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Post by thealmightymudworm on Feb 23, 2019 16:54:18 GMT
Did he ever mention such in an interview? I have to believe some fan asked him this in the last 34 years! If not does anyone have his email? I will ask him! lol. He's on Twitter, you could tweet him. (He's not exactly prolific on there though. By my calculations he tweets once every 23 days on average – about 1 tweet for every 48 Ian Livingstone tweets!)
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Post by philsadler on Feb 23, 2019 19:04:57 GMT
Of course it's an Attack Strength bonus, what on earth else would it be? For God's sake it's 6 points. I can't believe we are still questioning this after all these years. Steve made a mistake, he forgot to say Attack Strength and said Skill instead. It wasn't his first or last mistake either.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,457
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Feb 24, 2019 8:48:49 GMT
Im not sure I agree about the needing Fear 9 although Im willing to have my mind changed. On my attempt at the password I hadn't met Shekou so used process of elimination on the four options and was correct. (I picked up on the fact that Murder was an anagram for Drumer). I then took the same route every time to get the Kris Knife because obviously it worked and thus avoided the trap door business. Is this then cheating? Personally I would consider this cheating. Although you the reader can choose between 4 options, your character would have millions of possible options to choose between and so there would be no chance of choosing 'murder' without the clue from Shekou. There are also clues in the book that would make you think one of the other options is the password, had you not met Shekou.
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Post by a moderator on Feb 24, 2019 17:43:24 GMT
On my attempt at the password I hadn't met Shekou so used process of elimination on the four options and was correct. (I picked up on the fact that Murder was an anagram for Drumer). I regularly have to change the password for logging on to my computer at Hull Minster Parish Centre, where I work. If you'd tried to access my computer last year, several password changes ago, which of the following would you have tried using? - elbillugosmi
- qazjaxg465blindor$
- lintHatersrushPrinCeMel
- 1mpudentPeas@nt
It's not (c), even though that is an anagram of the name of the building. And while I did once claim to use (a) as a password, that's not right either.
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Post by dragonwarrior8 on Feb 24, 2019 19:40:33 GMT
Thanks guys your points make sense and have convinced me. I have it totally mapped out of course so shouldn't take more than a few attempts (hopefully) to beat it fairly so I can cross it off my list. This also means that you can lose the book VERY early on and not even know it. If you make the wrong choice at the dinner you wont get to fight Shekou and he wont recognize you later.
My first inclination was kind of that's what a lot of the books come down to basically, you are confronted with options, you try one, if it doesn't work you have to come back and try another one. So really, the player has information gleaned from previous playthroughs that the character in the book couldn't possibly have. I treated the password section the same as any other choice (turn left, right , go straight or which combo of ingredients should you use etc). I mean, if you get to that section without the info from Shekou would many readers just not even guess and end their adventure there? However, your points make more sense from a role playing perspective and have indeed changed my line of thinking on it.
As an afterthought, taken to an extreme I guess from a speed-run perspective you could just ignore Mordana once you have her info and make a beeline for the stairs on subsequent playthroughs. This would make no sense from a role-playing perspective but I wonder if many people played it that way.
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Post by johnbrawn1972 on Feb 24, 2019 22:16:41 GMT
Thanks guys your points make sense and have convinced me. I have it totally mapped out of course so shouldn't take more than a few attempts (hopefully) to beat it fairly so I can cross it off my list. This also means that you can lose the book VERY early on and not even know it. If you make the wrong choice at the dinner you wont get to fight Shekou and he wont recognize you later. My first inclination was kind of that's what a lot of the books come down to basically, you are confronted with options, you try one, if it doesn't work you have to come back and try another one. So really, the player has information gleaned from previous playthroughs that the character in the book couldn't possibly have. I treated the password section the same as any other choice (turn left, right , go straight or which combo of ingredients should you use etc). I mean, if you get to that section without the info from Shekou would many readers just not even guess and end their adventure there? However, your points make more sense from a role playing perspective and have indeed changed my line of thinking on it. As an afterthought, taken to an extreme I guess from a speed-run perspective you could just ignore Mordana once you have her info and make a beeline for the stairs on subsequent playthroughs. This would make no sense from a role-playing perspective but I wonder if many people played it that way. The logic you suggest is to read Citadel of Chaos and play the book, possibly 399 times, until on the 400th occasion you reach the correct solution thereby rendering entering the library completely superfluous. This seems to conflate ones own knowledge and the blank slate of your avatar into exactly the same thing. The 'golden rule' is a solution for a gamebook greenhorn who has no prior experience.
