 41 325 196 128 248 21 92 259
311 – Right – no more drinking potions on this adventure!!!
26 94 222 167 170 288
387 – There’s a lot of stuff I seem to not have.
204 31 390 87 130 14 63 329
163 – You are joking!? Failing a Luck roll on a score of 9 and then rolling a 1 to drop my sword and lose the first attack round?
368 147 28 226 213
68 – Who in their right mind is going to turn right here when you can see the reference on the same page and you lose 5 Stamina points?
278 172 4 101 321 19 392
135 – This is getting dull…
39 25 85 112 192 57 361 47 315 78 184 51 223 3 161 74 114 265 121
251 – Grateful for my high initials…
201 363 376
399 – I don’t really want to but things like this are so tempting.
282
116 – Bugger! I knew it!
27 388 212 72 30 65
89 – Very easy find for one of Ian’s books.
269 59 108 79 332 17 303 178 233 249
199 – Has anyone in the history of gamebooks ever got to this point, found out that they need to be wearing a feather to meet the shaman, found said feather, then found said shaman, then decided to take the option to not seek his help? I’m guessing no.
397 220 98 335 93 151 125
214 – That was actually pretty easy.
168 328 338
374 – Nice try but my Luck score is fixed at a minimum of 7 so I don’t lose any (but I would have now been on only 3 Luck otherwise).
139 95
133 – So the situation looks like this: Skill 12, Stamina 10, Luck 7.
218 258 291
330 – Ian really made finding items quite easy in this one, didn’t he?
350 106 279 42 341 254 299 268 166 318 372 227 273 395 136 275 312 353
360 – So – we’re going into the final section with Skill 12, Stamina 12 and Luck 9. All is still good.
173 216 180 82 203 314 296 153 384
400 – Phew!
And that’s it. Managed to finish first time with Skill 12, Stamina 6 and Luck 9. I would say I don’t know how he does it (makes it so that characters get pretty low in Stamina towards the finale which actually really adds to the gameplay and enjoyment. This happened last week with Deathtrap Dungeon as well even more so) but had my character rolled any lower, even probably Skill 10, then I would likely have died a while ago.
I did likely miss out on some health boosts given my reluctance to drink potions and such like but I didn’t want to risk it and I’m now glad. The items of necessity were not difficult to find and the Horn of Valhalla was not an essential item (good thing because I never found that one) and so made for an easier adventure, a good thing when you’re trying to get through them one per week as I am.
I think this is a great book. It’s atmospheric and has a great setting. Lizard men are awesome and they’re drawn really well. The pacing is great. There’s variety in the encounters and I love books that are clearly split into days – especially ones where you have to sleep in jungles and so on, even though little happened during the night in this one.
I never played this one as a kid which is a real shame. I loved reading it this time and think that my younger self would have really enjoyed it, such is the sense of adventure in it. Ian was on a roll to release this effort so close to having written City of Thieves and Deathtrap Dungeon. It’s quite an achievement when you think about it. They were all released within a few months of each other (but then Steve was ploughing through the Sorcery! series at the same time).
Rankings:
I am really tempted to place this one above City of Thieves. I’m not sure. City has classic status but Island is fresh and new. I am for now undecided so at the moment they are tied for second place. Either way it is Ian’s three books that take up the podium positions at this point, but the first place is undisputed.
1) Deathtrap Dungeon 2) City of Thieves 2) Island of the Lizard King 4) Citadel of Chaos 5) Forest of Doom 6) Warlock of Firetop Mountain 7) Starship Traveller
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Post by a moderator on Feb 16, 2020 21:05:56 GMT
68 – Who in their right mind is going to turn right here when you can see the reference on the same page and you lose 5 Stamina points? Anyone who knows what may be found by going that way and considers the Stamina penalty worth paying in order to get the item in question.
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Post by babbagefart on Feb 24, 2020 0:21:19 GMT
68 – Who in their right mind is going to turn right here when you can see the reference on the same page and you lose 5 Stamina points? Anyone who knows what may be found by going that way and considers the Stamina penalty worth paying in order to get the item in question. Ah, I am intrigued. I shall have to revisit.
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Post by babbagefart on Feb 24, 2020 0:22:18 GMT
8) Scorpion Swamp
Skill: 10 Stamina: 22 Luck: 10
I remember being disappointed with this one as a child. I know that it should be mapped as I go. I thought I would remember it well but I was pleasantly surprised to find out that you are able to use magic – perhaps a sign that I do not remember my previous trips into Scorpion Swamp much after all.
1 95 240
205 – They said on the forum there was a decent chance of getting through the good quest with minimum stats. Let’s give it a bash. I get the impression Jackson did a kind of ‘easy, medium and hard’ thing with these wizards. Cool if he did.
335 96
371 – Spells selected: Ice, Growth, Friendship, Bless, Illusion, Stamina
9
195 – Clearing 1: Wet ground
91
398 – Clearing 4: Master of Wolves
191 294 172 314
90 – Clearing 34: Deep stream
44
157 – Clearing 18: Sword Trees (a bit silly) 203 28 362 22
320 – Clearing 29: Unicorn
119 381 348
10 – Clearing 5: Battle scene
59 227
66 – Clearing 9: Thief
267 386 179
183 – Clearing 20: Cliff
295 – Clearing 33: Foulbrood River
94
320 – Clearing 29: (not according to my map) Unicorn
265 348
10 – Clearing 5
142 227
320 – Clearing: 29
265 348
204 – Clearing 23: Fear Flowers
269 367
304 – Clearing 14: Mistress of Birds
131 164
248 – Clearing 16: So much for mapping…
202
41 – Clearing 30: Quicksand
270
275 – Clearing 7: Giant
286 244 161
92 – Clearing 11: Wolves
68 302 247 232
389 – Antherica Plant
300 – Clearing 7
161
41 – Clearing 30
382 270 331 112 202
138 – Clearing 35: Stone Bridge
101
118 – Clearing 13: Scorpions
70 377 319
66 – Clearing 9
192 179
10 – Clearing 5
142 227
320 – Clearing 29
265 348
157 – Clearing 18
279
203 – There’s nothing I can use…
28 362 22
90 – Clearing 34
44
398 – Clearing 4
239 314
195 – Clearing 1
91
208 – Exit the swamp
159 6 175 – Completed Selator’s quest.
