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Post by thealmightymudworm on Nov 14, 2013 20:02:43 GMT
From TUFFF (Oct 2010 - a year after the opening post)... Well, I AM surprised this hasn't been discussed. I know it's a favourite of a few members, including myself, if only for the story as opposed to the average gameplay. Black Vein Prophecy differs from many Fighting Fantasy books in quite a number of unusual ways; this is apparent to any long-term fan by simply opening the book. There are no rules. The introductory page goes straight to the Adventure Sheet (where, deliberately you are not told how to use it) and then from there to the Background section, which as in MOST cases leads to paragraph 1. You see, in BVP You don't know who you are. Or where you are. Or, indeed, what you should be doing. As you play through the adventure, the rules are given to you in small doses (although, in a style that Wizard Series 2 would later adopt, they are iterated in full in the rear of the book) as you need them. The style of writing is also geared towards simply telling a good story, rather than it being specifically a children's / teens book. For example, the opening paragraph reads thus: "Blackness... The sound of marching feet... The musty odour of decay. Somewhere in the void which envelops you, a voice cries out. The pounding feet fade away and sparks swim before your eyes. Nausea grips you. You double up; your head thumps against stone. the numbness retreats from your limbs and, as your senses return, you feel the cold stone slabs which entomb you. you panic, flailing desperately. Your hand strikes the slab above you and a flash sears your vision. As your site returns, you see the lid of your sarcophagus hurtle upwards. It smashes against a high ceiling and disintegrates, raining stone shards and dust down upon you. Silence descends." So... What do YOU think of BVP, and of course, its 'follow-up' although not direct sequel, The Crimson Tide? Discuss both in the relevant topics, because I'd love to know ~ Vae Victis! ~
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Nov 14, 2013 20:04:12 GMT
From TUFFF... While BVP has its flaws, I always thought it handled the 'start from a position of ignorance' aspect far better than CoH. There's plenty of good to say about Creature, but a 20-page essay on local history and politics before section 1 takes away a heck of a lot of the 'what the **** is going on?' feel that you should have. BVP properly throws you in at the deep end, and makes learning about your character and the world around him feel like an achievement.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Nov 14, 2013 20:07:00 GMT
From TUFFF... Finally managed to beat it and it took me many tries! It had been a while since a book gave me such trouble, the last one being most likely Slaves of the Abyss, which is appropriate, though I think BVP was harder overall. So this is another new book. In fact, prior to my rekindling of the flame for FF I didn't even knew it existed. And when I was looking at buying used copies I wasn't even sure I wanted it, what with such an unappealing cover. (The way it work is that: first, I wanted to buy some of my old favourite in the Wizard re-edition, then all of the Wizard books, then all the missing puffin ones. As I wasn't sure I could get them all, I told myself that I would get what I can, and leave the rest... maybe. BVP was in the unavailable rest. Eventually I got them all anyway, and I'm glad I did.) ...as I would have missed on a great book, meh cover be damned. I would agree that the element of waking up new to the world is better handled, more subtle, than in Creature of Havoc, though the book is not as complex and currently I would be hard-pressed to tell you which one I ended up preferring. It is too soon and the experience is too fresh. The element of surprise is also only really effective the first few tries (whatever it takes you to finish it, what with the staggering amount of instant death), after, you might be tempted to do it again to see the whole story under the perspective of knowledge, but it's bound to get duller over time, though not necessarily dull enough to stop completely from playing it.
Best example I can give would be a movie like The Sixth Sense. You watch it once in awe. You watch it another time with knowledge, trying to pick every clue. And after that it will probably sit on your shelf for a good while. It doesn't mean it's a bad movie, but it relies heavily on the effect of surprise and once stripped away from it, it looses a bit of potency. Otherwise this book gave me a hard time to complete, but it was worth it, what with the superior story and, more important, storytelling, than your average FF book. Great atmosphere, great suspence, intriguing development all around, and a mysterious world to learn and conquer. If I had to nitpick it would be a similar complaint than for SotA, that the story is very linear; you are not allowed a lot of straying from the main path, or else you'll find yourself quickly doomed. Inside illos by Terry Oakes were all around good and well done. I was a bit apprehensive because of the cover, but turns out that the man's got an original style of his own that, while not my favourite, is still full of flavours and interesting to watch unfold. Highly recommended! Speak in extremes, it will save you time.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Nov 14, 2013 20:07:55 GMT
From TUFFF... BVP is now a FF book I read and don't play. It's a bloody good read though, and easily one of my faves. Two Words
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Nov 14, 2013 20:08:26 GMT
From TUFFF... Spoilers! That guy in the painting, near the end, is it the Riddling Reaver? Speak in extremes, it will save you time.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Nov 14, 2013 20:08:50 GMT
From TUFFF... Yes. I think he turns up in all the Paul Mason books.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Nov 14, 2013 20:09:14 GMT
From TUFFF... He's even on the cover of Slaves of the Abyss!