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Post by dragonwarrior8 on Feb 25, 2019 0:17:46 GMT
Yes I agree that from a story standpoint that wouldn't make much sense (although I guess you could argue after getting that far that the hero might have made a guess at the combination and had a small chance of being correct) and not very realistic from a game standpoint for someone to do that as actually obtaining the combination would be far easier and quicker. However, on the surface having only the four options given for the password initially makes it SEEM (to me it did anyway) like trial and error is a viable approach. Since then after thinking about it more kieran and greenspine have convinced me otherwise though.
Unless I misunderstood what you were saying Im also not sure how in general you DONT conflate ones own knowledge with that of the avatar though. For instance, after many attempts at this book, you have a complete or almost complete map of the house showing its layout, what is in each room, which liquids you can safely drink etc. which you then use for subsequent attempts. The avatar certainly wouldn't have this. If you didn't combine your knowledge with the avatars youd have the same % chance of success on attempt #30 of a book as you did on attempt #1.
Please keep in mind Im not disagreeing with you necessarily I am just fascinated by gamebook design (and its evolution) and looking at it from different angles and I thank everyone for the discussion.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,457
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Feb 25, 2019 12:38:28 GMT
However, on the surface having only the four options given for the password initially makes it SEEM (to me it did anyway) like trial and error is a viable approach. Bad design on Jackson's part really - I don't think he even gives an option to choose none of the above so if a reader stumbles on that part without knowing the password, they are forced to make a guess. And they could well guess right, despite it being completely unrealistic. He probably should have used the A=1, B=2 formula instead, but to be fair that was never used in any of the books before Sword of the Samurai if I recall correctly. All that said, doesn't one of the sci fi books (Rings of Kether I think?) ask you to choose a password between some seemingly random options and there's no clue whatsoever what the correct answer would be?
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Post by johnbrawn1972 on Feb 25, 2019 13:32:52 GMT
Yes I agree that from a story standpoint that wouldn't make much sense (although I guess you could argue after getting that far that the hero might have made a guess at the combination and had a small chance of being correct) and not very realistic from a game standpoint for someone to do that as actually obtaining the combination would be far easier and quicker. However, on the surface having only the four options given for the password initially makes it SEEM (to me it did anyway) like trial and error is a viable approach. Since then after thinking about it more kieran and greenspine have convinced me otherwise though. Unless I misunderstood what you were saying Im also not sure how in general you DONT conflate ones own knowledge with that of the avatar though. For instance, after many attempts at this book, you have a complete or almost complete map of the house showing its layout, what is in each room, which liquids you can safely drink etc. which you then use for subsequent attempts. The avatar certainly wouldn't have this. If you didn't combine your knowledge with the avatars youd have the same % chance of success on attempt #30 of a book as you did on attempt #1. Please keep in mind Im not disagreeing with you necessarily I am just fascinated by gamebook design (and its evolution) and looking at it from different angles and I thank everyone for the discussion. The idea is a greenhorn should be able to play your system and there should be no non-sequiteurs within the gamebook logic.
Opening a door or walking left at a junction requires no special knowledge within the gamebook other than being able to read.
A greenhorn should feel aggrieved if you mysteriously tell them to turn to 321 then 169 or mysteriously tell them the combination lock number.
There might be internal inconsistencies in a gamebook where the logic seem awry but as we all know, more or less, we follow the logic the best we can.
It is even more obvious in a computer game where you learn the logic step by step but have to follow the same logical system every time.
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Post by deadshadowrunner on Feb 25, 2019 15:24:35 GMT
He probably should have used the A=1, B=2 formula instead, but to be fair that was never used in any of the books before Sword of the Samurai if I recall correctly. I think there is a somewhat valid reason for not using the A=1, B=2 formula in this case, which is that the password is never explicitly revealed to the player from the clues given. It wouldn't make sense if after receiving the clue, someone guessed the password to be "Uerrmd" and still have it be accepted.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,457
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Feb 25, 2019 16:05:34 GMT
He probably should have used the A=1, B=2 formula instead, but to be fair that was never used in any of the books before Sword of the Samurai if I recall correctly. I think there is a somewhat valid reason for not using the A=1, B=2 formula in this case, which is that the password is never explicitly revealed to the player from the clues given. It wouldn't make sense if after receiving the clue, someone guessed the password to be "Uerrmd" and still have it be accepted. Yes fair point. An alternative would be to get rid of the "mixed up letters" element and Shekou just tell you the password, but that would be a bit less fun.
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Post by philsadler on Feb 25, 2019 17:42:18 GMT
He probably should have used the A=1, B=2 formula instead, but to be fair that was never used in any of the books before Sword of the Samurai if I recall correctly. I think there is a somewhat valid reason for not using the A=1, B=2 formula in this case, which is that the password is never explicitly revealed to the player from the clues given. It wouldn't make sense if after receiving the clue, someone guessed the password to be "Uerrmd" and still have it be accepted.
