kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,458
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Nov 5, 2020 8:40:17 GMT
To the eight other people who voted for Sky Lord and actually gave it points, I can only ask... WHY??? I like its quirkiness - there's some genuine imagination there. Structurally it's fairly unique too. The abundance of instant death, some dull sequences (yaw? More like yawn amirite?), overly tough space combats and lack of explanation about some of the terminology let it down but it's far from worthless or indeed close to being the worst book imo.
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Post by a moderator on Nov 5, 2020 16:01:45 GMT
Sky Lord - undeniably flawed, a bit bonkers, frequently comes in last in fan polls, but it has its entertaining elements, and there is worse stuff out there. Reminds me of a certain Doctor Who story starring Colin Baker...
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Post by Wilf on Nov 5, 2020 18:43:56 GMT
...for the comparison to be complete, it just needs some nutcase to defend it on an Internet forum. Not on your nelly, mate!
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Post by a moderator on Nov 5, 2020 20:00:10 GMT
I don't expect you to become its defender. It just struck me that, given your track record as regards standing up for what many still consider the nadir of DW, it shouldn't be completely baffling to you that a few fans can find something of merit in even the most unloved FF book.
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Post by Wilf on Nov 5, 2020 21:53:17 GMT
I fear you are taking my comment too seriously!
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Post by a moderator on Nov 5, 2020 22:06:35 GMT
This is fandom. There's no view so preposterous that it cannot be held in total sincerity by someone, somewhere.
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Post by Wilf on Nov 6, 2020 8:57:36 GMT
Three days to go for Round Five, and (hopefully) four sets of scores still to come. It's all gone a little bit USA at the moment, as I have six books in the currently open rounds which are tied for their various positions. Naturally, I will count every vote because every vote counts - especially right now, so please PM me if you haven't already, and help me to break the deadlocks before the weekend is out.
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Post by petch on Nov 7, 2020 18:32:51 GMT
Sorry, I'm late to the party. Having recently bought Crystal of Storms in a failed attempt to introduce my son to FF (kids these days with their X-Stations and Playboxes, eh?), I was reminded of my own love for the books and some idle googling caused me to chance upon your wonderful forum here.
I can see I've missed the boat for the early rounds but I'd like to join in if no one has any objections to me joining two thirds of the way through?
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Post by Wilf on Nov 7, 2020 21:00:07 GMT
I can see I've missed the boat for the early rounds but I'd like to join in if no one has any objections to me joining two thirds of the way through? Of course not. *adds new column to spreadsheet*
Welcome aboard!
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Post by petch on Nov 8, 2020 0:08:31 GMT
I can see I've missed the boat for the early rounds but I'd like to join in if no one has any objections to me joining two thirds of the way through? Of course not. *adds new column to spreadsheet*
Welcome aboard!
Cheers
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Post by Wilf on Nov 8, 2020 10:58:22 GMT
With a bunch of new PMs now considered, there's been a change of lead, an undoing of all the aforementioned ties, and a dead heat for 48th place expanded to include three books instead of two. One book in one of the two open rounds is now battling with Razaak himself in a tie with Crypt Of The Sorcerer, and another one is proving its villainy against Abdul The Butcher in a tie with Seas Of Blood. New maximums have been awarded, and new minimums too.
I am hoping for three more votes to come in before midnight when Round Five closes, after which I'll be inviting opinions on the Sorcery, Clash, and Roleplaying adventures in Round Seven...
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Post by Wilf on Nov 8, 2020 18:15:10 GMT
Although the PMs I've received since my last post only offered a verdict on a small number of books, it was still enough to break two of the deadlocks, and grant victory (for now) to both Abdul and Razaak.
Every vote really does count.
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Post by Wilf on Nov 9, 2020 0:49:53 GMT
And with one final Round Five vote coming in at the eleventh hour - literally - Round Five closes, and a new tie is created...