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Nov 14, 2013 20:09:45 GMT
From TUFFF... True. I just don't have a clue who the guy is. Speak in extremes, it will save you time.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Nov 14, 2013 20:12:19 GMT
From TUFFF... If I had to nitpick it would be a similar complaint to that for SotA, that the story is very linear; you are not allowed a lot of straying from the main path, or else you'll find yourself quickly doomed. I think the main difference between it and SotA is that there's still quite a few interesting red herring paths to explore (brief that they may be) in BVP while making a wrong decision in SotA usually either kills you off immediately or shunts you further along in the story thereby missing something vital.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Nov 14, 2013 20:13:56 GMT
From TUFFF... True. I just don't have a clue who the guy is. As far as I recall, he's the chief servant of Logaan, the God of Luck and Chance and he likes causing chaos regardless of whether it'll do good or harm. I'm not sure what species he's meant to be. In The Riddling Reaver, he's drawn as a kind of reptilian man, but I don't remember him ever being described as such in the text. His illustration in Slaves of the Abyss looks decidedly more human. The Riddling Reaver is well worth a read by the way, even if you're not into role playing. I have considered adapting it into a gamebook, but so far haven't because a) I'm too lazy and b) I'm not that keen on getting sued.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Nov 14, 2013 20:14:29 GMT
From TUFFF... Yeah getting sued is a bitch.
I'll have to find myself a copy of The Riddling Reaver one day. Thanks for the info. Speak in extremes, it will save you time.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Nov 14, 2013 20:15:33 GMT
From TUFFF... As far as I recall, he's the chief servant of Logaan, the God of Luck and Chance and he likes causing chaos regardless of whether it'll do good or harm. I'm not sure what species he's meant to be. In The Riddling Reaver, he's drawn as a kind of reptilian man, but I don't remember him ever being described as such in the text. His illustration in Slaves of the Abyss looks decidedly more human.The Riddling Reaver is well worth a read by the way, even if you're not into role playing. I have considered adapting it into a gamebook, but so far haven't because a) I'm too lazy and b) I'm not that keen on getting sued. He's still reptilian on the cover of SotA as one of those in the floating "jail". (328) Despite your best efforts, you find yourself decaying in front of a computer screen. Your adventure ends here.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Nov 14, 2013 20:16:17 GMT
From TUFFF... ^ True. It's possible that Terry Oakes copied his likeness from The Riddling Reaver though. It'd be interesting to read Mason and Williams' initial description of the character to the illustrators.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Nov 14, 2013 20:17:08 GMT
From TUFFF... So, I was playing this one and all was good until I found out that the page with 24 was right beside the page with 32. Now, having gotten it used, I wasn't really that surprised that it was missing pages, but it kind of makes it difficult to play. If anyone could tell me what happens in references 25-31 and what references they direct you to, that would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance!
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Nov 14, 2013 20:18:27 GMT
From TUFFF... ^ True. It's possible that Terry Oakes copied his likeness from The Riddling Reaver though. It'd be interesting to read Mason and Williams' initial description of the character to the illustrators.
What you got on the cover of The Riddling Reaver was Steve Jackson's description of the character to Peter Andrew Jones. It trampled all over our description, both to the artist, and within the text. We then had to try to address this anomaly with compromises involving all other illustrations, and the Reaver being a 'master of disguise' helped that a little.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Nov 14, 2013 20:19:48 GMT
From TUFFF... Legendoffantasy: The gist of the missing paragraphs, and the directions at the end, are as follows: 25: The coin lands with Feior's face upwards. Feior is defeated - turn to 264. 26: You cast a spell which locks the water and traps the bathers. You escape - turn to 202. 27: Your spell turns the Polybleb into something eye-searingly horrific. It kills you. 28: The Sturramak decimates the peasants; the Sitting Prophet attacks it whilst the Kreehuls take on Feior's troops. But without a battle strategy, your allies (and you) all perish in the carnage. 29: You arrive in a town where you are mistaken for Feior, thrown in a cell, and then executed. 30: There is another seal at the top of the stairs. Beyond it, you acquire a sword and a pack containing 5 provisions. You pass through three more seals as the tunnel starts to collapse, then make a dash for the sunlight at the end of the tunnel. Roll one die and turn to 107. 31: You and Feior cast the same spell at each other. The spells combine and the resulting shockwave kills you.
