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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 15, 2013 1:25:00 GMT
From TUFFF... Sometimes i come across moments in FF, that are just so clumsily made or ask for more suspence of disbelief than i've got. These are my top pick of the moments, where i've put a FF book down, saying
"No! Stuff like this doesn't happen!" Crypt of the Sorcerer
Finding the two halves of the rod of paralysis, which are seperated by hundreds of miles.
Getting asked what the price of a warhammer is in Blacksand.
Finding the code for Razaak's crypt in a rhyme, carved into a random boulder, which is standing in the middle of nowhere! Eye of the Dragon
Plenty, but the worst one is at the very beginning, where the player character agrees to gulp down a vial of alleged poison! Uhm, dude, you didn't suspect he just wanted to kill you and take your stuff? Battleblade Warrior
When you are in the company of Cathy, you spot four cowled guys riding towards you on giant lizards.
If you decide to approach them, they will unveil the faces, revealing that they are in fact...THE CAARTH! Poor Cathy faints from this surprice, and you are both staked to the ground.
You may also decide to hide from them. If you do so, Cathy will shout that they are...THE CAARTH! and charge at them. At the next paragraph, they unveil their faces, revealing that they are actually...THE CAARTH! What a twist! Poor Cathy realises that her guess was correct, and she is so shocked at this surprise that she faints. You are both left staked to the ground.
This book often forces the player to follow a specific path, but this is the worst i've come across. Definitely one of the worst cases of lazy writing. If you are wondering why i haven't mentioned any moments from Skylord, it is because i don't own that book right now.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 15, 2013 1:25:35 GMT
From TUFFF... Well, depending on your viewpoint, Sky Lord has either no continuity breaks or is itself one giant one. The whole Cathy and the Caarth thing is hilariously badly done. I don't think she was really cut out to be a warrior, poor girl. I think the demands of the Oracle in Armies of Death are horribly contrived. I think you can find a key in Return to Firetop Mountain which unlocks a door miles and miles away. To quote Harry Hill "What are the chances of that happening, eh?"
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 15, 2013 1:27:02 GMT
From TUFFF... The Warlock of Firetop Mountain: At last you confront the Warlock himself. But what will you use to give yourself the edge in the impending battle? A weapon? A magical item? Or a lump of cheese? The Keep of the Lich-Lord: Taverns with absurd names that happen to be the titles of other books by the authors. And the zombie whose name is clearly derived from one of the authors' names. Star Strider and Siege of Sardath: The 'Duh! Your character knows that that's a stupid thing to do!' moments. Legend of Zagor: You find the merchant whose name you were told is Cohsturre, and greet him as 'Three-Eyes Haag'.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 15, 2013 1:27:43 GMT
From TUFFF... I think in The Seven Serpents if you can't find a way to cross the lake your character just gives up on the quest because he can't face the thought of walking round it. And while we're on Sorcery! the whole premise of the North Gate spell is ludicrous.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 15, 2013 1:28:09 GMT
From TUFFF... I think I've done this in my stories not because I am lazy but because I actually meant to do it. Yeah I know, it looks like the author ran out of ideas and just conjured something out of his a**e. The more beautiful and pure FF is – the more satisfying it is to corrupt it.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 15, 2013 1:29:32 GMT
From TUFFF... Given that the idiot Nicodemus tells you on the outskirts of Blacksand that you only need 2 of the 3 items to crush into Bone's eyes, then why not have a punt if you happen to have gained only a couple? Or, even better, make three sets of mixtures. Besides which I can't suss out why, in a powder, adding a third element negates the other two...