Whilst I cast my beady eye over the results, please bombard me with PMs with numerical critiques of:
Steve Jackson's Sorcery!: The Shamutanti Hills Steve Jackson's Sorcery!: Khare - Cityport of Traps Steve Jackson's Sorcery!: The Seven Serpents Steve Jackson's Sorcery!: The Crown of Kings Clash of the Princes: The Warrior's Way Clash of the Princes: The Warlock's Way Fighting Fantasy: The Roleplaying Game The Riddling Reaver
I declare this seventh round officially open; you have until midnight on Sunday 15th November to consider and deliver your ratings.
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Post by Wilf on Nov 9, 2020 2:53:07 GMT
ROUND FIVE OBSERVATIONS:
Seventeen voters (plus myself) had something to say about something in Round Five, and that something was a number. Sixteen numbers were attached to Return To Firetop Mountain (or Read The Flippin' Manual as I thought of it everytime someone initialised it); fourteen voters scored Legend Of The Shadow Warriors, Tower Of Destruction, The Crimson Tide, and Moonrunner; all the other books received thirteen ratings except for Siege Of Sardath which netted just twelve. Whilst it may seem disappointing that my favourite FF book received the fewest scores in this round, it does mean my 10/10 carries slightly more weight, so I'm not unhappy!
Did anything else receive a Perfect Ten? Well actually yes. Damn near everything, in fact. Nineteen 10/10s were spread across seven books in this round, with only Master Of Chaos, Keep Of The Lich-Lord, and RTFM missing out. You'd be forgiven for thinking that these three formed the bottom three of the round, but in fact they didn't, as we shall see (eventually).
At the wrong end of the spectrum, The Crimson Tide received the only zero in this round, making it Round Five's most controversial book, and the third title (so far) to have the maximum variance of ten points separating its highest and lowest scores. Black Vein Prophecy and Tower Of Destruction were also particularly divisive. On the other hand, three books in this round had a variance of only four points, and all of them have done rather well...
It was looking for a long while like a book in this round was going to take the overall first place in the rankings, until it received its lowest score on the final day of voting, which knocked it off its perch. But which book, and did it make a last minute recovery? Find out in a week and a half (if I remember).
It was suggested upthread that the books in this round would get lower ratings than the ones that came before. This assertion proved spectacularly incorrect - right from the very beginning there was a massive jump in the overall average, with books 41-50 scoring 11.35% higher than those in the previous round, and 4.75% higher than the highest rated earlier round (Round One). Voting was consistently generous, with just 2.6 points separating the highest and lowest of each voter's average scores (barring those who only passed judgment on one book).
Master Of Chaos is currently tied with a book in Round Six, though I expect the late votes in that round will sort that out. Another tie, however, will require a different contest to unravel...
On to the rapidly expanding Battle Of The Authors. Yeah, I'm capitalising it now in the hope that it'll become a thing. With five new names added to the list in Round Five, it's not so much about how this round has changed everyone's averages as where the new names fit in. I won't reveal how close some of these are, but I will note that the current order, from highest to lowest scoring, looks like this: Stephen Hand; Paul Mason; Peter Darvill-Evans; Jamie Thomson; Steve Jackson (UK); Robin Waterfield; Keith Martin; Steve Jackson (US); Ian Livingstone; Andrew Chapman; Luke Sharp. RTFM caused Ian Livingstone's average to fall again, though to be fair when you're the author of City Of Thieves and Deathtrap Dungeon, it's going to be tough to reverse that trend, and RTFM is not his lowest rated title. Not even close.
It should be pointed out, of course, that this not a definitive verdict on the relative merits of anyone's hard work. It doesn't take into account the artwork (which I know is a factor in several voters' scores) for a start. And it's unforgiving for those titles which have proved controversial - is it better to be quite liked by everybody, or loved and hated in equal measure? There are lies, damned lies, and statistics, and every book has its fans. Even Chasms Of Malice. I would celebrate every author on this list, however far down it they may be, as they have all made multiple contributions to the most successful gamebook series of all.