In order to get the best from this book I thought I’d have to try another route. Don’t have time for all three so going with Grimslade, the evil wizard. It’ll be easier now that I have a map of some of the swamp.
Skill 11 Stamina: 16 Luck: 9
Spells: Fear, Withering, Curse, Illusion, Fire, Stamina
1 95 240 205 255 40 97 284 156 241 206 9
195 91
398 – Clearing 4: Master of Wolves
120
154 – Amulet #1
46 314
90 – Clearing 34: Deep Stream
44
157 – Clearing 18: Sword Trees
362 22
320 – Clearing 29: Unicorn
221 277 86
189 – I have found a Friendship gem. That surely means I can cast it? I didn’t choose it after all.
348 94
295 – Clearing 33: Foulbrood River
183 – Clearing 20: Cliff
66 – Clearing 9: Thief
267 386 179
10 – Clearing 5: Battle Scene
59 227
388 – Clearing 24: Crab Grass
134 81 187
290 – Clearing 26: Swamp Orcs
83 35 281 135 309
53 – Clearing 8: Master of Frogs
13 287 359 162
245 – Amulet #2
352
323 – Clearing 26
309
47 – Clearing 3: Nothing
31 – Clearing 21: Crystalline Pool
394 77
47 – Clearing 3
118 – Clearing 13: Scorpions
182 319
138 – Clearing 35: Bridge
101
350 – Clearing 16: Eagle
233 392 132 73 202
14 – Clearing 32: Giant Scorpion and Dwarf
88 121
218 – Clearing 15: Will-O’-the-Wisp
336 – Clearing 28: Slime
257 153
65 – Clearing 10: Brigands
163 79 360 214 19
280 – Willowbend. Awesome!
78 150 343
343 – Clearing 10
199 19
137 – Clearing 28
336 257 153
218 – Clearing 15
72 249 121
170 – Clearing 19: Ranger
29 185 234
305 – Clearing 27: Master of Gardens
334 37 220 334 152
117 – Nice. I love how this book is aware of this! Sucks how it didn’t work though.
363 – Clearing 19
133 234
305 – Clearing 27 238 363 133 234 121
275 – Clearing 7: Giant
145 252 161
41 – Clearing 30: Quicksand
270 331 202 138 101
118 – Clearing 13
303 70 377 319
47 – Clearing 3
31 – Clearing 21
364 – Stops you from drinking at the pool a second time…
47 290 323 309
388 – Clearing 24
263 187
144 – Clearing 17: Master of Spiders
26
354 – Amulet #3. Now I just need to get out of here.
165
105 – Clearing 12: Hollow Tree
390
195 – Clearing 1
91
208 – Exit the swamp
159 226 194 207 358
And that’s it. I’ve tried to remember what it was that disappointed me so much about this book when I was a kid. Perhaps it was the art. The illustrations and cover art really did make a difference in me choosing a book back in the 80s (makes me wonder why the new artwork and covers do not have the same care and attention).
I thought it was really interesting. It’s a shame I don’t have time to try the 3rd route but it does go to show that there is genuine replayability with this. It is very easy. The Grimslade route saw me finishing with 5 Stamina and I had been saving a couple of spells to use against the (a bit silly) Sword Trees as I thought that was the only way back. Getting to the exit so soon after fighting the Master of Spiders was a bit of a shock, even though I was mapping the whole thing.
A couple of things I would have liked to see is less of a board game feel. It does sometimes remind me of moving little figures from square to square on a board and this isn’t really what I’m into with a book like this. I would also have liked to spend a night there. Livingstone would definitely have had me spending a night in the swamp – even if very little happened. It always adds something to a book for me. I do love how you get to the town at the far north of the map and get to sleep there though. Really adds something to this for me.
I also love how if you are following Grimslade’s path and want to cast a spell against the Master of Gardens the book ‘remembers’ that you killed the Unicorn and so can cast the friendship spell. Not that it does you any good…
Overall a solid enough book in my opinion.
Rankings:
Tough one this time… It’s better than the earliest books I would say but not good enough to break into that top 3 of Livingston gems. It’s a battle between this one and Citadel of Chaos. I’m going to place it just above…. Both have decent a replay factor and both use magic but I like the different spells you can have given the quest you choose so I’m giving this the 4th spot.
I’ve also decided to break the tie and so City of Thieves gets the second spot ahead of Island of the Lizard King…
1) Deathtrap Dungeon 2) City of Thieves 3) Island of the Lizard King 4) Scorpion Swamp 5) Citadel of Chaos 6) Forest of Doom 7) Warlock of Firetop Mountain 8) Starship Traveller
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Post by babbagefart on Mar 1, 2020 7:59:37 GMT
9) Caverns of the Snow Witch
Skill: 10 Stamina: 16 / 16 Luck: 10 / 4
Potion of Stamina War Hammer Spear
Provisions: 10 / 8
Attempt 1: Killed by Yeti Attempt 2: Killed by the ring that drains your life force. Attempt 3: Killed by Brain Slayer (didn’t think I needed the Amulet of Courage). Attempt 4: Killed playing the stupid Circle, Square, Star game. Attempt 5:
Section 1: Yeti
1 – C’mon then, Yeti. Where are you?
335 41 212 202 337 281 169 36
118 – Not that I need it. 192 255 263
190 – The Yeti!
77 391 249 219
67 – The difference between a Skill 9 and 10 opponent here is evident as my first attempt at this was failure against the Yeti with a Skill 8 character. I might have had a chance if the Yeti had but 1 less Skill point.
Section 2: Crystal Caves
25
109 – Just (rolled an 11 – equal to my Skill) 81 363 395 89 331 241
321 – Lost 6 Stamina points just like that!? Now down to 8.
254 314
86 – Lost a Luck test and the punishment is that I lose 2 Luck Points? So three Luck used for one test? Down to 4 Luck.
39
240 – Successful Luck roll. Down to 3 Luck.
