5) City of Thieves

[thealmightymudworm]

Masterchief:
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Do you love this book so much you tuck it under the covers at night? Did you hate it so badly you used it as loo-roll? Let the world know!
~MC~

~ Vae Victis! ~

[thealmightymudworm]

gallicus:
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This is the one that I blame all *this* on! I was given this particular book (brand new 1987 dragon cover edition) for my birthday and read it. And read it. And read it. And it fell apart from being read so much.

To myself at that tender age it was this amazing city packed with stuff in every corner. Corners that needed exploring!
So, yes, I blame *that* book for where I am today, typing a post for a FF forum...

I had thought for the fanzine, that perhaps we have a column that has a different writer each issue, writing about how they became a FF fan. Thoughts?


(328) Despite your best efforts, you find yourself decaying in front of a computer screen. Your adventure ends here.

[thealmightymudworm]

Masterchief:
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The Editor (Alex B) said:

I had thought for the fanzine, that perhaps we have a column that has a different writer each issue, writing about how they became a FF fan. Thoughts?

I think that's a great idea! Hence I will keep my FF history secret for now just in case.
Maybe we could include a photo of each persons collection, if they wish to? I know I'd like to share mine

~ Vae Victis! ~

[thealmightymudworm]

sylas:
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Let me guess: you're gonna be dressed up as Masterchief.

Two Words

[thealmightymudworm]

Masterchief:
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No, a photo of my collection, not of me

~ Vae Victis! ~

[thealmightymudworm]

hynreck:
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You could still be dressed up as Masterchief in front of your collection...

Speak in extremes, it will save you time.

[thealmightymudworm]

greenspine:
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City of Thieves was the first FF book I owned (but not the first I played - that was a friend's copy of TWoFM). I remember playing it for the first time in the home of some friends of my parents, who were child-sitting my sisters and me. I missed getting the black pearls and tattoo, and thus failed in a non-lethal manner.

My dad attempted it during a family trip to visit his parents. He wouldn't pay the hidden bowmen, got hit by 5 arrows, and didn't have the STAMINA to survive such an attack.

[thealmightymudworm]

hynreck:
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Those stories are great. City of Thieves was also one of my first FF books, though quite frankly I'm having a hard time remembering which one I really did have first... I think it was Island of the Lizard King.

Well, in any case, City of Thieves was one of the first (in french, La cité des voleurs, and I just realized while flipping through the old book again that it is missing the last page, section 400! Now that's a bummer, I'm never gonna find that page again...) and I remember thoroughly enjoying it when I was young.

Now I've revisited the original in English and my perspective might have shifted a bit, but overall, I'd say the book is still great.
First thing: Classical illustrations from the magnificent Iain McCaig. Not quite as iconic as Deathtrap Dungeon, but any illustrations from that guy still beats the crap out of a lot of artists out there. Of course, the original cover by McCaig is still the best. Now, I really enjoy most of Martin Mckenna's work, but that new cover for Wizard sucks. The details are amazing and the map of Port Blacksand on the table is a very nice touch, but come on. The setting is appropriate, reprensenting one of the many shady place you could find yourself in Blacksand, but those thugs are ridiculous. They don't look menacing. They look like buffoons. Especially the little green guy. Did he escapes from the same planet Gazoo came from? Really. It feels like you could just club them to death with a bar stool while drinking your beer... Just gimme a creepy illustration of Zanbar Bone already.

Also, story-wise, this is an improvement, a step in the right direction. Finally we start getting better background and some more development from the supporting players. It still sparse in some instance and rather straight to the point, but still there's a nice atmosphere to the book and perhaps more importantly, a nice cohesion. Something that was lacking in The Forest of Doom, Livingstone's previous effort.

Being in the city is a rather enjoyable adventure, with plenty of original setting to see and experience and plenty of choices, even though the story is plague, mostly in it's first half, by odd choices while lacking the proper explanation or motivation. My main complaint would mostly be, why would I want to go shopping or do this and that when, clearly, my main goal is to find Nicodemus? I'm not in the city shopping, I'm here to find a wizard. If anything, I should be asking for direction and trying to get there as fast as I can. But whatever. It's still enjoyable.