And that'll still be true even when the author of Sky Lord gets added in two rounds' time.
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Post by Wilf on Nov 11, 2020 18:25:45 GMT
A little under six hours to go before the door slams on Round Six, and there's at least two books in this round that need disentangling from their predecessors, so if you haven't already done so, please let me have your scores by midnight tonight. YOU could be the hero who breaks the ties! (As I type I await PMs from three people who've voted in the previous rounds.)
Round Seven is, of course, still open until midnight Sunday, and I'm particularly keen to hear from anybody who's actually read Clash Of The Princes...
And the final Round, encompassing the ten post-Puffin FF gamebooks, will open tonight, which means there's one last chance for me to be horrified at just how many of you are still online in the wee small hours!
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Post by Wilf on Nov 12, 2020 0:05:07 GMT
Six down, one-and-a-half to go. Scoring is now closed for books 51-59. Instead, please now let me have your verdicts one final time, on...
Eye Of The Dragon Bloodbones Howl Of The Werewolf Stormslayer Night Of The Necromancer Blood Of The Zombies The Port Of Peril The Gates Of Death Assassins Of Allansia The Crystal Of Storms.
Round Eight is now open...
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Post by Wilf on Nov 12, 2020 1:14:52 GMT
ROUND SIX OBSERVATIONS:
First observation: The books in the 50s are a bugger to get hold of. This isn't news to anyone, is it? Fifteen people (plus myself) designated a digit to one or more of the last nine Puffins: Night Dragon and Spellbreaker had fourteen ratings each; Legend Of Zagor and Curse Of The Mummy were considered by thirteen respondents; twelve people had an opinion about Magehunter; eleven verdicts were delivered on Island Of The Undead, Knights Of Doom, and Revenge Of The Vampire; and either Deathmoor is the rarest of the Puffin main range or else it sent its readers to sleep before they finished it - just ten people felt able to give a score to that title.
Second observation: The books in the 50s are mostly unloved. That one actually surprised me - I always held the 30s to be the range's nadir. But no - these 9 titles had the lowest average of any round so far, being 14.92% lower than Round Five, and 3.15% lower than Round Three (the least loved previous round). There was a difference of 3.44 points between the kindest and meanest voters' averages.
Tens were thin on the ground. In fact, there was only one, and it went to Island Of The Undead, of all things. Two zeroes were awarded, too - one to Deathmoor and one to Revenge Of The Vampire. The latter was the most divisive book in the round, with a highest score of 9. Knights of Doom was also particularly controversial, with a high score of 9 and a low of 1. None of the books in this paragraph came first or last in the round, though...
I spoke a while ago of two battles for positioning, which were won by Abdul The Butcher and Razaak. In both cases, their opponent was none other than Zagor, with RTFM losing the tie-break against Seas Of Blood, and Legend Of Zagor losing the one against Crypt Of The Sorcerer.
On the subject of ties, one final PM reached me which broke a deadlock between Night Dragon and Master Of Chaos. The Keith Martin book came out victorious, naturally. Another tie, however, was unresolved, and it's a three-way one. One book in this round has an average of exactly 5 points, which it shares with two books in Round Two. Perhaps when all this is done, someone might set up a knockout tournament to resolve all the equally ranked books? It won't be me, though!
Stephen Hand remains the most successful author at this stage, followed by Peter Darvill-Evans, Paul Mason, Jamie Thomson, proper Steve Jackson, other Steve Jackson, Robin Waterfield, Ian Livingstone, Keith Martin, Jonathan Green, Andrew Chapman, and Luke Sharp. I honestly thought Jonathan Green's early books would rate higher than they did; I assume their extraordinary toughness and need for loaded dice is what did for them - am I right? Legend Of Zagor counts toward Keith Martin's average, not Ian Livingstone's.
Of course, Steve UK, Andrew, Paul, Jonathan, and Ian all have books in the last two rounds, so their relative positions may yet change. And Martin Allen and Steven Williams will join the list when Round Seven closes.
