Would the Sorcery series be better if it was wizard only?

[johnbrawn1972]

Many times I have wondered if Sorcery would be so much better if it was wizard only and a more adult version of Citadel of Chaos.

Nobody blinks because they are asked to use magic in Citadel of Chaos.

The reply would be the magic system in Sorcery requires some learning but this is entirely in keeping with the more adult writing.

I remember being an eleven year old trying to understand what luck bereft meant.

One possible solution might have been the tried and tested main six spells could have been options but the more esoteric spells could have given you an advantage both in terms of stamina and gameplay.

[sylas]

The Sorcery! magic system is a unique one and is beloved because of it. It's not as easy to learn as Citadel of Chaos but it's definitely more interesting and inspired because it requires preparation on your part (for the spells that need components) and comes with a risk of failure. You literally have to learn magic gradually to become a better wizard which makes it more rewarding when you remember something correctly, whereas in Citadel, you already know how to use everything.

I must admit, I initially do not enjoy Sorcery! in my youth as I felt it was TOO complex when compared to the other FF books available at the time. I just wanted to get on and play instead of putting in the effort of memorizing a few spells. Playing as a Warrior, though definitely doable, is far less rewarding, however, as it feels like any other adventure and you don't get to do any of the 'cool' things that you come across when unintentionally reading paragraphs regarding spellcasting. On the other hand, if the Warrior option wasn't included, I might not have read the books at all. It was only when I was a bit older that I really started to appreciate how well the Sorcery! series was designed and how much more fun playing as a Wizard was.

So, to answer, changing the magic system or taking out the Warrior path would be a detriment to the book. Steve Jackson got everything right with the design and balance of the series (apart from the Manticore). How much the reader understands and enjoys it could just be an age thing.

[misomiso]

I think the answer is no...however the books would definately be more elegant if designed just for a Wizard.

Giving the player the option of how to play is a really good move as it gives you a lot of agency, and also two ways to play each book. Also as the Magic system requires a lot of thought and some time, somebody who just wants to play through the books can still get something out of the product.

But yes if the books were all JUST designed for a wizard to play then they would be a lot more cohesive.

The main thing I would change is actually the Wizard's skill roll - You can still get a high skill quite easily and have an average starting skill of 7.5. I would balance the book around 4 + 1d3, or maybe 5 +1d3. Much harder!

[CharlesX]

Misimiso puts it well above, that you can play as a Warrior effectively lets you play the gamebook in two different manners, and even if playing as a Warrior might be slightly less appealing it still adds to the gamebook, where simply having one play a Wizard throughout would only be of slight technical benefit.

   I would say a Sorcery!-style series where you only play as a Wizard could be executed differently, perhaps you could play as an Elf of some variety, maybe with a choice of skills such as archery, swordfighting, agility, wood lore and so on. Of course such complexity could easily be to the detriment of the gamebook, or work better in another series.

   I've no idea either whether the Sorcery! App gives you the choice of playing a Wizard or Warrior? I would think a computer game would lend itself more to being a Wizard, with fight after fight being unappealling without the description of a gamebook and the big advantage PCs can cast magic more smoothly.

[misomiso]

If I remember correctly the app only lets you play as a Wizard, but you still have to do lots of fighting and the fighting system is a lot different so it's not really a comparison.

A Skill selection would be interesting but I don't think the game book could take TWO 'subsystems' of rules; it either needs to be skills or spells, as they are kind of the same thing in that you have to use a skill/spell to pass certain obstacles.

Heart of Ice has the best skill system I've ever seen in a game book, while Secrets of Salamonis comes a close second.

[slloyd14]

Aug 10, 2023 7:03:46 GMT misomiso said:

If I remember correctly the app only lets you play as a Wizard, but you still have to do lots of fighting and the fighting system is a lot different so it's not really a comparison.

A Skill selection would be interesting but I don't think the game book could take TWO 'subsystems' of rules; it either needs to be skills or spells, as they are kind of the same thing in that you have to use a skill/spell to pass certain obstacles.

Heart of Ice has the best skill system I've ever seen in a game book, while Secrets of Salamonis comes a close second.

A skill selection could work if skills/items and spell effects overlap.

For example, the warrior could use a simple shield which would have the same effect as the WOK spell. Maybe the strength skill could be the same effect as the PEP spell. Maybe the warrior can hit with more precise blows which is the same as the RAZ spell. The languages skill can emulate the RAP(?) Spell. Jump skill could be ZEN (sometimes) and see stealth could do what the YAZ spell does (sometimes). On the plus side, skills don't cost components and drain stamina but they might not be as effective as magic so they won't be used in every situation (jump might not work when trying to lift up the earth serpent for example).

[CharlesX]

Aug 10, 2023 16:09:45 GMT slloyd14 said:

Aug 10, 2023 7:03:46 GMT misomiso said:

If I remember correctly the app only lets you play as a Wizard, but you still have to do lots of fighting and the fighting system is a lot different so it's not really a comparison.

A Skill selection would be interesting but I don't think the game book could take TWO 'subsystems' of rules; it either needs to be skills or spells, as they are kind of the same thing in that you have to use a skill/spell to pass certain obstacles.

Heart of Ice has the best skill system I've ever seen in a game book, while Secrets of Salamonis comes a close second.

A skill selection could work if skills/items and spell effects overlap.