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 15, 2013 1:30:35 GMT
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 15, 2013 1:32:20 GMT
From TUFFF... I think in The Seven Serpents if you can't find a way to cross the lake your character just gives up on the quest because he can't face the thought of walking round it. And while we're on Sorcery! the whole premise of the North Gate spell is ludicrous. Both of these I agree 100%. On the subject of Kháre why go in at all? A river so big is bound to have boats and fishermen, just pay someone a gold piece to take you across. If the author really wanted to write about Khare why not have the hero grabbed by slavers and taken to the city. To walk in of free will is madness. My FF reviews: z3.invisionfree.com/Orc__Goblin_Warpath/index.php?showtopic=29374
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 15, 2013 1:36:02 GMT
From TUFFF... Eye of the Dragon Plenty, but the worst one is at the very beginning, where the player character agrees to gulp down a vial of alleged poison! Uhm, dude, you didn't suspect he just wanted to kill you and take your stuff? I definitely felt the same during my play-through, which left me thinking that the character was obviously a bit on the dim side. In general, a lot of Eye of the Dragon was like this, because it's all set in a dungeon which just happens to be beneath the Forest of Doom, which we'd never even heard of at all, and coincidentally wasn't even mentioned at all in 'Forest of Doom' at all. Which is the one I'll mention. As I'm sure some will remember, when you reach the end of Forest of Doom, it gives you the chance to trudge back to the beginning of the game in order to find two parts of the hammer in order to win the game. Which is a lovely idea in theory. In practice, it means that you can rescue some poor peasant from a vicious trap on your first travel through the forest, only to see the exact same peasant in the exact same trap all over again as you trudge your way back through a second time... "Did you get caught AGAIN?" Fighting for your Fantasy - Remember the gamebooks of your past, one adventure at a time - fightyourfantasy.blogspot.co.uk/
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 15, 2013 1:36:40 GMT
From TUFFF... A valid point on the whole, but the example you give is probably the most plausible repeatable occurrence in the book, as the peasant in the trap is actually a thief seeking to rob anyone naïve enough to help him. If he doesn't realise that the person he can hear approaching is the same one he conned the other day, he might well attempt the same trick again. If you'd spoken of the absurdity of getting to kill the same Goblin again and retrieving an extra hammer handle from him, that would have been a much better illustration of the problem.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 15, 2013 1:38:44 GMT
From TUFFF... What's more absurd is a dwarven army can't waylay anything within easy reach to get their stupid hammer back. Yet again it's down to Muggins here. As far as Khare goes, I got the impression that it was the only way across the river, in that it was cliffed most of the way up and that was the one ford. Doesn't explain why you couldn't sail down the Jabaji or just around the coastline. After all, the merchants must follow a circular route - into Khare from the east, into the city, down the Jabaji (they can't go back through the gate) and back via the Daddu Ley/Yadu path. Presumably the top end is a bit too jungly. But surely some intelligence must have sussed that, once in, you can't get out? Other than through that route? And if you're a wizard about to go on the most perilous mission ever, wouldn't you take at least SOME of the required spell items? A flute, at least, some Yellow Powder, a Ring of Green Metal and so on? Rather than just hope you find them en route? But for some inane reason you cannot pick up Pebbles or Sand when you find them, but you have to be told specifically? I think I get the explanation for the theft of the CoK from Analand. It's because its inhabitants and government are monumentally moronic. No wonder they had it last. As for the freak happenstances that occur, I put that down to Suma.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 15, 2013 1:39:33 GMT
From TUFFF... This reminds of a brilliant episode of Buffy where they end up discussing types of kryptonite(oslt) and Buffy interrupts saying guys reality. Supremely ironical.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 15, 2013 1:43:52 GMT
From TUFFF... As I'm sure some will remember, when you reach the end of Forest of Doom, it gives you the chance to trudge back to the beginning of the game in order to find two parts of the hammer in order to win the game. Which is a lovely idea in theory. By the way, why going all the way around the forest? Why don't you just turn around and go back into the forest immediately? I think I get the explanation for the theft of the CoK from Analand. It's because its inhabitants and government are monumentally moronic. No wonder they had it last. So true, what you said about Sorcery. Thanks for the laugh.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 15, 2013 1:44:37 GMT
From TUFFF... On the subject of dungeon crawls like DD, EyeofD and RTFM, and House of Hell for that matter - why when faced with a choice of opening a door or walking on, can't you just open the door and poke your head round? With most of these (particularly Livingstone gamebooks) you feel you have no option but to go in to every single room in case you miss anything. But why do you have to march straight in to whatever horrors await you? I'd have liked a few more: Do you want to really slowly open the door just a crack, have a slight glimpse inside and then run like hell down the corridor if it looks dangerous option?
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 15, 2013 1:46:32 GMT
From TUFFF... On the subject of dungeon crawls like DD, EyeofD and RTFM, and House of Hell for that matter - why when faced with a choice of opening a door or walking on, can't you just open the door and poke your head round? With most of these (particularly Livingstone gamebooks) you feel you have no option but to go in to every single room in case you miss anything.