43 29 106 95 187 179 194 74 345 317
356 – Current status: Skill 11, Stamina 7, Luck 3
97 327 198 260 370
31 – Rolled a 4 in a Luck Test with a score of 3.
143
184 – Add 1 Luck Point! Thank you, Ian. Oh thank you. I promise I won’t let it change me!
137 311 376 125 156 232
72 – Damn illusionist.
288 112 373 12 65 21
130 – Slowly building the Luck back up.
338 59 148 368 83 62 200 150 52
297 – The Snow Witch!
210 34 4 235 171 61 48
275 – More good news.
166 259 353 379 20 141 365 189 309 344 224
147 – Luck has slowly built from 3 back up to 8.
101 176 285 298 183 253 135 230 339 216 282
193 – Yay, back to successful Luck rolls.
336 262 23
Circle, Square, Star
113 15 3 104 315 180 329 272 76 362 278 69
348 – Bird Men!
256
18 – Down to 6 Stamina. With a lesser character this would have been the end!
63 96 110 399
13 – Actually came through unscathed.
211 218 38 30
46 – Going into the final section with 10 / 16 / 5 character.
312 119 168 341 71 390 346 205 268 162 50 320 364 115 100 273
85 – Luck back down to 4.
175 252 398 342 92 128 319 75 258 54 91 359
154 – Ian is asking a lot for someone to survive this adventure.
5 68 19 328 217 146
400 – Phew!!
And that’s it! I think that was close to 170 references it took to get through that. Not too shy of half the entire book. That’s an awful lot. All-in-all I think it’s a decent enough story and I love the first section – really tough setting. Is it too long though? What should be the maximum number of references needed to see to complete a book? Or was it just that I had to play it a few times that made it feel so long?
Had I rolled a lesser Skill score this would have been over much more quickly. How do I know this? Because the previous characters I had with lower scores were mostly killed in battle. This is not a friendly book for those who roll low starting scores. This does have an effect on how I view this book as a game. I did like how my Luck score got really low but then managed to creep back up. Constantly having a low score and not knowing when a horrible situation might crop up added to the enjoyment of the story.
I just wonder if it’s a bit long. I also don’t feel anything completely original about it, other than maybe the fact that the storyline changes throughout and you meet companions who survive a decent amount of time (looking at you guys Throm and especially Mungo) which, come to think of it, were decent considering this is still only the ninth book in the series. Livingstone was writing a lot at this stage and maybe this book suffers as a result, feeling like he was perhaps doing a bit too much.
Rankings:
Is it better than Citadel of Chaos? That’s the question. Probably not. In saying that… Oh, I don’t know. I’m going to throw it directly in the middle of the list.
1) Deathtrap Dungeon 2) City of Thieves 3) Island of the Lizard King 4) Scorpion Swamp 5) Caverns of the Snow Witch 6) Citadel of Chaos 7) Forest of Doom 8) Warlock of Firetop Mountain 9) Starship Traveller
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Post by a moderator on Mar 1, 2020 20:32:10 GMT
Considering that you'd already played the book a few times, I'm a little surprised that you took a completely unnecessary detour that adde 7 sections to your route and cost you a shedload of Stamina and Luck. Congratulations on surviving regardless.
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Post by babbagefart on Mar 7, 2020 0:33:47 GMT
Considering that you'd already played the book a few times, I'm a little surprised that you took a completely unnecessary detour that adde 7 sections to your route and cost you a shedload of Stamina and Luck. Congratulations on surviving regardless. I guess that it's difficult to stray from the familiar if I think I'm on the right path to begin with. Maybe I should be more adventurous. I did it in one of the earlier books as well: continuing to go for an item repeatedly even though I didn't ever find a use for it. You seem to know the books really well. I know some of them pretty well (mainly the Jackson and Livingstone ones) but am looking forward to playing some of those I'm less familiar with (mostly later books in the series). Time is also an issue. Sometimes, rather than start from the beginning again when I die, I roll my new stats and then fight out the battles that I've been involved in and reduce the Stamina, Skill and Luck, etc, as I track the references as I go. Sometimes this means that the final route I post is an amalgamation of several attempts. You could call this cheating but I work, I have a partner, I am a third year degree student currently working on a dissertation, am training for a kickboxing competition at the end of the month, am learning original songs for a band I've started playing with, and I travel a lot between Scotland and England from home to university. It means I have to kind of rush through some of the books if they are are taking several attempts to complete. I've just finished Temple of Terror and it really fucked with me a few times. It was good though. Why not just slow down? Why do I have to post one read-through every Sunday? I don't know. f**k it. Coz I said I would. So I'll be posting House of Hell this weekend and playing through Rings of Kether at some point soon, trying to get ahead. Nice talking with you though. Could you point out which part you are referring to that added references and depleted Stamina? Cheers.
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Post by a moderator on Mar 7, 2020 23:12:30 GMT
You seem to know the books really well. I know the first dozen or so ridiculously well. Some of the later ones, too, but the further through the series you get, the less likely I am to notice sub-optimal decision-making.Shortly after you entered the Crystal Caves. If you'd gone right rather than left at 241, you'd have avoided the pit that cost you 6 Stamina, as well as the subsequent 'lose 2 Luck for being Unlucky' incident. And if you'd handled the encounter with the Mountain Elf at 395 differently, you could have avoided triggering the alarm and encountering the Goblins altogether.
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Post by babbagefart on Mar 8, 2020 9:49:36 GMT
10) House of Hell
Attempt 1: Scared to death by a Poltergeist. Attempt 2: Died after pulling bell (reference 7). Attempt 3: Scared to death by Franklins becoming a Demon. Attempt 4: Rolled a Fear Score of 8 which I don’t believe is enough to have survived so forfeited. Attempt 5:
Skill: 11 Stamina: 19 Luck: 9 Fear: 11
1 357
8 – This book bored me as a child. When I got a bit older I was able to take much more from it. It takes time to set the scene. Most gamebooks are thinking about action from the third reference of an adventure.
277 394 309 395 196 28 224
5 – I think that after the trauma of tonight I still won’t be making tomorrow’s appointment.