This is interesting! How should Steve have gone about it then? I say this because I fell into this trap myself until Andy from Fighting Fantasy Project pointed it out.
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Post by dragonwarrior8 on Feb 25, 2019 23:45:24 GMT
I think there is a somewhat valid reason for not using the A=1, B=2 formula in this case, which is that the password is never explicitly revealed to the player from the clues given. It wouldn't make sense if after receiving the clue, someone guessed the password to be "Uerrmd" and still have it be accepted.
This is interesting! How should Steve have gone about it then? I say this because I fell into this trap myself until Andy from Fighting Fantasy Project pointed it out.
Phew thanks for saying that Phil! I was starting to think I was the only one! I find this very interesting also. I like Kieran's idea. Im not really sure what the mixed-up letters part really added to the proceedings? If you make it to Shekou there, then you know its a jumble of Drumer so Murder is the only option. In which case you arent losing anything from just having him tell you. I guess from a narrative perspective it reinforces that he isn't very bright. It also feels like it might be Steve wanting to hammer home how clever he was by having Drumer as an anagram for Murder in case anyone hadn't picked up on it already. lol. I think another hidden reference clue might have worked here as he obviously loves those but would that have been one too many? Especially one right after the other?
On a different note, I absolutey love the prologue to this book. What a great opening! Having said that, there was one line that really stuck out to me and I apologize in advance if this was discussed elsewhere but its the line "And you don't notice a fact that might have turned you back anyway: there is no telephone line going to the house". Wait...what? You don't notice a fact? lol I read that a couple of times over on my first playthrough and I think my head almost exploded.
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Post by a moderator on Feb 26, 2019 1:07:38 GMT
Steve didn't feel the need to show off that 'Pravemi' was also an anagram.
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Post by johnbrawn1972 on Feb 26, 2019 16:21:16 GMT
Steve didn't feel the need to show off that 'Pravemi' was also an anagram. That is absolutely brilliant.
I had never noticed even though I bought the book in 1984.
This makes the standard route much more plausible though it has been interesting to countenance(pun intended) an alternative route.
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Post by linflas on Feb 27, 2019 9:58:00 GMT
Obviously, playing with anagrams is Steve's hobby in HoH. That has not been correctly translated in my language, and the book was totally impossible to complete. Count name has been changed to "Brume" but the password was correctly translated to "Meurtre"...
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Post by vastariner on Mar 9, 2019 8:04:34 GMT
Obviously, playing with anagrams is Steve's hobby in HoH. That has not been correctly translated in my language, and the book was totally impossible to complete. Count name has been changed to "Brume" but the password was correctly translated to "Meurtre"... And they could so easily have had the house name as Tremeur...
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vagsancho
Knight
Posts: 809
Favourite Gamebook Series: CRYPT OF THE SORCERER
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Post by vagsancho on Apr 25, 2019 17:02:33 GMT
odo_ital: _________________________________________ This is my all time favourite book of the FF series. This is also my favourite FF book of all time. I think it is even better than the amazing Razaak's Crypt of the Sorcerer.
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Post by a moderator on Apr 25, 2019 17:43:48 GMT
the amazing Razaak's Crypt of the Sorcerer. Are you conflating author and villain, or is 'The Amazing Razaak' Ian Livingstone's preferred alias when moonlighting as a DJ/professional wrestler/conjurer?
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vagsancho
Knight
Posts: 809
Favourite Gamebook Series: CRYPT OF THE SORCERER
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Post by vagsancho on Apr 25, 2019 18:53:43 GMT
Are you conflating author and villain, or is 'The Amazing Razaak' Ian livingstone There is no Ian livingstone in Crypt of the Sorcerer. The author has disappeared behind that Masterpiece. [/quote]
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vagsancho
Knight
Posts: 809
Favourite Gamebook Series: CRYPT OF THE SORCERER
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Post by vagsancho on Apr 26, 2019 18:28:40 GMT
A QUESTION. THIS QUESTION IS NOT FOR STEVE JACKSON BECAUSE I THINK HE IS NOT A KNOWNER OF AN ANSWER. I THINK POSSIBLY A READER OF THIS BOOK MAY BE. THE TITLE OF THIS BOOK - THE NAME OF THE BEDROOMS OF THIS BOOK - THE STRANGE SENSE OF LEADERSHIP THAT EXISTS IN THIS BOOK - THE FIXED, PENETRATING, MALICIOUS AND WISE LOOK OF THE HELL DEMON. THE THOUGHT CAME TO MY MIND, WOULD THE HELL DEMON BE THE TRUE SATAN, THE FALLEN ANGEL, LUCIFER, "SATANAS" ??