Livingstone shows his mean streak out of the city. Once you're en route to Zanbar Bone's tower, the game becomes ruthless. Forced encounters with dangerous enemies. Check. Plenty of ways to get an instant death. Check. Plus - oh come on now! - two chances out of three to fail right at the end? Piss off!
Thank you for nothing, Nicodemus.
Still, I have fond memories of City of Thieves, and find that it is still enjoyable today.


Speak in extremes, it will save you time.

[thealmightymudworm]

Masterchief:
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I think it's a good adventure and one I really enjoy. And yes - The original cover is awesome, and one that might actually work in the tiny space left for cover art on the new Wizard re-prints. I guess we're going to end up with that thief from the Wizard series one cover though

I find this book satisfying in the same way that I find Deathtrap Dungeon satisfying - if you get things wrong or miss bits here and there on your first run through and it all ends horribly, I feel compelled to dive straight back in and try it again, armed with the knowledge of your previous trip. I suppose you could argue the same about any FF adventure, but there's something about these early Livingstone classics - the settings, the pacing, the exploration - that really hold my attention and make me want to try again immediately with a freshly rolled character. It just has that X Factor that makes it feel good to play.

~ Vae Victis! ~

[thealmightymudworm]

hynreck:
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Yes, I think it's safe to call it a classic.


Speak in extremes, it will save you time.

[thealmightymudworm]

vastariner:
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Introduction to CoT if I were the hero:

"Owen, you call your electorate cowards for not trying to stop your precious Mirelle entering a society marriage with the famous Bones.  Well, what's stopping you from going to rescue her?  I'm not getting a chav tattoo for the sake of some moistened bint who probably prances around with a lyre and wouldn't pee on me if I were attacked by a Fire Imp.  One stupid poxy village and one silly airhead is not worth risking my neck over, frankly."

And if you emerge from the city with but two ingredients, why not be allowed to take a punt on what you have?  After all, Nicodemus' suggestion that you try hair/lotus, lotus/pearl or pearl/hair is REALLY helpful, after all I was going to try lotus/hair until I got that note.  (Surely you have enough material to make all three anyway?)

[thealmightymudworm]

greenspine:
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It would have been fairer to allow for the creation of at least two compounds, and a Test your Luck to have time for a second try if you pick wrongly the first time.

[thealmightymudworm]

hynreck:
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Fair was already slipping from Livingstone's vocabulary at the time.


Speak in extremes, it will save you time.

[thealmightymudworm]

schlendrian:
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I always find it quite striking that no one - not the mayor, not Bone, neither YOU- even thinks about asking the girl wether she maybe wants the marriage or at least would care to meet Zanbar. 


Well, guess it's like in WoFM: That guy looks evil, so he must be a villain and should be killed, right?

Nevertheless, I like this book a lot. It really has atmosphere.

[thealmightymudworm]

meneldur:
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*refrains from making an obvious joke with "bone"*

[thealmightymudworm]

khaxzan:
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Why would Zanbar want to marry anyways? He's got a lot going for him; he should think about selling his right to theatrical plays. He's got such talent.


The more beautiful and pure FF is – the more satisfying it is to corrupt it.

[thealmightymudworm]

oakdweller:
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Despite the huge Livingstonian shopping list of items required... Despite quite a lot of samey "investigate this building or move on" options... Despite some pretty tough and unavoidable fights towards the end... Despite... Well, City of Thieves manages to transcend its limitations effortlessly. The houses, taverns and alleyways of Port Blacksand are such fun to explore that forgiving the obvious flaws seems the least I can do.

When asked by the children in my class about which book is the best to buy first I cite Forest of Doom, Deathtrap Dungeon or this one. It's so easy for a first-timer to jump into and explore, with no special rules to worry about and a clear objective.