59 63 158 373 399 220 234 308 350 332 73 257 358 117 341 161 385 26 298
390 – I don’t recall if this is useful for anything.
287
86 – We’ll skip the Zombie again this time…
110 193 377 83
233 – We’ll also skip this door that effectively killed me in the first attempt.
374 272 175 335 139 246 170 19 321 88
295 – We’re getting there now.
159 132 285 353 119 192 303 364 85 145 64 392
397 – Providing I avoid being scared to death I am confident of reaching my goal on this attempt now. Gotta check for the secret passage when the bats attack and then step back through the mirror rather than heading downstairs to interrupt sacrifices and Great Danes and so on…
6 367 210 230 198 93 393 320
310 – Damn right I wanna look for secret doors.
276 237 174 48
35 – The Kris Knife. Let’s get this one finished.
293 113 324 147 184 215 273 160 294 10 204 349 131
211 – Seems like an extra reference thrown in there to make up the numbers…
58
323 – Showdown!
296 318 351 336 181
109 – While Steve is unfair in some of the ways he designs his books so that if you don’t know where you’re going you can really get lost, caught in loops, miss items and passwords without knowing it, and so on – at least he’s fair with his battles.
400
And that’s it. Pretty short and sweet when you know where you’re going but almost impossible if you don’t. This was one of only two books I could never finish as a child, even when cheating. The other was Creature of Havoc. When I was seventeen my pal asked if we wanted to revisit it one night when we were having a few drinks, for old time’s sake. We took turns at reading references and detailed and mapped the book fully – convinced there must be a way to complete it. It was the only one we hadn’t finished before growing out of them and the only way we managed to complete it was by pretty much flow-charting the entire book.
While I appreciate it for what it tries to do (especially trying to consider it against only the nine books that came before it) I can’t help but feel that it is the odd one out a little. As dodgy as Starship Traveller is and as different as Scorpion Swamp was to others in terms of design I can’t help but feel as though this title belongs to a different series altogether. I think that if I typed into Google ‘Fighting Fantasy books ranked’ or something similar that this would be near the top. It’s a hard one to rank for me though.
I do like it. For sure the difficulty setting offers replay value but it feels as though many of the interesting sections may only be visited by missing out on some vital clues and so it is linear in that respect, assuming you are looking to complete it and not just explore the house. I also find it weird to imagine how this one would play out in real time: the whole adventure taking place over just a few hours – a complete contrast to last week’s adventure where we travelled most of northern Allansia.
Rankings:
I’m gonna dump it in 4th place. Just above Scorpion Swamp and below Island of the Lizard King. Purists might think it much better than both of those books but the real-world setting for me takes me out of the fantasy a bit and it is insanely difficult if you’re a newcomer. It is well designed though and quite frightening if you are a child (and that’s who these books were written for, after all).
1) Deathtrap Dungeon 2) City of Thieves 3) Island of the Lizard King 4) House of Hell 5) Scorpion Swamp 6) Caverns of the Snow Witch 7) Citadel of Chaos 8) Forest of Doom 9) Warlock of Firetop Mountain 10) Starship Traveller
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Post by a moderator on Mar 8, 2020 13:50:42 GMT
Attempt 4: Rolled a Fear Score of 8 which I don’t believe is enough to have survived so forfeited. Correct (unless you exploit a minor flaw in the game design and inexplicably guess the password at 237 without any clues). Still, you could have used that doomed character to check out the odd path not taken in case you turned out to have been missing something helpful. Jonathan Green tends to have you confronting your first opponent(s) before the end of the first reference. Not useful, but this is a nice bit of attention to detail. If you'd got yourself knocked out, this is the room in which you'd have come round, hands and feet bound, and smashed the window to get some broken glass to cut your bonds. The contents of the room are, thus, just unhelpful clutter if you didn't get yourself imprisoned, but if you did, and subsequently return to this room after chatting with the ghost bride, they're the ropes with which you were bound, plus the broken window you used to facilitate your escape. It's a bit odd that finding random corpses is so much more terrifying than some of the blatantly supernatural stuff you encounter. There's worse padding at section 185 and following. Mutter mutter Skill bonus is not the same as Attack Strength bonus mutter. It came 6th in the Fighting Fantazine poll, though that was before the release of the likes of Blood of the Zombies and The Gates of Death, so it might fare differently nowadays.
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Post by babbagefart on Mar 8, 2020 16:02:29 GMT
Hey, Greenspine.
Like I said - you really know some of these books. Insanely well, indeed.
I do vaguely remember having to break glass to free myself from my bonds in that room now that you mention it. Makes me wonder if I've been a bit unkind to the book by placing it behind Island of the Lizard King in my rankings. This is so complex and ambitious (for an early book especially) whereas Lizard is kind of basic and very easy. But I guess what's done is done. With so many good books still to come I think it's safe to say that House of Hell will be a lot lower than sixth in my final list.
I'll have a look for that poll.
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Post by a moderator on Mar 8, 2020 18:15:56 GMT
The poll results were printed in issue 5, which should still be downloadable from the Fantazine website.
Part of the reason House did so well is that one of the ratings was for atmosphere, and it scored very highly on that front.
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Post by stevendoig on Mar 11, 2020 19:09:46 GMT
You did well sorting out House Of Hell. I have never managed to get anywhere with it.. Maybe some day!
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Post by babbagefart on Mar 15, 2020 16:10:36 GMT
11) Talisman of Death
Skill: 11 Stamina: 23 Luck: 8
1 30 13 247 100 125
185 – No self-respecting adventurer would ever take the direct route.
256 52 159 267 270
65 – There aren’t enough set-pieces like this in gamebooks where you have more than two or three options.
35 197
240 – Maybe I really am dumb!
257 318 351
78 – Lost the Talisman.
303 139 160 104
81 – As annoying as it is to lose Skill Points I feel that this book is generous enough that my adventure is not in any real threat. Yet.
175 85 278 286 299 304 346 336 186 150
128 – There’s a lot of imagination been put into this one…
143
98 – So my Skill and Stamina scores are back to their initials.
57 32 156 11 200 236 169 374 340 327 289 229 216
182 – Nice side-quest.