For example, the warrior could use a simple shield which would have the same effect as the WOK spell. Maybe the strength skill could be the same effect as the PEP spell. Maybe the warrior can hit with more precise blows which is the same as the RAZ spell. The languages skill can emulate the RAP(?) Spell. Jump skill could be ZEN (sometimes) and see stealth could do what the YAZ spell does (sometimes). On the plus side, skills don't cost components and drain stamina but they might not be as effective as magic so they won't be used in every situation (jump might not work when trying to lift up the earth serpent for example).

That might require some bookkeeping and so be more effective on a computer game. I say it's almost ironic several FF games had tape versions when gaming was primitive and half-novelty instead of later on, when people more likely wouldn't bother because there's no money in it.

   It might work well in a Sorcery! multi-player RPG where it would give a warrior PC the feeling he wasn't just a barbarian and could do things that weren't dodging, fighting and talking (I believe that's the kind of point you're making slloyd14 )?

[misomiso]

Aug 10, 2023 16:09:45 GMT slloyd14 said:

Aug 10, 2023 7:03:46 GMT misomiso said:

If I remember correctly the app only lets you play as a Wizard, but you still have to do lots of fighting and the fighting system is a lot different so it's not really a comparison.

A Skill selection would be interesting but I don't think the game book could take TWO 'subsystems' of rules; it either needs to be skills or spells, as they are kind of the same thing in that you have to use a skill/spell to pass certain obstacles.

Heart of Ice has the best skill system I've ever seen in a game book, while Secrets of Salamonis comes a close second.

A skill selection could work if skills/items and spell effects overlap.

For example, the warrior could use a simple shield which would have the same effect as the WOK spell. Maybe the strength skill could be the same effect as the PEP spell. Maybe the warrior can hit with more precise blows which is the same as the RAZ spell. The languages skill can emulate the RAP(?) Spell. Jump skill could be ZEN (sometimes) and see stealth could do what the YAZ spell does (sometimes). On the plus side, skills don't cost components and drain stamina but they might not be as effective as magic so they won't be used in every situation (jump might not work when trying to lift up the earth serpent for example).

The thing is you really have to ask yourself why you are doing both of these things. 

Skill systems and Magic system complicate the game playing experience and add a lot of depth, and part of the idea of playing with the Warrior in Sorcery! was to play the game simply to give the book a wider access.  Doing skills instead of Magic in the same book removes the point of that, but I do really like the idea of some Warrior skills being replacements for some magic!

On the other hand I am big proponent of simplicity in these gamebooks.  Part of the reason FF was so succseful imo was that they were very very simple, and when you look at other gamebooks round the same time some of them are so complex you can't even get through the rules! 

If I was writing one the only thing I would change to the basic system is have a 'DEFENCE' stat so you split Skill into Attack Skill and Defence which would allow for a greater variety of enemies, and then something like the SoS skill system (7 or 8 skills to choose from is enough imo!).  

 

[slloyd14]

Aug 14, 2023 11:16:30 GMT misomiso said:

Aug 10, 2023 16:09:45 GMT slloyd14 said:

A skill selection could work if skills/items and spell effects overlap.

For example, the warrior could use a simple shield which would have the same effect as the WOK spell. Maybe the strength skill could be the same effect as the PEP spell. Maybe the warrior can hit with more precise blows which is the same as the RAZ spell. The languages skill can emulate the RAP(?) Spell. Jump skill could be ZEN (sometimes) and see stealth could do what the YAZ spell does (sometimes). On the plus side, skills don't cost components and drain stamina but they might not be as effective as magic so they won't be used in every situation (jump might not work when trying to lift up the earth serpent for example).

The thing is you really have to ask yourself why you are doing both of these things. 

Skill systems and Magic system complicate the game playing experience and add a lot of depth, and part of the idea of playing with the Warrior in Sorcery! was to play the game simply to give the book a wider access.  Doing skills instead of Magic in the same book removes the point of that, but I do really like the idea of some Warrior skills being replacements for some magic!

On the other hand I am big proponent of simplicity in these gamebooks.  Part of the reason FF was so succseful imo was that they were very very simple, and when you look at other gamebooks round the same time some of them are so complex you can't even get through the rules! 

If I was writing one the only thing I would change to the basic system is have a 'DEFENCE' stat so you split Skill into Attack Skill and Defence which would allow for a greater variety of enemies, and then something like the SoS skill system (7 or 8 skills to choose from is enough imo!).  

 

A couple of reasons to have both skills and spells:

Flavour: people might want to play as a warrior but not as a generic blank slate. Being a warrior in sorcery gets you +2 skill but then all warriors are the same whereas some sorcerer's might focus on 1 stamina spells and some might just stick to the 4 cost spells.

Play styles: spells are powerful and versatile but cost stamina whereas skills are less powerful and versatile but are free.

Yes, one of FF's strengths is simplicity but it could be easy to have spells that say "this spell is like having a shield" which does not increase the complexity but allows you to have both a magic shield or mundane shield.

[misomiso]

An alternative to the Sorcery! series would be a 1000 entry adventure where you can play as a Warrior, Rogue, OR Wizard.

The Wizard would have spells, maybe similar to Citadel of Chaos.

The Rogue would have skills, maybe 4 selected from 7, but they would not go away each time they were spent.

And the Warrior would have nothing except Higher Skill and Stamina, except maybe ONE special skill (Strength, Brawling, etc).

You could design and adventure like that I think and so have differentiation of characters while still having one relatively simple path.