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Post by a moderator on Nov 15, 2013 1:54:38 GMT
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Post by a moderator on May 24, 2014 13:20:45 GMT
My TUFFF playthrough:
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Post by oakdweller on Mar 29, 2015 17:50:45 GMT
***SPOILERS AHEAD - LOTS OF 'EM***
Due to the amnesia-driven mystery that this book relies upon to tell its story, the spoilers that this review contains will really shatter the enjoyment of anyone who hasn’t read Black Vein Prophecy before. The unfolding mystery is at the very heart of the book’s narrative purpose, so I don’t feel that it’s possible to delve into the review in traditional Oakdweller style without revealing important plot points. So, if you haven’t ever played this one before please don’t read any further.
Until my recent playthroughs (eight of them!), I hadn’t actually managed to beat this book before. Like Paul Mason’s other books there is – as far as I can tell - only one true path, with little room for deviation and it’s also incredibly tricky to find it. (Still easier than Magehunter though, which still eludes me after what must be more than 40 reads). The way that the path is hidden by needing to keep a chain of events together is very clever, but also really frustrating. Many of the choices that need to be made aren’t ones that can be deduced either. The way that the Chang whistle is used is a clear example of this; you’re told that it’s a tube with holes when Merzei gives it to you, but nothing else. It came as double surprise when the time came to use it against a mass of deadly eels because there was no hint that it had any such calming properties - and neither was it clear that the whistle is twirled rather than blown. Another object that perplexed me was the broken arrow that Maior fishes out of a campfire. I accept that having the arrow in your possession is the book’s way of ensuring that you were around to eavesdrop on an important conversation, but there’s no logical reason why you would take an otherwise useless item.
The only other aspect that could have been tightened up was in the use of the spells that you can learn along the way. It was a neat idea to have Maior remember these arcane talents as well as recovering memory of his identity and history, but the text isn’t entirely clear whether or not you should’ve learned the spells when options are given for using them. For example, on reference 186 you are given several options to attack the cut-throats at the bath house. Two of the spell options tell you that you can ‘say’ the required word, one to ‘call’ and the other to ‘name’. Considering that the text asks you to note down newly learnt spells, the intention would appear to be that later options to use certain powers should be closed to you if you haven’t ‘unlocked’ them. However, the text never states this, which is a glaring omission.
Right, those are all of my quibbles out of the way. I wanted to get the negative points out of the way first so that I could shine a light on the gorgeous storytelling without any moans along the way. The opening events of this book are absolutely exquisite. From the escape from the crypt to the exploration of the devastated city, this is simply the most beautiful writing to grace the pages of a Fighting Fantasy book. As Hynreck pointed out some time ago, the opening reference for this book manages to beat the one for Creature of Havoc because Mason didn’t make the mistake of using a ‘Background’ section at all, thereby preserving the mystery. The book takes its time to build atmosphere, absorbing the player into the sinister place that they’ve woken up to with magnificent prose that details both the ruined luxury of your surroundings with the unpleasant physical sensations that are assailing you. There is also a connection made between your frightening headaches and the mysterious disintegration of the crypt, punctuating your temple throbs and pressure surges with tumbling masonry and trembling statues.
The unsettling strangeness of your ‘new’ world doesn’t ease when you make it outside and your headaches cease. No, if anything they get stranger. I’ve always been perplexed by the surreal nature of the devastation: “clusters of tiny holes”, houses “stained and spattered by a myriad colours” and especially the weird marrow-shaped object that seems to have caused the disaster, which is made of wicker. Wicker?! Wow, now that’s unexpected.
There are other peculiar ideas later in the book too which give the story a distinctive individuality. The complex of ale pipes that are there for the patrons of the public baths to swig from are one such quirky touch, as is the idea of using the threads from giant dragonflies to carry off the prophet statue later on in the jungle. And as for sending dangerous criminals out sea in inflated shael beast bladders…
It’s rare to be a named character in FF. Aside from Sky Lord and this one, I don’t think there are any others that do this. (Legend of Zagor doesn’t really count here because the text isn’t character specific). Maior’s past is pieced together with great care, keeping the reader guessing as to what sort of character he is. Your clothes are of fine quality, but are you a lofty stand-offish noble, or someone who is far more in touch with the common people? Are you law-abiding, or are you the unscrupulous sort who would happily join up with a gang of bandits? Can you trust everyone from your old life – including your brother – or is it best to treat everyone as a potential enemy? Your father (at least that’s who I take him to be) speaks to you in the crypt with an unhelpful appeal for you to remember all that he taught you. This paternal advice gives the false impression that your father is a force for good. For once we have a truly multi-layered villain and not just some all-powerful sorcerer who is evil for evil’s sake.