But why do you have to march straight in to whatever horrors await you? I'd have liked a few more: Do you want to really slowly open the door just a crack, have a slight glimpse inside and then run like hell down the corridor if it looks dangerous option? Because what works in a tabletop RPG, doesn't work well in a book. Can you imagine how many more paragraphs that would take up? When authors write gamebooks and want to tell you a bit about a room, they give you hints (the door is slightly ajar; you can hear distinct sounds from the room; the door is made an archway instead etc.) so that you'd be curious enough to find out for yourself. There'd be little point in traps, dangers, and other surprises if you were well aware of them beforehand. Another aspect might be the Time element; you can't waste to much time being overly cautious. Adventuring is all about balancing exploration with a certain degree of risk. Two Words
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 15, 2013 1:47:45 GMT
From TUFFF... On the subject of dungeon crawls like DD, EyeofD and RTFM, and House of Hell for that matter - why when faced with a choice of opening a door or walking on, can't you just open the door and poke your head round? With most of these (particularly Livingstone gamebooks) you feel you have no option but to go in to every single room in case you miss anything. Opening a door and not going through just isn't the done thing. The reason why is no clearer than the origins of some of the odd behaviours we treat as not just normal but quasi-obligatory, but it's too deeply ingrained for your average adventurer to ignore. Consider the door with the sliding panel at DD section 197: because the panel allows you to look into the room beyond without opening the door, you can peek at the room's contents and then decide whether or not to open the door. There'd be no need to have the panel if people on Titan were able to conceive of opening a door and not immediately going through it.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 15, 2013 1:49:41 GMT
From TUFFF... Some further thoughts on Kharé. Given that there must be some relationships between Analand and the city - there's a gate open onto a road there, you meet people on it going from K to A - surely someone should have sussed out in advance that you needed to get the spell gate key? And all those Kharéans can't find it out yet you can in two days? Worse than that, you go through the temple kissing ritual, and you get to ask one of three questions. Surely an obvious question would be "what is the spell to get through the gate?" Or something along the lines of "how can I get to Mampang, in excruciating detail?" And even even worse. You get the CoK and you get flown back by the Birdmen. If they're that anti-Archmage, why don't a load of them fly to Analand, pick up a hero or thousand, and drop them into the fortress at night?
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 15, 2013 1:50:49 GMT
From TUFFF... You get the CoK and you get flown back by the Birdmen. If they're that anti-Archmage, why don't a load of them fly to Analand, pick up a hero or thousand, and drop them into the fortress at night? Only a small group of the Birdmen are anti-Archmage, and until he's dead, they're having to keep a low profile. There's actually a bit in TCoK where you can summon them to your aid while the Archmage is still alive. They promptly get massacred, and you wind up killed by guards.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 15, 2013 1:51:23 GMT
From TUFFF... There is something mentioned in Khare about the river being too dangerous to cross without passing through the city, but I agree it doesn't make much sense. Why couldn't you hitch a ride on a trading boat from Analand, and sneak through the city on one of these? Maybe Jackson could have added a vital task or person you had to meet in Khare who had crucial information before you could go on to Mampang? (Like Nicodemus in CofT). That would have made it a bit more plausible.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 15, 2013 1:52:33 GMT
From TUFFF... Maybe Jackson could have added a vital task or person you had to meet in Khare who had crucial information before you could go on to Mampang? (Like Nicodemus in CofT). That would have made it a bit more plausible. Yes, this is a much noticed problem. I think your suggestion is an excellent one - surely he could have thought of some reason why you had to visit Khare specifically.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 15, 2013 2:00:59 GMT
From TUFFF... Not being allowed to take obvious options is the worst thing. I was browsing through Scorpion Swamp recently - not playing properly but effectively reading as a cheaty servant of Grimslatochukker - and came across the Pool Beast from the cover. Magic seems like a good move as it looks pretty tough to fight. Now, even before looking up the options I had a quick think through. It's in a lot of water, so Ice is obviously the best option. Illusion might work, depending on what you do with it. Failing that, maybe Curse would be effective or at a pinch Fear since almost any animal has enough brains to be scared. Anything else would be idiotic: It's too stupid to have Friends and it's not a plant so only a complete moron would try Growth or Wither, which leaves Bless and Fire. You have no reason to make it stronger and it's soaking wet so it can't burn. *Turns to 34* Will you try... -Fear? -Fire? -Wither? Um. OK. Fear then... It's too stupid to know the meaning of fear. Fight it. Huh. Fire then I suppose... No, dufus, it's wet. Fight it. What?? Maybe it means use Wither on a nearby tree which will bonk it on the head. Use Wither... No, dumbass, it's not a plant. Why are you using a plant spell when it's not a plant? Fight it. Paragraphs well used there. I was quite grateful it let me use my sword after that - I was half-expecting... Tentacles lunge towards you. Will you... -Bare your buttocks? -Punch yourself in the face?
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 15, 2013 2:03:27 GMT
From TUFFF... Tentacles lunge towards you. Will you... -Bare your buttocks? -Punch yourself in the face? Otherwise known as the Sky Lord approach.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Nov 19, 2013 19:38:59 GMT
Eating provisions is obviously a point where the FF system creaks a bit. Being able to get from being near death to quite healthy just by having triple helpings doesn't make much sense. (Nor does being able to stay in perfect health for a week on one or two meals.)