The city setting allows Ian Livingstone to mould his encounters into something more believable, something that is part of a continuous world, rather than the piecemeal Darkwood Forest. The pirate ship is small but fun (my class howled with laughter when they chose to wait for the captain to get into his bath). The little old ladies in their house of toys is really unsettling. The tavern offers no less than five different action choices, which is quite in depth coverage for a single location in a book of this era. The shifty Man-Orc herbalist is simply done, but effective in that you are at least given the option to get your own back on him. (I love the detail in the herbalist shop illustration too. Wouldn't you just love the opportunity to take a closer look at the contents of the bottles in that rack? Or peer into the smeared glass of the display counter?) There's more here to draw you into situations than there was in Forest of Doom; first time round I was incredibly curious to see what was inside each house. (I used to pester my sister into playing FF with me from time to time. To my surprise she got an immense kick out of City of Thieves and she still refers to it every now and then after so many years. Why? "Because you can go shopping!" Hmm, nothing like playing up to gender stereotypes is there?)

Something else which is developed more in City of Thieves is that there are more character interaction options given (as opposed to directional, item-related or combat-related) such as those I've just mentioned with the herbalist, the tavern locals and of course the guard on the very first paragraph. The likes of Warlock had a few moments here and there like these (such as the werewolf guy), but I feel that City of Thieves moves a bit further into this territory. A sign of things to come.

Aside from the herbalist shop, other illustrations that I love in this book would have to include the hag with her marvellously ugly shadow cast on the sewer wall; Nicodemus, complete with that zany border; the alarming Serpent Queen and the madman on paragraph 17, which I have always found quite scary, but I've never been too sure why.

All in all, City of Thieves just about has the edge over Deathtrap Dungeon for me as Livingstone's finest hour.

[thealmightymudworm]

Craze_b0i:
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I recently got hold of this for the first time, was keen to read it if only because it was one of the earliest books and thus a key part of FF folklore.
I was actually fairly impressed. For one thing the setting successfully delivers on its title. Port Blacksand oozes atmosphere and grittyness. This is helped by the absolutely superb illustration work, I loved all the small details in the background of the illustrations that helped enrich the setting. The plot has its moments of sillyness (unicorn tattoo anyone?) but despite these the storyline does more or less hold together. Of all the Ian Livingstone books this one of the few good ones, up there with Deathtrap Dungeon.

My FF reviews: z3.invisionfree.com/Orc__Goblin_Warpath/index.php?showtopic=29374

[thealmightymudworm]

khaxzan:
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Can I ask? Why is the title missing on the City of Thieves book?


The more beautiful and pure FF is – the more satisfying it is to corrupt it.

[thealmightymudworm]

vagsancho:
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City of Thieves is absolutely magik. Number one to me. I can feel the place more than all the others. The wizard Nicodemus is by far the most fantastic FF wizard of all. The tower is well hidden in a place noone knows where. There is only one problem... Zanbar Bone should be so much stronger and powerful...


Razaak's apprentice

[thealmightymudworm]

green_zigzag:
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Ah... City of Thieves.

My first ever FF book (back in 1983).  It is also still my favourite, very atmospheric, I love the way Port Blacksand really does feel like a living, breathing city.

Very intricately written with great descriptive text and wonderful illustrations.

It's a bit tough once you get out of the city and on the way to Zanbar's tower, but the rest of the book more than makes up for that.


All your bases are belong to us!

[sylas]

This is more like it. You’ll be hard pressed finding a more richly detailed city, crammed with such vile inhabitants, yet carrying that wonderfully despicable charm. Welcome to Blacksand, a city so corrupt that anyone can get away with just about anything. Despite this, there is in nearby Silverton an even nastier villain who one day decides he wants to settle down with some rich lass he’s never met because, well it’s something to do I guess. Having set his undead eyes on the mayor’s daughter, it seems he’ll stop at nothing to claim her, including tearing everyone in town to little pieces with his monstrous hounds should he be denied his prize. So with no one capable of preventing such a disaster, you are hired to confront the Night Prince before he gets his wedding started. But even you need help, magical help in Blacksand in the form of the wizard Nicodemus. Thus you must go about exploring the City of Thieves for the ingredients required for a mixture of Nightnurse to put the Night Prince to sleep for good. And everyone knows that, you can only give magical sleep to those who don’t have eyelids.