189 176 273 6 64 106 144 396
97 – I feel like this is my first difficult choice of the adventure.
165 83 149 209 291 333 276 241 217 206 239 222 105
59 – What on earth would her stats be if she hadn’t been ‘very badly hurt’?
44 54
137 – Yikes! Again, I feel as though this book is generous enough that such things can be tolerated.
16 163 235 141 171
225 – Damn it! Now my Stamina score is 6. Still don’t feel too bad since I still have a potion that can restore it.
265 301
330 – This feels genuinely like I could be at a point where the book is won or lost.
389 292 109 125
185 – So I’m going to take the exact same route I’ve already been until I end up at reference 330 again. Then I’ll male another choice.
330 284 292
109 – Same again. The book will have to either kill me or let me past.
330
248 – There we go. That’s better. 258 261 338 379 392 274 343 99 8
287 – Has anyone ever ran from anything in one of these books?
207 154 138 46 20 33 42 71 184 103 290 339 168 43
8 – What the f**k? Again!?
287 207 154 138 46 20 33 42 71 184 103 321
339 – That’s a bit of a nasty clue!
332 377 352 395 350 328 308 192 151
133 – Who could resist such an offer?
365 110 7
378 – Another set-piece with multiple options. I like it!
170 356 373 369 43
8 – Okay. Back here again. Let’s just repeat the references we’ve just been to until we reach the dragon again.
378 82 146 43
8 – And again…
378 22 269
310 – Is it even possible to not have this?
385 69 358 211 178 129 382 34 51 29 12 400
And that’s it. This is a really cool book. It’s very generous with the difficulty and most of the choices seem pretty obvious. This does perhaps make it a little easy though. It is a little frustrating dying and going back a few references – not frustrating, more pointless as it’s easy to just take the exact same route again and since there are no battles during that part of the book there’s no chance of stats dropping.
I like set-pieces where the reader is given many options. It gives the feeling of being in control. I understand that books cannot have many of these because of the references that would be chewed up from them which would result in a shorter story. That’s perhaps one of the criticisms I would have of this book though – it’s length. It feels a little on the long side but that’s perhaps down to the fact that I was going back a few times.
Overall I think it’s a very strong book in the series, especially at this early stage. I just wonder if it might have been better still had it been based in Allansia somehow.
Rankings:
I’ve enjoyed the last few books to be fair (each since Starship Traveller – which isn’t actually all that bad either) but I think this is one of the strongest. Perhaps not being as familiar with this one as I am the others made it feel a little fresher. I’m placing it just ahead of Island of the Lizard King.
1) Deathtrap Dungeon 2) City of Thieves 3) Talisman of Death 4) Island of the Lizard King 5) House of Hell 6) Scorpion Swamp 7) Caverns of the Snow Witch 8) Citadel of Chaos 9) Forest of Doom 10) Warlock of Firetop Mountain 11) Starship Traveller
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Post by babbagefart on Mar 15, 2020 16:12:52 GMT
House did so well is that one of the ratings was for atmosphere, and it scored very highly on that front. Yeah, I guess that is fair. I'll dig that poll out and have a look.
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Post by babbagefart on Mar 15, 2020 16:15:47 GMT
You did well sorting out House Of Hell. I have never managed to get anywhere with it.. Maybe some day! Map it out in full and cross off rooms that don't mean anything and eventually it can be done. I finished it with a friend back in 1995 when I was 17 and had outgrown the books but we wanted to finish it for old times' sake. When I finished it this time I had some help in that I mapped it out but also had some hints on a piece of paper inside the book from that session in '95 (although they were by no means comprehensive).
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Post by a moderator on Mar 16, 2020 0:33:46 GMT
59 – What on earth would her stats be if she hadn’t been ‘very badly hurt’? Same Skill, significantly higher Stamina. Even falling for the fake ambush to test if you're really deaf? And allowing the Minion of Death to wound you and claw away 1 Skill? And taking the full force of Thaum's fireball? Sticking with choices you know to be safe is one thing, but repeating obvious mistakes seems a bit odd. Yes, if you say the wrong thing to the Headhog at 365.
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Post by babbagefart on Mar 22, 2020 14:43:26 GMT
Even falling for the fake ambush to test if you're really deaf? And allowing the Minion of Death to wound you and claw away 1 Skill? And taking the full force of Thaum's fireball? Sticking with choices you know to be safe is one thing, but repeating obvious mistakes seems a bit odd.- Greenspine
It really is just a time thing: these books can take ages to complete given how difficult they are. This way I can 'Checkpoint' sections and just adjust my character. Playing them as a kid was much better since time wasn't such an issue - it meant the books could be fully explored.
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Post by babbagefart on Mar 22, 2020 14:44:01 GMT
12) Space Assassin
Skill: 8 Stamina: 15 Luck: 10 Armour: 11 Weapons Points: 3
Attempt 1: Killed after pushing the blue button (337) Attempt 2: Killed in battle by Micro-Helicopter (48) Attempt 3: Incinerated for not knowing the answer to the question (15) Attempt 4: Killed by plutonium pellets (378) Attempt 5: Blasted into constituent atoms for not solving the puzzle (332) Attempt 6: Died because I chose the wrong door (189)
1 39 141 58 278
77 – So far so good, easing me into the adventure.
103 192
228 – Fighting is gonna be tough with these low rolls.
264 63 134 3 172 59 135 175 266
284 – At least it still feels a little like a Fighting Fantasy adventure.
356 5 62 100 138 195
231 – Dropping my Skill from 8 to 7 in order to increase my Armour from 11 to 14? It’s a decent little gamble and the first time the book has really given me something to think about.
267 303 249 285 321 6 213 10 48
124 – Hey, this isn’t as bad as I remember.
162 29 181 162 67 181 200 308 344 254 201 237 273
102 – Bits like this suck though, and show little grasp of ideas or gamebook design. I have it mapped from last time though.
253 289 325 246 336 148 296 187 368 96
287 – Two dice actually exceeded my Skill and so I end up losing 6 Stamina. Still – it feels much less like a space adventure at this point.
