|
Post by tyrion on Jul 12, 2020 10:34:53 GMT
Last round battleblade warrior was eliminated. I think there is an obvious contender this round, but we'll see.
|
|
kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,437
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
Member is Online
|
Post by kieran on Jul 12, 2020 15:14:36 GMT
Torn between two polar opposite books here.
On the one hand is Fangs of Fury, a book with lots of fun things to do that really invites exploration. It suffers from weak writing and characters.
On the other hand is Slaves of the Abyss, one of the most interesting and best written books of the series but a linear design that punishes any attempt to go off the prescribed route.
Interestingly both have a time track though Fangs is better utilised.
So in a contest between GAMEbook and gameBOOK, I'll vote for the latter as being slightly weaker.
|
|
vagsancho
Knight
Posts: 809
Favourite Gamebook Series: CRYPT OF THE SORCERER
|
Post by vagsancho on Jul 12, 2020 15:31:59 GMT
Torn between two polar opposite books here. On the one hand is Fangs of Fury, a book with lots of fun things to do that really invites exploration. It suffers from weak writing and characters. On the other hand is Slaves of the Abyss, one of the most interesting and best written books of the series but a linear design that punishes any attempt to go off the prescribed linear route. Interestingly both have a time track though Fangs is better utilised. So in a contest between GAMEbook and gameBOOK, I'll vote for the latter as being slightly weaker. Slaves of the Abyss is in my top 10. Would be in my top 5 if Bythos would be a more interesting character.
|
|
|
Post by The Count on Jul 14, 2020 0:54:08 GMT
Though I suspect it will survive, Portal of Evil does the least for me from the remainder.
I'm surprised the brilliant Slaves of the Abyss is getting votes already.
|
|
|
Post by Wilf on Jul 14, 2020 8:05:22 GMT
I'm surprised the brilliant Slaves of the Abyss is getting votes already. Especially when the competition is so poor.
|
|
kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,437
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
Member is Online
|
Post by kieran on Jul 14, 2020 10:22:54 GMT
I'm surprised the brilliant Slaves of the Abyss is getting votes already. I think the first decision in the book is illustrative of my beef with Slaves: You're given three options on how you'd like to help the city. All sound fun but only one is viable. Choose either of the other two and you get one chance to change your mind before heading to an abrupt instant death. Of course, changing your mind still dooms you in the long run since you miss a key item. And that is how much of the book feels, an illusion of choice. Choosing wrong either kills you instantly or skips you ahead in the narrative where you will have missed some essential item or information. There's only one real false path that does more than skip you ahead (the compulsive liar). Basically the way to beat the book is to find the path that lets you do everything. It makes it pretty tedious whenever you fail and have to try again. Still, great read.
|
|
|
Post by Wilf on Jul 14, 2020 12:33:38 GMT
Normally, I'd be put off by a book that's this linear in structure, but Slaves is just so very well written and atmospheric, with a really imaginative setting for the final encounter. Bob Harvey's art is (as always) excellent, too, and adds to the doomy feel of the story. It's one of my favourite FFs.
|
|
|
Post by The Count on Jul 15, 2020 0:07:58 GMT
I'm surprised the brilliant Slaves of the Abyss is getting votes already. I think the first decision in the book is illustrative of my beef with Slaves: You're given three options on how you'd like to help the city. All sound fun but only one is viable. Choose either of the other two and you get one chance to change your mind before heading to an abrupt instant death. Of course, changing your mind still dooms you in the long run since you miss a key item. And that is how much of the book feels, an illusion of choice. Choosing wrong either kills you instantly or skips you ahead in the narrative where you will have missed some essential item or information. There's only one real false path that does more than skip you ahead (the compulsive liar). Basically the way to beat the book is to find the path that lets you do everything. It makes it pretty tedious whenever you fail and have to try again. Still, great read. Yet choosing the wrong path feels right until you get to an instant death, and even then its not obvious until you see there isn't a further paragraph to turn to for some of them... I have minor issues with the spitting fly, but I believe you can still complete the book without it. Otherwise, it is one of the best pieces of writing within the FF universe for sheer atmosphere - and is one of the few books that are a joy to replay despite being frustratingly linear as you need to read every word to make the right choice instead of it being handed to you on a plate, or having to make a 50/50 roll
|
|
|
Post by vastariner on Jul 15, 2020 6:57:06 GMT
I think there is linear, and there is LINEAR. It's one thing where you have a single-path adventure because of things like all the artifacts needed being on it or because the sidetracks are rather dull or no different to the successful track in feel. Where it's not a puzzle, it's mechanical.
SotA has the dead-ends as part of the puzzle. The entire story does not emerge until you have made unsuccessful approaches. You gradually "get" the spells, which ones are useful, the confusion of the situation. It is like a computer game, in that you get so far on first go, know the technique for the second, get further, and so on. As opposed to something like, say, DD, where it's pretty much pure chance whether you get the right path, and your experience of the book is not enhanced by the wrong path.
|
|
kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,437
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
Member is Online
|
Post by kieran on Jul 15, 2020 7:08:32 GMT
As opposed to something like, say, DD, where it's pretty much pure chance whether you get the right path, and your experience of the book is not enhanced by the wrong path. I disagree on this point. The wrong paths in DD are quite involving and it's not clear when replaying where you went wrong. You can experiment a bit and have a very different experience next time out, gradually working out by the process of elimination which paths are better. Slaves on the other hand requires replaying the same bits over and over until it all comes together. Design-wise I prefer DD. Still, I get why people like Slaves. I don't dislike it by any means but I prefer all the remaining books in this poll - I seem to be a bit odd in thinking this a strong period for the series!