It sounds like a ludicrously simple concept – big evil bad guy terrorizes town; you are hired to deal with said bad guy and save the maiden. Usually an adventure can be that simple. But you have to go through Blacksand to achieve it which changes things. No one takes a casual stroll through the City of Thieves and gets away with it. If you don’t get robbed of your belongings, you’re likely to end up being found in a ditch somewhere or worse. Everyone and everything you encounter is fantastically introduced to you in detail, from Troll sentries to fire-breathing merchants. All the inhabitants have great depth of character that even in the briefest of moments that you meet them, you feel that each is painted in the most vibrant of colours and really come to life in your imaginations.

This is easily one of Ian Livingstone’s best adventures: excellent storytelling, fun where it is needed, creepy where it is not, good range of choices, and brilliant artwork from Iain Mccaig. Strangely enough, the gameplay is also fairly balanced with only one tough fight you have to endure and makes me wish Mr Livingstone stuck with having more forgiving dice-rolling challenges. But you also get a sense that the author has put his heart and soul into creating a delightful mix of disagreeable characters and woven them all seamlessly into one location. And since the city is in a state of ‘everything is so bad it can’t get worse’ it’s also believable that these individuals can live their daily lives in harmony with one another, using their cunning to run a business and their wits to stay alive. Sure the final part still leaves more to be desired as it’s essentially a short dungeon crawl up a tower, but it takes little away from a most enjoyable romp through a lively city.

There’s a reason why the City of Thieves gets revisited time and again. In short, it’s because we all love Port Blacksand!

8/10

[vagsancho]

City of Thieves is Amazing. Magik! Magical Atmosphere. I feel it in all my being. Port Blacksand is amazing. The Tower of Zanbar Bone is amazing! An the absolutely magic and incredibly fascinating Nicodemus. Amazing Book. One of the 3 most amazing Masterpieces of Livingstone, with Deathtrap Dungeon and Crypt of the Sorcerer.

[hynreck]

But where's Trial of the Champions, your second favourite from Livingstone??

[nicodemus]

I understand you like those books from Ian Livingstone. They are actually pretty good. But I found it weird a person like you doesn't mention Steve Jackson's creations: House of Hell, Creature of Havoc or Sorcery! (series). These are absolute masterpieces!

[sylas]

To be honest I found Steve's Adventures ( House Of Hell, creature of havoc)a little hard to navigate which kind of takes away from getting involved in the adventure. It's not that his stories are bad it's just that I'd rather know where I'm going some of the time.

[hynreck]

Nicodemus: If that's the only thing you find weird about vagsancho consider yourself lucky.

[kieran]

To be honest I found Steve's Adventures ( House Of Hell, creature of havoc)a little hard to navigate which kind of takes away from getting involved in the adventure. It's not that his stories are bad it's just that I'd rather know where I'm going some of the time.

Personally I think it adds to the surreal atmosphere especially with House of Hell. These endless, strangely labelled rooms, many with secret passages etc. Though certainly Ian's dungeons seem a lot more logically designed.

I was playing Captives of Kaag the other day and it struck me that the fortress must be roughly the size of New York.

[nicodemus]

Aug 5, 2015 14:34:17 GMT sylas said:

To be honest I found Steve's Adventures ( House Of Hell, creature of havoc)a little hard to navigate which kind of takes away from getting involved in the adventure. It's not that his stories are bad it's just that I'd rather know where I'm going some of the time.

Well, I don't mind not knowing where I'm going... I think that's the principle of adventure. And I must differ when you say it takes you away from getting involved. I do get involved in Jackson's adventures, his environments are superb, his writing is amazing, rich descriptions, diversity in characters, sometimes there's even plot twists. I think with Steve's books you sort of get out of your comfort zone. We feel emerged and envolved in his narrative in a particular way (but that's great, I think). With Ian, it's different, you actually know where you're going, because he created a style in which we feel confortable, sometimes (and emphasize the "sometimes") he can be a little predictable. I don't mind that, really. I admit that he has created a great background history with intricate stories in Allansia, and that he his the master of this fantasy World (for me Deathtrap Dungeon and City of Thieves are 2 of my 5 favs), but I would like to see him take some risks, explore new backgrounds. I know, Blood of the Zombies... right? But I didn't enjoy it that much.

[nicodemus]

Aug 5, 2015 14:37:38 GMT hynreck said:

Nicodemus: If that's the only thing you find weird about vagsancho consider yourself lucky.

ahaha! yeah, I guess I'm knowing it now.