324 85 182 309 50 88 164 31 107 145 126 345 219
395 – The book loves tempting me to reference 70 but I know that I get there anyway…
291 363 327 70 184 347 257 293 109 185
240 – Should have just taken the bridge again.
394 373 295 326 15
140 – It says ‘of course’ but I had to look this up online to get the answer. So obvious when you see it…
14 381 223 331 53 66 53 365 176 365 167 349 33 349 223 66
190 – Worried that might have gone on forever…
52 332
255 – Again: thank you, Google!
131 36 150 207 243 297 369 18
132 – He must be a great laugh at parties!
56 75 113 151 208 280 262 370 171 152 114 95
400 – Wow! Thanks for that detailed outro. Still – can’t be arsed reading much more of this one.
And that’s it! It’s not as bad as I remember. I thought that all of the space adventures sucked but the two I’ve played so far haven’t been quite as messy as I recall. That’s not to say that this doesn’t have its problems, of course.
For one it feels a little like a lazy entry into the series. Some of the references seem as though they’ve just been typed out as quickly as possible, following a flowchart to reach a reference quota for the section. It would have been a much tighter entry had it only been 300 references with the content on display so Chapman would have needed some more decent ideas to make this a quality entry into the series. At this point, however, Puffin were releasing loads of these and so I’m not sure if it was the publishers more responsible for the lack of quality here or the author.
There are some nice ideas though.
Rankings:
It’s been a few weeks since I played those early ones so I’m trying to compare this not only with Starship Traveller but also Forest of Doom and Warlock. I don’t think this compares with any of the entries from Citadel up so it’s where in the bottom four it should go…
Just can’t see anywhere but the very bottom of the pile.
1) Deathtrap Dungeon 2) City of Thieves 3) Talisman of Death 4) Island of the Lizard King 5) House of Hell 6) Scorpion Swamp 7) Caverns of the Snow Witch 8) Citadel of Chaos 9) Forest of Doom 10) Warlock of Firetop Mountain 11) Starship Traveller 12) Space Assassin
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Post by Peter on Mar 24, 2020 19:23:54 GMT
I believe Mr Chapman said the book wasn't ready but the publishers insisted. You are right, it has some interesting ideas, but the whole thing needs to be fleshed out more.
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Post by babbagefart on Mar 29, 2020 11:41:10 GMT
13) Freeway Fighter
Skill: 12 Stamina: 22 Luck: 11
Firepower: 9 Armour: 34
Attempt 1:
1 – The illustrations in this one are terrible.
126 274 34 167 188 66 159 341 267 195 182 227
131 – Enjoyable run-of-the-mill stuff so far.
22 203 372 95 249 206 346
157 – Lot of Luck tests in this one.
222 53 78 199 262 112 252 185
72 – Stamina lost now is Stamina gained in the next attempt. Meaning that I’m best doing all of the silly, risky stuff now.
233 246 353 371 225
197 – Love choices where all three options are tempting.
321 55 14 217 285 254 101 303 189
24 – Time for a race!
300 240 3 354 183 43 175 340 318 63 334 35 379 20
111 – I win the race! That was actually pretty easy.
156 207 28
141 – Thanks, Pete.
88 271 166 253 2 13 361 96 180 243 109 49 91 230 15
169 – Thanks, Man.
259 291 208 196 351 210 54 104 306 118 99 21 221
7 – There really are a lot of Luck tests in this book!
319 32 76 198
85 – It is 16.
107 158 67 200 102 154 376 90 147 235 40 81 218
52 – Go on, why not?
164 132 380
And that’s it. Pretty easy one but then I did roll some decent scores. Still – there won’t be many books I’ll be able to run through on the first attempt. It’s alright as a book. Feels like there’s a bit of variety what with the duels and car races and so on. There are a lot of Luck tests and Skill tests and times when fate seems to hinge on the roll of the dice but it must have worked out because I lived to tell the tale.
I know that there are much better ways of playing through and there were times when I was asked if I had an item when I didn’t but nothing too bad came of it. I just pretty much did what I always do on an adventure and try exploring everywhere while taking notes to prevent me from falling foul of the traps on the following attempts but the traps that did catch me out here weren’t bad enough to hamper my progress. It kind of feels like I just charged through this one whereas a little finesse is required usually to beat these books.
Rankings:
All-in-all it’s further experimentation with game-books and what works and what doesn’t. Over the last four entries we’ve been to a haunted house, a different world entirely, in space, and now driving through a post-apocalyptic world (one in which Ian estimated that in 2022 England would be playing the USA in the world cup in Sydney). I’m placing this one in 9th place, just behind Citadel and above Forest.
1) Deathtrap Dungeon 2) City of Thieves 3) Talisman of Death 4) Island of the Lizard King 5) House of Hell 6) Scorpion Swamp 7) Caverns of the Snow Witch 8) Citadel of Chaos 9) Freeway Fighter 10) Forest of Doom 11) Warlock of Firetop Mountain 12) Starship Traveller 13) Space Assassin
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,457
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Mar 29, 2020 21:59:00 GMT
Pretty easy one but then I did roll some decent scores. It's very easy to miss the cans of petrol you need so you did well besting it in one attempt.
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Post by babbagefart on Apr 5, 2020 7:23:51 GMT
14) Temple of Terror
Attempt 1: Died from drinking water in the desert (337). Attempt 2: Foolishly followed the footsteps (394). Attempt 3: Turned into stone by the Eye Stinger (299). Attempt 4: No Sandworm tooth to fight Leesha (282). Attempt 5: Only have three dragon artefacts (160). Attempt 6: Only have four dragon artefacts (160). Attempt 7:
Skill: 11 Stamina: 19 Luck: 10
1
34 – I have a much better idea after a few failed attempts at what spells I will need.
12 – Open Door
34
58 – Creature Sleep
34
391 – Read Symbols
34
264 – Fire
34 180 213 146 102 332 89 379 203
45 – Trouble never far away in Port Blacksand.
166 238 308 230
278 – Seems like there’s more choices in this adventure than there actually it. The coastal route only exists to eat up references.