|
|
kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,437
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
Member is Online
|
Post by kieran on Jul 15, 2020 7:27:33 GMT
Yet choosing the wrong path feels right until you get to an instant death I must admit for the longest time I thought you had to go straight to the forest after witnessing the army. It took me forever to work out you should rather counter-intuitively go back to Kallamehr first (actually, I only figured it out from noticing the abundance of illustrations which seemed to be city-based and therefore realising a return to Kallamehr must occur at some stage). However once you go back to Kallamehr and figure out what to do there, you end up going to the forest anyway. The forest isn't a wrong path as such, you just can't do it too early.
The forest actually bugs me too. Rather than having three mutually-exclusive encounters to choose from which would have increased replayability, you have to do them all and your only choice is the order to do them in - and there is a particular order you should aim for.
|
|
|
Post by Wilf on Jul 15, 2020 8:21:23 GMT
I must admit for the longest time I thought you had to go straight to the forest after witnessing the army. It took me forever to work out you should rather counter-intuitively go back to Kallamehr first (actually, I only figured it out from noticing the abundance of illustrations which seemed to be city-based and therefore realising a return to Kallamehr must occur at some stage). However once you go back to Kallamehr and figure out what to do there, you end up going to the forest anyway. The forest isn't a wrong path as such, you just can't do it too early.
Ha ha! Yep, me too - it took me several attempts to realise I had to do that!
|
|
|
Post by vastariner on Jul 15, 2020 8:56:39 GMT
As opposed to something like, say, DD, where it's pretty much pure chance whether you get the right path, and your experience of the book is not enhanced by the wrong path. I disagree on this point. The wrong paths in DD are quite involving and it's not clear when replaying where you went wrong. You can experiment a bit and have a very different experience next time out, gradually working out by the process of elimination which paths are better. Slaves on the other hand requires replaying the same bits over and over until it all comes together. Design-wise I prefer DD. What I mean is that the wrong paths in DD are still paths in a dungeon where your aim is to escape with goods. The encounters are of course different (and I think the encounters in the book are some of Livingstone's best - the light with the faces for instance) but they're the sort that you could swap over with successful path encounters without making an overall difference to the adventure.
Whereas SotA has a brilliant Fog of War approach that can require multiple goes to unveil. There's something of the randomness in real life that you can make the "right" decisions yet still end up losing. You're not on a journey that guides you to success; you have to force it yourself, as in real life, by making decisions with no clues as to what to do.
|
|
|
Post by bloodbeasthandler on Jul 16, 2020 6:58:22 GMT
I must admit for the longest time I thought you had to go straight to the forest after witnessing the army. It took me forever to work out you should rather counter-intuitively go back to Kallamehr first (actually, I only figured it out from noticing the abundance of illustrations which seemed to be city-based and therefore realising a return to Kallamehr must occur at some stage). However once you go back to Kallamehr and figure out what to do there, you end up going to the forest anyway. The forest isn't a wrong path as such, you just can't do it too early.
Ha ha! Yep, me too - it took me several attempts to realise I had to do that! Me three but... Paul Mason and Steve Williams did put some clues in there to encourage a return to the city I think. The mission from para 1 is to SCOUT to the east. What use is a scout who finds the target and then doesn't report it to the headquarters? Perhaps more noticeable though, para 53 when you first find the army - '...surely Kallamehr should be forewarned: evacuation may be the only means of survival' But no, i missed this repeatedly when I played it in 88 or 89 and in true FF style went off to counter Bythos' army immediately.
|
|
|
Post by vastariner on Jul 16, 2020 10:56:57 GMT
Ha ha! Yep, me too - it took me several attempts to realise I had to do that! Me three but... Paul Mason and Steve Williams did put some clues in there to encourage a return to the city I think. The mission from para 1 is to SCOUT to the east. What use is a scout who finds the target and then doesn't report it to the headquarters? Perhaps more noticeable though, para 53 when you first find the army - '...surely Kallamehr should be forewarned: evacuation may be the only means of survival' But no, i missed this repeatedly when I played it in 88 or 89 and in true FF style went off to counter Bythos' army immediately. On top of which, it is a rare instance in FF where you should not do the self-aggrandizement thing of being the ONE person to save the world, but instead forgoes the chance of individual glory for the common good.
|
|
|
Post by The Count on Jul 16, 2020 21:55:57 GMT
I think there is linear, and there is LINEAR. It's one thing where you have a single-path adventure because of things like all the artifacts needed being on it or because the sidetracks are rather dull or no different to the successful track in feel. Where it's not a puzzle, it's mechanical. SotA has the dead-ends as part of the puzzle. The entire story does not emerge until you have made unsuccessful approaches. You gradually "get" the spells, which ones are useful, the confusion of the situation. It is like a computer game, in that you get so far on first go, know the technique for the second, get further, and so on. As opposed to something like, say, DD, where it's pretty much pure chance whether you get the right path, and your experience of the book is not enhanced by the wrong path. This sums up why I like Slaves and find DD to be overrated - and that doesn'teven take into account the far superior writing and atmosphere in the former. Finally managing to beat SotA was incredibly satisfying - I remember extending my library loan on it so I could keep trying.
|
|