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Post by johnbrawn1972 on Apr 26, 2019 20:11:51 GMT
A QUESTION. THIS QUESTION IS NOT FOR STEVE JACKSON BECAUSE I THINK HE IS NOT A KNOWNER OF AN ANSWER. I THINK POSSIBLY A READER OF THIS BOOK MAY BE. THE TITLE OF THIS BOOK - THE NAME OF THE BEDROOMS OF THIS BOOK - THE STRANGE SENSE OF LEADERSHIP THAT EXISTS IN THIS BOOK - THE FIXED, PENETRATING, MALICIOUS AND WISE LOOK OF THE HELL DEMON. THE THOUGHT CAME TO MY MIND, WOULD THE HELL DEMON BE THE TRUE SATAN, THE FALLEN ANGEL, LUCIFER, "SATANAS" ?? No.
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Post by marblefigure on Apr 27, 2019 13:02:54 GMT
It's a shame that none of Fighting Fantasy was playtested after Forest of Doom. House of Hell could have been perfect if the small number of errors were corrected. And they so easily could have been. It still baffles me how the Fighting Fantasy architects could possibly forget their own rules about skill versus attack strength! Seriously, how can you forget something like that? And we all know, it's impossible to complete the book with a Fear tolerance of 7 or 8, but this would have been a very easy detail to correct as well.
So this was a great book, marred by the laziness/ indifference of whoever should have been editing.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,457
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Sept 14, 2020 20:10:59 GMT
Not sure if there was some mix-up in the briefing or he was simply cutting corners, but has anyone else noticed Vlado Krizan draws Lord Kelnor and the vampire as the same person?
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Post by linflas on Sept 14, 2020 20:53:35 GMT
Actually, he's only able to draw the same and unique face for all characters
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Sept 15, 2020 8:34:10 GMT
Not sure if there was some mix-up in the briefing or he was simply cutting corners, but has anyone else noticed Vlado Krizan draws Lord Kelnor and the vampire as the same person? Dear oh dear. I've not seen this because I'm not interested in the reprints at all. But this is the sort of thing I'm talking about. Who in the publishing company signed off on that? Are they even looking at what they are putting out? I have little nice to say about an artist who does that and the system which lets him get away with it. And linflas, your comment there made me laugh aloud. Cheers!
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,457
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Sept 15, 2020 9:28:29 GMT
I have little nice to say about an artist who does that and the system which lets him get away with it. Well, as I said, it could have been an honest mistake on his part - he might have thought they were meant to be the same character. But yes, an editor should have caught that. Krizan's art in general has grown on me a bit (apart from Appointment with FEAR which is terrible - I don't think he was comfortable with the comic book style). Robert Ball is definitely the better of the two Scholastic artists but sometimes Krizan can be pretty decent. The oddest thing though is he often copies the original pictures albeit in his own style - right down to copying awkward poses and the like. It's a fairly strange approach. Ball doesn't do that, he seems to just do his own interpretation of the text. His Red Eyes for instance look nothing like John Blanche's but they certainly match Steve's description just as well.
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Blackheart
Squire
Formerly known as Symm. Razaak raised me from the dead.
Posts: 42
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by Blackheart on Sept 22, 2020 9:07:34 GMT
Not sure if there was some mix-up in the briefing or he was simply cutting corners, but has anyone else noticed Vlado Krizan draws Lord Kelnor and the vampire as the same person?
Now why would they possibly change the interior art in that masterpiece?! The first thing that comes to mind is torture! Never before have my eyes been tormented to that extent!
Have Lord Varek Azzur take care of this bungler! Chop off Vlado Krizan's hands and feed them to the carrion birds! Put the editor in shackles and put him in the pillory on Market Square! Revenge for Tim Sell!
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vagsancho
Knight
Posts: 809
Favourite Gamebook Series: CRYPT OF THE SORCERER
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Post by vagsancho on Nov 10, 2020 18:46:15 GMT
HOUSE OF HELL - THE BEST OF THE BEST FF books. The only one i identify myself with. 10 out of 10. In my personal opinion, truely the only one in the genre of Horror.
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tom
Squire
Posts: 23
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Post by tom on Mar 25, 2021 22:54:03 GMT
I’ve just completed this. Re ambiguities the +6 Skill bonus is so obviously meant to be Attack Strength I have no problems adding 6 to your starting skill. To complete the book fairly I think you have to have the conversation with Shekou to get the password. The real question is what constitutes a meeting with Shekou. I had relatively low stats and wanted to avoid fighting Shekou so saw him bring me a glass of water, drank it and lost consciousness. When I met Shekou later I did recognise him as the text says from bringing me the water so I didn’t consider this cheating. Similarly if you close the door locking him in you would also recognise him, though would either of those encounters mean he vaguely remembers your face as he later says? It’s very ambiguous.
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