327 28 168 107 10 99 257 129 26 217 303
196 – Nomad. Credit to Ian for keeping a journey through a desert relatively interesting as you only have so many options as a writer in these circumstances.
389 18 177 72 142 207
375 – It’s nothing that can’t be gained by simply eating a meal in a moment.
155 349 234 39 63 116 289
164 – At last I have found Vatos and survived the Desert of Skulls.
382 248 111 287 97
140 – Messenger of Death! Some good ideas in this book.
330 170 365 393
60 – Bone Dragon.
21 46 259 144 152 387 361 340 157 175 232 33 125 329 83
138 – Crystal Dragon
262 218 315 49 250 128
378 – It’s tempting but I don’t think it’s essential.
344 306 339 38 381 74 396 91 347 212
29 – Silver Dragon
59 280 244 350 190 40 19 263 202 37 269 364 161 296
181 – Thanks. Now get back to your painting…
376 206 328 141 66 110 98 300 17
216 – Weakest storeroom guardian ever!
233 64 163 298 268 326
79 – Night Horror!
309 145 198 290 178 2
302 – Ebony Dragon.
93 11 258 195
341 – Four Swords.
191 354 235 267 44 336 68 273 14 277 20 307 386 82 3 320 371 358 112 237 211 53 119 73
219 – Nothing can stop me now!!
137
186 – Golden Dragon.
47
171 – Thanks buddy. It’s a good job you were inexplicably crawling around here.
314 35 87 362 288 334
380 – Come on, Ian. Really!?!?
Attempt 8: Taken from reference 380.
400
And that’s it! This is another really cool book. If we look at the last few Livingstone entries (Island, Caverns, Freeway, and now this) I think that I prefer him when he’s writing outdoors fantasy stuff (a bit misleading given that I have Deathtrap Dungeon ranked as the best book overall) and that feeling is exemplified by this story. I think that the first half is the strongest half when travelling by boats and the short time I spend in Port Blacksand and the trawl through the Desert of Skulls but that things start to become more chore-like once I got to Vatos and started dungeon crawling, even with the innovation of the Messenger of Death.
I think it’s probably a bit unhelpful to have so many fights towards the end of the book as well. In saying that – provisions are plenty. It’s just that sometimes many fights can become boring as well as a drain on the Stamina.
I do think this is a good book though. Ian working hard at world-building. It wouldn’t be long until we started getting maps on the inside cover of books. Ian was starting to take more of a back seat by this time: releasing three books in ‘84, two in ‘85, but then just one a year for the next three years after this.
Rankings:
This would likely have been higher had the first part outdoors have gone on for longer and the indoor section shorter. But it’s still a very decent entry to the series and the first of Ian using magic.
1) Deathtrap Dungeon 2) City of Thieves 3) Talisman of Death 4) Island of the Lizard King 5) House of Hell 6) Scorpion Swamp 7) Temple of Terror 8) Caverns of the Snow Witch 9) Citadel of Chaos 10) Freeway Fighter 11) Forest of Doom 12) Warlock of Firetop Mountain 13) Starship Traveller 14) Space Assassin
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,457
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Apr 5, 2020 9:37:01 GMT
This would likely have been higher had the first part outdoors have gone on for longer and the indoor section shorter. Interestingly I feel the opposite about the book, I get a bit fed up of the overland section especially as it often ends with the sandworm. If the non-Blacksand route were viable that would at least allow for some variety in getting to Vatos and the meat of the book.
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Post by The Count on Apr 5, 2020 23:06:30 GMT
This is one of the better Livingston efforts. I would have preferred a few more sections in Vatos for exploring, maybe an alternative route that misses a dragon, and put a hammer in with one of the death letters instead of the silly random dwarf appearing with the silly hammer with multiple handles from Forest of Doom...
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Post by babbagefart on Apr 12, 2020 18:21:10 GMT
15) The Rings of Kether
Weapons: 11 Shields: 9
Skill: 9 Stamina: 18 Luck: 8
Kopechs: 5000
Attempt 1:
1 333 394 299 362 382 245
343 – Not a big fan of the space adventures but they do have the scope for some original scenarios.
265 70
51 – Like this. This is an intriguing situation where I want to know what happens either way.
2
395 – Again… Either way…
236 158 80 41 256 217
188 – Almost every choice given in this book so far has been interesting. Now we have a left/right door option? Oh well…
3 315 276 198 120 15 327 288
249 – 2x dice loss of Stamina? C’mon. Rolled 7. First loss in the game so far. I’m generally fine in these books until I get below 8.
191 113 202 163 115 222 144 66
359 – Nice little extra, that car chase.
330 281 292 28 350 389
253 – Eh, I don’t know.
214 – Well that was lucky.
58 360 282 126 87 19 370 312 273 195 39 341
185 – This is definitely not as interesting as the first half of the book.
332 293 137 59 361
322 – Damn it!!!
244 283 205 166 127 49 352 225 313 186 381
147 – Killed in battle against the book’s boss. That sucks.
Attempt 2:
400
And that’s it. A game of two halves for sure. This is infinitely better than Starship Traveller and Space Assassin (combined). There are a few flaws. I don’t think there’s a point in having the extra stats and rules regarding gun fights and ships as they aren’t used enough to make them worthwhile. I also think that at times it relies on Skill tests a bit too much. I only failed one that I can remember with a Skill of 9 but had I rolled a 7 for Skill I can think of at least 2 more times when I would have failed. Also – it says in my copy of the book to enter your Weapons Strength into the ‘Weapons Strength’ box on the adventure sheet yet no box exists. Just small things like this.
But the first half of the story is really engaging. I mentioned a couple of times in the play-through about how conflicted I was making certain decisions as I really wanted to find out what happened with either option. That’s surely the hallmark of good game-book storytelling. And that’s another thing that this book has going for it in the first half: it feels like a story. Many books fail in this regard, focusing more on the game element which in my opinion is the less important aspect of game-books. There are some great situations in this story and it is intriguing and interesting and, for 1985 and so early in the series, really original.