Right - I need to rest and recover some lost STAMINA. One more week, and I'll reveal exactly what ended up where - which book ranked at number one, which books came in the middle, how the Wizard and Scholastic titles fared against the Puffin ones, and exactly how many miles separate 76th place and Sky Lord.
One more little teaser: The book currently 30th out of 59, and thus the most average FF book in the first six rounds is...
...Trial Of Champions.
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Post by a moderator on Nov 12, 2020 2:18:02 GMT
I honestly thought Jonathan Green's early books would rate higher than they did; I assume their extraordinary toughness and need for loaded dice is what did for them - am I right? Well, their low playability ratings certainly dragged them down in my rankings.
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Post by The Count on Nov 12, 2020 10:07:22 GMT
I honestly thought Jonathan Green's early books would rate higher than they did; I assume their extraordinary toughness and need for loaded dice is what did for them - am I right? Yes.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,458
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Nov 12, 2020 11:29:40 GMT
Stephen Hand remains the most successful author at this stage, followed by Peter Darvill-Evans, Paul Mason, Jamie Thomson, proper Steve Jackson, other Steve Jackson, Robin Waterfield, Ian Livingstone, Keith Martin, Jonathan Green, Andrew Chapman, and Luke Sharp. Poor Luke. Based on averages of my responses to the first six rounds, he does a bit better - level pegging with Keith Martin and Steve Jackson (US) and ahead of Andrew Chapman and Jonathan Green - though I imagine Jonathan will overtake him once I do my scores for the post-Puffin books. And of course, there's still Martin Allen to factor in. And if we were to factor in some of the one-hit wonders (I'm looking at you Marc Gascoigne, Graeme Davis and Charlie Higson), Luke would probably be mid-table. I wonder if this makes me the biggest Luke Sharp fan on the board? I'm actually a bit surprised Keith Martin isn't doing better, I thought his books were generally quite well regarded amongst fans. Even aside from the difficulty, I find two of his first three books pretty tedious. The other I think is a great read but there's only so high I can rate such a broken book.
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Post by a moderator on Nov 12, 2020 13:21:46 GMT
if we were to factor in some of the one-hit wonders (I'm looking at you Marc Gascoigne, Graeme Davis and Charlie Higson), Luke would probably be mid-table. Unless you count getting published as a success in itself, there needs to be a better term than 'one-hit wonder' for some of the FF books that were their author's sole contribution to the range. One-book blunder? Keith Martin seems to me to be one of the most variable writers. Looking at my own rankings for him, the scores range from 4 (on my scale, that's poor) to 8 (very good). The only author with a wider spread of scores is Ian Livingstone, and there's a clearer progression there - predominantly high scores in the first few years, taking a downturn from 1985 onwards, and dropping from average to lousy in the 21st century. Additionally, there seems to be little consensus among fans about which of his books are the good ones - those who consider Night Dragon a spectacular epic are balanced out by the ones who view it as an overcomplicated, bug-ridden slog. Thus, any one fan's overall rating for KM is likely to be dragged down by whichever of his books they don't enjoy so much, and dissenting views within fandom will similarly impact individual titles. Of his first three books, the one I rated highest for playability scored very poorly on the fun scale, so I see where you're coming from.
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Post by Wilf on Nov 12, 2020 14:17:42 GMT
I will confess I am not a fan of Keith Martin's books - both his prose style and his hub-based approach turn me off. For my money, he improves as he goes along (with one exception), but that's balanced by the increased bugginess and lack of playtesting of the later titles.
But then again, I'm the guy who doesn't like Vault Of The Vampire, so what do I know? The general consensus seems to be that...
...to be continued...
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,458
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Nov 12, 2020 14:25:38 GMT
Keith Martin seems to me to be one of the most variable writers. Looking at my own rankings for him, the scores range from 4 (on my scale, that's poor) to 8 (very good). Same with me actually. Although he's far from having the biggest range of scores for me - Steve Jackson has that dubious honour. You can probably guess which book is the drag factor for him. Ian Livingstone and Luke Sharp also have a bigger range than Keith for me (and Ian will probably be joining Steve once Round 8 comes along), while Robin Waterfield and Steve Jackson (US) are tying with Keith.