It's easy to ignore most of the time as Eating steak –> healed sword cuts just about makes sense if you can gloss over rest and time.
Sometimes though... there's a point in Master of Chaos where you have a 30 second break in fighting and you're told you just have time to 'wolf down a meal'. Seriously? How can that result in anything except fighting with heartburn?
Shanzikuul returns ...and snarls with frustration as he sees your wounds have closed. "So! You were cunning enough to bring a ham sandwich were you? Enjoy it, leaky-boots, it shall be your last."
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Post by paltogue on Nov 19, 2013 20:00:50 GMT
Sometimes though... there's a point in Master of Chaos where you have a 30 second break in fighting and you're told you just have time to 'wolf down a meal'. Seriously? How can that result in anything except fighting with heartburn? That just made me laugh out loud! Brilliant and definitely what would happen to me.
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Post by hynreck on Nov 19, 2013 20:39:08 GMT
Shanzikuul returns ...and snarls with frustration as he sees your wounds have closed. "So! You were cunning enough to bring a ham sandwich were you? Enjoy it, leaky-boots, it shall be your last." For my part I chuckled at this. ...and my girlfriend doesn't understand why I always carry a ham sandwich in my pocket, just in case.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Mar 13, 2014 13:56:22 GMT
Just been reminded of something which belongs here. FF books are all built around the idea that YOU are the hero. The fate of the world (or whatever) depends on YOU. But sometimes it seems that YOU like to kick the fourth wall down. So for example in City of Thieves I believe you get pickpocketed by someone and you get to choose what you lose… I’ve never been pickpocketed, but I’m pretty sure that’s not how it works. You don’t sort-of-notice enough to work something rubbish to the top of your pocket as the thief delves into it, whilst subconsciously wishing you could notice a bit more so that you could punch them in the face. The flipside of that are items where you’re told that they are cursed in some way but your character doesn’t know this and so doesn’t think to get rid of them. I think there’s an example of that in CoT too: the copper scorpion brooch? I can’t remember whether it just damages you once or whether you continue to carry it oblivious to ongoing damage. Is there even a chance to get rid of the brooch that you don’t know you want rid of to the pickpocket that you don’t know is stealing from you? That would be freaky. (Late thanks for comments above btw )
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Mar 13, 2014 14:07:27 GMT
Given that the idiot Nicodemus tells you on the outskirts of Blacksand that you only need 2 of the 3 items to crush into Bone's eyes, then why not have a punt if you happen to have gained only a couple? Or, even better, make three sets of mixtures. Besides which I can't suss out why, in a powder, adding a third element negates the other two...Thinking about this, I suppose it's possible that Nicodemus remembers black pearls as being relevant because they're actually the antidote for the poison powder. They are the only substance which would negate the effects. Of course he doesn't say that, but it reminds me that in DotD all animated skeletons are sustained by having black pearls for eyes. Is that a traditional idea or just one that Steve Jackson (US) came up with? It reminds me of the scene from the Simpsons where a French chef intends to poison Homer with an éclair but nearly makes an elementary mistake:
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Post by hynreck on Mar 13, 2014 18:04:50 GMT
That chef catched that one in the nick of time!
As regard toward the breaking of the fourth wall of having to choose what's being stolen from you (which I admit is pretty silly), I prefer when the author tells you something more akin to: you loose the third item that was written on your inventory, or something similar.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,453
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Mar 31, 2014 15:02:10 GMT
Haha - that made me actually LOL in work, almightymudworm.
A few others that spring to mind: - Deathtrap Dungeon: Why can't I use the ring of wishes in 99% of the situations where it would prove useful? - Return to Firetop Mountain: It's odd that my inner voice may scream "Ring the bell!" even if I'm not carrying any bells. - Temple of Terror: Rather than sending the Messenger of Death to hide scary letters in out of the way places, why didn't Malbordus send someone to help him look for the dragon artifacts? - Deathtrap Dungeon and Trial of Champions - Why don't any of your rivals pick anything up? Don't they know they're in an Ian Livingstone book?
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Post by philsadler on Apr 22, 2017 5:47:20 GMT
- Deathtrap Dungeon and Trial of Champions - Why don't any of your rivals pick anything up? Don't they know they're in an Ian Livingstone book? Haha! I always wondered that! That's why in my very own 'Deathtrap' I would have the reader come across empty boxes, fight scenes or obviously ransacked rooms. You can't write like that too much though because although it adds to the 'realistic' atmosphere, too much of it would be boring for the reader.
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