The second half sucks though. Chapman just runs out of steam and is plodding through it, like I often felt towards the end. Do I want to go left or right or open the door or whatever. Yawn. The second half is boring. It’s also incredibly easy and so while it would be great to revisit some of the first act I would certain quit probably around the time of the sloop chase (itself another decent part of the story).
Ranking:
If I could split the book in two I would place the second half probably between Warlock and Starship in 13th place. I would then perhaps put the first half as high as Talisman of Death. I think the first half of this book is really good. Add the parts together and I feel it has to go somewhere in the middle but certainly the best space adventure at this time. Eighth place it is.
1) Deathtrap Dungeon 2) City of Thieves 3) Talisman of Death 4) Island of the Lizard King 5) House of Hell 6) Scorpion Swamp 7) Temple of Terror 8) The Rings of Kether 9) Caverns of the Snow Witch 10) Citadel of Chaos 11) Freeway Fighter 12) Forest of Doom 13) Warlock of Firetop Mountain 14) Starship Traveller 15) Space Assassin
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Post by vastariner on Apr 13, 2020 14:15:27 GMT
Main problem for me with RoK is that unfair choice at the end, if you're faced with Blaster Babbett. I'm not sure, but I don't think there is any foreshadowing for that. Almost as unfair as the ending to House of Hell. 13) Freeway Fighter 1 – The illustrations in this one are terrible. You probably know this, but the illustrations were a rush job after the original ones were canned. I think the artist had a week. Hence their minimalist approach to scenery.
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Post by babbagefart on Apr 19, 2020 18:28:29 GMT
Main problem for me with RoK is that unfair choice at the end, if you're faced with Blaster Babbett. I'm not sure, but I don't think there is any foreshadowing for that. Almost as unfair as the ending to House of Hell. 13) Freeway Fighter 1 – The illustrations in this one are terrible. You probably know this, but the illustrations were a rush job after the original ones were canned. I think the artist had a week. Hence their minimalist approach to scenery. Hey, I didn't actually know about the illustrations but it does help explain things. Wonder if the originals can be found online.
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Post by babbagefart on Apr 19, 2020 18:31:24 GMT
16) Seas of Blood
Skill: 12 Stamina: 18 Luck: 9
Strike: 10 Strength: 20
Log:
Booty:
Attempt 1: Killed by Second Acolyte (289) Attempt 2:
1 55 68 87
135 – Slaves are as good as gold.
76 188
52 – I remember this part. I wrote an Aleff entry for the forum’s collective game-book. Wonder what ever happened to that…
111 149 274 123 211 48 370 385
101 – Having the high Skill score this time is making all the difference.
270 348 202
131 – Nice. Any chance we could play a third round?
73 262 335 63 125 199 264 289 388 228
318 – I wonder if, when he wrote this reference, Chapman just made it random or if he worked out that the optimum route to this point would give the player an odd number and so rewards them for this.
294 – Kish no doubt named after the ancient Near East city. There are loads of references to real world places in Fighting Fantasy books.
391 252 66
142 – It must be random this time.
212 326 164 152
77 – My copy of the book has a pencilled arrow pointing towards ‘215’ strongly suggesting I go to the king. There were less subtle clues written all over my House of Hell.
215 260 368 312 27 67 117 49 151 78 240 381 284 161
307 – It’s looking pretty good this time.
15 301 349 269
94 – 315 gold earned from the sale of the slaves. Pretty good market in this part of the world.
279 371 253 62 180 238 167 354
282 – Nothing to do with the book or anything but there’s a massive party going on across the road. It’ll be a later one tonight…
393 154 7 387 299 32 213
298 – This is a much better idea for a final boss than just a straight Skill 56, Stamina 736 enemy. Here we go. The Cyclops (C) has Stamina 16, the same as me (M).
206 – C (14), M (16)
305 – C (12), M (16)
347 – C (10), M (14)
266 – C (8), M (12)
156 – C (6), M (12)
139 – C (4), M (10)
206 – C (2), M (10) I know I’ve won because it’s on a loop now so a quick look reveals that a kick in the armpit will kill it.
305 – C (0), M (10) Killed by a kick to the armpit. You gotta go somehow.
311 36
400 – I have twice what I need.
And that’s it. Finished in 89 references. I tend to find that most of the ‘novelty’ books can be completed in less than 100 references whereas the more serious ones are more likely around 125 or so, with some of Ian Livingston’s more tedious books forcing the reader to turn to 170 (and sometimes even more if memory serves me) references in order to reach the end.
I like this book. There’s plenty of variety and action and different locations and so on. There’s much that could be done with the premise. I prefer outdoor environments (even though Deathtrap Dungeon is my highest ranked book at the moment) and love the island hopping that happens in this one. It would have been nice if you actually got to know one of your crew a bit better, like a second-in-command, that helped you make big decisions. Might have added a little more to it. He might have even been killed at the end. There is a whole crew with you but it does feel as though you’re on your own at times.
It’s also quite hard to perceive distances. There is a sense of epic-ness in that it takes a long time for the ship to sail to the various destinations but I have problems feeling as though the Inland Sea is as vast as the timeframes suggest. I think Andrew Chapman had a moan at the way Jackson and Livingstone incorporated the Inland Sea into their own universe as he had his own plans for it in another series.
Is it the same guy who wrote this and Rings of Kether back to back? Good effort on both but might help explain why they each feel a little rushed.
Rankings:
Despite my grumbles I do like this one and think it adds something a little different to the (admittedly quite diverse) 11 – 20 period in the books’ history. It’s just a shame he never wrote a final draft. 7th place for it…
1) Deathtrap Dungeon 2) City of Thieves 3) Talisman of Death 4) Island of the Lizard King 5) House of Hell 6) Scorpion Swamp 7) Seas of Blood 8) Temple of Terror 9) The Rings of Kether 10) Caverns of the Snow Witch 11) Citadel of Chaos 12) Freeway Fighter 13) Forest of Doom 14) Warlock of Firetop Mountain 15) Starship Traveller 16) Space Assassin
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Post by daredevil123 on Apr 19, 2020 19:46:58 GMT
400 – I have twice what I need. You mean you finished with 1600 gold pieces? That seems impossible from what I remember of the book but maybe I was just bad at it...
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