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Post by Wilf on Nov 12, 2020 14:44:20 GMT
As I type, the only authors in both the top ten and bottom ten are Steve Jackson and Ian Livingstone.
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Post by The Count on Nov 12, 2020 14:44:38 GMT
Stephen Hand remains the most successful author at this stage, followed by Peter Darvill-Evans, Paul Mason, Jamie Thomson, proper Steve Jackson, other Steve Jackson, Robin Waterfield, Ian Livingstone, Keith Martin, Jonathan Green, Andrew Chapman, and Luke Sharp. Poor Luke. Based on averages of my responses to the first six rounds, he does a bit better - level pegging with Keith Martin and Steve Jackson (US) and ahead of Andrew Chapman and Jonathan Green - though I imagine Jonathan will overtake him once I do my scores for the post-Puffin books. And of course, there's still Martin Allen to factor in. And if we were to factor in some of the one-hit wonders (I'm looking at you Marc Gascoigne, Graeme Davis and Charlie Higson), Luke would probably be mid-table. I wonder if this makes me the biggest Luke Sharp fan on the board? Have we found the mystery voter who gave Chasms of Malice 10/10?!? I'm actually a bit surprised Keith Martin isn't doing better, I thought his books were generally quite well regarded amongst fans. He is my favourite of the prolific authors (ie those with more than 5 books), though lack of playtesting means some books lose points due to bugs. Even aside from the difficulty, I find two of his first three books pretty tedious. The other I think is a great read but there's only so high I can rate such a broken book. They would be good as stories, but as gamebooks? Exhausting... unlike difficult yet challenging titles such as Siege or Havoc for example.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,458
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Nov 12, 2020 14:56:25 GMT
Have we found the mystery voter who gave Chasms of Malice 10/10?!? Nope, it's by far my least favourite of his books.
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Post by a moderator on Nov 12, 2020 15:15:24 GMT
Keith Martin seems to me to be one of the most variable writers. Looking at my own rankings for him, the scores range from 4 (on my scale, that's poor) to 8 (very good). Same with me actually. Although he's far from having the biggest range of scores for me - Steve Jackson has that dubious honour. You can probably guess which book is the drag factor for him. Ian Livingstone and Luke Sharp also have a bigger range than Keith for me (and Ian will probably be joining Steve once Round 8 comes along), while Robin Waterfield and Steve Jackson (US) are tying with Keith. Steve would have a wider range than Keith in my rankings if, when calculating my scores, I'd remembered how much stat-rolling that book has and adjusted the playability rating downwards to reflect it.
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,678
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Nov 12, 2020 15:25:50 GMT
I'm expecting the JG books to make a huge comeback now. Also nice to see Paul Mason books getting some love.
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Post by petch on Nov 12, 2020 16:07:37 GMT
Well this is all getting quite exciting. Great job building the tension with your cryptic observations Wilf!
For my part in the Battle Of The Authors, I think I've given quite a spread of scores for every author who penned more than 1 book (or would have done in any case had I joined in from the beginning!). In fact only 1 of them has every one of their books in the top half of my rankings (ie 6/10 or above) - Stephen Hand. None have all of their books in the bottom half so they have all received some love.
The same author is responsible for both my favourite and least favourite entry.
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vagsancho
Knight
Posts: 809
Favourite Gamebook Series: CRYPT OF THE SORCERER
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Post by vagsancho on Nov 12, 2020 16:47:50 GMT
The best authors is quite simple to me:the makers of my two only ten's. Steve Jackson, (House of Hell) and Ian Livingstone (Crypt of the Sorcerer) With advantage for livingstone because of City of Thieves, Deathtrap Dungeon and Trial of Champions.
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