The political situation is revealed gradually too. I was impressed with the subtle way that the fact that all is not well in this land is hinted at early on in your travels by drawing our attention to the unharvested and rotting millet. The ominously deserted roads add to our suspicions that there is something menacing the land.
I’m not too sure what to make of Terry Oakes’s artwork. Whilst some of the illustrations are really striking, sometimes his delicate outlining can make things too indistinct, rather like over-exposed photography. (The villagers stuck in the mud (158) are a case in point). The cross-hatching effect that he uses on a few of his backgrounds (such as the night sky for reference 222) doesn’t really work for me either. However, the pieces that I did rather like include evocative low-angled crypt (1), the disintegrating warrior (147), the prophet statue (366), the bizarre shael beast (382) and the zorbing (392).
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Post by a moderator on Mar 30, 2015 17:36:55 GMT
It’s rare to be a named character in FF. Aside from Sky Lord and this one, I don’t think there are any others that do this. ( Legend of Zagor doesn’t really count here because the text isn’t character specific). What about Appointment with F.E.A.R.?
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Post by oakdweller on Mar 30, 2015 22:29:17 GMT
Dagnammit! I knew that I'd forget something. Lafayette or something in that one aren't you? I can't remember whether or not he has a first name though.
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Post by cyranotheswordfish on Mar 31, 2015 6:39:43 GMT
Jean Lafayette, I believe
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Post by a moderator on Mar 31, 2015 12:30:03 GMT
Dagnammit! I knew that I'd forget something. Lafayette or something in that one aren't you? I can't remember whether or not he has a first name though. The choice of 'Jean' as a first name means that your character can be 'he' or 'she' in AWF, though the sequels in Warlock magazine and Fighting Fantazine have disregarded that ambiguity.
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Post by vastarien on Apr 1, 2015 11:48:40 GMT
Oakdweller, just wanted to say I thoroughly enjoyed your review. Both Black Vein and Crimson Tide were always favourites of mine for their mysterious storylines and oriental tinges. I haven't read them since the early 90s, but they both really stayed with me.
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Post by oakdweller on Apr 1, 2015 16:47:26 GMT
Oakdweller, just wanted to say I thoroughly enjoyed your review. Both Black Vein and Crimson Tide were always favourites of mine for their mysterious storylines and oriental tinges. I haven't read them since the early 90s, but they both really stayed with me. Aww, thanks. Yes, the "oriental tinges" of both books are certainly unusual and yet the two books have their own flavours which are distinct from one another. Black Vein Prophecy has dark surrealism mixed with civil war, whereas Crimson Tide is a coming of age/ revenge plot. I dare say that when I get around to playing Crimson Tide that I will spot all sorts of similarities and differences to Black Vein Prophecy that appeal to my peculiar brain.
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Post by vastariner on Apr 22, 2015 7:04:00 GMT
The non-obvious choices might be explained by you having a backstory in BVP, and those sigils of power on your tomb, which were meant to give you your memory back. So when you see a broken arrow something in your princely upbringing might make you think that you need to take it, as it's an important thing. Therefore the option is there in the book.
As for the Chang whistle, there are many cultures that have had a whirring whistle rather than a blown one.
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,677
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Apr 27, 2015 0:51:59 GMT
the gameplay throughout the book is largely trial and error for the most part, and would normally take much away from the book if not for the fact that BVP has THE BEST storyline in a gamebook ever!
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Post by vastariner on May 2, 2015 16:33:08 GMT
The trial and error thing suits the book. If you don't know who you are, you're going to blunder through stochastically anyway. Other than maybe the odd primeval urge to follow a certain path prompted by the sort of stimuli that bring those spells back to your mind.
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vagsancho
Knight
Posts: 809
Favourite Gamebook Series: CRYPT OF THE SORCERER
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Post by vagsancho on Jul 23, 2015 14:23:19 GMT
Not one of my favourite FF books. So much worse than the fantastic Slaves of the Abyss (same author i think).
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Post by hynreck on Jul 23, 2015 14:47:05 GMT
It would be nice of you to elaborate. There must be a reason why it is so much worse... and would you say it is still a bad book compared to other Fighting Fantasy's? Or only versus Slave of the Abyss?
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